cranium Posted April 14, 2006 Posted April 14, 2006 My background - http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t57566/ My wife and I are currently living as roommates in the same house. She decided in Jan. she was through and immediately ceased all efforts at reconciliation. We are cordial enough around the children, but otherwise go our separate ways and don’t say much to each other. I don’t know the point of making efforts to fulfill emotional needs anymore when she chooses not to pay attention; not to be aware? While I’ve continued to be 100% responsible for my half of the relationship, at some point I’m going to hit the wall. I’ve continued to see our MC solo; the only time she came with me was to talk about how we would tell the children and agree upon a parenting schedule. We have verbally agreed to establish as close to 50/50 joint physical, legal, fully shared parenting as we can. Neither of us would be deemed the primary custodial parent and neither would pay child support. We’ve proposed different scenarios and schedules, but our MC has advised that our youngest shouldn’t go 50/50 yet if it means back and forth between households once or twice a week. If we let the kids keep the house and we rotate through, 50/50 wouldn’t be a problem. We can’t afford to keep two apts and the house and neither of us likes the idea of sharing an apt off site. My wife has also suggested she move to a spare room, we tell the children we aren’t getting along and we continue living in the house together for another year (until our youngest is a little older). I don’t see how that could be very healthy for either of us or the children. I want to do what is best for the children, but she isn’t willing to work on reconciling anymore. Any advice on parenting plans?
Skeered Posted April 14, 2006 Posted April 14, 2006 That's a tough one...because seperation and divorce is never going to be easy on the kids but I think them seeing you two living under the same roof but no longer sharing things as a couple will put the kids on edge. I think they will feel more uncomfortable then if you were living apart. I'm not totally sure what you mean by giving the children your house and you two living in other places...how old are your children? Sorry I didn't read your other post maybe I should go check that out. I just finished my divorce yesterday as a matter of fact and the parenting plan I came up with was every other weekend with her dad and we would alternate Christmas, Thanksgiving, new years etc. and fathers day and mothers day she would be with the parent celebrating the day.. Divorce is never going to be easy on a child but with communication and honesty I think kids understand what's up and they need to be given a lot more credit for what they can handle. It's all about adjustment and life changes and these are things that if done correctly and to the best of our ability in putting the children first we all can become stronger people.
Author cranium Posted April 14, 2006 Author Posted April 14, 2006 I'm not totally sure what you mean by giving the children your house and you two living in other places...how old are your children? What I meant was not moving the children at all. Some days Mom would be there and some days Dad. The house would be their rock. I just finished my divorce yesterday as a matter of fact and the parenting plan I came up with was every other weekend with her dad and we would alternate Christmas, Thanksgiving, new years etc. and fathers day and mothers day she would be with the parent celebrating the day.. This is a pretty standard plan and would involve child support from the non-custodial parent. I have suggested a 2/2, 5/5, 2/2 plan in that Mom would have them every Mon & Tues, Dad every Wed & Thurs and the weekends would alternate. Some weeks she would have them Friday-Tues and I would have them Wed-Sun. I also recommended Fri-Fri, but Mom thinks seven days is too much. Both our children are under 10.
Ladyjane14 Posted April 14, 2006 Posted April 14, 2006 If we let the kids keep the house and we rotate through, 50/50 wouldn’t be a problem. We can’t afford to keep two apts and the house and neither of us likes the idea of sharing an apt off site. I have heard of people doing that. It doesn't necessarily have to be a permanent solution. On a temporary basis for a year or two, with good ground rules in place...I don't see why it wouldn't work. You'd have to stay out of one another's business though, and that's going to be a challenge. What a shame that you two can't work this all out. I know you've put alot of effort into it though, so there's nothing to hang your head over. You've given it a good effort.
Mz. Pixie Posted April 17, 2006 Posted April 17, 2006 How old is your youngest?? I think the part about leaving the kids in the house and you guys rotating for a year would be a great idea. My ex and I do a week at a time, but the other parent gets one night that week with the kids, so it's like every three or four days they see the other parent for one night. That also gives the other parent one night to do errands etc without the kids should they need to- work late etc. I hate to hear that things are not better!
Author cranium Posted April 17, 2006 Author Posted April 17, 2006 Hey Mz. P - Our youngest is four. I think if the children follow the same schedule, a week at a time with an additional night for the other parent wouldn't be a problem. We could also split them up and go ahead with 50/50 for our oldest and set another schedule for the little one. How do your children cope with the back and forth? How old are they? I think the part about leaving the kids in the house and you guys rotating for a year would be a great idea. I could handle this better than living in separate rooms for another year.
