BS's... do you ever wonder?

[StrivingtoSucceed]

Kenny -

 

In a typical cake-man like setting then I would agree with you; however, not all situations are the same.

 

My H didn't come out smelling like a rose at all ... he was hurting and in pain too.

 

I don't feel I lost anything. In fact, I gained a much better understanding of how important it is to provide the "maintainence" required to keep a marriage strong and, hopefully, affair-proof. My husband gained the knowledge of how to draw the line and such things as "boundaries." We both gained the knowledge of how much we stood to lose ... and neither of us ever want to go back there again.

[target-d]

IMO the BS and the OW both lose. The MM comes out smelling like a rose.

Kenny, you are obviously still in a lot of pain over your affair. This posting, however, is not necessary. The BS who are posting here are responding to a question that was ASKED to the betrayed spouses regarding their feelings after they have chosen to forgive. They have a lot to deal with and for some it is difficult posting on this forum due to exactly these type of comments.

 

Since they were ASKED to post here in this thread, it is not right for you to make off the cuff comments such as these that do not even slightly refer to the OP.

[OzGirl]

Just want to say thanks to all who have posted answers and taken the time to detail them.

 

It's been really interesting, and I have not tried to "imply" anything by the questions about what you ought to think/do. I don't profess that the "OR" indicates they're your only options.

 

It does seem to answer and put in perspective why the BS's don't leave. It's true, most women would say if their H cheated on them, they would leave (in theory).

 

But, to assess the conditions of the marriage under which the A seems to take place, it seems that it's the symptom of something maybe being wrong and both parties use it as a catalyst to assess where it came from (the ability or need to have an A), and work on fixing these issues.

 

I don't think it's easy for anyone, and the OW, just like the W has to look internally at herself and what she wants for herself before she can really assess how the MM or H plays into that.

 

Letting go for the OW seems to be just as hard (though obviously in different ways) as staying for the W, and I think it's a misconception which is eventually realised by both people along their roads to recovery.

 

I understand what Kenny said. I think it lacked clarification and therefore, didn't really offer a lot to this thread (no offense, Kenny), but at no point is the H left alone. I believe he hurts for the pain he causes his W, and despite how they appear to handle it (breaking NC, promises to the W it was meaningless and/or their focus is immediately back into their M), I believe the MM has to suffer alone in his grief of losing a friend or lover in the OW where their was an EA or EA & PA.

 

To have an OW devasted their gone, and a W not walking out the door (as expected maybe), the MM doesn't always get the negative experience of being cast out alone for his actions, or to discuss what he is internalising about the situation within himself. Maybe that's an assumption, but my ex-MM told me this about him, anyway.

 

He said that he can't talk to his W about how hard the aftermath has been, because he's not in a situation that warrants sympathy, and his actions had to demonstrate his efforts for or with his W. When I told him I acknowledged the loss of our friendship must have been hard on him, he said it was a pain that burns inside him everyday, and will for a long time because he can't do anything about it.

 

Again, I just want to thank the posters and any future ones. You've opened up my eyes to both the situation for how it is for you, and deepened my compassion for people in your situation.

 

I don't know how often the A re-occurs for the BSs... if things are always there to remind you it happened, and for how long these things have the ability to do that.

 

It's been been 9 months since I last saw my ex-MM. I realise now I don't think about him all too much, but there is the occassional reminder of him being in my life. I'm hoping one day it will take his name flashing in neon lights in front of my face before I give him any thought at all. I feel like it's just my heart dragging its feet, and it's not for him that it's doing it. It's just me and the pieces of myself that have not returned since he left.

 

It's good to break down the walls of assumption and 'type'. Thanks, again.

[fisher-man]

I believe he hurts for the pain he causes his W, and despite how they appear to handle it (breaking NC, promises to the W it was meaningless and/or their focus is immediately back into their M), I believe the MM has to suffer alone in his grief of losing a friend or lover in the OW where their was an EA or EA & PA.

