Another Love but not IN Love Story

[DesperateDad]

No, I haven't read it yet, but I'll see if I can find it in the library. I don't have a lot of time for reading right now, so is this the best one to start with? I can't spend much money on books right now, either, but I'd like to get a hold of and read anything that might help in my situation. Do you have any other recommendations?

 

I'm kind of worried about not being firm enough with regard to the OM, but I've got to be careful. I got carried away the other night and I just don't want it to happen again.

 

I'm really trying to stay conscious of the whole Love Bank idea and try to only make deposits. I just hope the other night didn't empty her account. We're at least cordial today and she did hug me yesterday.

[DesperateDad]

I'm totally getting mixed signals from my wife. We're starting therapy next week and she still doesn't know whether she's going to keep an open mind about it. She still seems really worried about going to counseling, like it will force her to give up her dreams and reconsider.

 

Yesterday, I was back in Plan A mode and said some really nice things to her. She noticed this and other changes in my behavior and mentioned that if THIS (my behavior) was the therapy then... But, she stopped herself before completing the thought.

 

I don't know. We're still at an impasse over the OM. She isn't talking to him in front of me any more and is coming to bed instead of staying up so late (yes, we still sleep in the same bed, but also have the baby with us). She did tell me when I got home, that just so I know, he was over here with his kids for a few minutes yesterday.

 

I get the feeling she's kind of stringing along their relationship (which he still seems to think is an innocent friendship) and discounting my feelings as just jealousy and paranoia.

 

She's admitted to me that she's not being honest with him about the problems their relationship is causing. When he finds out, how can he maintain even a friendship with her? He's just ending a relationship based on lies and terrible communication. This has become just another one. The writing is on the wall.

 

She's also deleting her myspace account and her instant messenger she's used with him and other internet friends. I asked her why last night and she told me it was so I would trust her. I told her that I respected and appreciated what she was doing and didn't say anything else. No fight.

 

Things are definitely changing and seem to be tipping in my favor, but I do realize things could still go either way.

 

I also spoke with an attorney yesterday who helped me feel a bit better about things. He has lots of experience with this and agreed that it would definitely be better to work things out and that it would be financially catastrophic for both of us. He told me to call him any time if I have questions or if I need to take/respond to any legal action.

 

Mz. P: Have you read Divorce Busting by Michele Weiner Davis? If not, does anyone know if that's a good book to read in my situation? I'm trying to quickly find one book that I can read right now that will help me do the right things and avoid the wrong ones. If anyone has any suggestions on this, please feel free to chime in.

[Ladyjane14]

Michele Weiner Davis has a website, and you can read excerpts from the book there. I haven't read it myself...just parts of it. I surfed her boards recently though, and even though I got the feeling that her approach is somewhat concilliatory to the WS, I think in some respects that's going to be appropriate in your situation. Your WW seems VERY stressed out, and it a little TLC might go a long, long way.

 

You might go by your local library and see what's available to you as well.

[Mz. Pixie]

She also (i think) has written a book or article called "Walk Away Wife Syndrome" google it and you can read what it says there. Pretty good stuff and I would say spot on where I was concerned.

[DesperateDad]

Thanks for the suggestions. I also ran across a book on amazon by Judy Bodmer called "When Love Dies: How to Save a Hopeless Marriage" that's written from the perspective of a woman who has fallen out of love with her husband, but decided to make it work. Has anyone heard of this one?

[mysticflea]

Hey man, I have the divorce busters book ny michelle whatever her name is. It is very hopeful and positive but its pretty much the same info you get on here. Plan A and Plan B basically. I gave it to my wife to read and she said it was trying to make her feel bad about putting her kids through this. It also point sout how a women will be worse off statistically speaking financially and in the power to raise her own kids by herself. It does have a last resort section that is basically, NC, NEW CLOTHES, HAIRCUT, its all available for free if you search the internet. Its cheap though, but all it did was raise my hopes, I think the truth is that no book or counsellor in the world can help because evry situation is so different from the next.

I,m looking for abook called, "how to save your marriage when the wife doesnt want to and she is out having fun and you are at home crying and she has barely any remorse and she looks beautiful and you miss her so much and nothing is working and you've tried everything and if this fails i will give you a million dollars guaranteed" I think its written by Dr Seuss!