Mz. Pixie Posted April 17, 2006 Posted April 17, 2006 4 and 9. The youngest was three when we separated. They rotate houses. Sometimes she gets confused as to when she will see the other parent so I've been keeping a calendar to let them know when they will be with me vs when they will be with dad. It's been harder for her than for my son, although he's nine he's mature for his age and he just goes with the flow. We've made it work mostly by the rules being the same at his house as at mine. Bedtime is the same. Each of them have their own things at my house and at his. We try to minimize the carrying back and forth, except for the outfit they wear to the other's house- then we try to just send them back in that outfit the next week when we rotate. Splitting them up wouldn't have been an option in our case. My daughter is too bonded to her brother to be away from him like that. I would think that with you guys just rotating in and out it would be way easier on them. The only downside to that is you guys would share one apt on the "away" time. That means when you were away from the kids, you'd ben in that apt with all her stuff and yours too? That would be hard I would think. Unless one of you could stay with parents during the off week?? In the beginning we also ran back and forth alot. Like my daughter cried for me on my off week but I ran by the house to spend time with her. That kind of thing.
Author cranium Posted April 17, 2006 Author Posted April 17, 2006 Mine are also 4 & 9; daughter and son. I don't want to split them up either, but might have to if we can't agree on one equal schedule that works for both of them. I would think that with you guys just rotating in and out it would be way easier on them. The only downside to that is you guys would share one apt on the "away" time. That means when you were away from the kids, you'd ben in that apt with all her stuff and yours too? That would be hard I would think. I have found a place, but I don't really want to share on the "away" time. I would want her to find her own place. Financially, not likely to happen. So, if it came down to it, I think sharing "off site" would be easier on all of us than staying in the house.
Trimmer Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 Cranium: First, sorry about your situation... Our kids are 6 and 8, and like you, we continued to live in the same house for a number of months while we tried to sort things out - I had a separate bedroom and bath. During that time, my wife mostly did the "morning routine" while I went to work early, and I tended to pick up from school and take care of dinner. We were no drama/non-toxic/cooperative, but there was still this tension - not so much between us, but probably just a kind of an unease that this was inherently a temporary situation... Once we physically separated a couple months ago (she has her own place now, and I will get one once our current house sells) we also wanted to do a complete 50/50, and we had to figure out a schedule too, so we adapted a schedule that some friends are using. I call it "3/4-4/3" or "7 out of 14". We picked a time, say Noon Wednesday, that is a fixed switchover time in every week. Let's say the father always gets them on Wednesday at noon. The first week, the father keeps them for 3 days (switching back to the mother on Saturday noon), and the mother gets them for 4 (up to the following Wednesday noon). Then starting the cycle over from Wednesday noon, father this time gets to keep them for 4 days (this time, through Sunday noon) and the mother gets them for the next 3, completing another cycle at Wednesday noon. I think I may have made it sound more complicated than it is. Here's the supposedly simple version: Every week parent "A" gets them starting Wednesday noon, then on alternate weekends, parent "B" takes over either on Saturday or Sunday noon. It's 3/4 one week, then 4/3 the next. This works out to each parent getting 7 days out of every 2 weeks - a 50/50 division - and I believe it has some other advantages as well. Every day and "school night" during the school week, they have a consistent schedule, and they switch only once during the school week. The reason we made the switchoff time "noon" is that during the school year, my wife can send them off to school on Wednesday and I pick them up. Like I said, we're quite cooperative, but even so, irrespective of our interpersonal relationship, we find that this makes for a fairly "organic" mid-week switchoff. The only variable in their schedule is the alternating Saturday afternoon/night, which I think is kind of a good thing - that weekend time is a precious thing, and we all get to share it back and forth evenly... As always, your mileage may vary - this is just what works for us... The fact that we both like the schedule is a huge plus, as we are both motivated to make it work. My experience is similar to Ms. Pixie - I make them pretty color calendars in Excel so they can keep track of which weekends go which way, and whether there are any special schedule adjustments coming up. Also like Ms. Pixie, I can't imagine having the two of them spend any significant amount of time divided up, apart from each other. (Although, as an aside here, we have occasionally planned some one-on-one time where we each take one kid separately for an overnight, and we find this is pretty special time for us to connect in a different way with the kids. Both we and the kids like this a lot on an occasional basis, and I highly recommend it - I just think dividing them up a a significant part of our regular weekly schedule would not be in their best interest...) Anyway, I just wanted to kick that in there. I don't know about the age of your 4-year old, as to switching houses. I do know that while my wife and I have taken pains - throughout this whole thing - to be cooperative and supportive with respect to the household and espeically the kids, of course, that once we physically separated, there was a kind of a weight lifted, and I actually find it easier to be even more calm and cooperative, and able to keep my focus on the life we create for our kids. And I applaud you for doing that, too. I admire you for considering the possibility of keeping one house and rotating the parents through. When all of this crap started to happen in my life, one of my first thoughts when I thought about the kids was "Boy, we adults just do what we want to, and the kids have to adapt to it. Wouldn't it be something if we really focused primarily on the kids, and required the adults to adapt to that?" And one of the ideas I had was just that - let the kids live in one house and make the parents move around. But in the end, I suppose, it's the Golden Rule (not that one, the other golden rule: "The person with the gold makes the rules...") Whether rotating the parents would work for you, I don't know .... maybe. The thing is, I hope that - done properly - kids living between two houses can consider each house to be a whole, undivided "home" that is theirs. But for parents trying to rotate in and out, I wonder if you wouldn't always feel like you're living in someone else's house, to some degree. But maybe not - maybe since the other spouse would not be there at the same time, maybe it wouldn't be that bad...
