littlepiggy1 Posted February 22, 2006 Posted February 22, 2006 I posted a thread awhile back about some issues my g/f and I were having... Tonight we had another conversation about them. It was probably not the best thing, since I was feeling a little depressed lately, and she seemed the same. For me, it just opened up a whole bunch of repressed emotions and I couldn't deal with things. I was a little short with her and she left upset. I feel very raw right now and probably need a reality check here. So I'm going to vent a little bit. I've been thinking about us and our relationship and it just seems like there's too much. There are so many issues and any number of them seem like a relationship killer... We just went to a counselor for a couple issues. Namely me looking at and masturbating to porn and my g/f being bi-curious and wanting to try things out with other girls. My g/f says she wants to be okay with the porn thing, but I wonder... She brought it up tonight and tells me that because I'm not entirely okay with her making out with other girls, that she feels short-changed. That me looking at porn is me getting my way, but her not making out with other girls is me restricting her. Now, I'd thought a lot about the bi-thing and was coming to terms with her doing a little bit of experimentation. But she tells me she doesn't know where it will end, so I don't feel confident at all about this... The counselor said that my g/f has to sort out her sexuality. That it's a very fundamental thing that can't be ignored. The porn thing... She tells me that it is a big issue for guys and is not an easy thing to necessarily stop, especially because guys tend to very strongly link porn and masturbation together. I'm not even sure I see us getting over this. It seems that to really explore her bisexuality, she needs to go off on her own. That we can't be in a relationship if she wants to date/fool around with other people. I don't care if they are other girls, they are other people. And I know she doesn't like me looking at porn and masturbating, but that's something I've been doing since I've been 12. Early in our relationship she said she was okay with it, but now it's changed. And there have been other insecurity issues, too. Quite frankly, it seems like the insecurities have been building in our relationship and she wants to change me or have me compromise to compensate... Actually, she does tell me she wishes she wasn't insecure. But I don't know how to fix that. It has to be her that fixes it. Then, we throw other stuff into the mix. She comes from a different cultural background than me. This isn't an issue on my side of the family (my family is pretty tolerant/apathetic about the whole thing). But it's an issue on hers. Basically, to marry her I'd have to compromise on what my ideal marriage/wedding/etc would be. We were talking about kids recently. She knows that at some point I would like a family. She seems to flip-flop on the issue. At one point she tells me that 2 kids would be ideal. That would be ideal for me, too. Then lately, she's going on about her fears of pregnancy and having a child and everything. She tells me, one, tops. I'm sorry, but this isn't something you compromise on. You either agree when it comes to kids or you don't. And her apprehention is making me nervous. Maybe it's because she's younger than me, but I don't want to wait five years and find out she's still uncertain. And there's other stuff, too... most of it is more minor that I think without these other issues could be dealt with. But with them thrown into the mix... I feel so depressed thinking about it all. There was a time when I could see us together and think with confidence that I would marry her. Because I feel I love her. But now I am so torn and confused. I feel so muddled and depressed about it all... It sucks.
filarena Posted February 22, 2006 Posted February 22, 2006 It's absolutely true that when you're bothered by one thing, it's much harder to not be bothered by others. So I understand that. But I strongly suggest you let go of the marriage and kids part. Yes, those are things that you will eventually need to sort out. Eventually. Way down the line. And yes, you can work around the ideal number of kids thing. My mom wanted 5-6, my dad 1. They had 4. They're still together. Believe me, that isn't what you need to worry about. The jealousy issues (her thing with porn and your thing with her sexuality) are what you need to focus on. All I can say is it's a good sign you are both willing to try and work things out, as evidenced by the fact that you have gone to counseling. I know it can be tough when you have several different issues all on your mind and all, but I don't think it's time to throw in the towel.
