Chump64 Posted June 7, 2006 Posted June 7, 2006 Staying married is one thing, staying in love is another. Okay -- but how to the OW know whether the wife is in love or not? Let’s talk about that honesty thing again. The MM is not often going to say, “My wife loves me.” MM often make their wives out to be the big bad guy in the picture. You can choose to not divorce, because you can't be on your own for whatever reasons, but you can't choose to forgive and go on with your relationship Whoa! I hope I am misunderstanding what you are saying. Obviously, I disagree. (Again, this is all assuming that the cheating spouse has stopped cheating.) It is possible to choose to forgive and go on, or at least to try. If it wasn’t possible, why would people in this situation try to work on things with counseling, self improvement, etc.? Forgiveness is a choice. Betrayed spouses who cut all contact and refuse to discuss the situation are choosing not to forgive. I’m choosing to try to forgive. I don’t know if I can, but I made the choice to try (vs. divorce). I guess my spouse did too, since I gave him the chance to divorce on D-day. I’m not judging those who choose not to forgive, and who move on. It’s an individual choice fraught with complications and good reasons NOT to forgive, in some cases. But it is a choice.
silktricks Posted June 7, 2006 Posted June 7, 2006 So a wife may be stuck between staying with a straying husband and seeing her own kids 100 percent of the time, or giving up her marriage and giving up her kids 50 percent of the time. You can argue all you want that a bad marriage is a bad thing for kids to live with, but the drive to keep your own kids 100 percent of the time may easily override that. This may be true, I don't know. I do think that if the woman truly loves her children and truly thinks that their father is a good father, she will not balk at a divorce for this reason. Most good mothers WANT their children to be spending time with Dad, as they know this is good for the children.
silktricks Posted June 7, 2006 Posted June 7, 2006 Staying married is one thing, staying in love is another. You can choose to not divorce, because you can't be on your own for whatever reasons, but you can't choose to forgive and go on with your relationship (make love to your spouse, smile, kiss him with joy when he returns from work, prepare meals that he loves with the same enthusiasm or whatever wives do). I personally would never stay married if I didn't stay in love. And this is such a silly thing to say, and again, so terribly demeaning to the BS who choose to forgive their erring spouse. Of course you can choose to forgive. I could say that you can choose to try to forgive, but in my opinion that's a cop-out. I had a therapist a long time ago who said that if you say you are going to "try" to do something you are condemning yourself to fail. You choose to forgive, or you choose not to forgive, but either way, you choose. Most BS stated that their marriage became even better after the affair so they DID get past the affair to a certain degree if they could relax and love their husbands again. So it's simply not a matter of dependency. Maybe if they were financially well established, they would leave right away - but they would come back after a while. If it's any type of dependence, then it's emotional, rather than financial. I could say something really rude here, and probably feel good about it for about 10 seconds. It's not to a "certain degree" nor is it simply a matter of dependency. The wife is often (I could even say usually) NOT pitiful, weak, scorned or dependent. She is often strong, disciplined, loyal and independent. In fact, sometimes it is her very independence that led to the A in the first place. An affair is not a death-knell for a marriage. If the BS chooses to forgive, the affair is an alarm bell. Something is badly wrong, something needs to change, something needs work. To do that work when you are feeling worse than you've probably ever felt in your life is not something that a weak person can handle. Regarding strength, in any case it takes strength to beat the weakness, regardless of whether to choose to stay or leave. It takes a lot of stamina to forgive and stay or to pack your bags and start a new life. I don't judge the women who stay. After all, why would they have to change everything in their lives just because someone chose to stick it in another woman's vagina? Having done both at different times in my life, it takes more strength to stay then it does to leave and start over. More determination, more hard work, more love, more endurance. Leaving and starting a new life is a cakewalk compared to working through hard problems, no matter how much you both want to work through them. And why should you or could you judge the women who stay. You are not them. It's not your life or your choice. You have no right to judge anyone for their choices, especially a wife for choosing to stay with her husband. For you to even say that you don't judge them is demeaning and belittling as it implies that you have the right to issue judgement.
