eyeswideshut Posted May 13, 2006 Posted May 13, 2006 this is how it goes. Ever since I began posting, after April 25th, (the second time we got together after he told me he was going to work things out w/W) he has followed this routine... writes a few emails during the week (when his wife is gone, she is gone every night for dance class) and I write back, about twice a week. Phones me on the odd week, when he misses me, and tells me all this stuff about missing me and how badly he wants to see me. During weekends, when they have family things, I don't hear a peep. (except when she is gone) SHe's been practicing her dance regularly now, since she is off to a competition in June. (I'm sure he thinks we will be spending 3 blissful weeks together because he asked me what I was doing in June, and could he come over.) He tells me, they've been going to counseling but it's really hard because she is never home, which at the same time makes him happy because he says it's difficult being with her. I told him this is normal, since they've been "broken up" for a year even though they were living together, and she probably needs to dance to relieve stress, and tension. And that it can't be all rosy as he would like it to be, because maybe she doesn't trust him 100%. (with reason, in Februarty he wanted her out of his place and within a week he wanted to work on the M) He tells me that this week she's slept on the couch a few times because they keep fighting. I'm really confused. sometimes I'm okay, I think, well, he's probably not for me because he can actually live without me for days and days. I'm not used to this sort of behavior. My ex fiancee wanted to spend every waking second that he wasnt' at work to be with me. So I find it odd that only 9 months into this, he keep saying he misses me, yet, he's trying not to see me Does it matter what I do at this point? I can't do the NC thing because I want him to know I'm fine with being friends since I am not even sure if I want him as a partner eventually. Is it wrong to pursue a friendship even though I know it's wrong but I am doing it so he can make an informed decision about whether or not I am the right woman for him. Is it alright to test the grounds for my own curiosity of whether or not we are right for one another? For myself, I keep believing that if I remain his friend suring this time, I will maybe stumble upon some fault or characteristic that might get on my nerver, therefore, it woudl be easier to leave him. Is it just me, or is my MM just the most absolutely perfect man for me. Because the more I get to know him, the more I realize how incredible his qualities are. If I walk away, I will feel really badly because I've known him all my ife and I always feel as though the moments we spent together (in these past nine months were he was grieving his brother and I was grieving my ex-fiancee) were so special, I can't just desert him now, just because I can't have him. Help! I''m in a crisis, and I just realized there is no finger food in my pantry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
whichwayisup Posted May 13, 2006 Posted May 13, 2006 He tells me that this week she's slept on the couch a few times because they keep fighting. Sorry, this is abit odd to me...I'm not saying it isn't possible, but usually when couples fight, the man ends up on the couch. I've never heard of a woman saying she'll sleep on the couch...Just weird. It still all comes down to, if he really wanted to be with you, he would do everything possible to end the marriage and be with you. Seems he isn't and infact, he's trying to fix his marriage. Unfair to his wife seeing as he is still intouch with you and not really giving the marriage a fair chance to work. He isn't doing the legwork it takes to fix it because his focus is still divided. It's unfair to his wife, and unfair to you. If you love him, you have to let him go. You aren't sure you really want him as a partner, yet you can't desert him because you can't have him? Do you want to see him happy? If you really are a friend, a friend who you've known all your life, wish him the best, break up with him and back off. As much as it will hurt you, I think you know being friends with him is worse than not being friends. It leaves you filled with a hope that more than likely will never be. It's not right for you, nor his wife! Order a pizza, that should help.