Author littlepiggy1 Posted February 22, 2006 Author Posted February 22, 2006 I suppose you're right. Blowing everything up in my mind when there are a couple issues to focus on right now probably isn't the best thing. These issues are really getting to me, though... During and after the first counselor meeting my g/f tells me she feel okay with porn most of the time. That she knows it's not that I don't want to be with her necessarily, but that it's just about watching a sex act and getting off by myself. But then tonight she brings up the issue of bisexuality and porn and keeps juxaposing the two things. She tells me that every time I look at porn, she wants to go make out with a girl. What kind of logic is that? She also tells me that I am hypocritical for wanting her to be okay with the porn thing, but not okay with her experimenting with other people. How can you compare the two, though? If the situation was the other way around, it's different, which is why I don't feel I'm being hypocritical. I know (she's told me) that if I was the one wanting to go and experiment with other people, she wouldn't be okay with it. Yet, if she wanted to masturbate, look at porn, fantasize about erotica, etc, I have no problem with that. In fact, I thought it might be a way to explore her bi-sexuality in a way that doesn't involve getting other people involved. Heck, I'm even okay with her trying cybersex and stuff. But what she tells me goes beyond that. Initially, I thought she just wanted to try making out with a girl. I thought about that and would be okay with that. But after telling her, she implies there's more. That she'd want to fool around with a bunch of girls and that some of the stuff even sounds to me like "dating". I'm sorry, but no. I could not be comfortable with her basically dating other people to make out with them. I mean, if I said I had never made out with certain types of girls and wanted to experiment with that, would I expect her to be okay with that?? Heck, no. I suppose she sees the porn as the same way. Her not being comfortable with it (though she says she is sometimes) versus my not being comfortable with her wanting to experiment. Blah... more venting.
Mary3 Posted February 22, 2006 Posted February 22, 2006 There's a BIG difference between looking at a Porn Video and actually sleeping with someone, She wants YOU to stop looking at Porn ( thats rediculous ) and SHE wants to SLEEP with other girls. Thats fine if you have an open relationship but you DON't and you both are in Counseling. Tell her to get off your back about the Porn. Those are videos and not real live girls that you are having sex with !. She needs to either be with girls or be with you. Unless you are both swingers she can't swing whatever way she wants and tell you to be a good boy Is it okay with her if you sleep with other girls ?? (Not ! I bet )
Author littlepiggy1 Posted February 22, 2006 Author Posted February 22, 2006 No, she most certainly wouldn't want me kissing or sleeping with other girls. To her, it's not same thing because she is exploring bisexuality whereas me with others girls isn't. And I'm not bisexual so I wouldn't even want to make out with other guys (but she still doesn't think she'd be okay with that). The porn/masturbation thing... She's told me that she would be probably better with that issue if our sex lives were better. She's dissatisfied with that. We typically fool around maybe once, sometimes twice a week. Things like schedules, stress (particularly for me since I'm in Uni right now) make things tricky some times to do it more often. But quite frankly, I'm satisfied. My ideal would be sex once or twice a week, and then I'd masturbate once or twice in addition to that. But her sex drive has always been higher than mine, so I know she wants it more often. I know she also doesn't "get" why I'd chose to masturbate. There are a lot of reasons and I've tried explaining it. It's more convenient at times, a lot less tiring, less work involved, and takes less time. I suppose some women just don't get that about a guy masturbating. It's not that we don't want to have sex with you at all, but there are times we just want to do stuff ourselves. She's also not nearly as into self-pleasure, which I think doesn't help. We talked about how many times she has masturbated since we started being sexual and in almost 2 years she's done it maybe 8 times. This is also why exploring her bisexuality through fantasy and what-not isn't an option for her. She needs someone physically.
ehead Posted February 22, 2006 Posted February 22, 2006 Dude, don't accept this bi experimentation BS. I put the lid on that right away with my gf. I have no idea what it is with these young girls and bisexuality. It's like a fad or something. Every girl between the age of 18-25 things they are bisexual now. One thing they all share in common is this sort of denial about bi-sexuality "counting". They seem to disregard it as real, genuine sex, as if it is a game or something. Tell your girlfriend this ... you have enough respect for lesbians and lesbian sex to give it the full ligitimacy of being genuine, REAL sex. Therefore, if she wants to make out or have sex with other girls, then you will consider it okay for you to have sex with other girls too. Don't let her try and convince you it isn't sex, or not the same as straight sex, because it IS sex. True lesbians everywhere would be offended that your girlfriend is treating girl-girl sex like a game and not taking it seriously. It IS sex. It can be every bit as fullfilling as straight sex ... more so if you are a lesbian no doubt. It is NOT a game. You are fully within your rights to make one of your personal boundaries be that you don't want her making out with other girls. Of course, she can make a boundary with porn, though personally I think that is pretty conservative, and I wish her luck in finding a boyfriend that will comply these days. Why not tell her to let her repressed lesbian tendencies out by masturbating to lesbian porn ?
a4a Posted February 22, 2006 Posted February 22, 2006 In short I think it boils down to control issues and fear. Take the actual acts of porn and sex out of it, it is a tit for tat situation. Your act bothers her so she brings up one that will bother you. I honestly would not pin myself down to parenthood with a person that I was not 100% sure we could get along long term. So maybe it is just part of the after shock of the other issues? a4a- have you seen my banana?
