Billy Bob Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 I've told her she can't have it both ways. Until we are free and clear and no longer married, I don't want this guy around. He is my enemy forever. I won't waiver on that ever again. I don't know that it's time to start digging trenches yet. We still have a small opportunity to work things out if she stays away from the OM. We can at least be amicable in parting if she still decides she wants to, but it will make things more difficult if I take a heavy hand in trying to control things right now. I'd rather show her that I still have trust in her, that is in everything but the OM. Last night I was in bed and saw her chatting on her computer and it started bothering me. You know, my spidey sense was tingling. I got up and said, "Tell ___ that just proves what kind of man he is." She was silent for a minute and then began to tell me that I was being unreasonable as my son was playing at the OM's house today and she wanted to thank him. I said, "For ten minutes?" She said she'd only just gotten on and then admitted to asking him how he was. WTF DD? You keep saying that you have drawn the line? That you won't tolerate contact between her and the other man? But she keeps rubbing your face in it, and you must keep making excuses as to why its OK, or rationalizing that she hasn't kept crossing the line. You and I both know she is going to be on the phone multiple times of the day with him today if they don't actually spend time together! After another long discussion with her trying to convince me that she was right and I was wrong, a hypocrite, etc. she ended up with the assertion that I'm just upset because she has an option other than me now and that she would have divorced me sooner had she had the money. What planet are you living on? She's telling you this to your face and your willing to accept it and keep fighting for her? Why the hell do you want someone who treats you like this? Have you forgotten what it is like to actually have someone in love with you. I think you have brainwashed yourself or are in a big state of denial. Why are you fighting over her like she is a prize? There is probably some sweetheart out there, 5 years younger, better looking than your wife, who would love you unconditionally, but your going to stay and fight for a woman who is treating you like dogs*** right to your face. OK, sorry for being so blunt..but if your trying to woo her back by letting her walk all over you still. Isn't going to work. Tough love if you want her back. Again, I'd file and make her sweat, let her make good on her claims that she has an option other than you! She is sooo in control of you, you don't even see it. When you draw a line, stand by it. Sorry, you just can't (and she won't either) respect a man who doesn't stand up for what he believes in. Your waffling and it shows that you don't respect yourself and she won't respect you.
Gunny376 Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 DD ~ figured you could use something to smile and laugh about ~ just to help you keep your sense of humor. It's The Truth A married man meets a lovely young lady in a local bar. After a few too many drinks, they take a cab to her place and have sex, after which he doses off. At 1:30 a.m., he wakes up in a panic and gets dressed. Not knowing how he is going to explain himself, he goes into her bathroom and gets some baby powder and spreads it all over his pants. When he gets home his wife is waiting and she is furious. He says, "Honey, I can explain. I know after last time I promised you I would never lie to you again, so here is the truth. I went to have a beer on the way home and met this beautiful young woman. We got drunk, took a cab to her place, had sex, and I fell asleep." She looks him up and down and she says, "You lying son of a b*tch, you've been playing pool for money again."
Billy Bob Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 OK, I am going to post this again Its that old saying "you want what you can't have". If she knows she can have the OM and can't have (losing) you, then the situation has become entirely reversed. I think when you reach the point of truely not caring, she'll recognize she's losing you and then you'll have to decide whether you want her back. And if she doesn't, then your still in a better place for yourself. Right now you keep telling her that you'll work it out, you keep waffling on your boundaries, she is still leading you around like a puppy on a leash. You are not going to get any resolutions until you take away her safety net. I still think you should just file D and stop telling her she can't see the OM. Believe me things will change when this happens. If this is some kind of game she is playing, she will stop/make ammends at this point because she will realize her actions are having real consequences. If its not a game and she is madly in-love with the OM, then you have saved yourself many more months of making a fool out of yourself.