Mz. Pixie Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 Hi Trimmer- good to see you. We also do try to build in one on one time from time to time. This next weekend which is my weekend my son is going to a sleepover and I'll just have my daughter- and we'll have time just the two of us. At times I also just pick him up from school and we go do things. I agree that both homes can start to feel like "home" My kids call both places home but it takes a bit. The other night my daughter said, "I want to sleep in my bed" at my house. Usually she wants to bunk with the bunk beds in her brothers room but lately she's liking her bed. I liked it that she called it her bed! I had a disadvantage because my ex kept the house. So, he had all the things I'd carefully built up for the kids over the years- their rooms I decorated- their things that I bought. I had to get new things or ask for him to send things to my house. Mostly, I bought new things and as birthdays and Christmases have passed they have gotten more things at my house.
Author cranium Posted April 18, 2006 Author Posted April 18, 2006 my wife mostly did the "morning routine" while I went to work early, and I tended to pick up from school and take care of dinner. We were no drama/non-toxic/cooperative, but there was still this tension - not so much between us, but probably just a kind of an unease that this was inherently a temporary situation... I've handled the "morning routine" for years (+ Sat/Sun). My wife normally takes care of making lunches, then she's out the door early. She picks our daughter up from school and they're home to meet our son's bus. She takes care of dinner and I do kitchen cleanup. Better brush up on my Barefoot Contessa. I do know that while my wife and I have taken pains - throughout this whole thing - to be cooperative and supportive with respect to the household and espeically the kids, of course, that once we physically separated, there was a kind of a weight lifted, and I actually find it easier to be even more calm and cooperative, and able to keep my focus on the life we create for our kids. This is how I anticipate feeling. There still is tension and unease between us-well, at least for me, but I've had glimpses. We're not physically separated yet and I already know I have a much easier, closer, healthier time with the kids when she is not around. She seems to have moved on fairly easily; at least that is the outward face she wears, so she almost seems like an impediment now. Don't get me wrong; if she were still willing to be open to new possibilities for us...but, if I buy a lottery ticket, at least I have a chance of winning. And I applaud you for doing that, too. I admire you for considering the possibility of keeping one house and rotating the parents through. When all of this crap started to happen in my life, one of my first thoughts when I thought about the kids was "Boy, we adults just do what we want to, and the kids have to adapt to it. Wouldn't it be something if we really focused primarily on the kids, and required the adults to adapt to that?" And one of the ideas I had was just that - let the kids live in one house and make the parents move around. Thanks. Don't know if we'll be able to pull it off. My wife didn't like our counselor suggesting that from his experience with similar circumstances, the partner not wanting the separation seemed to show more concern for the well being of the children. Exception noted, Mz. P. I like your "4/3-3/4" except for one parent always having Friday night; would like to alternate as well as Sat, if possible. I can be selfish sometimes. Did either of you (Trimmer & Mz. P) have to get your plan "court approved"? We'll have to come up with something soon. We haven't talked with the children yet, but our impeding separation will result in our son having to change schools. So much disruption to little people that doesn't have to happen. C'est la vie. I'm also open to suggestions regarding "the talk". I get a sick feeling everytime I think about telling the children and I really want to be responsible in my communication. Best to each of you.