Author littlepiggy1 Posted February 22, 2006 Author Posted February 22, 2006 Dude, don't accept this bi experimentation BS. I put the lid on that right away with my gf. I have no idea what it is with these young girls and bisexuality. It's like a fad or something. Every girl between the age of 18-25 things they are bisexual now. One thing they all share in common is this sort of denial about bi-sexuality "counting". They seem to disregard it as real, genuine sex, as if it is a game or something. I agree that her wanting to fool around with a guy, girl or whatever is the same thing. Another person is another person regardless of gender. However, I know it's extra difficult for her because of her cultural background. She comes from a cultural background that's very repressive. Even women dating men is frowned upon. Forget about sex or living together before marriage are all that stuff. As a result, right now our relationship isn't even talked about to her family. We know it's known, but it's like an open secret that nobody says out loud. And I don't think it's a fad, because she tells me that she's had these feeling pretty much her whole life. But again, coming from a very repressed culture there was no way for her to act on them. Don't let her try and convince you it isn't sex, or not the same as straight sex, because it IS sex. Well, she doesn't want to have sex necessarily, but she does seem to want to kiss at least and maybe experience some sort of emotional stuff. But it sounds almost like she wants to date to me. That's a no go in my books. Why not tell her to let her repressed lesbian tendencies out by masturbating to lesbian porn ? As I said in my previous post, she's not much into fantasy or masturbation. She seems to think the only way to satisfy this curiosity is to involve other people.
blind_otter Posted February 22, 2006 Posted February 22, 2006 Yeah. If she wants to experiment with her sexuality she HAS to do it on her own. Otherwise it's not really experimenting because she has a safety net. It sounds more like an immaturity thing - you get to do what you want, so I should get to do what I want. That isn't a mature way to cope. Leave off the marriage and kids thing. That's jsut not something you should even consider now because your relationship isn't too grounded.
whichwayisup Posted February 22, 2006 Posted February 22, 2006 The two key issues - Her wanting to experiement with women and your porn/masterbation. Everything else inbetween are smoke screens... I agree with B_O talking of marriage/kids is so pointless right now. It isn't fair for either of you to entertain those thoughts because of the issues you have in the NOW. Imagine the problems x1000 when and if there is a marriage and kids?? Time apart is what has to happen. Not too sure if you two are better off apart. I know it will hurt but you are who you are and she is who she is. Neither of you are ready to compromise and give 100% to eachother UNLESS the porn slows down and her needing to experiment with women goes away.
Author littlepiggy1 Posted February 22, 2006 Author Posted February 22, 2006 Yeah. If she wants to experiment with her sexuality she HAS to do it on her own. Otherwise it's not really experimenting because she has a safety net. It sounds more like an immaturity thing - you get to do what you want, so I should get to do what I want. That isn't a mature way to cope. No it's not. What's frustrating for me is she seems to think she's the one comprimising in this relationship, but I see it as her wanting to change things about me. I'm not asking her to change, why is she trying to get me to change? Another example: This came up way before the porn thing. I collect artbooks of fantasy/erotic/comic-style art, as well as draw similar stuff. It's something I've been into for years. Since high school at least. She knew this going into our relationship, but it became an issue later on. She even told me once that it was a "compromise" for her to let me buy those types of books. My response is "WTF?" How is it a compromise on her part to not have me give up something that I have been into long before we ever started going out??? I know these issues stem from her insecurities, but I feel that I wouldn't be happy changing myself to fit her ideals. I am who I am and that's who I am. Leave off the marriage and kids thing. That's jsut not something you should even consider now because your relationship isn't too grounded. Oh, I know. It just strikes me that we used to be more on the same page about a lot of things, but now we aren't...
a4a Posted February 22, 2006 Posted February 22, 2006 No it's not. What's frustrating for me is she seems to think she's the one comprimising in this relationship, but I see it as her wanting to change things about me. I'm not asking her to change, why is she trying to get me to change? ... It sounds like you are getting resentful of her? It sounds like she is trying to do the tit for tat. I would say it is time to break it off for both of your sakes. IMHO.