Ladyjane14 Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 It's The Truth A married man meets a lovely young lady in a local bar. After a few too many drinks, they take a cab to her place and have sex, after which he doses off. At 1:30 a.m., he wakes up in a panic and gets dressed. Not knowing how he is going to explain himself, he goes into her bathroom and gets some baby powder and spreads it all over his pants. When he gets home his wife is waiting and she is furious. He says, "Honey, I can explain. I know after last time I promised you I would never lie to you again, so here is the truth. I went to have a beer on the way home and met this beautiful young woman. We got drunk, took a cab to her place, had sex, and I fell asleep." She looks him up and down and she says, "You lying son of a b*tch, you've been playing pool for money again." :lmao: :lmao: Good one!!!
Ladyjane14 Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 WTF DD? You keep saying that you have drawn the line? That you won't tolerate contact between her and the other man? But she keeps rubbing your face in it, and you must keep making excuses as to why its OK, or rationalizing that she hasn't kept crossing the line. You and I both know she is going to be on the phone multiple times of the day with him today if they don't actually spend time together! This is fairly normal WS behavior, Cta. The 'line in the sand' is a new development. DD has been encouraging NC, but he hasn't demanded it up until now. Of course, his WW doesn't want to comply. She's naturally going to resist. But she hasn't REFUSED, and that's the important bit. When it comes to NC, WS's will 'fall off the wagon' more than once before they get it right. It's common. The infatuation with the OP is strong. It's emotional, but it's physiological as well. For the BS.... it's like dealing with a crack addict. And even the most motivated among WS will occasionally cave in during the initial withdrawal period. It's not something DD should base his decisions on right now. Is it disrespectful? Yes. Should he remind her that NC is essential? Yes. Should he file for divorce? No. Not until it suits his own purposes to do so. The marriagebuilders method sometimes goes against the grain. But I honestly believe that it's the best plan available. It requires alot of patience and emotional sacrifice. But for the BS who is determined to give his family the best possible shot at recovery.... it's the best game in town. And I say "game" facetiously. It's not a game. Game-playing is duplicitous. DD is always being honest in his dealings with his WW. He's not telling lies. But he is required to occasionally play his cards close to his chest. He's having to put a good foot forward, even though sometimes he might be feeling down and blue. But still.... that's not the same as giving bogus information. If he wants the marriage, his message is ALWAYS the same.... "I want the marriage".
Billy Bob Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 But she hasn't REFUSED, and that's the important bit. Uhh? What do you mean she hasn't "refused" NC? How is that important? Did she ever agree to NC? She is still in contact with him, as far as I have read nothing has changed? DD can keep wasting his time playing these games, but nothing is going to change untill she has to face the hard consequences of her actions. It's apparent that no matter how crappy she treats DD that hes going to want her back (he's like a crack addict). DD could probably catch them f***ing and he'd still turn the other way and make excuses. Jeeze, she told him yesterday that she had "an option other than me now and that she would have divorced me sooner had she had the money." OK DD, you can keep going through this crap for months and months if you want, but in my opinion your wasting your time at this point with plan A. Should he file for divorce? No. Not until it suits his own purposes to do so. In my opinion, if he wants her back, he has to let her know he is serious. She does not take him serioulsy now, she is in control and he is wrapped around her little finger. I think filing does suite his purpose. #1 it shows her that he is serious, he can tell her that he's willing to work on the marriage before the divorce goes final (usually takes like 3-6 months+?) and rip up the paperwork if they can resolve their issues. #2 It pops her bubble, she is going to have to face reality, there is a divorce clock ticking.. She can't keep playing in her fantasy world. #3 It gives DD back control. He is in control of her destiny now. She has to appease him if she wants his safety net. She has to make an effort to preserve her family/home. I'd file, tell her I still love her but can't live like this. If she wants to save the marriage, she needs to quit the OM entirely, she needs to arrange joint marriage counseling. She needs to be sure she's in love with me and no one else. I'd proceed with the divorce filing until I was sure things had turned around. Put everything on her shoulders for once. If after 3-6 months she still can't quit the OM, then DD can walk away, everything finalized and get on with his life.
