tallgirl Posted April 22, 2006 Posted April 22, 2006 My boyfriend and I have been together for a year. We knew very early on in our relationship that we would some day get married. So we had been looking at houses for a few months when we saw one that we liked. We just had our offer accepted and take possesion on July 7th. Here's the thing...I always told my boyfriend that we couldn't move in together unless we were at least engaged, and he agreed. Now that we have the house and we have been talking more about marriage, he has asked that i sign a prenuptial aggreement. He's not a millionare or anything, he's a plumber with a pension that he wants to protect. At first I thought he was kidding and when I found out that he was serious...my heart sank. This isn't how it's supposed to be. Honey will you marry me...oh ya...heres a pen could you also sign on the dotted line as well. I am so hurt, I just feel like he doesn't have faith in our relationship, that he is trying to compare something that happened to one of his co-workers to our relationship. He says that you can't predict the future and that he works hard for his money so if something WHERE to happen his hard earned money would be protected. I can't believe he would love me enough to want to marry me and say that he wants to spend his life with me, but not enough to trust me and have faith in me...in us. I feel like he doesn't think highley enough of me as a person that if something where to ever happen to us that I would want to go after his pension. If he hadn't brought it up, I probably wouldn't have thought about it for another 20 years. I need some advise, thoughts, comments...anything!
Art_Critic Posted April 22, 2006 Posted April 22, 2006 Well.. To start off.. if you both bought the house make sure that you both sign a right of surviorship on the house.. That way if either of you die then the other doesn't have to buy the other half of the house from the estate or from the family of the deceased Prenups can be good and bad.. I'm for them if both parties have assets to protect. If you do decide to sign one make sure that you have your own independant attorney look it over before you sign.. it will cost about 100.00 and that way you can make sure it is legally sound and fair for you.. They can be written to be unfair to the party signing and they never realize until after the marriage falls apart.
Author tallgirl Posted April 22, 2006 Author Posted April 22, 2006 Thanks for the tips. Although I don't understand if I am willing to risk my assets that I am bringing into the relationship by trusting him 100%, why is he having a hard time?
Art_Critic Posted April 22, 2006 Posted April 22, 2006 Some people may have a past history maybe where they got burnt.. You have a point.. this is where it becomes a double edged sword.. If you have a prenup are you saying that the marriage is doomed to fail .. or one person isn't in the marriage with both feet.. But at the same time if you have assets to protect it is also being responsible.. Remember that a prenup is normally only for a short time.. say 5 years .. because any marriage considered long term by a court or a marriage that includes children normally alters the prenup or invalidates it. That is why a prenup is hard to hold up in most courts unless the marriage was short term. A preup does not write you out of what you are rightfully due such as marital assets in the event of a divorce.. it only protects what you walk into a marriage with. For example any gains from his pension that acrue during the marriage may be considered a marital asset and therefore not considered by a prenup and you may be due a piece of it prenup or not.. but it would protect the amount of the pension he went into the marriage with. This is all why you need to seek your own attorney and have him look over any documents
Author tallgirl Posted April 22, 2006 Author Posted April 22, 2006 Thank-you this is all so fresh and some how your words are making me feel better! I quess instead of looking at him as being an insensative jerk, I can think of him as being responsible
Art_Critic Posted April 22, 2006 Posted April 22, 2006 You might also want to do a search here on LS.. this isn't the first thread on this .. in fact this one by Woggle is fairly new.. It might help to read some of the posters comments http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t81066/
Guest Posted April 22, 2006 Posted April 22, 2006 My husband was transferred with his job to another country, before we were married. He asked me to come be with him. This would have meant I would give up my job and go live in a foreign country with no job or legal status as his spouse. It was his idea that we sign a partnership agreement, to protect me until we were married. In the partnership agreement, it laid out what guarantees we each would have (airfare and shipment of personal belongings back to USA, etc.) if we broke up or did not marry before X date, and that certain assets would go to me if he died (to keep his ex from seizing everything and leaving me homeless until the estate was settled). He wanted my family not to worry about me. When we married, we didn't get a prenup, because financially we're pretty evenly matched. I would always recommend cohabiting partners sign a partnership agreement before living together -- DEFINITELY before buying a house together.