 

To have an OW devasted their gone, and a W not walking out the door (as expected maybe), the MM doesn't always get the negative experience of being cast out alone for his actions, or to discuss what he is internalising about the situation within himself. Maybe that's an assumption, but my ex-MM told me this about him, anyway.

 

He said that he can't talk to his W about how hard the aftermath has been, because he's not in a situation that warrants sympathy, and his actions had to demonstrate his efforts for or with his W. When I told him I acknowledged the loss of our friendship must have been hard on him, he said it was a pain that burns inside him everyday, and will for a long time because he can't do anything about it.

I'm an MM, and as such know that I am not particularly welcome here, but would like to comment on these thoughts. It's not particularly pleasant, but what I think of the past, which I truly attempt to avoid, I do not have grief over losing a friend or lover. I have grief over mistreating my wife. I'm sorry I hurt the other woman, I regret having led her on, but I have no grief over her absence in my life.

 

I read the postings on LoveShack with interest but they often frustrate me. The assumptions that are made by the OW never seem to fit with my feelings. I hope that the woman I had an EA with gets on with her life and never thinks of me again. My focus is on my wife and our lives together. I don't think of the OW. I haven't wanted to see her, talk to her, write her, or think of her since the day I told her that our relationship was over (actually since quite awhile BEFORE I told her the relationship was over). I don't wish her to be unhappy, I just don't want to have any contact with her.

 

I'm sorry, as I know this sounds very cold and unfeeling. I'm neither cold nor unfeeling in reality, but my feelings are no longer confused. They are centered on my wife.

[OzGirl]

Fish - I think that makes sense. You are welcome here, btw.

 

I guess the people that post in the OW thread - they have soooo many questions unanswered, because they have no contact with the MM. They have to try and work out what happened to them, and assess who's involved and how, and try and turn inwards and assess how they got into this mess in the first place, too.

 

We have no one to work 'with'. So, we come here and work with each other. There are OW, I'm sure who don't come to these forums because they have friends to talk to maybe... most OW here don't. We come here because it's private and it's the only outlet we have. No one else listens without judgement, or makes statements that are informative, rather than cliched and obvious (ie, you're better off without him).

 

I'm glad your focus is on your W and I guess that's how it should be. You are a model ex-MM. From the OW's point of view... we just find it hard to let go when so many ex-MM break NC, send emails of missing us, etc. They have the choice to focus on their M and W and we wonder why on earth they bother to contact us.

 

The words we never seem to hear from an MM - THIS AFFAIR IS OVER. It's a blurred line to figure out when it is, stop living in hope, regain control, etc.

 

Anyway, thanks again. I hope that for you, just like many of the OW and BS's who float around these threads, the incident worked out, in the long run, to be the catalyst for a better, more honest, more committed life for you and those who share yours with you.

 

[fisher-man]

I'm glad your focus is on your W and I guess that's how it should be. You are a model ex-MM. From the OW's point of view... we just find it hard to let go when so many ex-MM break NC, send emails of missing us, etc. They have the choice to focus on their M and W and we wonder why on earth they bother to contact us.

 

The words we never seem to hear from an MM - THIS AFFAIR IS OVER. It's a blurred line to figure out when it is, stop living in hope, regain control, etc.

 

OK, so here goes - since you say I'm welcome, I'm going to say a few more things that are difficult to say,and probably to hear as well.

 

An affair is addictive. No matter what the reason is, the fact that there is this other human being who can be so utterly enthralled with you is addictive. God, how I hate to admit this, but a large measure of the addiction is the control you have over another person. You say things and they believe those things, even when you figure that anybody would be able to see through them. That kind of control is addictive. It's hard to let it go, even when you know it's bad.

 

When you finally do decide to let it go, then the guilt hits. You've already hurt this person so much - even though they may not be aware of it, you are. You don't want to hurt them anymore, so you don't say "It's over, I don't want you in my life." You say, "I'll always care for you, but I've decided to work things out with my wife. It's for the sake of the kids, or finances, or she really needs me right now", or whatever you can think of that seems like it will soften the fact that you really don't want to be there anymore. You've already told so many lies - what's one or two more? You don't want to say, "listen, I really do love my wife, and I used you. Sorry". You also are afraid of the reaction. You've told this woman so many lies it makes you ill, what is she going to do if you make it obvious to her face that they were lies? You just want everything to fade away peacefully.