Billy Bob Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 Should he remind her that NC is essential? Yes. LJ, what for? She has not indicated that she wants to save the marriage in any way. She still wants a divorce and is in-love with the OM. I'd agree with everything you said if she was making any attempt at salvaging the marriage. Correct me if I'm wrong DD, but my understanding is that she is not even hinting that she may want to quit the OM and make it work with you. As far as I have read she wants a divorce, is still in-love with the OM, but is just not feel she is in the financial situation to do so yet. She is not telling DD that she and the OM are just friends, she has said she is in-love with him, does not want to scare him away, would choose him over her husband, not in-love with DD anymore, wants a divorce.. Whats the point in telling her that NC is essential, that would only matter if she wanted to save the marriage, which she doesn't.
Billy Bob Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 DD, how far is too far with you? If you get hard proof that they are having a physical affair (i.e. your wife is blowing and screwing the scumbag tatooed x-marine?) are you still going to continue with plan A and try and fill her emotional needs? Why do you think they have not been physical? At this point you caught her kissing him, she's had plenty of alone time with him while you are away, she's "in-love" with him, she would choose him over your marriage, she wants a divorce... Ask any of the women (or men) on LS that have had this type of involvement/affair how many were physical and how many of the spurned spouses we're in denial. If you do get your wife back make sure she gets tested for STDs.. I sure wouldn't trust a guy like a scumbag x-marine with a bunch of tats to be STD-free (not inferring anything about all the good marines Gunny), I imagine he wouldn't even bother telling your wife if he had the occasional herpes sore or wart.
Billy Bob Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 I liked this quote from "Love Must Be Tough" author Dr. James C. Dobson; Question: As a counselor, have you ever been concerned that exercising the concept of “tough love” in a marital crisis could potentially kill the marriage? Answer: First, you need to understand how I see my situation. My role is similar to that of a surgeon who tells a patient that he needs a coronary-artery-bypass operation. The man sits in his doctor's office, hearing the probabilities of success and failure. "If you undergo this operation," the doctor says, "research shows you'll have a 3 percent chance of not surviving the surgery." Wow! Three out of every hundred people who submit to the knife will die on the table! Why would anyone run that risk voluntarily? Because the chances of death are far greater without the surgery. The "love must be tough" confrontations and ultimatum are like that. They may result in the sudden demise of a relationship. But without the crisis, there is a much higher probability of a lingering death. Instead of bringing the matter to a head while there is a chance for healing, the alternative is to stand by while the marriage dies with a whimper. I'd rather take my chances today, before further damage is done. A blowout is better than a slow leak.
Ladyjane14 Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 LJ, what for? She has not indicated that she wants to save the marriage in any way. She still wants a divorce and is in-love with the OM. WS's say TERRIBLE things when they're deep in the fog of their infatuation. For the recovered WS, these end up being things that they deeply regret. More often than not, a FWS is flabbergasted that they actually said such awful things. They can't identify with the person they were while they were intoxicated from their affair. Every now and then, you'll even run across one who genuinely doesn't even remember some of it. Generally, those are MLC guys, who are under the influence of midlife depression though. Part of Plan A is negotiating with the WS for no contact with the OP. In Plan A, the BS will assume that contact is ongoing. If NC can be established, and the subsequent withdrawal phase managed.... sometimes Plan B will become unnecessary. That would be a GOOD THING for DD due to his financial and housing situation. Once the OP is off the grid, Plan A really takes off. The WS begins to see that there's nothing intrinsically wrong with the BS. In fact, he's a pretty good guy. As the effects of the infatuation wear off, staying in the marriage begins to look like a better alternative to the chaos of divorce. This is all a process though. It takes patience, and it's not guaranteed to be successful. Working through a female midlife crisis is hard on a man's self-esteem, so patience is at a premium. But if he can go the distance, it can pay off. She won't be like this when she's in her 40's. Her problems are more immediate rather than permanent. She's overwhelmed in her maternal role and underdeveloped as an individual due to her responsibilities. She's looking for answers outside the marriage. But if she can hold on and make it through the crisis.... she'll have a BIG, HAPPY FAMILY someday. DD loves her and he loves his family. He wants to give her a chance to turn it around. That's a noble goal. It doesn't make him a weak individual in MY eyes.....quite the opposite, actually.