Mz. Pixie Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 That's why I like my plan. That way, each of us has every other weekend off. I also like picking them up from daycare on that Friday instead of having to make the exchange at his house or my house. It makes it easier that we don't have to see each other much. I'm not sure I can take much credit for being more concerned about the kids than most people who wanted a separation. In the beginning I was in control and then once I told him I was a basket case. I think I wanted to minimize the time we were around each other so as to minimize my pain and guilt in ways. It took me a few weeks to get my head on straight and begin really focusing on the kids as I should have. At the beginning I was being selfish in wanting the separation, but at that point it was stay sane for my kids and separate or stay and fall completely apart. I chose to stay sane for my kids. You still have alot of things to work out. Are you guys going for legal separation first or straight to divorce?? Once in negotiation just think of her not so much as your wife but as the mother of your kids- that makes it easier to stay businesslike. Yes, my parenting plan was in my court documents. The attorney wrote it up and we both agreed to it. We don't adhere strictly to it by mutual agreement. Either of us has the option to get the kids at any time as long as it doesn't conflict with the other parent. We've both been good like that. Also before the divorce was final- we wrote it up and we both signed it and had it notarized. I did that to protect myself legally, because he stayed in the house and I didn't want him to accuse me of abandoning my kids! Why will your son need to change schools? Why not commute? That is what I do. As far as the talk- it was the hardest thing I've ever done. I have always made sure that I never said that we didn't love each other anymore- I just explained that mommy and daddy couldn't get along anymore but that it wasn't their fault and we still loved them just as much and we would work it out so that they would have time with each of us, etc. I didn't want them to think if mommy stopped loving daddy that she could stop loving them too. If they have ever asked me I always say that I still love their dad. I do still love him, as a person and as the father of my kids- just not as a wife- but I don't have to explain that to them.
Trimmer Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 Hey Mz Pixie - good to see you, too. Things are going well; I've just been spending some time working things out in other venues for a while... Good points about the Friday night thing... For me, I have some control over my work schedule (not to the point where I don't have to work - wouldn't that be nice - but I can sleep in or take the occasional Monday off to give myself a "full" weekend) so it works out OK for us. And like Mz P, we are being flexible about helping each other out with schedule issues - STBXW had a thing to do on Sunday night once, so I kept them that one extra night, then she kept them one day longer that week, etc... I made sure I updated their calendars and talked to them about it so they knew what was going on... Give them as much control as you appropriately can, and let them "own" their situation as much as possible. (This is different from giving up your control and responsibility as a parent - don't do that!) Cranium - about "the talk".... Here's a thread from a while back where I got some great support from folks here on this subject. My wife didn't like our counselor suggesting that from his experience with similar circumstances, the partner not wanting the separation seemed to show more concern for the well being of the children. Hmmm... as objectively as that statement may have been intended, it does seem a bit inflammatory for a counselor to put out there, although I realize we're hearing it here out of context... I wonder if this is partly because the one wanting the separation is somewhat in a position of power and control, and therefore can sort of take for granted his/her love for the children - not so much that they are less concerned in their hearts, but that they are in a position of strength and can assume things will work out as they intend. (It can also be a bit of a defense mechanism - maybe a bit of denial that the separation will cause their children pain...) The spouse being left, on the other hand, is in a position that severely lacks control or power, with foundations rocked, and he/she is left questioning everything. Therefore, perhaps these spouses compensate with a survival instinct by prioritizing the most imporant thing remaining in their lives - the kids - and really putting some hard work into that area. As opposed to denying what is happening to the kids, they identify with it. I'm not attaching judgments here, and I'm not saying that the separating spouse completely denies the effects and the left spouse is inherently a complete saint, but there are probably tendencies in certain directions, depending on the part you are playing... Plus I'm sure there are also opposite dynamics, where the left spouse is apathetic, and the separating spouse feels a guilt that drives him or her to be especially concerned about the kids. Either way, I still think it's an interesting statement for the counselor to present. What did you think of it at the time, Cranium? I'm pretty sure that's what's happened with me (the first scenario) - I was scared crazy by the idea of being a father without my kids' mom being there as my wife, and I really identified with their loss, so I had to convince myself I could do it in this new way. So it became a sort of a mission for me to remember the kids, to not lose focus on their needs, to learn about child development and the effects of divorce, etc... I don't think their mom has taken out any library books on post-divorce parenting or seen a counselor about kids issues, etc., so it might be easy to jump to the conclusion, from outside appearances, that I am "more concerned." But to be honest, I don't question their mom's inherent love and concern for them for an instant, and in fact, I think my educating myself in this area has provided an opening for us to talk about some of these issues... I had a disadvantage because my ex kept the house. So, he had all the things I'd carefully built up for the kids over the years- their rooms I decorated- their things that I bought Yeah, that must have thrown a little bit of inbalance into the dynamic at the start there... We're doing it a step at a time - she is in a new house now, and is doing a good job of making it a home for the kids while we have the current house on the market. Then once this sells (at which time I hope they will feel somewhat settled with that first phase), I'll get a new one. Once in negotiation just think of her not so much as your wife but as the mother of your kids- that makes it easier to stay businesslike. Totally, totally, totally agree with this. As a matter of fact, you don't have to wait until you're in negotiations. If you reach the point where you find that a divorce is inevitable, and if you can accept it, it helps to realize that the character of "your wife", as such, no longer exists. Then separating her other "characters" (business partner in your various financial and property holdings, co-parent of your kids...) and remembering who you are dealing with is a very powerful aid in your dynamics. Once I accepted that my wife was gone - truly gone - and started dealing with her as the mother of my kids and an important business partner, things got so much better for all concerned, including me, because she isn't on the defensive from my anger and bitterness, and we deal with each other much more rationally as co-parents. As a matter of fact I have oriented my thinking to realize that I am going to still be connected to her, as co-parents, closely for the next 15 years, and still after that for the rest of our lives, so like a business model, I'd better start treating her as my most important client. I don't have to be attracted to her personally or like what happened, but we need to maintain a healthy relationship for the good of our joint project.