Wicked Wanda Posted May 13, 2006 Posted May 13, 2006 I'm probably the worst person to give you advice... mine has been an off again on again affair with a MM for 20 years... If you've gone that long without being with him or seeing him, then continue. He's playing you just as much as mine played me. They're only in it for their own gratification and you are the least of their concerns. The only way you figure into it is if you satisfy them for the moment. (Wow! That was insightful on my part!) You owe him nothing, and you're only giving him hope when you answer his mail. Try to lessen the replies. Sorry, don't mean to come across as harsh but I'm dealing with my own garbage at the moment and so far, I hate everyone..... Change that to controlling, self-centered, egotistical, selfish married men!
stillafool Posted May 13, 2006 Posted May 13, 2006 I'm the wrong person also to give advice as I'm a MW who still loves a MM and in an EA I can't seem to shake off, but.... I definitely think he's confused but obviously wants to try to work things out with his W. The problem is you don't know what the W is going through that made her sleep on the sofa. She may be withholding sex from him and that might make him call and want to see you. I agree with Whichwayisup if he wanted to be with you he would. To show you his character why is he going to counseling and still in contact with you? There's more here than he's telling you. Don't let him use you. It's best to stop all contact with him if you can or it's just impossible to get over them. I know it's easier said than done because it kills me, but I have to accept it's the only way to get over this. I feel sometimes they continue to contact you just because they know it will keep you holding on and they still have control over you.
Seen_It_All Posted May 13, 2006 Posted May 13, 2006 Is it just me, or is my MM just the most absolutely perfect man for me. Because the more I get to know him, the more I realize how incredible his qualities are. With all due respect, what 'qualities' are you referring to? The fact that he continues to lie to his wife while carrying on the charade that he's trying to reconcile with her? That the minute her back is turned, he's acting like a 3 year old stealing cookies from the cookie jar? He's hardly giving their marriage 100% effort when he's sneaking and calling you the minute her back is turned. He's hardly giving their marriage 100% effort when he's sneakily making plans for 3 weeks from now when she walks out the door to go to her competition. No wonder she's sleeping on the couch and no wonder they're fighting. He's NOT making an honest effort. He's just wasting her time and continuing to be a lying, sneaking cheat. What is the POINT? Why does he continue to deceive her? What's he looking to GAIN from doing this? All I have to say is that if these are the "incredible qualities" you're talking about in your post, then yes, I guess you've found the perfect guy.
whichwayisup Posted May 13, 2006 Posted May 13, 2006 If only his wife knew what her husband was up to...I wonder if she would still want to make so much effort to fix the marriage. I mean, his words say one thing, yet his actions are completely different. I feel bad for his wife, and for you EWS. This MM of yours is having his cake and eating it too. Sure, maybe it's not coming off as malcious, or intention manipulation, but each of you are feeding his needs. And selfishly, he is giving himself to both of you. So unfair.
rossm Posted May 13, 2006 Posted May 13, 2006 Sorry, this is abit odd to me...I'm not saying it isn't possible, but usually when couples fight, the man ends up on the couch. I've never heard of a woman saying she'll sleep on the couch...Just weird. Actually, it's been about 50/50 with W and me. Maybe it's a function of who gets into bed first.