Ladyjane14 Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 You're right about bringing things to a head though. Eventually, that needs to be done. That would be Plan B. Optimally, he'll want to give Plan A enough time to do it's thing. Six months is about average. She's not going anywhere, and there's been no essential change in the relationship dynamic that would cause him to initiate Plan B yet.
Gunny376 Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 WW ~ no children CTA WW ~ stepchild, no children of his own→CTA WW with one child→ CTA? WW with more than one child→CTA? WW with six children? → Lady Jane!
Author DesperateDad Posted June 23, 2006 Author Posted June 23, 2006 Thank you both, cta and LJ. You've both given me good advice. There is definitely a time and a place for an ultimatum, but I don't feel like I've reached it yet. I've been so wishy-washy for so long that want to see what effect a firm stance on the OM issue has for at least a couple of weeks. cta, she's claiming that they really ARE just friends, 'best friends.' She's also got a bunch of people watching over them who would notice if there was a physical thing going on. My 15yo step-daughter is home most of the time during the day and would notice something. She told me recently that he has only come over for a few minutes at a time a couple of times a week and always stays outside. My wife swears this is not a physical thing and that she doesn't know if they can really have a relationship more than just friendship. I don't like this one bit, but I'm pretty damn sure they aren't screwing. Anyway, there are lots of nosy neighbors around during the day watching for anything to gossip about, too. My wife's desperate because she's unhappy and she's looking for any options other than just facing reality and dealing with what she already has. She knows things will get better with time, but says she doesn't want to keep waiting. She also knows she's got issues, but thinks most of it will just get better when I'm out of the picture. Typical WAW stuff. Our conversations are really strange lately because she throws in all this stuff about how will she be sure I'll never cheat again or how will she be sure I'll never turn back into the angry, depressed guy that I've been or how can she be sure we'll do better financially. There are all these questions thrown out that indicate that she's really not 100% sure about splitting. She's so stubborn, though, that she doesn't want to take back what she said. Having an option open, even one that really looks crappy, makes her feel less trapped. Ultimately, I think if she really lets the OM go, her anger and pain will subside and she'll start to see things more clearly. Like LJ said, I just want to give it an honest effort to save my family. If it doesn't work out, I'll know that I tried as hard as I could to do the right thing and eventually my children will know that I fought to keep their family together. I don't ever want them to ask me why I didn't fight for them.
Billy Bob Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 Optimally, he'll want to give Plan A enough time to do it's thing. Six months is about average. She's not going anywhere, and there's been no essential change in the relationship dynamic that would cause him to initiate Plan B yet. I personally think he's tried plan A for long enough, but if he can handle going say another 3-4+ months or longer go for it. I personally would go crazy if my wife were having an emotional/physical affair right in front of me and rubbing it in my face. I'm sorry at this point I would start looking out for my own well-being and stop worrying about her. If this drags out until next Christmas, what are the chances DD will even have his job? He's already been called in for his job performance through all this (or was that a different thread?). Another risk he has dragging this out is that every day that goes by where she tells him she wants a divorce or that she loves the OM, blah blah blah.. his love for her keeps dying. I'd bet in 6 months if she decided to give it another go, DD will be so emotionally dead from her behavior the marriage will be essentually over anyway. Like Dobson said Instead of bringing the matter to a head while there is a chance for healing, the alternative is to stand by while the marriage dies with a whimper. Just my opinion, I think he needs to get tough while there is still a chance if he wants her back and for his own health.
