otherlover Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 hi everyone-Just wanted to share a story and maybe get some opinions. I just had a conversation with my mm and he tells me all the time that he would be happier if he left his wife. even before me and him started he was unhappy for years but could never get up the courage to leave her. Well they made the mistake of having a baby thinking it would save the marriage and make htem closer..or thats what she thought. Well now they have a baby and they barely touch each other he said that they have had every conversation in the book and its boring..he doesnt have fun anymore....but why wont he leave her? because he said hes weak and scared and feels like he shouldnt leave his daughter. we talk sometimes about what our life would be like..i dont know how else to feel her..i hate knowing he goes home to her althought i know nothing happens because im online with him every night...should i wait for him and just give him time. he said he knows what he has to do its just hard. I want to wait for him i love him and he loves me but at the same time....am i waiting around for heartbreak? everythign i pointed out to him he agreed with..he just needs to do it
JayKay Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 He will probably not leave unless there's an ultimatum. You are actually making it EASIER to stay in his marriage. It's bearable because he knows he can talk to you online and spend time with you during the week. Only if you leave him will he come to terms with how bad his marriage is. You should probably say, "Look, I love you but I'm out the door. I can't live with this anymore. If you want to come with me, great. If you need to stay with your wife, find. See ya."
Blind Illusion Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 I think it's a difficult thing to do....leave your family and start anew with all the unknowns and struggles. I know I find it to be that way. Others just accept that this is their lives, as incomplete as they might feel and over time, become involved with something/someone else that provides a little happiness. "Another look at life" , so to speak. Sometimes people think you are wanting the best of both worlds but that really isn't always true. What you want is to carve yourself a little happiness in life but can't make the big changes to do so. At least , not at that time. I do think this though...I wouldn't wait for him. (which is different from "I wouldn't be with him) What you really got to ask yourself is if this relationship brings you enough happiness, as it is, to keep it for the time being. Almost tell yourself that this is how it is. Then, anything extra that happens over time, like him leaving & starting anew, would just be gravy.
lizad Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 well I was having having an A with a married man.....I am actually married myself........ he has been complaining to me throughout the 2 year affair that he needs to move on......now here I was, not asking him to leave, telling him that I was not going anywhere and yet he continued to constantly talk about his "horrible" marriage. supposedly, (and the only reason i dont think he is lying) they have not been intimate for a long time......I say i dont think he is lying b/c i know a lot of what goes on there, i hear their conversations and such.........anyway, even though he is miserable and knows he has to move on, he just cant seem to......... whether it's financial, the kids, or just plain weakness he has not left and I doubt he ever will....especially if there is no one waiting for him on the other end. I know he doesnt want to be alone........ I am assuming that very shortly as I just recently ended the A......he will move on to someone else outside his marriage to get what he is so desperately looking for (on the side that is)....... but I agree, you being there for him does make it easier to stand being married...... it stinks, but unfortunately that's the way it usually is.
lovernotafighter Posted March 24, 2006 Posted March 24, 2006 well I was having having an A with a married man.....I am actually married myself........ he has been complaining to me throughout the 2 year affair that he needs to move on......now here I was, not asking him to leave, telling him that I was not going anywhere and yet he continued to constantly talk about his "horrible" marriage. supposedly, (and the only reason i dont think he is lying) they have not been intimate for a long time......I say i dont think he is lying b/c i know a lot of what goes on there, i hear their conversations and such.........anyway, even though he is miserable and knows he has to move on, he just cant seem to......... whether it's financial, the kids, or just plain weakness he has not left and I doubt he ever will....especially if there is no one waiting for him on the other end. I know he doesnt want to be alone........ I am assuming that very shortly as I just recently ended the A......he will move on to someone else outside his marriage to get what he is so desperately looking for (on the side that is)....... but I agree, you being there for him does make it easier to stand being married...... it stinks, but unfortunately that's the way it usually is. this reminds me of my A allot. my MM would always start this divorce talk and Id bat it down..I started to tell him less and less at home because I didn't want him fell lead on. I am in talks of a divorce with my H. I decided to drop it on my MM and tell him he should come with me..he did the predicible. but then 2 days later he completly changed his tune. I was shocked but I don't believe him. I think the only reason he is saying this now is because I was honest and told him I'm not going to wait for him..I am going to date and such. he looked horrifed at that. he wants to have a serious talk next week..i'm not sure if I can handle it especially knowing it's probably all bullsh*t anyway.