[DesperateDad]

Mysticflea, you're too funny, man! I'm glad you can keep up a sense of humor through it all.

 

I'm looking less for a magic formula than for some good, steady inspiration. It's really hard for me to keep this up day by day when it's not returned. There are lots of times when I have to do it for the children entirely because I'm not able to muster much feeling for my wife. I know I still love her and that we can work things out, but it's hard to love when the feelings aren't returned or when you're getting mixed signals.

 

Your signature says it all: Just keep moving. When I can't feel much, I just have to go through the motions and make sure that I'm building good thought and behavior habits that will improve ME as a person.

 

It's funny that she's making all these changes in her life to get me to trust her, yet she is completely unwilling to show me any holes in her emotional armor. She says she doesn't want to be too nice to me because she doesn't want me to get my hopes up. I can feel this great resistance to ME. She just doesn't want to show me any emotion.

 

I can make it through this regardless, but I need to get back to working on myself while I'm doing Plan A.

 

 

I have another question for anyone who can offer more advice: do you have any recommendations as to how I should approach counseling? We start on Tuesday and I'm scared that she'll just say her piece and he'll send us home. I know I can't control her in any way, but is there an attitude or strategy I should approach this with?

[dgiirl]

I have another question for anyone who can offer more advice: do you have any recommendations as to how I should approach counseling? We start on Tuesday and I'm scared that she'll just say her piece and he'll send us home. I know I can't control her in any way, but is there an attitude or strategy I should approach this with?

 

I think you'll get the most out of counselling if you go in with NO expectations and be completely honest. Good luck!

[Ladyjane14]

I think you'll get the most out of counselling if you go in with NO expectations and be completely honest. Good luck!

 

Agreed. It's essential to be honest. I had a tendancy to want to protect my husband and downplay things a bit. But your counselor can't help you when you aren't putting all the cards on the table.

 

 

p.s. Try not to do all the talking. It might put your WW on the spot a bit, but make her choose her own words.

[DesperateDad]

Good advice, dgiirl and LJ. I definitely tend to be a talker (does it show? LOL), but if I let her try to explain herself and what's going on, then maybe the counselor will be able to splash a little cold water on her. I'm also completely open to owning up to my mistakes and faults, too. I've become a much better father over the years (still got a lot of work to do there), but I haven't become a better husband or even considered that I needed to until the last few weeks. Again, my eyes have been opened to a lot things.

[Ladyjane14]

I saw your post on another thread, and I just wanted to remind you that.... YOU aren't getting deposits to your own love bank right now. It's going to make it very challenging for you over the course of time to exercize patience.

 

There are a couple of things you can do about that. The first of which is to take superlative care of yourself. You need to be eating right, sleeping right, and getting the appropriate amount of exercize.

 

Next, I think it'll help you if you make a concerted effort NOT to internalize your wife's problems. You've already taken a frank appraisal of whatever deficits you've brought to the marriage table. You've addressed your issues, and made changes. Her issues are just that....hers. You can't take them personally.

 

So, let her feel her own emotions...and while it's okay to sympathize...you don't want to feel them with her. Adopting her emotionalism is only going to make your job more difficult, because you'll absorb her anger and frustration like a sponge.

 

What you want....is more TIME. The longer you can stretch for time, the better your chances of recovery. And part 'stretching for time' is keeping your love for your wife alive.

 

It's true that she's not making deposits to the love bank, so your love supply is limited. But you don't have to let her take a sledge hammer to it either. This is a matter of perspective. When you see her as acting out on her own issues, rather than as a personal attack against you....you move your love bank out of harm's way.

[DesperateDad]

Once again I have to thank you, LJ. I've been thinking a lot lately that this is going to take a while. I want to end up being better for it all. No question. I'm working on getting back to working out every day and doing some things for me that I've put off for a long time.

 

My wife talks about everthing she's given up for me and the children over the years and I realized that I've given up just as much. I don't do much of what I used to love and that's part of why I've been unhappy for a while, too. Of course, my unhappiness has made me much less attractive to my wife.

 

I also need some space. I've been obsessing about this constantly for weeks now and I'm emotionally exhausted. I need to get excited about life again.

 

For an update, today has been a good day. We've spoken together well and actually been pretty affectionate with each other. She has remarked several times just today that I'm becoming the person she always thought I would be and that she's really noticed the changes.