 

Well, it's probably pretty obvious that I've slipped into the 3rd person here. I also need to say that my experience is for sure not everyones. but it probably is the same for too many.

 

I'm so sorry for all the pain I caused everyone. My focus is now on my wife and will be for the rest of my life.

[StoneyHeart]

 

When you finally do decide to let it go, then the guilt hits. You've already hurt this person so much - even though they may not be aware of it, you are. You don't want to hurt them anymore, so you don't say "It's over, I don't want you in my life." You say, "I'll always care for you, but I've decided to work things out with my wife. It's for the sake of the kids, or finances, or she really needs me right now", or whatever you can think of that seems like it will soften the fact that you really don't want to be there anymore. You've already told so many lies - what's one or two more? You don't want to say, "listen, I really do love my wife, and I used you. Sorry". You also are afraid of the reaction. You've told this woman so many lies it makes you ill, what is she going to do if you make it obvious to her face that they were lies? You just want everything to fade away peacefully.

quote]

 

This makes so much sense. If there is a MM out there reading this and not sure how to cut it off and really feels like it is a favor to the OW to do this soft-landing bit, if I were your OW it would be so much easier to fade away peacefully for me if you would just say it CLEARLY "I just used you, it's over". Maybe then I wouldn't be so sick with whether I am cutting it off too soon, whether you'll leave, etc......blah, blah.....for me the hope is still the hardest part. That and losing my best friend.

[OzGirl]

This makes so much sense. If there is a MM out there reading this and not sure how to cut it off and really feels like it is a favor to the OW to do this soft-landing bit, if I were your OW it would be so much easier to fade away peacefully for me if you would just say it CLEARLY "I just used you, it's over". Maybe then I wouldn't be so sick with whether I am cutting it off too soon, whether you'll leave, etc......blah, blah.....for me the hope is still the hardest part. That and losing my best friend.

 

I absolutely agree. It's like when someone dies, you have a point to move from, and the pain still stings, but you get through the process.

 

If they were dead, then revived, then dead, then revived... it would be never ending the turmoil of 'do I let go or not'.

 

Interesting what Fish says about the lies. I think my ex-MM is glad now he's no longer lying to me, and I'm sure NC ensures that for us both. But, I think the breaking-of-the-NC comes from the guilt of having hurt me. He wants to see I'm okay, or try and make me feel okay - I teach him this by getting excited at the 'hope' he gives me. He and I are both temporarily relieved of the pain of the situation. But, the situation still exists and it is constant.

 

(I'm talking about the past, not the recent past. My ex-MM have had NC for quite some time ago, last saw each other 9 mths ago).

 

Fish, you say your focus is on your W. Not your actions - but your thoughts.... do you ever think about the ex-OW? Wonder if she's okay, etc? Or, is her welfare completely out of your thoughts all together?

 

Just curious. I know a few men who had affairs 20 years ago who say they still wonder about either the OW's welfare, or (worse still I guess) what could have been. I'm sure they can think that whilst not taking any attention/actions/love, etc away from their W's? After all, a thought is often just a passing one?

 

What are your thoughts?

[NoIDidn't]

My question is, after you take back your H to work on your M, and it's going 'well'... is that usually better than before you found out about the A? Or, is "well" defined as the same, but he's just not out porking someone else?

He had an EA so there was no "porking" going on. Yes, things are better but it is still a work in progress.

Second question: Most OW here who have left the affair situation, seem to really be happier within themselves for doing so. That is, they've dealt with the reasons they may have 'settled' for a MM. Do any BS's feel they're compromising a part of themselves to take back their H? That they have lowered the ideal standard of partner they wished they had?