Mz. Pixie Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 Great post Trimmer! I'd like to add Cranium, that as much as you'd like the kids to know "Daddy doesn't want this" or "daddy wants to stay as a family" you cannot let them think that. Even though it's true. Sure, it would give you satisfaction and make your wife look like a jerk but it puts your kids in the position of having to choose sides. They can't!! It's not in them at this age to have to do this. I'm not saying you would do this, but just throwing it out. That kind of talk will mess with their minds more than any satisfaction you could get out of making her look like the bad person.
Author cranium Posted April 18, 2006 Author Posted April 18, 2006 Trimmer - thanks for the link to your thread. I couldn't make it through without crying; my emotions have been all over the place lately. Hmmm... as objectively as that statement may have been intended, it does seem a bit inflammatory for a counselor to put out there, although I realize we're hearing it here out of context... Therefore, perhaps these spouses compensate with a survival instinct by prioritizing the most imporant thing remaining in their lives - the kids - and really putting some hard work into that area. As opposed to denying what is happening to the kids, they identify with it. I doubt I quoted him verbatim as he is very careful with what he says, but something close to that is what I heard. I'm certain in a way, it's what I wanted to hear. So, I thought at the time, you tell her doc. I, like you, don't question their mom's love and concern for them either. Once I accepted that my wife was gone - truly gone - and started dealing with her as the mother of my kids and an important business partner, things got so much better for all concerned, including me, because she isn't on the defensive from my anger and bitterness, and we deal with each other much more rationally as co-parents. I'm still struggling here. I've been reading about attachments/detachments and the flow of life. I'm sad she's leaving me, but I'm pissed off this is happening to the children. Aside from us rotating nights on the couch, neither of them see this coming. I know I'm bitter and angry right now, so I've found myself not talking to her much at all. I also know that as long as I hold on, I am the architect of my own suffering. Mz. P - our son will be changing from private to public. We can't afford two households and his current school. I'd like to add Cranium, that as much as you'd like the kids to know "Daddy doesn't want this" or "daddy wants to stay as a family" you cannot let them think that. Even though it's true. This came up with our counselor. She wants a unified approach, but I've made it clear I am not going to lie to them. This is where I have to be careful to maintain responsible communication. I think it is important to tell them the truth; I don't want to lose their trust more than I already will. I'm not out to make her look like the bad person, there are no villains or victims, but it's her choice to quit. I've got to run; more later. Thanks again guys.
Author cranium Posted April 27, 2006 Author Posted April 27, 2006 So, we've agreed to talk to the children this weekend. We have not, however, agreed on what we are going to say. I see our MC today and I am going to get his input one more time. Basically, she wants to say "we" have worked really hard and "we" have agreed to separate or the best thing for "us" is to separate. She asked me not to get caught up in the syntax. I am not willing to take one for the team here. I told her I agree "we" both contributed to the condition of our relationship and I am culpable for my part, but "I" am still willing to work on things. If Mom wants the separation, I think Mom needs to convey that the best thing for "her" is to separate. It is definitely not the best thing for the children. If she wants to say she thinks a separation is best for "us" and Dad doesn't agree, I might be able to live with that. I have not asked for a separation, so if I consent to a "we" position, I would be selling out and being inauthenic with my children.
Ladyjane14 Posted April 27, 2006 Posted April 27, 2006 Your kids don't need to know all that, Cranium. They just need to know that both Mom and Dad love them, and that as parents, they want the children's home to be a peaceful, happy place without grown-ups fighting. When it comes to a child's loyalty to BOTH his parents...you can't allow the finger to be pointed. This is one of those situations in which the one finger points to your wife...but the other three point back at you. There's always backlash when one parent is perceived to criticize the other, even if it's nothing more than speaking the truth.