 

Unfortunately, she still feels the same. I didn't really expect this to change so soon, but we'll see how things play out. She actually told me tonight that she had counted off positive things about me today and that I was a real 'catch.' Of course, she had to temper that statement by reminding me that her feelings had changed.

 

It's a weird place to be in life. I agree that I have to protect my self from losing the love that I have. I plan on getting out a bit more and socializing as well as focusing on my own interests. It's still really hard to do with so many kids, but I don't want to lose myself in this process and still be left. I would be a mess.

 

It still looks like we have time, but I have to work on myself and get control over my own life as soon as possible so I won't get my ass handed to me in the end.

 

Thanks again for all the great advice, Ladyjane. Your words of wisdom in particular have helped to change my whole outlook on life.

[DesperateDad]

Oh, and has anybody ever heard this one: she said tonight that she's not having a midlife crisis but a midlife AWAKENING. I know she thinks something cosmic is going on, but I'm not too sure about that...

[Ladyjane14]

Oh, and has anybody ever heard this one: she said tonight that she's not having a midlife crisis but a midlife AWAKENING. I know she thinks something cosmic is going on, but I'm not too sure about that...

 

Foggy people are kind of funny...when they're not crushing your still-beating heart beneath their boot heel anyhow.

 

If nothing else, they provide us with occasional reassurance that it's definitely THEM and not us who has a problem with their noodle.

[CryingCanuck]

just lurking not much to report on my thread

[DesperateDad]

We have had a good day today so far. I surprised my wife with breakfast in bed and some nice stuff for Mother's Day. She seemed really surprised and pleased and thanked and complimented me repeatedly.

 

I have to say, I'm proving to myself that I CAN do a lot of things that used to seem so difficult to me. I CAN be romantic. I CAN make plans and stick to them. I CAN take care of a bunch of kids and deal with a bedwetting, 'help' in the kitchen, loud voices, diaper changes, and making a nice breakfast without tipping off the sleeping wife.

 

There is no way in hell the neighbor guy could compete with me on a level field. In fact, I think I could beat him with one hand tied behind my back. Part of it is because he still has lots of issues that he's probably not even aware of yet. I'm way ahead because I'm realizing that I've got problems and I'm attempting to deal with them systematically.

 

I felt like superdad this morning. I've even got more planned for my wife's birthday this week. She's been reacting in a really pleased way and keeps apologizing for how she feels right now. It's interesting that I'm hearing her say 'right now' a lot lately.

 

LJ, you're right again about the fogtalk. I can see that I've been in a fog myself quite a few times in my life. I also realized while listening to my wife, REALLY listening and not making comments or any judgments at all (Plan A), that she really does have some things to work on. I think it will hit her eventually that some of her own behaviors have greatly contributed to the problems she's facing now.

 

So, I'm still taking it day by day, but today I definitely feel more confident and in control. Regardless of how this turns out, I feel like I'm turning a corner and I'll be forever changed for the better.

 

Thanks for checking in, Canuck. It definitely sucks to be in a limbo where things aren't moving much one way or the other. Sometimes it feels like it would be better to just have some closure to the whole thing, whether good or bad.

[Mz. Pixie]

I have to say, I'm proving to myself that I CAN do a lot of things that used to seem so difficult to me. I CAN be romantic. I CAN make plans and stick to them. I CAN take care of a bunch of kids and deal with a bedwetting, 'help' in the kitchen, loud voices, diaper changes, and making a nice breakfast without tipping off the sleeping wife.

 

There is no way in hell the neighbor guy could compete with me on a level field. In fact, I think I could beat him with one hand tied behind my back. Part of it is because he still has lots of issues that he's probably not even aware of yet. I'm way ahead because I'm realizing that I've got problems and I'm attempting to deal with them systematically.

 

I felt like superdad this morning. I've even got more planned for my wife's birthday this week. She's been reacting in a really pleased way and keeps apologizing for how she feels right now. It's interesting that I'm hearing her say 'right now' a lot lately.

 

 

 

That's the way to look at it baby! That's progress!

[DesperateDad]

Thanks, Mz. P. After Sunday, though, Monday always comes. Today it's pouring outside and the kids are inside driving my wife nuts. She's called me several times today to complain about the kids acting up and not listening.