For the OW not being on the betrayed end of things, she may not understand the initial grieving the W goes through. Its hard to have your rose colored glasses smashed concerning your H. I guess you are speaking from personal experience because not all OWs feel happier within themselves. They have other issues to deal with why they were involved with an unavailable man. Some Ws never feel happier. I am getting there.

Do you ever, even if it's all working out okay... do you ever wonder how different (maybe better) you may have felt NOW if you just left him instead? Do you ever think about being single yourself? Having the opportunity to have 'desire' and 'need' renewed in you, just has your H has by having the A?

I have felt this way frequently, but what's the point. I have already seen the end result if I were to betray him in myself. I don't think much about being single though. Plus, now that we are focusing on our much neglected marriage, desire and need are being renewed from each other. Sometimes the A (EA or PA) really is a wakeup call to both partners.

OW seem to be so, eventually, repulsed by the same man another woman took back for knowing about the same situation that repulsed the OW. OW also seem to feel really strong and triumphant and REALLY free to 'grow' and move in a way that defines who they are in a really good way. Do BS's get these opportunities by staying?

Now this is the part that I agree with MsC on. I understand that it is a question asked out of curiosity but like the "porked" comment, it really invokes a negative response and reaction from a BS. From what I understand, many OW hate the fact that they feel like they have been thrown under the bus for the W, so the W could be feeling pretty triumphant too. But seriously. A BW is free to grow in a relationship that is being renewed. That's empowering to have someone love you at your worst or most hurt. I realized, as did H, that I bent over backward for him and it still did not keep him from his EA. So I have started the process of getting back to me. The woman he married. We are both growing.

 

Another thing: I hate to say it, but it is not the BWs place to be concerned with the OWs pain when she has so much of her own. Both need to find a safe place to vent their hopes and frustrations. And, why would any woman married or otherwise be concerned about the person who was messing with her significant other behind her back? If the roles we reversed, do you honestly think you would call to check on her or even trust your H to do it? I have thought about it. But I am of the opinion that she really doesn't want to hear from me because I am still with him and she would think I was calling to rub my happiness in her face. My H OW lost a lot in their breakup and I really feel for her, but she does not want to know that I am concerned about her. Of this I am certain.

 

One other thing: The OW is not "disposable", she just isn't a part of the M. No one has forgotten about her, they are just not focusing on her.

[fisher-man]

Fish, you say your focus is on your W. Not your actions - but your thoughts.... do you ever think about the ex-OW? Wonder if she's okay, etc? Or, is her welfare completely out of your thoughts all together?

 

Just curious. I know a few men who had affairs 20 years ago who say they still wonder about either the OW's welfare, or (worse still I guess) what could have been. I'm sure they can think that whilst not taking any attention/actions/love, etc away from their W's? After all, a thought is often just a passing one?

 

What are your thoughts?

Both my actions and my thoughts are focused on my wife. The only thought I have had of the OW is that I regret having ever spoken to her. I am not concerned about her welfare. As I said, I hope that she has gone on with her life and completely forgotten about me. I don't care if she's repulsed, in fact I hope she is. I do NOT want her to think that there is ever any chance of any future with me, but if she does, I'm afraid that IS her problem. I told her very clearly - finally - that I had no interest in her, and that I love my wife. If she still thinks there is any good thing in my mind or my heart directed towards her, then she is wrong and it is time for her to go on with her life.

 

Don't get me wrong, I utterly regret what I did, but there is never a thought of how she is, "is she OK" type of thought. I'm sorry I hurt people. She is one of the people I hurt, and so is included, but not with any kind of longing or good memeory or anything like that. Does that make sense? I feel desperately sorry that I hurt my wife when I think of that I get angry at the OW just as I get angry at myself.

[Guest]

Wow, Fisher-man. I just have to say thank you for posting your thoughts.

 

I know while all As are different, they are also the same. Hearing another MAN say the things my H has said to me allows me to be .... I don't know actually. I've forgiven him, I love him, our marriage is great. I believe the EA he had opened up both our eyes and made us realize the "maintenance" that has to go into a marriage everyday in order for it to be a great marriage. So, honestly, I do have it to thank.