Author eyeswideshut Posted May 13, 2006 Author Posted May 13, 2006 WWIU, Yes, I feel badly for the wife.Thanks though for reminding me.... I was just reminiscing about the past few years, when he got married and while they were married. Since he's my brother's best friend, I was trying to recall some of the stuff my brother told me... The first was right before he was getting married...I went to visit my brother and he was saying, now everyone in our gang is either married or engaged, except for you... and he showed me a picture of my MM and his wife. I had to do a double take because she looks like me. So, I said: well, well, little John is getting married and he didn't even consult with me first! And another guy from the gang said: no one would consult with you because you'd just say don't get married. (i was breaking off my engagement at the time on the grounds of being afraid of marriage) and I told my brother: but she looks just like me! and another friend said: well, he couldn't have you, so he took your double. hahaha (we all laughed at this point, it was an ongoing joke that my brothers' friends were trying to pick me up all my life) flashback to a few years ago, my brother and "the gang" went to China Town. I am always "polite" with my brothers' friends, but John tells me that because I was always a few years older than them, they always got the feeling I was a bit aloof. Well at the supper, they were talking non-stop about John and the house he had bought with his wife. and they were saying, she wants children but he doesn't and now they're fighting all the time about everything. and my response was: see? marriage ruins everything. and the guys were asking me: I guess it's a girl thing to want children at 28 years old, right? Because we all find the idea pretty scary. and I was about 31, and I responded: well, I find the idea pretty scary too. The thing is, when I look back, the marriage should've never happened. He's not lying when he says they are constantly fighting. I remember his friends telling me this years ago. He's not lying when he says he doesn't want children with her. He told me however, his reasons for not wanting children with her, and said it was because he really loves children and because his parents divorced and it really marked him, he found that having children was an enormous responsability, and he couldn't have children if he didn't trust that he would stay in a relationship. The last time I saw him, I tried to scared him off (since I know this is his weak point) by saying: we have to stop sleeping together because if I get pregnant, I am keeping it, because I'm at the age where I really want children. and he said: it would be an honour if you carried my child. I actually fantasized about having your children. And then when we were both in the mirror brushing our teeth, he said: our children would really look amazing. My point is... I've known this guy all my life. I kind of know he had a minor crush on me for the longest time. I also know background info on his marriage. (its' not all that bad, they are good friends though, just without passion) but I do feel badly for the wife because everytime I put myself in her place I hate him so much for doing this to her. How could he deceive her so much? Why did he marry her? Why did he not tell her upfront that he didn't feel the same passion towards her? Why is he faking marriage counseling with her just to look like the "good guy who tried"? Even though I know he'd treat me like gold, just the thought of hurting this woman kills me. All my friends tell me: don't think of her, you don't know her! you've known him all your life! but I am a woman, and I can only put myself in the woman's position. Is he worth it? In the end? (I'm almost 100% sure he will leave her soon)
Jessie61 Posted May 14, 2006 Posted May 14, 2006 The thing is, when I look back, the marriage should've never happened. He's not lying when he says they are constantly fighting. I remember his friends telling me this years ago. He's not lying when he says he doesn't want children with her. He told me however, his reasons for not wanting children with her, and said it was because he really loves children and because his parents divorced and it really marked him, he found that having children was an enormous responsability, and he couldn't have children if he didn't trust that he would stay in a relationship. The last time I saw him, I tried to scared him off (since I know this is his weak point) by saying: we have to stop sleeping together because if I get pregnant, I am keeping it, because I'm at the age where I really want children. and he said: it would be an honour if you carried my child. I actually fantasized about having your children. And then when we were both in the mirror brushing our teeth, he said: our children would really look amazing. My point is... I've known this guy all my life. I kind of know he had a minor crush on me for the longest time. I also know background info on his marriage. (its' not all that bad, they are good friends though, just without passion) but I do feel badly for the wife because everytime I put myself in her place I hate him so much for doing this to her. How could he deceive her so much? Why did he marry her? Why did he not tell her upfront that he didn't feel the same passion towards her? Why is he faking marriage counseling with her just to look like the "good guy who tried"? EWS, I have read you entire post but I have only quoted parts of it. I can understand that you agonise over all these things that has happened and all the "indications" that you and your MM were always supposed to be together etc... But I think you should try to stop analysing them to death. Why? Not because you actually might be right (because you might be!) but because it is not helpful to you; these endless thoughts about who said what etc probably only gets your mind going around in endless circles... At the end of the day, you might be right that he should never have married her because YOU were really "the one" for him, BUT it is not up to you to make it happen, IF it ever happens. Only your MM can make it happen. Yes, I agree with you. It does sound a bit odd that someone would marry someone that he/she doesn't want to have kids with because the M might not last etc... But whatever happens to the M is up to your MM. There is very little that you can do. It is a process that HE will have to go through IF he decides that he married for the wrong reasons etc. I just feel that there is very little that you (nor I, for that matter!!! ) can do to actually start the process and make sure that it continues... Don't get me wrong, I am totally on your side and I am certainly not saying that you are misjudging your situation, his feelings for you and his attitude towards his M. (I just don't know enough to be able to say any such thing!) But I wonder if all this analysing is good for you? Yes, you do need to think about things, but I have sometimes found myself in situations where the same material is processed over and over and over again in my head, and I am none the wiser afterwards. In fact, I am more confused!!!! I have now adopted another approach where I process the same info once (perhaps twice... ) and then I decide to let go... Especially in a situation where I cannot do anything to influence the outcome, because somehow I feel liberated by it. Instead, I try to concentrate on the things that I CAN influence... Such as how you deal with your R with him for the time being. (Yes, the neverending discussion about NC, for instance, is part of it....) That is the only thing that you can decide for yourself. Also, don't put too much weight on his comments about how amazing YOUR kids would look etc. I think that all MM's (without necessarily wanting to be deliberately nasty and manipulative etc - although I suspect that many would!!!) downplay the good bits at home while at the same time they feed us with little titbits about the future. They do that because they need to buy time to figure out what to do, or to keep the status quo for as long as possible. So, EWS, what do you think? I am all for feedback....