Curmudgeon Posted April 22, 2006 Posted April 22, 2006 Something else to consider. Under federal guidelines for a Qualified Domestic Relations Order (QDRO -- pronounced "quadro") you each begin to accumulate a community interest in one another's retirement funds upon marriage. The prenup merely protects before-acquired assets. Your community interest takes into consideration your own assets and any retirement fund you may have that is off-setting. In my experience, the ex I was married to for 25 years never worked outside the home (mother and housewife IS work). Therefore, when we divorced she received 50% of my retirement finds which had all been accumulated during the course of the marriage. I had no problem with that and considered the divorce cheap at twice the price. When I married my wife, she had her own retirement account (one of my "requirements" if I was ever to remarry). Therefore, were we to divorce, tapping into mine would not be an option. By all means, follow the advice you've been given and consult with an attorney before you sign anything.
OzGirl Posted April 22, 2006 Posted April 22, 2006 I think prenups are a good idea if you walk into a relationship with cash or assets of substantial value. What you accumulate AFTER that time would be considered mutually earnt and owned, etc, so is a separate story. If you have kids prior to marrying, I also think it's good to have in conjunction with your will advising you want your kids to be looked after, not the spouse who may remarry, etc. I wouldn't get married without a prenup. I worked too hard for what I have, and I'm not signing it over to anyone. It's part of my instinct to survive, and nothing to do with how much I love that person or not. Plus, no relationship is infallable. Once burnt, twice as shy, as they say. I think it's sensible and protects both of you. I wouldn't sign anything until I had independant legal advice on what I'm signing away to. And, I don't think it's remotely related to how much he loves you. One thing you can guarantee in life is that if no one else will, you always have yourself to look after yourself. That's all he's doing, I think - making himself comfortable with the financial decisions at this point, so that he can freely enjoy the relationship with you - for a long time - and not let money ever be something he wonders is related to you staying with him, and him staying with you. Money can be the catalyst for 99% of the world's problems - if you LET it. Don't let this bother you. Be glad you're with a man who's lovable for all the reasons you love, and he's smart enough to protect what he wants to protect. Chances are, this same sense of protection will be provided for you and (possibly???) your kids. That's a good thing. I doubt he'd have a problem with you getting it checked independantly.
HokeyReligions Posted April 22, 2006 Posted April 22, 2006 You may never really be able to understand his 'why' but understand that these are his feelings and its important to him. It doesn't mean you are giving anything up or that your committment to each other is less than 100% - its just a smart move. No matter how much in love you are or how committed you are to each other, the reality is that there is a huge percentage of divorces and if it ever does happen then you can both be protected - the prenup can, and IMO should, be for both of you. Think of it as personal insurance. Even people with little or no assets in the beginning can have assets later on and a good, fair prenup will establish rules and guidelines for splitting up future assets. You might inherit something very valuable at some time and if the marriage would ever fail you would be able to protect your assets. Great grandmas emerald ring should stay with you - not force you to sell it and share the return. Some couples will get a prenup together that will protect them both and it just becomes part of the marriage paperwork process. Have wills drawn up at the same time. With your concerns and fears -- all normal -- it might be a good idea to get some couples counseling to better understand and deal with the emotional issues associated with a prenup. You will both feel better about yourselves, each other, and as a couple.
shelters Posted April 22, 2006 Posted April 22, 2006 As long as you have an attorney look at the prenup, I think it is fine. I understand the feelings of prenups as being 'unromantic' and how it could prompt you to question whether your bf has faith in the relationship. The opposite could also be said... if you have faith in your relationship signing a fair prenup shouldn't be a problem.