Ladyjane14 Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 :laugh: You crack me up, Gunny!!! But yeah, I've go ZERO problem with telling a guy who hasn't got much on the line to go ahead and roll the dice. The future of SIX kids, all living on a shoestring budget is riding on this though. That's too much collateral damage. Better to play it out conservatively.
Gunny376 Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 Like LJ said, I just want to give it an honest effort to save my family. If it doesn't work out, I'll know that I tried as hard as I could to do the right thing and eventually my children will know that I fought to keep their family together. I don't ever want them to ask me why I didn't fight for them.[/quote] And, most of all to yourself. If it does go south, you can walk a way knowing that you've fought the good fight, did all that you could, and gave it your best ~ and that means a lot!
Gunny376 Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 a sucker or a fool, un-less you consciously un-aware of the act be prepertated upon you. This is not the case with you DD, because you're going into this wide eyes open, with good solid counsel behind you, from all angles ~ financially, emotionally, mentally, legally, etc. Its not as though you were standing on the track, and we're all over here screaming, shooting, waving red flags, setting off flares, blowing fog horns that the high noon express is coming ~ and you're about to get hit by a train, so you'd better get your azz off of the track! The choices that you are making are calculated, informed, and conscious!
Billy Bob Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 LJ vs CTA WW ~ no children CTA WW ~ stepchild, no children of his own→CTA WW with one child→ CTA? WW with more than one child→CTA? WW with six children? → Lady Jane! Stay together because of how many children they have? Come on Gunny!
Ladyjane14 Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 If this drags out until next Christmas, what are the chances DD will even have his job? He's already been called in for his job performance through all this (or was that a different thread?). Another risk he has dragging this out is that every day that goes by where she tells him she wants a divorce or that she loves the OM, blah blah blah.. his love for her keeps dying. I'd bet in 6 months if she decided to give it another go, DD will be so emotionally dead from her behavior the marriage will be essentually over anyway. That's what he's got LS for. We'll keep bolstering him up, letting him vent, and giving him a place to lay his worries down. My wife's desperate because she's unhappy and she's looking for any options other than just facing reality and dealing with what she already has. She knows things will get better with time, but says she doesn't want to keep waiting. She also knows she's got issues, but thinks most of it will just get better when I'm out of the picture. Typical WAW stuff. Our conversations are really strange lately because she throws in all this stuff about how will she be sure I'll never cheat again or how will she be sure I'll never turn back into the angry, depressed guy that I've been or how can she be sure we'll do better financially. There are all these questions thrown out that indicate that she's really not 100% sure about splitting. She's so stubborn, though, that she doesn't want to take back what she said. Having an option open, even one that really looks crappy, makes her feel less trapped. Ultimately, I think if she really lets the OM go, her anger and pain will subside and she'll start to see things more clearly. You're right. It's all typical babble. Don't let it rattle you. You're doing fine. You might want to have another read-through on Plan A & Plan B, so you can take note of negotiating for NC. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be strong in your stance. I think you should. But I don't want you to expect perfect NC yet. I think it's going to take some finagling until you can get her to stick with it.
Author DesperateDad Posted June 23, 2006 Author Posted June 23, 2006 You're right about bringing things to a head though. Eventually, that needs to be done. That would be Plan B. Optimally, he'll want to give Plan A enough time to do it's thing. Six months is about average. She's not going anywhere, and there's been no essential change in the relationship dynamic that would cause him to initiate Plan B yet. After two months of this, 6 months seems like an impossibly long time. I can hang in there for a while as long as the OM stays the F out of my space. I've told her I want absolutely NO CONTACT. I know it's hard with our children being friends and them living across the street, but he's indicated the situation is getting uncomfortable enough that they may consider moving sooner. The sooner the better. I honestly don't know at this point if my marriage can be saved, but LJ, you are completely right in saying that it can never be saved with the OM around. With him out of the picture for a couple of months, I'll be able to tell if there's anything left to save. My desire to salvage things is waning, but I need to give it more time before I file. Right now the situation is still pretty emotional. I've only just set that boundary and had her test it the once. I've only just taken over our finances. I need at least a few weeks to see how things are going to play out. cta, if I had no children, I'd have been outta there in a flash. If my children were all teens and up, I would probably have been more inclined to give up as they already would know me as their father and have good family memories. With five kids, 6, 4, 2, 2, and 1, the three youngest may not ever remember a Christmas with both mom and dad or the stability of living in a home with both parents. This is extremely important to me. (and BTW, I really do appreciate you caring enough to get angry for/at me. You, too, Mz. P!)