 

But the anger/resentment at how he could have gotten so close to throwing "us" away, how he could have hurt me, and say and do the things he did, even though I know he wasn't in his right mind and that he was hurting just as much, sometimes comes forth and I have to really bite my tongue.

 

I guess your words just allow me to be a little more accepting of it all.

[StrivingtoSucceed]

Darn-it! I posted a reply and didn't pay attention to not being logged in ...

 

Fisher-man - thank you for your post. Hearing a MAN say the same thing that my H has said to me has helped me be a little more accepting.

 

My full post will be on here at some time ... once the moderators have decided it is o.k., but until then, just wanted to let you know I appreciate your posts.

[NoIDidn't]

OzGirl

 

I wanted to send you a PM but can't since I don't have enough privileges yet, so I am putting it here. I read your post on another thread about visiting uninvited to MM home and all that happened. That is so horrible and disrespectful to you. I understand the sarcasm in your initial post A LOT better now. I have been in the same situation, but not with a MM. But it still burns me up that some men attempt to treat us that way.

:|

[OzGirl]

Hi NID.

 

I've never actually posted the full story on my MM and how he got 'caught' by me and within an hour, 'caught' by his W. It's actually because it's just SO bizarre, it basically gives out my real name, address and phone number to anyone who found it who knows even half of the story... the last thing I've ever wanted is for the MM to find my posts in here and see the damage it's done. I think he'd get right off knowing I still come here discussing the subject with others. He would, I'm sure, love to know I had a hard time coping... how flattering it would be to have someone not just write you off as a bad debt, but spend many months trying to recover that debt.

 

I told someone the 'whole story' about a month ago. He was speechless, his jaw was literally open and I don't think his raised eyebrows let him blink...lol.

 

It was horrible. Absolutely horrible. And, the one thing we hear about A LOT of the time is how staying in the M for the BS or MM is the right thing to do 'for the kids' if no one else.

 

What about all those kids - all those little kids at that - who ALSO got their hearts crushed because a man who was in their life, and as far as they're concerned, independantly their friend, too, just never rings, never turns up again.

 

I'm responsible for letting him into my life. Innocently believing he was telling me the truth when he said HE WAS SEPARATED. He EVEN got his kids (who were in their teens) to get to know me, encouraged them to get close to me, then it made it easy for them to want to lie to me ALSO about the separation because they liked me and wanted me around, too.

 

How do I (a) forgive myself for being in what was mostly an unpreventable situation of just wanting to be loved for who I am - and finding someone who appeared to do that with all the faithfulness I gave him, too, and then (b) reconcile how he cheated on my daughter, too? She was basically a BABY when they met.

 

She really missed him for a good 6 months. How do I get out of her brain the images of me crying ALL THE TIME for months on end trying to comprehend what had happened to me... to us.

 

How does a grown man who had a beautiful little girl in his life just never give a toss about her again?

 

The same man who asked his own kids to lie so he could continue his affair. The same man who's W is having his child in 2 months time.... WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND finds out their H cheated then says "let's go on IVF" and 8 weeks later is pregnant? You CAN'T tell me they've dealt with their marriage in that time... or that a planned pregnancy is a solution. I heard Dr Phil say the other day one thing he hates is kids who are bought into this world "with a job to do".

 

HOW did I love him so very deeply for 3 years - the same man who did all this?

 

Having faith in my own judgement is the damage done. It will take a good man to convince me I found one when I do.

[OzGirl]

Not right now because I have to go help the guy over the road fix his medi-evil PC, but I will creat a blog online somewhere and tell the story from start to finish. For those interested, IM me, and I will let you know where it is. I in no way over-estimate the interest you might have - I'm not being conceited, but judging by those I've told "in real life" so far, it's like reading a science fiction novel....

 

I dated an alien for 3 years... literally!