 

This happens a lot, or used to when she talked to me more. In fact, she called me back once just to tell me that this was why she didn't talk to me, because I would always bring up later on what a poor mother she is.

 

I don't think I've ever said that to her and I wouldn't. I think she's a damn good mom. She's just really stressed out lately by the kids. The last couple of years have been like this. Lots of little kids and messes and no relief.

 

I know it's really hard to be a mom with a bunch of energetic little ones, but how do I deal with this? I'm trying to stick with 'I understand' and I haven't been getting upset at all even though she is very cold and angry in her tone.

 

My only mistake was to say that it would get better. I got the 'how long do I have to wait for it to get better' speech again. I can't possibly tell her 'until the younger ones are in school.' Even though this is completely true and she knows it, it doesn't help to try to reason with her when she's angry.

 

The weekends have been generally very good lately. I've been around to do a lot of the work and take some of the load off of her. During the week, though, is when she gets extemely stressed, angry and depressed. It's these times when she wants to talk to the neighbor the most.

 

I see a pattern here. He definitely IS her escape. It does seem that she's getting more stressed during the week now that she's talking to him a bit less.

 

We used to argue a lot about her complaints about the kids. It always seemed to me like a personal assault on me. I used to ask her if I should quit my job so I could watch the kids. That only made her more angry.

 

So, I know what doesn't work here; what DOES work? How should I deal with these types of complaints?

[dgiirl]

Since I dont have kids, I dont really know what to suggest, but maybe you can do something to surprise her tonight? Maybe bring supper home, or take her out for dinner? Go to The Body Shop and buy her some bubble bath girly stuff and run the bath tonight and let her soak in it while you take care of the kids for a few hours? I know you do your fair share, but if she's trying to escape from reality, then maybe she just needs some spontaineity?

 

She might not trust it at first, just dont let it faze you. If you dont get defensive, the guilt will eat at her, and hopefully then she'll appreciate it.

 

Also, maybe SHE is feeling she's not a good mother and so she is projecting that onto something you said. You should comment a few times that you think she's a really good mother.

[Ladyjane14]

So, I know what doesn't work here; what DOES work? How should I deal with these types of complaints?

 

You could always send her out to get a job. She can either pay the nanny directly from the proceeds or pay it to YOU as child support....and then you can pay the nanny.

 

Honestly...is this the ONLY woman in America who doesn't know where babies come from? It takes two, you know. She's got what?....six kids? And this was apparently all YOUR idea, and she didn't have any say in it, right?

 

Patience is a great thing, and it's a good thing Dgiirl has some today....'cause I'm running short!

[DesperateDad]

Thanks to you both for your suggestions. I'm really trying to be patient and make things easier for her. In lucid moments she says she doesn't blame me for anything and that it's not about ME at all. When she's angry, it seems like it IS all about me. I don't know.

 

I wonder how much a nanny costs. I've thought before it would be nice to be able to have someone come a couple of days a week and help with the kids or help clean up around the house. Is this something that's possible for a regular middle class family to afford? And would it really help things at all?

 

I also wonder if a job would help her. In a way I think it would, but wouldn't it also be more opportunity for her to hang out with people of the opposite sex and have more of the same thing happen? It's funny, I never really worried about that before. I never felt like I had to.

[Mz. Pixie]

Gosh, DD. A nanny would probably be pretty expensive but perhaps you guys could qualify for some daycare help in your state? With six kids surely you could. You would need to check on that- some states allow you to get daycare and pay on an income level.

 

I do think a job would help her be productive and keep her mind from focusing on what she doesn't have rather than what she does have.

 

With a job- you finish a project and you move on to the next project. You see completion. With motherhood you usually don't see your results until much later on. That's why it's hard. I read a book one time that said every part of your life is a season. It was written by a woman who had six kids (wish I could remember the name) and at times her and her husband would have to hire a babysitter and get a hotel room to just GET SOME SLEEP. But she realized that this was her "season of toddlerhood" and that she only had this opportunity to do this and soon it would be over.

[SoleMate]

Heyy, DD. Please try some "empathetic listening". When she complains about the 6 kids driving her bonkers, you do NOT try to minimize or rationalize. AT ALL. Instead, you fully get behind and echo her statements.

 

HER: The kids are driving me bonkers yada yada yada.