lizad Posted March 24, 2006 Posted March 24, 2006 why are you ending things with your husband??? It's really amazing because there were times during the A that I was so caught up with it but mainly caught up with the OM's feelings that I believed that's what I wanted to do.......leave......then I would realize where my thoughts were and say to myself........"what am I doing" my marriage since I started the A has basically been pretty even keeled.......the OM's marriage has had major ups and downs and he always needed to share that with me even when i said I dont want to hear it....... I think he would have liked to have worked out a comfort zone with her and had me in his life as well......to be on the same page as me so to speak..... he didnt get that chance b/c even though she doesnt want a divorce, she cant stand him......(and I do know that for sure) the OM gave me what i thought i needed, that's it. I never trusted him and dont think I ever could, there were a lot of things about who he is that I dont even like.......and I did not want to leave my marriage. I really dont think he wants to either but it rough there......but he made his bed there and now he has to lie in it unless he leaves and moves on. I am convinced that he will be with someone else soon on the side and prob. never leaves until maybe the kids get older and she throws him out. I think the OM will say ANYTHING to keep the A going..... I know in my case, he needs this A more than I did. Listen to what your OM has to say but also see if that;s the person you really truly want in your life. I dont know how do you ever trust each other as the way you get into an A betrayal and all........... My OM would always say to me "if I was with you, I would never do this and that.....blah blah......well that's a nice statement but how do you ever know. I felt even I would never be enough for him if that was the route i wanted to take......... when the A became more work and stress than a marriage, I knew it was time to say goodbye.......
scarletletter Posted March 24, 2006 Posted March 24, 2006 I think alot of times it really has nothing to do with leaving the wife. I don't think many men would have a big problem with that. What you have to realize is that when they leave the wife, they leave everything that they would call a normal life behind too. This includes the extended family, in-laws that they are close to, etc. I'm sure that has to be tough to just leave everything and start a new life. I would hope that some in-laws would still consider him part of the family, but if he hurt the wife, I think they would write him off.
blind_otter Posted March 24, 2006 Posted March 24, 2006 When my exH and I divorced, my family wouldn't even allow me to speak his name around them any more. To them, he was like a dead person. It hurts him to know this. He still asks after them.
lizad Posted March 24, 2006 Posted March 24, 2006 I think alot of times it really has nothing to do with leaving the wife. I don't think many men would have a big problem with that. What you have to realize is that when they leave the wife, they leave everything that they would call a normal life behind too. This includes the extended family, in-laws that they are close to, etc. I'm sure that has to be tough to just leave everything and start a new life. I would hope that some in-laws would still consider him part of the family, but if he hurt the wife, I think they would write him off. I agree, if it were just him and her, it would not be an issue.........its' the kids, the family, the life, the home.....etc.....
Owl Posted March 24, 2006 Posted March 24, 2006 Actually, it's often a little more than just the kids and such. I suggested on another thread here that reading a chapter in "The Five Languages of Love" would help a lot of people here who are dealing with the situations they are in. In chapter 2 of that book, it talks about the different 'kinds' of love that people experience. All radically different, but still summed up in the word 'love'. It walks through the 'phases' of a relationship, and how that 'love' changes over time. There are several phases, but the two that pertain most to what we're all dealing with here are the first ones. First is being "in love". It's that initial attraction, that infatuation. It's the butterflies in the stomach, the 'can't wait to see him again' feelings. It's INTENSE!!! According to psychologists, this 'love' stage is what brings couples together, and sustains them through the first two years or so of the relationship. It is the stage where the couple (at least originally) would first have children. Apparently it's a chemical addiction in the brain. It produces the exact same chemical responses in the brain created by psychologically addictive drugs like alcohol or cigarettes. The second 'phase' is when that 'attraction' slowly changes into the longest phase of a relationship. I don't recall the name of it, but you could call it the acceptance or accustomed phase. It's when the relationship settles down, and both parties become so dependent on each other that they're not used to doing without each other. They become that 'team'...and this lasts up to and beyond 20 years. It's where the relationship has that weight of an established bond between the two of them. THAT is what you're running into when the MM won't leave his wife. He's got a long-term relationship established with her...and all the weight of all that shared time, commitment, etc...going with it. It's THIS reason that so many MM won't leave at all, or when they do leave they end up going back to their spouses. The addictive nature of an affair is HUGE...but it's also short-term in the vast majority of cases, lasting no more than 2-3 years most of the time. And once the 'in love' starts to fade, the 'partner' relationship starts to draw them back again.
whichwayisup Posted March 24, 2006 Posted March 24, 2006 Great post Owl. Oh, that term is, "when the honeymoon phase is over..." That is the real test if two people are inlove.