Author cranium Posted April 27, 2006 Author Posted April 27, 2006 Got it, Lj. I'll do my best to keep it simple. It's not going to take either one of them long to figure out on their own where each of "us" stands. It's not a matter of finger pointing, though. It's a matter of her requesting I be inauthentic with my children, there's a difference. Our home is a peaceful, happy place (kid's current perception) and we don't fight (at least not until recently & not ever around the kids). Both of our kids are going to be blindsided by this. I also come from the position that all we are is our word. Now, both of us broke our word. So, we clean it up, recommit and move forward if for no other reason than we said we would.
Ladyjane14 Posted April 27, 2006 Posted April 27, 2006 Both of our kids are going to be blindsided by this. I am sooooo sorry to hear that, Cranium. You know, I have a soon-to-be divorced friend who told me that telling the kids was the hardest thing she ever had to do. And she's been through some stuff too...so that tells me something. As she tells it...it was a very emotional experience for everyone involved. But the kids really are doing great now. I know them well. Divorce would never have been their preference of course. Kids usually want Mom and Dad together. Nevertheless, they're happy in their daily lives, because both parents are very careful to keep them out of any conflict that arises.
Mz. Pixie Posted April 27, 2006 Posted April 27, 2006 I'm glad you weighed in here LJ. I really wanted to discourage Cranium from putting the impression in his kids mind that it was him against her. Their loyalty would then be divided and that wouldn't be good for them. It actually is taking one for the team Cranium, but more so taking one for the KIDS, not her. Just reframe all of your thinking towards the kids and what's best for them. Trust me, I've had plenty of chances to slam my exh to my kids, but I'm proud to say I've taken the high road every time. Not for his sake, or mine but for theirs. My mom slammed my dad all the time. My dad never badmouthed my mom. When I grew up, I could tell that my mom was by far not the innocent party in that fiasco. My dad drank and she was mentally ill so it wasn't totally his fault. Because he'd never talked bad about her to me, I respected him so much more and eventually went to him and it was a great bonding moment for us. He knew it would happen eventually, he was just waiting for me to come to him. They need to see a united front here when it comes to their parenting, especially right now. Because just the idea of the unknown is going to rock their world. There is also a chance of them at some point trying to "divide and conquer" and you want them to know "Hey guys mom and I are together as far as everything to do with you two".
Trimmer Posted April 27, 2006 Posted April 27, 2006 (Cranium: as a prelude: when you sit your kids down to talk to them, DO NOT go on and on and on like I am about to. But as you'll see, this subject engages my passion...) I'm a man in your position - my wife left, I would have moved heaven and earth to work on things, but no dice. I don't recall if infidelity is involved in your situation, but my wife was hiding a relationship (at least an EA) with an OM that had its roots at least a couple years back, and he is still in her life now that we are separated. And like you, honoring and maintaining my kids' trust in me is a huge priority in my role as a father. Having said that, I agree with Ms. Pixie and LJ. Taking one for the team - one for the kids - is the way to do it, and it's because it's best for the kids, both in the short run and in the long run. In the short run, their image of themselves incorporates their parents, and it does so as a team - in some ways, kids don't identify with their parents as separate entities from themselves, their identification of their parents is as a joined part of themselves, inside their beings. So, internalizing the idea of divorce, in the very best case, means dividing - splitting up - a part of them that they have relied on inside themselves as a single whole. This will be traumatic enough, and I don't say that to draw a horrible picture for you - but it is sort of the baseline reality of this process no matter what. Just the fact of this division happening is a difficult thing, of course, and kids will deal with it differently depending on their ages. But anything that implies blame, conflict, or a need for them to divide loyalties just makes it worse, and burns inside them in that place where there will already be a divided part that used to be whole. It will require a diversion of even more of their emotional energy that they should be using for normal kid-level development. Cranium - I, too, questioned what I would tell them. I, too, agonized over whether holding back the full truth - my truth, as I would have told it - was being dishonest or inauthentic. Today, I am supremely glad and without regret that I did what I did, which was to do it as a team: "we have decided that..." and "it's very complicated, but sometimes parents decide...", and then make sure you always return to reassure them "the important thing to know is that we both still love you very much, this isn't because of you or anything you have done, and the most important thing to both of us is to continue taking good care of you just like we always have." If possible, be ready with concrete answers to very pragmatic questions like will we/you move? Will we live in separate houses? When? Who will take care of us? Will us kids have to live separately? Have the logistics ready to lay out for them, or if you don't have it worked out yet, answer them with a reassuring confidence that you and mom will work it out together, and that you know they will be well taken care of. (Make this reassuring to validate their concerns - not dismissive, like "oh, don't worry about that..." Make sure they know that you hear and understand their concerns.) Beyond the basic idea that we were getting divorced, everything I did, everything I said, incorporated my wife in her character role as co-parent, not as spouse, and in that way, it was easier to talk supportively like we were a team. Again - keep it simple, offer the concrete, clear fundamentals, and then let them ask what they want to know. Since telling them, I have been very open and receptive to talking about it