zarathustra Posted June 7, 2006 Posted June 7, 2006 I personally would never stay married if I didn't stay in love. And this is such a silly thing to say, and again, so terribly demeaning to the BS who choose to forgive their erring spouse. Of course you can choose to forgive. I could say that you can choose to try to forgive, but in my opinion that's a cop-out. I had a therapist a long time ago who said that if you say you are going to "try" to do something you are condemning yourself to fail. You choose to forgive, or you choose not to forgive, but either way, you choose. I could say something really rude here, and probably feel good about it for about 10 seconds. It's not to a "certain degree" nor is it simply a matter of dependency. The wife is often (I could even say usually) NOT pitiful, weak, scorned or dependent. She is often strong, disciplined, loyal and independent. In fact, sometimes it is her very independence that led to the A in the first place. An affair is not a death-knell for a marriage. If the BS chooses to forgive, the affair is an alarm bell. Something is badly wrong, something needs to change, something needs work. To do that work when you are feeling worse than you've probably ever felt in your life is not something that a weak person can handle. Having done both at different times in my life, it takes more strength to stay then it does to leave and start over. More determination, more hard work, more love, more endurance. Leaving and starting a new life is a cakewalk compared to working through hard problems, no matter how much you both want to work through them. And why should you or could you judge the women who stay. You are not them. It's not your life or your choice. You have no right to judge anyone for their choices, especially a wife for choosing to stay with her husband. For you to even say that you don't judge them is demeaning and belittling as it implies that you have the right to issue judgement. Well said Silk... well said!!
Chump64 Posted June 7, 2006 Posted June 7, 2006 it takes more strength to stay then it does to leave and start over. More determination, more hard work, more love, more endurance. Leaving and starting a new life is a cakewalk compared to working through hard problems, no matter how much you both want to work through them. Boy, can I attest to this! There are many days when I think the easiest thing to do would be to sell our house, get our own places, share custody and be amicable. But I also think that going that route is riddled with its own problems. What if you leave the cheating spouse, make all those changes, and then regret that you never explored the possibility of working it out – all because of your own pride and righteousness? Or over concern about what others will think? Any way you slice it, BS are not in a good position. But I continue to be amazed at the disapproving judgments cast on BS who choose to try saving their marriages. Where does this “blame the victim” mentality come from?
zarathustra Posted June 7, 2006 Posted June 7, 2006 it takes more strength to stay then it does to leave and start over. More determination, more hard work, more love, more endurance. Leaving and starting a new life is a cakewalk compared to working through hard problems, no matter how much you both want to work through them. Boy, can I attest to this! There are many days when I think the easiest thing to do would be to sell our house, get our own places, share custody and be amicable. But I also think that going that route is riddled with its own problems. What if you leave the cheating spouse, make all those changes, and then regret that you never explored the possibility of working it out – all because of your own pride and righteousness? Or over concern about what others will think? Any way you slice it, BS are not in a good position. But I continue to be amazed at the disapproving judgments cast on BS who choose to try saving their marriages. Where does this “blame the victim” mentality come from? Don't pay those naysayers any attention, Chump... just some poor attempt at kicking someone when they are already down but hiding behind the guise/pretention of having your best interest at heart.
silktricks Posted June 8, 2006 Posted June 8, 2006 Don't pay those naysayers any attention, Chump... just some poor attempt at kicking someone when they are already down but hiding behind the guise/pretention of having your best interest at heart. Thanks Z. Truer words are seldom spoke.
RecordProducer Posted June 8, 2006 Posted June 8, 2006 You guys totally misunderstood what I said. I guess I was writing my post in a hurry... People here were talking about wives staying married because of money, children, lack of career, etc. They presented the BS as someone who would gladly walk away if she had a great-paying job and no kids or even worse, if she were stronger and braver. What I said was that the wives (who said that their marriages have become better after the affair) did NOT stay for any reasons other than LOVE. They did forgive and worked on their relationships together with their husbands. The trust and love were re-gained. If they had other reasons for staying as well such as family and parental comfort or mutual finances, they added up to the whole decision, but would've meant nothing without the BS' desire to be with her husband. They can stay married because they have no place to go, but they can't just fake love and joy. If they stayed married for other motives, their marriages would become hell. If I chose to stay married after an affair because of financial reasons, I couldn't just make love to my husband and feel good around him and fake happiness. Understand now what I meant? By the way, I didn't say anything that might hurt ANY party so I don't get the reactions.