Author eyeswideshut Posted May 14, 2006 Author Posted May 14, 2006 I know, I am analyzing this thing to death! And it's helpful to read other people's posts about how the MM tries to buy time by saying all sorts of things such as giving me babies. He's even asked me if I was going to email him when I'll be going to France for three weeks this summer. He's living a double-life. whenever she's out of town, he comes by. When I took a day off on Friday, he was all surprised that I didn't tell him because he said he could've come over and made me breakfast. (again, when she's at work) My biggest challenge will be June, when she'll be truly out of town for three weeks. However, I'm preparing for that. My best friend (another MM) told me that he will be my editor and I have a deadline to finish my novel by the end of June. I'm just wondering if I should be preparing even better by phoning him and telling him I am cutting all ties with him now. Or maybe just ignore him in June? Or give a bunch of manipulative excuses?? Anyway. I haven't contacted him since Wednesday. I'm expecting an email from him somtime soon, because now it's just becoming predictable. hahaha
Author eyeswideshut Posted May 14, 2006 Author Posted May 14, 2006 Jesse, I know you have your June deadline too coming up, so I suspect we will be going through some major stuff in June.. I promise to post every sick attempt my MM will make from now on to invite himself over "as a friend" here... hahaha
Sami_D Posted May 14, 2006 Posted May 14, 2006 ... writes a few emails during the week (when his wife is gone, she is gone every night for dance class) and I write back, about twice a week. Phones me on the odd week, when he misses me, and tells me all this stuff about missing me and how badly he wants to see me. During weekends, when they have family things, I don't hear a peep. (except when she is gone)... ... I'm really confused. sometimes I'm okay, I think, well, he's probably not for me because he can actually live without me for days and days. I'm not used to this sort of behavior. My ex fiancee wanted to spend every waking second that he wasnt' at work to be with me. So I find it odd that only 9 months into this, he keep saying he misses me, yet, he's trying not to see me Does it matter what I do at this point? I can't do the NC thing because I want him to know I'm fine with being friends since I am not even sure if I want him as a partner eventually. Yes, it does matter what you do at this point. His behaviour is the way it is because he's drip-feeding on you. He can keep going forever and ever like that. All he needs to do when he feels a little lost, a little low, or she's away, is to contact you, for his little nibble of cake... and then he's ok for another while, safe in the knowledge that you're there for him. You can do the NC thing. Or you can keep feeding him with affection and attention any time he wants it. Which is it to be?