further, which we have on occasion, and I have still never gotten a question from either of them about specifically why, or who wants it, or anything that could lead anywhere near a "me against her" area... I did get a "you probably still love mommy, in some way, right?" from my daughter once. Note that she wasn't asking if I did, she was asking me to confirm what she wanted to hear. I didn't lie to them. I did tell them carefully crafted truths. I withheld information that I believe would have made their road harder. It's been about 7 months since we told them, and about 2 months that we have been physically living separately and sharing parenting time 50/50. I am glad I did it the way I did, and I wouldn't have changed it, even with the benefit of retrospect. I believe that the kids know that they have two parents who love them completely, that we two parents work together to support their relationships with the other parent, and that they will not have to spend their energy figuring out how to navigate a difficult terrain between us, or how to divide or distribute their loyalties. I'm just telling you this as a view of one possible outcome, and to give you an idea of the "prize" you might want to keep your eye on, from the experience of someone in a similar position who is a little bit down that path. Trust me, I'm not claiming to be a saint - there was a time when I wanted to tell people just what my wife had done. And then later there was a time when I didn't want to tell them myself, but I wanted people to find out about it some other way (small town living) so she would still get her comeuppance but I would somehow remain "clean." And now that I'm further down the path, more accepting of the reality, when people really have found out some of the details and mentioned it to me, I find that I have kept my focus so much on doing right by the kids that I am almost protective - "well, she has her own life now, but I want you to know that we are both still loving, cooperative, and supportive parents to our kids..." My spouse is gone; I don't need my pound of flesh any more. I want her to be a good parent to our kids, and not only am I merely willing, but I want to support her in that role. I do still wonder what I will say - say 10 years from now - if my kids sit me down as an adult and ask me, in detail, exactly what happened. I wonder if they ever do that. No matter what, I don't think they will regret that we provided a supportive environment, and I think what they will value as "authentic" from their childhood will be the love and security that they felt from both their parents.
Author cranium Posted April 27, 2006 Author Posted April 27, 2006 Had a good meeting with our counselor today. Got that I really am not ready to talk to the kids about this. What I want and have always wanted is our marriage. So, that is what I am going to stand for, both in language and in action. My agreement to talk to them was based on what Mom wants, not me. If Mom can't take it, then she leaves me for loving her too much. That very well may happen and at least I held my ground. Our son will be changing schools and "we" do need to have a discussion about that before he hears it from another source. Other than that, "we" don't need to tell them anything right now. She has not found another place to live yet and there is still a lot of other uncertainty. If she wants to tell them more at this time, it will have to come from an "I" place and Dad will stay out of it. They need to see a united front here when it comes to their parenting, especially right now. Because just the idea of the unknown is going to rock their world. There is also a chance of them at some point trying to "divide and conquer" and you want them to know "Hey guys mom and I are together as far as everything to do with you two". I'll continue to maintain a united front when it comes to parenting and how much we both love our kids; never a question there. Mom and Dad are not together right now as far as everything to do with Mom and Dad. I've acquiesced way too often over the years and look where that got me. I've got nothing to lose by standing for my marriage. I'm not dismissing your advice Lj and Mz. P. You know I admire both of you and value your input.
Mz. Pixie Posted April 27, 2006 Posted April 27, 2006 No problem, C. I know you love your kids. Trimmer- I hope you stick around here. We could use your good advice here on LS more often.
Author cranium Posted April 28, 2006 Author Posted April 28, 2006 "the important thing to know is that we both still love you very much, this isn't because of you or anything you have done, and the most important thing to both of us is to continue taking good care of you just like we always have." I agree with this completely. I discussed the syntax of “we” vs. “I” etc.. with our counselor. I told him I was concerned and didn’t want to say anything that would be detrimental to the children. His response was "Syntax is huge" and “How will telling the children the truth be detrimental to them?” Not my truth vs. her truth regarding what happened over the years, who did what (blah, blah); each of us has our on personal tests for reality (“I feel”, “I believe”, etc..), but the truth NOW that “she” is the one who wants to leave and “I” am the one who wants our marriage. and I have still never gotten a question from either of them about specifically why, or who wants it, or anything that could lead anywhere near a "me against her" area... I believe that the kids know that they have two parents who love them completely, that we two parents work together to support their relationships with the other parent, and that they will not have to spend their energy figuring out how to navigate a difficult terrain between us, or how to divide or distribute their loyalties. I want her to be a good parent to our kids, and not only am I merely willing, but I want to support her in that role. I am a great parent to our kids and I know my wife is a great parent as well. I have and will continue to fully support their Mom and from all appearances she will fully support me in our mutual relationships with the children. I don’t see the question “Who wants it?” as having a “me against her” answer. I see the answer more of it’s just what is. Maybe that doesn't make much sense and it is how I see it (another personal view of reality). Please continue to hammer me guys.