Author littlepiggy1 Posted February 22, 2006 Author Posted February 22, 2006 It sounds like you are getting resentful of her? It sounds like she is trying to do the tit for tat. I would say it is time to break it off for both of your sakes. IMHO. I hear what you are saying. It's tough though, because I love her. I picture her in my head as the girl I fell in love with and want that part of her. But all these other issues just keep coming up. It's definitely not healthy for us. She already wanted to break up twice over stuff, but we somehow stayed together and kept trying. Maybe we need to finally admit that there is just too much going on for either one of us to be really happy.
Author littlepiggy1 Posted February 22, 2006 Author Posted February 22, 2006 I just received an email from her. She expressed disastisfaction in our sex life, which she feels is contributing to her feelings about porn/masturbation. Which she feels explains why this wasn't an issue sooner. Sex has always been an issue at one form or another. Either she was feeling guilty about having sex or we moved too fast/too slow or we weren't having enough sex or this bisexual thing or the porn thing. It's too much for me right now.
a4a Posted February 22, 2006 Posted February 22, 2006 She is waiting for you to dump her..... then she can come back and have some happy/ warm fuzzy drama.... this is only my opinion, which may be proven wrong. Not that you are a better human than her, but sounds like you are a tad more stable from your postings. There are stable women out there (like me I have a stable but I am insane) < bad joke insertion>. Really you need to just ask her WTF she wants and expects from this relationship and go from there. Sounds like a mess to me ...... at least it is right now.
blind_otter Posted February 22, 2006 Posted February 22, 2006 I just received an email from her. She expressed disastisfaction in our sex life, which she feels is contributing to her feelings about porn/masturbation. Which she feels explains why this wasn't an issue sooner. Sex has always been an issue at one form or another. Either she was feeling guilty about having sex or we moved too fast/too slow or we weren't having enough sex or this bisexual thing or the porn thing. It's too much for me right now. Word. She sounds verrrrrry confused and confusing right now. You said you feel like you used to be on the same page - well in your early 20s you change a lot. Find yourself, whatever they call it. OR maybe you just got to know her better. IMO anyone can completely hide their personality for 3-6 months, depending on how much time you spend together, b/c they're on their "best" behavior. AFter they get comfy, you start to see the real person and sometimes it's not really what you want/need. Don't fall into that trap of being in love with the idea of a person rather than the reality.
Author littlepiggy1 Posted February 22, 2006 Author Posted February 22, 2006 Not that you are a better human than her, but sounds like you are a tad more stable from your postings. There are stable women out there (like me I have a stable but I am insane) < bad joke insertion>. Really you need to just ask her WTF she wants and expects from this relationship and go from there. Well, I don't know if I'm that much more stable. But we've both had our fair share of stuff to deal with (personal-wise) over the last year or so, her more than me (and it's some very heavy stuff). I think she might be clinically depressed actually, and I know I suffer from anxiety more than I should. Although, I went to a psychologist once and after a couple sessions, he thought I was okay. So yeah, we're not in a particularly good position to have a healthy relationship right now, at least with respect to our own issues.
Author littlepiggy1 Posted February 22, 2006 Author Posted February 22, 2006 IMO anyone can completely hide their personality for 3-6 months, depending on how much time you spend together, b/c they're on their "best" behavior. AFter they get comfy, you start to see the real person and sometimes it's not really what you want/need. I know she feels that way about me. Part of it was due to our situations at the time, plus the whole "honeymoon" phase. This is both our first "real" relationship, so I don't think either one of us knew what to expect. I think she was maybe expecting more than me in the long run. I know that my situation changed, too. I went from working part time (freelance contracting, so I could even pick my own hours), to doing school part time, to now doing school full time. This took a toll on our together time, and she reacted badly to it. She even wanted to break up already once because we weren't spending enough time together. This issue about intimacy is an extension of that it seems. It doesn't help that I'm an introvert at heart, while she's more of an extrovert. But I think that if I can't meet her emotional needs, then that's that. I can't stretch myself too thin and I don't want to feel forced or obligated. And I know she doesn't want to be in a relationship where she doesn't feel satisfied. We do have another counseling session booked for next week. I'm wondering if I should just save all this stuff and discuss it there, with the counselor.