Jessie61 Posted May 14, 2006 Posted May 14, 2006 I know, I am analyzing this thing to death! And it's helpful to read other people's posts about how the MM tries to buy time by saying all sorts of things such as giving me babies. He's even asked me if I was going to email him when I'll be going to France for three weeks this summer. He's living a double-life. whenever she's out of town, he comes by. When I took a day off on Friday, he was all surprised that I didn't tell him because he said he could've come over and made me breakfast. (again, when she's at work) My biggest challenge will be June, when she'll be truly out of town for three weeks. However, I'm preparing for that. My best friend (another MM) told me that he will be my editor and I have a deadline to finish my novel by the end of June. I'm just wondering if I should be preparing even better by phoning him and telling him I am cutting all ties with him now. Or maybe just ignore him in June? Or give a bunch of manipulative excuses?? Anyway. I haven't contacted him since Wednesday. I'm expecting an email from him somtime soon, because now it's just becoming predictable. hahaha Yes, concntrate on what YOU are going to to now that June is coming up soon... (I get startled myself every time I realise that it is only a couple of weeks away!!! ) You cannot do anything about what is going on between MM and the W, and perhaps you should assume that you don't know even half of it. But you DO know what is going on between the two of you. I think that you know at this stage his "modus operandi", and you are thankfully not ignoring the distinct possiblity that he is playing for time (and in some ways, I can understand why he would while is is thinking this through... but it doesn't mean that it can go on forever, does it???) Decide what to do in June... I think it is safe to assume that he will be in touch when the W is away...?
Jessie61 Posted May 14, 2006 Posted May 14, 2006 Jesse, I know you have your June deadline too coming up, so I suspect we will be going through some major stuff in June.. I promise to post every sick attempt my MM will make from now on to invite himself over "as a friend" here... hahaha Yes, June is a big month for both of us! Thankfully I won't have to deal with him face to face..... although he HAS asked me to come over for the time when he is leaving... Should I??? Hmmmm............. :confused:
Sami_D Posted May 14, 2006 Posted May 14, 2006 Jessie, why would he want to come over to you when he has a whole separation to deal with? When in June IS this deadline? What does the deadline say, exactly?
Author eyeswideshut Posted May 14, 2006 Author Posted May 14, 2006 jesse, yes, let us know exactly what the deadline is about. Is it that the divorce papers will be signed, or one of them is leaving the house, what exactly were the terms. and what if it takes longer??
Sami_D Posted May 14, 2006 Posted May 14, 2006 what if it takes longer?? Exactly. If you don't have particulars in mind, and specific dates... then you might be caught out on 'maybes' and 'nearlys'. And MM thrive on those. Never mind your best resolutions. And I'm not saying they're BAD for that... it's just that's what their ifs and wherefores are... they're not living in the same space we are... they are living between a Marriage (safe) and a Life (frightening) ... it's not the same for them. Everything is different for them. Everything.
Jessie61 Posted May 14, 2006 Posted May 14, 2006 Jessie, why would he want to come over to you when he has a whole separation to deal with? When in June IS this deadline? What does the deadline say, exactly? Sami, I guess he wants some TLC and support in the aftermath of leaving the W? All the other practical arrangements are already in place. The deal is that he has to pack his bags and leave the W before the end of June. I like to keep it straight forward so that he can easily understand what he is supposed to do!!!!
Sami_D Posted May 14, 2006 Posted May 14, 2006 Sami, I guess he wants some TLC and support in the aftermath of leaving the W? All the other practical arrangements are already in place. The deal is that he has to pack his bags and leave the W before the end of June. I like to keep it straight forward so that he can easily understand what he is supposed to do!!!! Is it 'sometime in June' or '30th of June' or...? And... is 'leaving her' to come and have a holiday with you... ok..? Sorry to not be sure, because I remember (vaguely) going ON about this on the night I had a very drunken evening on here and was questioning you about him. And I don't know what you replied then about what his wife had said when he told her he was leaving... because I haven't had the whatever to go back to see what I posted (what you replied) that night. so... Whatever she said then... must have moved on from that... what is she saying now..? And how are you feeling now that he's told her, etc..?