Trimmer Posted April 28, 2006 Posted April 28, 2006 Cranium - I see your points, and I very much admire your being so open to hearing and considering counterpoints. It's a very fine line, isn't it... I was like you are, I didn't want the divorce and would have done anything to make it work. But at some point, I accepted its reality and inevitability, and I think that was the point at which I could honestly say to my kids "we have decided... we have agreed... etc." Even if it wasn't what I had wanted, I eventually got to the point where I agreed it was going to happen. I now see that you are not at that point, and I understand how it would be hard to tell your kids that this is something that you have decided or agree with. I certainly agree with your counselor that syntax is huge - I smiled when I read that, remembering that I told you that I told my children "carefully crafted truths." (And seriously, I didn't mean that as a euphemism for "lies...") But I guess I don't necessarily accept the counselor's “How will telling the children the truth be detrimental to them?” point as a blanket endorsement to reveal all, though, or the distinction that present day motivations are somehow "fair game" and any different from factual truths gone by. Would any counselor approve of me sharing with my children my wife's continuing infidelity as it is "what is" and is certainly a direct part of what is happening. It's the truth, isn't it? And how about her infidelity 10 years ago - it, and our lack of active recovery from it certainly set the stage for the present situation, so would that be fair game? From a purely factual point of view, I certainly think it would help anyone, child or adult, to understand better our current situation, but for me, the negatives of doing that outweigh the advantages. The problem is, I think some of these things, even if you could convice me that they "would not be detrimental" to the children, I don't know that they would actually help the children in any way either. And even if they didn't create a rift or loyalty issue with the kids, they might well still piss off your co-parent, and that's something else to consider that affects both you and the children. I'm not advocating always caving in the interest of placating the other parent, but somewhere between revealing all and revealing nothing is a line to be drawn... I don't think it's as simple as just saying "it's OK to tell the whole factual truth..." I don't know, I'm just kind of talking out loud, here... I don’t see the question “Who wants it?” as having a “me against her” answer. Actually, I would be more worried that you would be creating a "kids against her" issue. Essentially you're telling them that mom is the fundamental reason and bears all the responsibility for this hugely painful and world-rocking event. As true as that may be, I believe that the knowledge of this simple fact has the potential to warp and unbalance the dynamic of their relationship with each of you. It could go in the way of "mom caused this", or it could go the way of "dad is bad for trash talking mom." I just don't see it providing any useful fuel for a healthy dynamic. In talking to my counselor about wanting people to find out "the truth" about what my wife was doing outside our marriage, I realized that I wanted people to know to satisy me - so they would know that I was the "good" party, and she was the "bad" party, to reduce it to its most basic black-and-white description. And once I decided for myself that this would not serve any useful purpose other than satisfying me, I was able to let go of needing to do it (and as a matter of fact, here in our small town, it might have been damaging in other ways, so I'm glad I worked that one out...) Cranium - there's no question that you love your kids and want to do what's best for them - the very fact that you're engaged in this discussion speaks to that. And your desire to remain authentic resonates with me as well. When my kids are teenagers, I hope that they will be able to talk to me, and willing to listen to me, and I think that starts from a foundation of trust and authenticity that I have been intending to build, frankly, starting from their infancy. I just think that you need to separate out this desire for authenticity, which is a pure one motivated by your kids' best interest, from another drive that I sense in you from this statement: "I've acquiesced way too often over the years and look where that got me." If any part of wanting to reveal all to the kids is coming from a need to stand up to your wife, that's a motivation that may be distracting you from serving your kids' interests. If you can get to the point where you can truly strip that away, and focus solely on your kids, then great - I know you are pure of heart, but it's a confusing time... "I've got nothing to lose by standing for my marriage." You have two issues going on here at the same time. Telling the kids is one, but resolving your marriage situation is another related, but separate one. I think that one has to come first: until you resolve the marriage situation, and get to a place where you have resolved it at least factually, i.e. be able to define, agree upon, and accept specifically what is going to happen - even if you still continue to work on it emotionally - that telling the kids will just confuse and mix the issues, and possibly put them right in the middle of an unresolved struggle. Forgive me - I'm really picking at you here, but it's partly because you said to "continue to hammer" you , and the other part because I admire you for putting so much careful thought into this process. Whatever 'right' turns out to be, I believe you will get it right...
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