Mary3 Posted February 23, 2006 Posted February 23, 2006 I think thats utter garbage what she is feeding you. She sounds like a full blown lesbian who is frustrated with a penis and wants to give the *girls* her all. She calls herself bi-sexual but she isnt even interested in have much sex with you . She needs to go to the other side and you need to let it go As for playing with yourself...I step out on limb here and admit that most of my life, whether I had a partner or not , I have played with myself at least once a day , lol. I guess I have a very high drive. When in a relationship I like making love 2 times a day. This was typical in my 4 yr relationship, We made love everyday and it helped extremely that he loved Oral so that got me worked up right before. Tell her repressed self to step out of your life. Play with yourself all you want I think its cool to watch * wink * haha. Okay so I am open minded
Walk Posted February 23, 2006 Posted February 23, 2006 After reading all the replies on here, I'm gonna get flamed for what I'm going to say.. but here goes. If the guy I am with is masterbating to porn after I have stated that I am dissatisfied with the amount of sex we are having, then I feel it is equivalent to him cheating. The reason is, he is giving/focusing his sexual attention and energy on something other than ME. It doesn't matter if it's a girl, or a video. The man who has promised to meet my needs is cheating me out of my sexual satisfaction by getting sexual release through another means. A means that doesn't include me or my happiness. To me, that is denying your partner something they have expressed they needed. And I'm not sure it'd be easier to deal with if it were porn or another girl. At least if it were a real person, I would know to get the hell out. But if he's masturbating to porn, then society says accept it, it's just how men are, and women are f'ed up for thinking its wrong. I just want to clarify.. This is ONLY if the gf has already stated that she feels sexually neglected, or unsatisfied, or not getting enough sex. If she is fine with the level of sexual intercourse, frequency, and outcome, then she has no legit reason to view porn as cheating, or inappropriate. If a man wants release more often, then the gf can either make it happen, or stop b*tching about how he finds ways to satisfy it. Now, if he were to make an effort to satisfy her sexually as often as she has expressed, then he's free to masturbate anytime he wants. As long as he is able to satisfy his gf when she desires. Same for her. She shouldn't be able to get sexual release through other people, other means. As his gf, she is responsible for his sexual satisfaction (for the most part). She has to want to meet his needs, level, and desire too. It's effort, it's work, and both parties should want to meet the others desires, at the level each has expressed. I realize that having sex, or sexual companionship with another person is different from masturbating to porn... It's like comparing apples to oranges. However, they are both fruit. The main component of each of these is the fact that both parties feel that they are being "cheated" out of their sexual satisfaction with the partner they have chosen (each other). On a fundamental level, each partner is upset about how the other is choosing to release their sexual desires. And both are saying they are upset that it's not with each other. The difference is, where a couple may be able to comprimise on porn, (maybe he goes down on her if he's masturbated that afternoon), you can't comprimise on your gf wanting sex with another person. And if her true desire is to explore that, then she should NOT be in an exclusive relationship.
Author littlepiggy1 Posted February 23, 2006 Author Posted February 23, 2006 She calls herself bi-sexual but she isnt even interested in have much sex with you. Um, that's not quite true. She currently wishes she was having more sex with me than we are having right now. That's why she feels she is so upset with the porn. That her needs aren't being met and that she feels it's me being selfish about my needs. But then again, with the bisexual thing in there, I don't know what to think. Maybe it's another extension of her sexual frustration, I just don't know.
blind_otter Posted February 23, 2006 Posted February 23, 2006 After reading all the replies on here, I'm gonna get flamed for what I'm going to say.. but here goes. If the guy I am with is masterbating to porn after I have stated that I am dissatisfied with the amount of sex we are having, then I feel it is equivalent to him cheating. The reason is, he is giving/focusing his sexual attention and energy on something other than ME. It doesn't matter if it's a girl, or a video. The man who has promised to meet my needs is cheating me out of my sexual satisfaction by getting sexual release through another means. A means that doesn't include me or my happiness. No offense, this isn't a flame for you. But honestly, here's my thing -- if you got into the relationship with the person knowing this about them, knowing you wouldn't ever like it, and knowing they already did it -- then it's really the woman's responsibility to NOT get into that relationship. Because otherwise it would be getting involved with someone that, from the get go, you want to change. And that's not fair to anyone. It's good to know what you want, but with that comes the responsibility of chosing to be with someone that you know can give you that, from the start, rather than halfway through.