Sassy Posted March 24, 2006 Posted March 24, 2006 He will probably not leave unless there's an ultimatum. You are actually making it EASIER to stay in his marriage. It's bearable because he knows he can talk to you online and spend time with you during the week. Only if you leave him will he come to terms with how bad his marriage is. You should probably say, "Look, I love you but I'm out the door. I can't live with this anymore. If you want to come with me, great. If you need to stay with your wife, find. See ya." I couldn't have said it better Jaykay!! Why does he need to leave her when he has you and her both. He is having his cake and eating it too. Until you give him the opportunity to choose he won't . Good luck
OzGirl Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 I thought the same thing as you - why won't he leave if he's so unhappy? What's the point in bitching about it to me if he won't do anything about it? I think that when he tells you what his wife WON'T do, he's justifying why he does what he does with you. It's the ONLY thing missing from his life - closeness, affection, someone to laugh with, etc. He doesn't think EVERYTHING'S missing. If it were, he wouldn't be there, because the fact that he's staying there proves he wants what he has aside from what he has with you - he has image, familiarity, history, extended family, a life that might "look" good from the outside and "look" good to him. Secondly, if his life is lacking in all those areas, SO IS HIS WIFE'S. And, so they're in the same boat - why won't she leave? We can all say they stay for the kids. But, we all know a child would be better off if it had happier parents apart, than unhappy parents together. So, I don't think it's just the parent's point of view. If their child is developing "normally", seems happy and unaffected by what it's not aware of (being the lack of affection their parents have for each other), then why wouldn't they stay together? They love their child and if their child is happy and comfortable, why rock the child's boat? You are filling a void, and the fact that you are happy to see a MM proves that he is filling a void for you, too. Though we're not all the same and wanting the same things (the general population at large), you and he suit each other's needs. And, just like a marriage or any other partnership, should one of you change your needs, you will demand more or less for it from your partner. He seems to have what he needs. He's got it all set up quite well by the sounds of things. But, if you felt it okay to have a distant or part-time relationship with this man for a while, and within yourself, you "change" your needs (maybe because of him) to wanting more - something more exclusive, then be prepared to lose him because he will only leave his wife for you IF you can provide all that the combination of you and his wife can PLUS more, in one way or another. If you can't, then why would he move from where he is? My ex-MM - we were the penultimate "best of friends". And, yet, when his wife found out, I was dropped like hot potato. It's taken me about 6 months or so to make these academic/pragmatic type of conclusions, but my heart's still dragging it's feet, and I dream about him all the time still and each dream is just another scenario where I am abandoned in some publicly humiliating way. I'm sure he really likes or even loves you. But, he's a man. They have territory and "things" and pride and success and the ability to provide that are relatively instinctively typical of what matters to men - sometimes more so to women, hence we don't understand why they can't give it up for things we think are more valuable - like true love (or what we perceive it to be). Best of luck.
KnowHowLoveFeels Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 Great post OzGirl! There's a lot digestable information in your reasoning. It did lift my heart a little. I will never be able to fully understand a man when he puts money and status above being with the woman he loves. I am willing to start a new life, but many men would rather stick with what they have, even if it's half broken.
OzGirl Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 When my world fell apart with the MM leaving, I read a lot of books on infidelity and love addiction and all that sort of thing. But, one book which helped me not seek emotional support so much, but an understanding of what men want, what women want, and the primal co-dependant needs we have for one another is a book called "The Moral Animal - Why We Are the Way We Are" by Robert Wright. It's about evolutionary psychology and nothing like Venus Mars, etc. It's based on the study of evolution, including behaviours we have which, though a bit "neanderthal" to us humans, are directly related to our ancestry, and it goes on to compare, on occassions, us to our closest mammalian "past", being apes. It's not a light read. It refers to Charles Darwin quite a lot, and how his theories have stood the test of time. Our morals are based on our religions, structure of society, cultures, etc, and we are influenced by commercial and modern images of how we "should" be. But, it questions if, as creatures who's needs are to procreate, providing (for men) and seeking (for women) the strongest genes to continue ourselves as a race, we really are built to be morally concious. We have the ability to reason unlike most other animals... but does that mean our behaviour should be "moral" as defined by boundaries which no other animal places on itself to achieve the same goals we have, but maybe with a lower intellectual capacity to do it. Anyway, I thought it was fascinating. In relation to me and my MM, a man of class and all that biz, he is still a neanderthal in so many ways, and it helped me understand why maybe, if I was true to myself, I can explain why I'm not so envious of people who get married at 21 years of age, have kids by the time they're 25, then turn 35 and wonder why they're so miserable. It's never been a life that appealed to me. Companionship yes. But, the whole "continuing the legacy of my parents for no other reason than it's what I think I'm supposed to do" I've never done - before I met the MM and now (after). Anyway, if you're waiting around for your MM to visit you or call.... or your MM has dumped you like you just leapt into another dimension without any warning or explanation.... this book will fill in time and maybe fill in the gaps as well. Education and knowledge means empowerment. You have nothing to lose for gaining either and making up your own assessements along the way.