[zarathustra]

Both my actions and my thoughts are focused on my wife. The only thought I have had of the OW is that I regret having ever spoken to her. I am not concerned about her welfare. As I said, I hope that she has gone on with her life and completely forgotten about me. I don't care if she's repulsed, in fact I hope she is. I do NOT want her to think that there is ever any chance of any future with me, but if she does, I'm afraid that IS her problem. I told her very clearly - finally - that I had no interest in her, and that I love my wife. If she still thinks there is any good thing in my mind or my heart directed towards her, then she is wrong and it is time for her to go on with her life.

 

Don't get me wrong, I utterly regret what I did, but there is never a thought of how she is, "is she OK" type of thought. I'm sorry I hurt people. She is one of the people I hurt, and so is included, but not with any kind of longing or good memeory or anything like that. Does that make sense? I feel desperately sorry that I hurt my wife when I think of that I get angry at the OW just as I get angry at myself.

Wow... Fish, I admire your honesty. I guess its not easy to write what you feel or lack thereof for the OW especially in a forum full of us OW.

 

While I admire your honesty to us, I still think its really repulsive how you can admit to having used your OW. I think that no one would volunteer to be used so I deduced that you lied to her from the beginning. Maybe it hits home a bit too much for me - which is a very likely possibility as to why I'm so repulsed. If you can feel so little and care so little about your xOW, likely my xMM feels and cares nothing for me even though he says he does. Maybe his saying that he would want to know it if I were to fall seriously ill is also a lie? Maybe his saying that he genuinely wants to be nice to me while I'm here is also a lie? through your honesty, fish, I'll take it that these are all lies. It saddens me, but I'll get through it.

 

I guess its really not important anymore whether he thinks of me or not. since there isn't a possibility of us ever being able to be together. I guess the first obstacle is that he will never want to be back with me, even if he and his wife separated and divorced. I guess that the second obstacle is that if he did want me back, is that I am unlikely able to get past the hurt he dealt to me as I think that he lied to me from the beginning (and I refuse to believe otherwise). Finally, I know that even if we desired to be together, no one in my circle of friends will ever accept him and anyone who's important to him will never accept me. I don't think that we could be happy unless we have more than each other in our lives and having lived life together for a brief moment in time, I know that we would have a very lonely existance outside of each other.

[fisher-man]

Wow... Fish, I admire your honesty. I guess its not easy to write what you feel or lack thereof for the OW especially in a forum full of us OW.

 

NO It's not easy. but I'd like to remind you that I'm telling only MY story. It really has zero to do with anyone elses. I've got to admit that it's truly difficult to admit the depth of what I consider to be me depravity. I'm apologizing to all of you mostly because I refuse to apologize to my actual OW. (I want nothing to do with her.)

[movinon05]

NO It's not easy. but I'd like to remind you that I'm telling only MY story. It really has zero to do with anyone elses. I've got to admit that it's truly difficult to admit the depth of what I consider to be me depravity. I'm apologizing to all of you mostly because I refuse to apologize to my actual OW. (I want nothing to do with her.)

 

I don't know your whole story except that you love your W and are dedicating yourself to your M. That, in itself, is a good thing. The OW should not be part of that equation. Yes, there are two sides to this story, but the fact that you are doing what needs to be done for your M is more important. There's nothing you can do for the OW except stay away and allow her to heal in her own way.

[zarathustra]

NO It's not easy. but I'd like to remind you that I'm telling only MY story. It really has zero to do with anyone elses. I've got to admit that it's truly difficult to admit the depth of what I consider to be me depravity. I'm apologizing to all of you mostly because I refuse to apologize to my actual OW. (I want nothing to do with her.)

 

There's not need to apologize to any of us as you didn't harm us. Like you said, its your story and doesn't have anything to do with anyone else's life. My xMM apologized many times to me and each time, its like he was twisting the knife that he jammed into my into my heart. I'm guessing that she probably wants nothing to do with you either. But what do I know.

 

I think that how you feel about the OW may be similar to many MM who have made a choice to go back to the W. While it hurts me very much to read how little you care about this woman and that you just used her (as I assume that my xMM probably feels the same way about me), I do appreciate your honesty.