Jessie61 Posted May 14, 2006 Posted May 14, 2006 jesse, yes, let us know exactly what the deadline is about. Is it that the divorce papers will be signed, or one of them is leaving the house, what exactly were the terms. and what if it takes longer?? EWS, See the post above; he has to leave his W before the end of June. That means packing his bags and leaving the house. If it takes 10 seconds longer than expected, then I am gone forever. I have been more than patient, and I will not even discuss any extensions of the deadline. In fairness to him, he has not even gone near the subject! He has done absolutely everything that he is supposed to do so far and he sounds so sure about what he is doing, a hug difference to what he sounded like 6 months ago. Seeing is believeing, though!!!! So if it takes longer then we are finished, even if he does end up leaving the W at some stage in the future. It is harsh but I cannot take this uncertainty anymore. Does this make sense?
Jessie61 Posted May 14, 2006 Posted May 14, 2006 Exactly. If you don't have particulars in mind, and specific dates... then you might be caught out on 'maybes' and 'nearlys'. And MM thrive on those. Never mind your best resolutions. And I'm not saying they're BAD for that... it's just that's what their ifs and wherefores are... they're not living in the same space we are... they are living between a Marriage (safe) and a Life (frightening) ... it's not the same for them. Everything is different for them. Everything. Sami, Believe me, I have heard all the "maybes" and "nearlys" before.... And I am fully aware of them! And I will not entertain any of those anymore. Enough is enough! This time our deal is very specific and it will be a matter of fact! He's out of the house or he's not. If I do go home, I will actually be able to see with my own two eyes too!!! What should I do about that, do you think? I mean about going home for the deadline???? Any comments/suggestions/ideas?
Sami_D Posted May 14, 2006 Posted May 14, 2006 So.. 30th June he has to have moved out. How is it looking?
whichwayisup Posted May 14, 2006 Posted May 14, 2006 Are you two planning on moving in together as soon as he leaves? Or are you going to live separately and date. I ask this just because he probably will still have stuff to sort through, emotionally, when he leaves. TO give your relationship a fair chance, you both might want to consider slowing things down so you don't get hurt. There have been other threads in the past from OW, that the MM leave their wives, but then end up going back home. So, please, for your own sake and your heart, take it real slow.
Jessie61 Posted May 14, 2006 Posted May 14, 2006 Is it 'sometime in June' or '30th of June' or...? And... is 'leaving her' to come and have a holiday with you... ok..? Sorry to not be sure, because I remember (vaguely) going ON about this on the night I had a very drunken evening on here and was questioning you about him. And I don't know what you replied then about what his wife had said when he told her he was leaving... because I haven't had the whatever to go back to see what I posted (what you replied) that night. so... Whatever she said then... must have moved on from that... what is she saying now..? And how are you feeling now that he's told her, etc..? Sami, You are really on the ball here!!! I could swear that you have listened to as much "rubbish" as I have????? No, leaving is leaving the W for good. Not just a holiday. He has to leave her. Full stop. She has been in complete denial since he started talking to her about leaving back in November. She just shrugged her shoulders saying that it was his problem, that he was probably depressed so he should see his doctor for pills. Then she has slowly realised that it is more serious and now she has accepted that he doesn't love her anymore, does not fancy her anymore and has not interest in her or the M. He gave up years ago. BUT she still wants him to think again and come back with a final answer. When he does, she asks him again to go anway and think about it. BUT last weekend, she stopped sticking her head in the sand. Now she's talking about what will happen when they do separate. Then she changed her mind and said that she wants him to stay even though he doesn't love her. I have told him that he doesn't NEED her consent to leave, but of course it would be more amicable if she at least understood WHY it is better in the long rung for them to separate. Personally, I don't care how he does it, as long as he does what he is supposed to do before the end of June. I got too involved in the details before, and I realised that I cannot control anything that end of things, so I decided to concentrate on things that I CAN do something about instead. Does this make sense???? Sorry feeling VERY confused!!!
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