No Stress Lady Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 It's not a case of "can't leave her", more a case of "won't leave her" - that's how it seems to me. I'm sorry you're feeling this way but the fact is that if he really, really wanted to leave - then he would. The longer you are there waiting for him the less likely he is to leave - I accept that it's not going to be easy for him anyway given the fact that he has a daughter to think of but the bottom line is that if he wanted to leave then he would. As others have said, by staying there for him you're not giving him any incentive to change the status quo - why would he when you're always there waiting patiently for him? You could still be in the same situation in 2007.......2008.......2012 - do you really want to be stuck in this same rut years from now? Because you may well be. If you end this affair then A) he might finally leave and B) you will be giving yourself the chance to find someone else who CAN give you 100% If you stay as you are then I suspect you'll be asking the same question for years to come.......... I've had a few very passionate and affectionate affairs with MM myself but I always maintained my independence emotionally - after a few years or so of being single and dating a few guys and generally doing my own thing I met the man of my dreams who I'm marrying later this year - far more fulfilling than hanging around waiting for someone who's already taken!!!! Good luck - I hope you reach the right decision for you.
scarletletter Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 Even as unhappy as the mm I am involved with is at home, he told me right up front that he won't leave until his youngest goes to college. He and his wife do not fight in front of the boys and they are putting on some sort of charade for them. He has actually said that it would be so much easier if he would come home one day and she was dead from a heart attack or whatever. That is so terribal! He really cannot stand this woman but they have made a promise to raise their children with both parents at home. I don't really argue with this even though I know how unrealistic it is. It is like he is living in a dream world...or nightmare. He is avoiding the turmoil associated with leaving the family. When the youngest goes to college, there will probably be another reason. We are living in the moment and with no expectations at all. I live by the saying.."hope for the best and be prepared for the worst".
Blind Illusion Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 When my world fell apart with the MM leaving, I read a lot of books on infidelity and love addiction and all that sort of thing. But, one book which helped me not seek emotional support so much, but an understanding of what men want, what women want, and the primal co-dependant needs we have for one another is a book called "The Moral Animal - Why We Are the Way We Are" by Robert Wright. It's about evolutionary psychology and nothing like Venus Mars, etc. It's based on the study of evolution, including behaviours we have which, though a bit "neanderthal" to us humans, are directly related to our ancestry, and it goes on to compare, on occassions, us to our closest mammalian "past", being apes. It's not a light read. It refers to Charles Darwin quite a lot, and how his theories have stood the test of time. Our morals are based on our religions, structure of society, cultures, etc, and we are influenced by commercial and modern images of how we "should" be. But, it questions if, as creatures who's needs are to procreate, providing (for men) and seeking (for women) the strongest genes to continue ourselves as a race, we really are built to be morally concious. We have the ability to reason unlike most other animals... but does that mean our behaviour should be "moral" as defined by boundaries which no other animal places on itself to achieve the same goals we have, but maybe with a lower intellectual capacity to do it. This book and theory, in general seems most interesting and along lines I have sometimes wondered about. I have also pondered at times, if men sometimes set up certain religious morals as a way to subjugate women. Is it really a big coincidence that as women started having extramarital affairs to meet their own unmet needs, that infidelity became more spoken about. Before that, in mankind's not too distant past, extramarital liasons were more tolerated and often, a man's mistress openly grieved at his funeral, alongside with his "proper" family members. (France's ex-president, Mitterand's 1996 funeral comes readily to mind) Perhaps this book refutes such an idea, but that's ok. I like reading all kinds of views. I must put this on my Amazon Wish List to get. Thanks.