RecordProducer Posted June 8, 2006 Posted June 8, 2006 Staying married is one thing, staying in love is another. Okay -- but how to the OW know whether the wife is in love or not? Let’s talk about that honesty thing again. The MM is not often going to say, “My wife loves me.” MM often make their wives out to be the big bad guy in the picture.{/quote] I don't understand what's this have to do with what I wrote. Who cares what the MM lies to the OW? I am talking from the wife's perspective. She can mentally decide to stay married, but she can't decide to continue to love her husband - you either love him or not. Just like I can't decide to NOT love my husband. It would take years probably if I wanted to get over him. You can choose to not divorce, because you can't be on your own for whatever reasons, but you can't choose to forgive and go on with your relationship Whoa! I hope I am misunderstanding what you are saying. Obviously, I disagree. (Again, this is all assuming that the cheating spouse has stopped cheating.) It is possible to choose to forgive and go on, or at least to try. You didn't quote my whole sentence so I will: You can choose to not divorce, because you can't be on your own for whatever reasons, but you can't choose to forgive and go on with your relationship (make love to your spouse, smile, kiss him with joy when he returns from work, prepare meals that he loves with the same enthusiasm or whatever wives do). Can you choose to smile and kiss and make love AGAINST your will? If yes, then you must be prepared to act and pretend well. I don't think you can CHOOSE to shower your partner with affection when you feel like strangling him and I don't think you can CHOOSE to whistle while making his favorite salad when you feel like crying your eyes out. So my point is: the BS who stayed and worked things out FELT like choosing to stay and work things out.
silktricks Posted June 8, 2006 Posted June 8, 2006 You guys totally misunderstood what I said. I guess I was writing my post in a hurry... By the way, I didn't say anything that might hurt ANY party so I don't get the reactions. Got it now. Sorry for the misunderstanding. (not that I totally agree with you, mind you, as I do believe that you CAN choose to forgive.) I do agree, though that pain takes time to go away.
silktricks Posted June 8, 2006 Posted June 8, 2006 it takes more strength to stay then it does to leave and start over. More determination, more hard work, more love, more endurance. Leaving and starting a new life is a cakewalk compared to working through hard problems, no matter how much you both want to work through them. So silly to be quoting myself - but I need to say here, that this is just as true for the WS as it is for the BS. It is damned hard work for the wanderer to stick with it through the re-living and re-re-living of their spouses pain. They need to be truly committed and truly in love to be able to endure it.
MrsHellFire Posted June 8, 2006 Posted June 8, 2006 Everyone has different reasons. It is not an exact science and never will be. Love seems to be the major reason stated on here at least, but sometimes it has nothing to do with love. I see way too many loveless marriages for that to be standard reason.
Author stillafool Posted June 8, 2006 Author Posted June 8, 2006 You're right Mrs. Hellfire there are a lot of reasons a BS will stay and no one situation is the same. Like I said before if it's just one affair why not try to work it out. Everyone makes mistakes. My post is talking about a cheater who has multiple affairs, the wife knows, he will not stop it, she is educated, they have a ton of money to split. My question I guess would be to women out there who has a spouse who has affair after affair. Why do you stay?????????? Just curious.
grateful Posted June 8, 2006 Posted June 8, 2006 You're right Mrs. Hellfire there are a lot of reasons a BS will stay and no one situation is the same. Like I said before if it's just one affair why not try to work it out. Everyone makes mistakes. My post is talking about a cheater who has multiple affairs, the wife knows, he will not stop it, she is educated, they have a ton of money to split. My question I guess would be to women out there who has a spouse who has affair after affair. Why do you stay?????????? Just curious. I know you've specified this question now to BS's of serial cheaters (but in the OW/OM thread you are unlikely to get their answers). As there's been much speculation up to this point, I'm going to give it a go even though I'm not the BS you are asking about. I do happen to be acquaintanced with many of these women -- women who know their husbands are serial cheaters. For a marriage in which the WS repeatedly cheats and the BS knows, cheating is the normal state of the marriage. It is functionally disfunctional and it ain't going to change. In a situation in which the BS doesn't know, there is the possibility that she or he will throw out the WS upon learning of the cheating. Not so in the situation of the serial cheater where the BS knows. It is how their marriage functions. It is what it is. And neither one of them is going to get out of it.
Author stillafool Posted June 8, 2006 Author Posted June 8, 2006 BTW, in the situation I'm talking about there is no OW but other women. He is very honest and no one is waiting for him to leave his W. He's into one night stands, seeing different people in every city, etc. No one is waiting for him to leave his W.
movinon05 Posted June 8, 2006 Posted June 8, 2006 BTW, in the situation I'm talking about there is no OW but other women. He is very honest and no one is waiting for him to leave his W. He's into one night stands, seeing different people in every city, etc. No one is waiting for him to leave his W. Eww! Yuck!!! Sorry, just had to say that! I'm sure there are a number of reasons she puts up with that, but I'm finding it hard to believe this is very common. Maybe its my old naive self!
grateful Posted June 8, 2006 Posted June 8, 2006 Not true. Some men have everything they want at home. I know a couple in their 40s. They've had kids and she is gorgeous! Looks 25. He cheats like you wouldn't believe. He believes its just a biological reality that men need to wander. He told me that he intends to tell his daughters that that's how men are, they can expect this from their future partners, and its OK as long as he doesn't bring it home. I felt so sad for those girls when he told me this, but what can you do... there is no talking to this man or I would have tried. I thought I'd pull a silktricks and quote myself, albeit from another thread. (it's from the 'have you ever met the W' thread) Maybe the BS was raised by a father like the one I'm talking about in the quote. Maybe she believes that this is a biological reality of the male sex. Who knows... without asking the BS directly, all anyone can do is speculate.