Billy Bob Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 DD, I'm just an advocate of plan B, Tough Love. Hey I realize you have a lot riding on this. Plan A works for some, plan B works for others. Just realize that every passing day that goes by and this doesn't get better lessens your chance for a successful marriage in the future. Believe me, at this point already you will never feel like you did about her again. Even though you want her back, this conflict is affecting you and your feelings towards her as well. Eventually you will go dead inside towards her. As I am saying the sooner you can pop her bubble the better, for both of you. Good luck.
Lollie72 Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 I wished that I lived in the la~la land you live in! It would be great! I'm just trying to give him an option to try another way to do so.
Author DesperateDad Posted June 23, 2006 Author Posted June 23, 2006 DD, I'm just an advocate of plan B, Tough Love. Hey I realize you have a lot riding on this. Plan A works for some, plan B works for others. Just realize that every passing day that goes by and this doesn't get better lessens your chance for a successful marriage in the future. Believe me, at this point already you will never feel like you did about her again. Even though you want her back, this conflict is affecting you and your feelings towards her as well. Eventually you will go dead inside towards her. As I am saying the sooner you can pop her bubble the better, for both of you. Good luck. You're totally right. I keep thinking the same thing because I can feel it happening. I don't feel the same way about her. Actually, I realize it's been some time since I've felt the same way about her, maybe about a year and a half or so. But, I don't feel like it's gone past the point of no return yet. My fear about pushing it is that I want to make sure the bubble regarding the OM is popped first so that I don't push her right into his arms. I know her well enough that once certain things happen it will be impossible to get back together. As long as we're in this house together, there's a chance. If one of us leaves, I don't think there's much chance at all of ever reconciling. I'm hoping there won't be a need for plan B. If plan A doesn't work, it might just have to be plan D.
Lollie72 Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 """""Our conversations are really strange lately because she throws in all this stuff about how will she be sure I'll never cheat again or how will she be sure I'll never turn back into the ANGRY, DEPRESSED guy that I've been or how can she be sure we'll do better financially""" Desperate Dad, pay close attention to your part in this mess, because in all honesty only you can change you/your will/and go to counseling to ensure that you don't do the things above that she's mentioning again. Take personal inventory, aplogize, and buy flowers, and give her space if she's needing it, I say....ask a counselor very quickly for advice and admit to her as part of your amends to contributing to this situation that your going into counseling and will ACTUALLY work on your ANGER(as I alluded to before) and you DEPREESSION(yes, it does affect others in your immediate house hold). Quit pretending as if pointing fingers at her, making demands(instead of requests) will somehow get you somewhere positive with her and START acting mature and like an appreciative spouse by buying flowers and writing reasons on long lists why you appreciate her and your grateful for HER in your life. :::::You get more bees with honey::::::
Ladyjane14 Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 After two months of this, 6 months seems like an impossibly long time. I don't know, DD. From where I sit, six months is a drop in the bucket. I've been married for a long time though. And having experienced marital recovery.... I've found it's a damn good place to be. Well worth the hassle. Just take it a day or two at a time, and see where it goes. You don't have to make a decision on it today. Don't forget, some of the same stressful factors that are affecting your wife, are also affecting you. 5 little babies and a hormonal teenager are going to make for a hectic home life. Throw in a wayward wife.... and hey, you're lucky if you know your own name most days, let alone what you want to do with the rest of your life. Hang in there, kiddo.
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