Ladyjane14 Posted April 22, 2006 Posted April 22, 2006 He's not a millionare or anything, he's a plumber with a pension that he wants to protect. Is this an already existing pension? Or is he just beginning his career? If you are a mature couple, past child rearing, the prenup is probably a great idea. EACH of you should definately protect your assets. But if you're just starting out in life, and he's already concerned you're going to 'pluck him like a pigeon'.....dump him. Marriage gets harder not easier, so if he's already paranoid, that'll get worse not better. If you are young people and want to have a family, you don't need this axe hanging over your head. You'll always have to keep your money separate, and you'll always have to make sure that you are single-handedly making enough income to provide for you and your kids. Who needs that kind of aggravation when there are other men out there willing to 'step up to the plate' and commit themselves 100%.
Author tallgirl Posted April 22, 2006 Author Posted April 22, 2006 We are a young couple and it is a first marriage for both of us. He started working right after highschool so he does have some money built up in his pension, although I'm not sure how much. I do appreciate the advice, thanks!
Ladyjane14 Posted April 22, 2006 Posted April 22, 2006 I'm with Hokey....premarital counseling is definately the order of the day. I'll be honest with you, if I were in your shoes I probably wouldn't marry the guy at all. I have a fairly traditional view of marriage and family though. And I tend to look at "the family" as a single unit, whose health and happiness is paramount to all the members in it. When your fiance withholds his own financial destiny as separate from yours....it's stands to reason that he'll carry that philosophy through to be separate from that of your entire future family. (I think we could look at that differently if you each had prior assets to protect, but you two kids are just starting out in life.) I think what you'll want to decide is what kind of marriage you're looking for. If you're looking for a traditional marriage in which the family is prioritized as a unit....this is currently NOT the guy for you. Maybe he'll change his tune one day, but it's probably a mistake to NOT take him at face value when he's telling you very clearly he's not ready to make an investment. If you're looking for a partnership where two separate individuals are loosely affiliated in order to minimize their living expenses......he's your guy. Whatever you decide, don't have children until you get all your issues worked out. If your marriage is going to be all about what belongs to who, it'd be better to get the kids from a sperm bank. That way, at least you always know they're YOURS. No future hassles about custody issues. That's facetious....but hey, it makes as much sense as what your boyfriend is proposing!
Lennox Posted April 23, 2006 Posted April 23, 2006 I have a few questions for you. Do you work? What type of work do you do? Do you have a retirement account that you're paying into? Personally, I don't think marriage licenses should be issued without requiring pre-nuptual agreements as part of the process. It's wise of him to think about the future and prepare for it in the event that something wrong happens down the road. I think it would be wise of you to think along the same lines and make sure YOU'RE covered as far as protecting your assets and future down the road too. Since you're young, plan out your life independent of his finances. Don't rely on a man to secure your future, secure your own future. And make sure that whatever you plan out is protected with a pre-nup. With over 50% of marriages ending in divorce, you two will be doing yourselves a favor by having a pre-nup. Just remember that a pre-nup doesn't even matter in the long run if you guys never get divorced. You will share community assets until one of you dies in that case, then it will go to the surviving spouse. You also should know exactly how much he has in his retirement fund and know what type of benefits you'll receive if he passes before you.
SoleMate Posted April 23, 2006 Posted April 23, 2006 I agree that a prenup really seems to make sense only in the case of older people with serious assets, heirs/heiresses, or those with children. It's not that a prenup like the plumber BF wants is absolutely WRONG...but I would strongly urge the following: * The terms of the prenup should be jointly negotiated, based on your shared goals for your shared future * The terms of the prenup should protect BOTH of you (sounds like he was thinking one sided) * Think about what happens down the road, if one of you gains greatly in earning power, wins the lottery, becomes disabled, etc. * Discuss the value that he places on whatever role you will be holding * Ask him what the fair divorce settlement is if the wife has always worked at home, without pay, caring for the children and home, by the choice of both husband and wife, and then there is a divorce. IMO, the fair settlement has her walking away with her 50% share of community assets, PLUS whatever spousal support it takes to help her reach employment self-sufficiency. If he doesn't see the fairness there, then I would worry Definitely, counseling is in order. Either couples, and or financial. There are plenty of helpful books out there that touch on this topic
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