 

YOU: It sounds like you're really having a rough day. They are a handful and then some! They would drive anyone around the bend. I don't blame you one bit for being fed up. It's unbelievable that the electrician let you down. Nobody gives good service anymore. The neighbor across the alley certainly has been unreasonable. Yes, it IS a shame that I don't earn enough money for us to afford X. That certainly is disappointing, and you do deserve better. You've done an amzaing job with the resources we have available. Etc.

 

Try it...it is magic. You'll find that when you supply all the negative, downer statements and complaints, SHE'LL be forced into the role of minimizing and rationalizing. She does NOT want to hear your rationalizations or feel-good statements - that much should be clear to you by now. Instead, she wants you to ACKNOWLEDGE and SYMPATHIZE. Caveats: Don't criticize her and do not get led into personal attacks on you.

 

Please read more about this in The Feeling Good Handbook by David Burns.

 

P.S. You may think your wife "never wanted to be a mother", but frankly, I know I could never endure what she is going through. Two kids spaced 7 years apart nearly did me in. You may not agree, but if the kids get fed, dressed, washed, and loved, my hat is off to her. And I'm sure you are a pretty OK guy as well. Just that your marital r/s needs a bit of adjustment.

[feistybutloving]

You may have made a few mistakes and she needs to realize that.

I know she's hurt but 2 wrongs don't make a right. You need to communicate with her write to her daily put it in her car put it on her pillow or in the kitchen let her know you still love her, want her, and need her. She loves and needs you, and doesn't want you to leave. You two have to much invested you've been together a long time and have children together. Besides she knew you had lots going on school, teaching and working you both became overwhelmed and let it get the best of you.

 

 

 

Good Luck!!

[DesperateDad]

Thank you all for your advice. Neither of us wants to put the kids in daycare. We want to be the ones raising our kids, at least for the first few years or until they get into school.

 

SoleMate: I have tried that approach, but maybe not to the extent you're describing. I'll work on it.

 

Last night she asked me point blank what I was willing to do to give her the money that she wanted to live on. She said what are you doing now and that she didn't want to hear any plans or anything that I wasn't currently doing.

 

I told her that we would have to live within a budget. It was that simple. But, that's not good enough for her. She wants more. I said so did I, but it wasn't something that was going to happen right now.

 

And about working: she is insistent that she doesn't want to work and that she shouldn't have to. She's very resentful of me 'making' her work one day a week a couple of years ago. I have pointed out before that people around us are almost all two income families and that we're doing pretty damn well for one income. I didn't say anything about her working this time, though.

 

She'd been reading an article in a magazine called "Buh-Bye, Mr. Wrong!" and it's still laying down on the table right here as I type. She's always reading magazine articles about relationships.

 

When she had her myspace page, it was covered with all of these 'insights' and 'revelations' about her from taking quizzes on other web sites. There were all these platitudes about love and life scattered all over it, too, like 'you are this' and 'you are that.' This stuff kills me; it's like fortune cookies. How are you going to live your life and make decisions based on that crap? Fantasy.

 

When we initially started talking about our relationship a few weeks ago, she kept sending me all these little sayings about love, like 'true passion is as easy as breathing.' This was supposed to mean that it was too hard to love me. Who says life/love/relationships are supposed to be easy?

 

She's still living in a total fantasy world and totally denying it. I'm hoping counseling may splash a little cold water on her. It's tedious listening to all of this about her finally finding and being her 'true' self. The only person who seems to prop her up in believing all this stuff is the neighbor guy. Go figure.

 

Incidentally, I haven't caught her talking to him in a few days. She's been going to bed earlier, too. At least that's a positive. It's funny, though, now she's getting back into working on her genealogy and so, guess who's totally into genealogy all of a sudden? Everything that she gets interested in, I find out HE's interested in. It kind of makes me laugh that he's so pathetic. Why can't she see that? Or does she?

 

Hi feisty. What you're saying is mostly true. I don't want to smother her with affection right now, though. She has reacted well to a certain amount, but it's got to be fairly minimal or she gets upset.

 

I've thought a lot about what she's said, that she 'knows' she can do better than me and I think it's total crap. Obviously, I'm not perfect, but many women would think she's crazy for wanting to leave a guy like me, especially with the changes I'm making now. So, when is she going to wake up?