Walk Posted February 23, 2006 Posted February 23, 2006 No offense, this isn't a flame for you. But honestly, here's my thing -- if you got into the relationship with the person knowing this about them, knowing you wouldn't ever like it, and knowing they already did it -- then it's really the woman's responsibility to NOT get into that relationship. Because otherwise it would be getting involved with someone that, from the get go, you want to change. And that's not fair to anyone. It's good to know what you want, but with that comes the responsibility of chosing to be with someone that you know can give you that, from the start, rather than halfway through.I agree. But at the start, she was probably getting the sexual/emotional satisfaction that she needed. She said she didn't have a problem with it then. It's now, when she's stating that she isn't getting her needs met that she's brought it up as a problem. It's when he chooses to masturbate rather then have sex with her that it became a problem. Not prior to that. (If I read his post correctly.)
a4a Posted February 23, 2006 Posted February 23, 2006 Again I think it is a simple tit for tat game played by both people.
Author littlepiggy1 Posted February 23, 2006 Author Posted February 23, 2006 After reading all the replies on here, I'm gonna get flamed for what I'm going to say.. but here goes. I'm not going to flame you. What you are saying makes sense and it certainly echos what she said to me. But, there is a lot more to our sexual history than just what is happening now. And I think a lot of this is contributing to our current situation. To begin, she was a virgin. It took quite awhile before we actually had sex. Part of this was difficulties, well, doing the deed. It was quite painful for her a number of times we tried and to me, a girl being uncomfortable or in pain is my #1 turn-off. As a result, it took months before we got to sex. However, a few months after sex something happened in her life (she lost someone close to her) that made things quite difficult for her. Unfortunately, this carried over into our sex life because she started feeling very guilty about having sex. At one point she was talking either going celibate or breaking up. Me, I'm thinking we went through all the effort and pain and tears and other stuff just to get to sex and a few short months later you want to stop? Granted, things were very difficult for her and I understand that, but it still was tough to deal with. She gradually got over the guilt and things started to return to normal. But something else happen and both our living situations changed. To put a long story short, we no longer had very much privacy at all and that put additional strain on our sex life (there were times we'd drive off and park somewhere isolated just to fool around in peace). Her insecurities gradually seemed to grow as well. It wasn't about the porn or masturbation at the time, but about my art and art books. She kept saying that she didn't want me looking at other naked or sexualized women. Again, keep in mind that the art I was interested in I was into long before our relationship began and have maintained interest in. It's not that I masturbate over these art books, but I just think they are cool and like to collect/look-at them (btw, check out the art of Matt Hughs or Luis Royo to see where I am coming from). I was having trouble understanding why this was becoming an issue now and wasn't before... The bisexual thing started coming up, too. Initially, she was just telling me about these desires. But more and more she started to want to act on them. I'd also begun school full time and was more stressed-out/less-active than before which I think hurt my libido. I just wasn't wanting sex as much as before. It also took a toll, because I was seeing her less. At a couple points she wanted to break up because she felt I didn't have time for her. The porn thing was the most recent issue. She asked me not to look at porn any more. I tried, but I failed. She asked me about it later and I admit I lied to her. I called her the next day and confessed the truth, but she promptly dumped me (again). We talked about it the day later and this is when we decided to try counseling. Looking back on our relationship, it seems like we've had a steady stream of issues for the last year. It's like we can't go one month without something becoming an issue. Lately we've gotten closer to the line of breaking up and even doing it a couple times (but for less than 24 hours both times). Now the pressure of more sex, more intimacy, etc... it's just getting to me. I think in part I may turn to masturbation just because it avoids the whole sex thing. It's like it's uncomplicated that way because it's just me and my feelings. I think I'm emotionally unsatisfied in our relationship. It's become a source of stress and I'm an easily stressed out person as it is. The last thing I want is more stress. While a lot of it has been good, the issues are piling up. I just can't deal with this anymore.
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