lizad Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 you know it's funny b/c know matter how unique we think are A's are or were......we all seem like we share the same stories. I have walked away from mine for hopefully the last and final time. My OM was ALWAYS the one complaining about his marriage, sharing the ups and downs on a daily basis with me.........he was the one to want more out of the A....he never even liked to call it an A....but I would say that that is exactly what is it..... After reading all the posts on this thread about "not wanting to leave", "can't leave" etc.......it's really amazing. My OM at the time was always "done" always "getting ready to leave" he did actually move out for a month a year and a half ago but went back. I am married just so you know and did not want to leave my marriage so it was never me giving him an ultimatum or such. I like the quote about if he was that unhappy he would leave and if if he was that unhappy, the W must be unhappy as well and she is still there. It really rings true........ especially in my situation. He claims they haven't been intimate in two years, that they are both miserable and co-existing. that she doesn't want a divorce and is willing to live this so called miserable life........ I got sooooo tired of hearing him "cry wolf" and try to involve me over there in his problems. I will never really really know the truth of his situation. I know a little bit from hearing her and hearing phone conversations and such........ My OM needed this A much more than I did and he knows that. we have been in NC for about a week.......not for his lack of trying. He left a few voiceamails but I closed our e-mail account. I have no doubt that thisman will never leave and I'm almost positive in the very very near future he will turn to another woman...... I am just so happy that I am no longer that OW.....
Walking away Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 I am also a very recent OW. My MM and I ended our affair with love, however. He is the most tortured man I have ever met. A shell of a human being. I love him and I wish his happiness. If it was not to be with me, so be it. I feel no torturing, heartwrenching pain...just relief. I am free. Free to be by myself with no pain intruding into my emotions. Free to live and love another again someday. Free to remember the love that we shared without the ugliness of the affair. And he is free. Free to find himself and find peace in his life. And, I want that for all three of us. Stay strong lizad. You are doing the right thing. I have a feeling the best is yet to come for us.
whichwayisup Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 I have a question though for you all. If your MM were to leave his wife - And end up with you...Would you really (and be honest) be 100% happy? Could you fully trust him 100% and never worry that he'd cheat on you at some point in the future? The one thing that I notice with most OW and their situations is the addictiveness of the actual 'affair.' The intensity of it, the fantasy side of it. Take away ALL that has MADE the affair BE that way, would it be the same if the MM were to end up with you??
lizad Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 well for me, there were times when in the throws of the emotional rollercoaster, I had momentary thought of what it would be like......HOWEVER, they were momentary b/c I was not blind to the OM's faults.....I could def. never trust him and I always told him that........ He is not the best father and I also told him that I was glad that I wasnt raising children with him. He is a very very needy man and it's always about him. I even found myself sticking up for his wife when he would tell me things........ He would always say, I would never be like that with you, etc....but I knew this man inside and out and he did fulfill what I needed at the time.....which was adoring me, giving me all his atention.......things that in the real world just dont happen.... At this point, the A has just taken a toll on me.....was not worth it anymore. The hurting my husband, the cheating all that and I feel so good about my decision to walk away..... I'm not going to say I wont miss the extra attention but I am learning to fulfill that in much healthier ways........
whichwayisup Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 I'm not going to say I wont miss the extra attention but I am learning to fulfill that in much healthier ways........ I'm sure once you learn not to rely on him for 'extra' happiness to make you feel good, your life WILL get better. I'm happy to hear that you're putting yourself first.
lizad Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 I just want to add......that when I said "it doesn't happen in the real world" I meant that when you have a long standing marriage with children and obligations and all that.......it's not all that lovey feeling all the time....marriage is def. work. I am on the mend in working out the issues that led me to THINK I needed that.... An A....is a fantasy..........
lovernotafighter Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 why are you ending things with your husband??? It's really amazing because there were times during the A that I was so caught up with it but mainly caught up with the OM's feelings that I believed that's what I wanted to do.......leave......then I would realize where my thoughts were and say to myself........"what am I doing" my marriage since I started the A has basically been pretty even keeled.......the OM's marriage has had major ups and downs and he always needed to share that with me even when i said I dont want to hear it....... my marriage was basically over before my affair..it was pretty dead for the last 4 years and we have been going back and forth to split or not. we even tried to get preggers thinking we could save our marriage but that didn't happen either. my MM and I were friends first and we started confiding in each other.though when I realised what was happening I started telling him less and less..my affect on him and a few other people that were aware I am facing a divorce started to adopt my feelings,I felt bad so I started to clam up...besides that I didn't want my MM lead on or anything if I didn't get a d. my MM is starting to flip out. yesterday he wanted all his questions about my marriage answered even though we were going to chat next week about everything. I'm pretty aloof about my life and it's making him bonkers. but like you he always insisted on telling me everything,I even told him to please stop talking about it...it lasted 2 weeks.
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