sylviaguardian Posted June 8, 2006 Posted June 8, 2006 Maybe the BS was raised by a father like the one I'm talking about in the quote. Maybe she believes that this is a biological reality of the male sex. Who knows... without asking the BS directly, all anyone can do is speculate. It's not just fathers who give this impression. My WS's Mother cheated on his father several times before she met 'the one'. She had been meeting him for sex for years before she ran off with him. WS always said 'She wasn't happy, my Father wasn't the right person for her' as if that justified her crappy behaviour. Well, fast forward 10 years and both WS and his brothers are cheaters. Doesn't take too much to figure out how they justified it to themselves.
MrsHellFire Posted June 8, 2006 Posted June 8, 2006 He told me that he intends to tell his daughters that that's how men are, they can expect this from their future partners, and its OK as long as he doesn't bring it home. That is so awful... I was going to elaborate in such a lengthy post, but it might hurt some people. But that is just scary...
grateful Posted June 8, 2006 Posted June 8, 2006 That is so awful... I was going to elaborate in such a lengthy post, but it might hurt some people. But that is just scary... I totally agree. My heart broke for his daughters when he told me that. I used to feel sorry for these acquaintances of mine, the women who know their husbands cheat serially, but I've come to accept that this is their decision. They know, like everyone in our social circle knows, what it is their husbands are doing. There is one woman I know who has no children or financial security with her husband. He is the worst of the bunch - doesnt even try to hide it, goes out publically with his OWomen. I stopped feeling sorry for the women because this is their choice, for whatever reason. I don't understand it but I accept that serial cheating is not an issue for them. I'm confused... who would you have hurt in a lengthier post? Not me, I'm sure, since I agree with you that what this man intends to do is really awful. I hope that was clear from my original post.
Chump64 Posted June 8, 2006 Posted June 8, 2006 My question I guess would be to women out there who has a spouse who has affair after affair. Why do you stay?????????? Just curious. Stillafool – I still think this is an odd forum to pose this question, if you truly are curious. It seems like you are asking the OW for their perceived views on this, vs. wives who might really be in this situation. Although I must say -- I haven’t seen many (any?) posters on the “Infidelity” forum who admit to (knowingly) putting up with affair after affair.
RealityCheck Posted June 8, 2006 Posted June 8, 2006 My question I guess would be to women out there who has a spouse who has affair after affair. Why do you stay?????????? Just curious. Stillafool – I still think this is an odd forum to pose this question, if you truly are curious. It seems like you are asking the OW for their perceived views on this, vs. wives who might really be in this situation. Although I must say -- I haven’t seen many (any?) posters on the “Infidelity” forum who admit to (knowingly) putting up with affair after affair. Ummm..... OW's are also ex Wives......or still current Wives.... So I think it is an appropriate place to ask the question.
Chump64 Posted June 8, 2006 Posted June 8, 2006 That's true -- assuming the OW were also betrayed spouses (repeatedly) at some time in their lives.
zarathustra Posted June 8, 2006 Posted June 8, 2006 That's true -- assuming the OW were also betrayed spouses (repeatedly) at some time in their lives. I wasn't married to one but had a long term relationship with a serial cheater... as *gosh darnit* the OW - I found out through a friend he already had a GF 2 years after we started dating... prior to us dating he kept telling that he wasn't seeing anyone. I attract scum like flies on s***!
target-d Posted June 9, 2006 Posted June 9, 2006 I was just wondering why would a wife stay in a marriage when she knows her husband is cheating with other women? Even if they have children, why stay? Children know when something is wrong and they aren't happy when their mother and father aren't happy. If the W knows he cheats the children do too. I'm so sick of hearing from MM "well I'm staying for the sake of the children". No they aren't they are staying for themselves. Is it a good role model for children to see their mom mistreated? I don't think so. BTW, in the situation I'm talking about there is no OW but other women. He is very honest and no one is waiting for him to leave his W. He's into one night stands, seeing different people in every city, etc. No one is waiting for him to leave his W. Stillafool, your msgs aren't meshing for me. In the beginning this sounded like you were talking about your MM. The more people who posted about the wife loving the husband, the more you distanced yourself from the situation, and the worse the man sounded. Could you please explain? Is this your situation, someone you know or simply a general question about a general situation?
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