Just my thoughts....

[erika2610]

Ok, so newbby and I started this on another thread, but were hijacking it, so I started one of my own I've read posts from quite a few people who say girls in here are too mean. 'They eat raw meat'. People would come here and give advice, but they feel like some girls just think they're bashing, when they're really not. Why is this? Are some people too defensive? I mean, there are going to be people who bash people in any forum, but it seems like girls here are just more ready to attack when they THINK people are bashing, when that's not what they're doing. Please realize that just because somebody doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean they're bashing. Like I said in another thread, some people are just more blunt than others.. they just cut to the chase. But that doesn't always mean they're bashing.

[newbby]

well erika,

i think alot of it has to do with false assumptions of the ows character. such as, all ow are selfish/skanky/immature/stupid/devious/lacking in basic sense. this is insulting, but, more than that it is frustrating. this judgement of ow is often clearly evident in peoples replies. it is also very evident in society in general. therefore it is understandable that ow will be much more sensitive to any remark that is unclear in intention.

of course it also means that many people would be scared to post here, because they have to be particuarly sensitive and often do feel that they are walking on eggshells.

it is not one or the other, it is both, and both sides are understandable.

i am still unsure erika about the bluntness argument. i dont know that that was ever in question, but the judgement itself, that often comes with the bluntness was.

[Walking away]

I agree with newbby. I think just the stigma of being the "other woman" has negative connotations for most all people. And it is true, most of us OW are very intelligent, attractive, successful women, who, for whatever reason, lost our semblance of judgement. Maybe we are all also hopeless romantics....

 

Anyway, some threads do appear to be blunt, but I think that just reflects the personality of the writer. Some people are just more forward than others.

[bluechocolate]

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t54546/

[erika2610]

well erika,

i think alot of it has to do with false assumptions of the ows character. such as, all ow are selfish/skanky/immature/stupid/devious/lacking in basic sense. this is insulting, but, more than that it is frustrating. this judgement of ow is often clearly evident in peoples replies. it is also very evident in society in general. therefore it is understandable that ow will be much more sensitive to any remark that is unclear in intention.

of course it also means that many people would be scared to post here, because they have to be particuarly sensitive and often do feel that they are walking on eggshells.

it is not one or the other, it is both, and both sides are understandable.

i am still unsure erika about the bluntness argument. i dont know that that was ever in question, but the judgement itself, that often comes with the bluntness was.

 

Because some people are just 'blunt'.. they don't sugar coat things, and posters feel they're being attacked.. when I don't think they are all the time. really I was thinking about the other thread, where somebody said something and was accused of bashing, when she wasn't. You know the one I'm talking about. And the person accused of bashing clearly wasn't. I just think SOMETIMES people jump on the defense too quick. I know there are nasty posters in here.. but I just think it would be easier for people to ignore them. Because when one poster starts attacking, another jumps on them, and it goes round and round and eventually the thread loses it's purpose. It turns into a big arguement.

[Ladyjane14]

There just seems to be no way sometimes to avoid the obvious. Here's an example:

I am a married woman seriously involved with a married man. We found each other on an extramarital web site, so we were both looking.

 

And then:

....I don't know that I would ever take my h back after he cheated. Of course, maybe he has and I don't know it...who knows. I don't know if I could live with that day in and day out ..thinking about him with another woman behind my back.

 

Both comments are from the SAME person! Now....how what the hell can you say about that?

 

I can't think of any way to offer good input without dealing with the disconnect this poster has in her married relationship. Personally, I think that in failing to deal with her apparent ability to minimize her husband's humanity, to compartmentalize her response to him....she's just going to have to deal with something similar later on with someone else.

 

We don't know her specific situation. Maybe her husband's an a*hole who doesn't deserve her love or admiration. But c'mon....does he deserve THAT? And wouldn't you say that in mistreating another person, you are in some ways damaging yourself?

 

These things are obvious to ME....but they aren't necessarily self-evident to others. And as we all know....if you address the "obvious" in here....you'll be leaving with your head tucked under your arm.

You're just another bitter, bashing betrayed wife at that point...or maybe "the morality police" (an oldie but a goodie.)

[newbby]

there is a difference, between judgemental and blunt. you can be direct without having judgement of that persons character, based on the situation they are in.

[Ladyjane14]

What's the difference between the two?

 

You don't think it's "judgemental" to tell someone that they're wrong based on your own personal opinion? I'm not a psychologist. I can't tell that poster for certain that she, herself, will be damaged by what she's doing. But I believe she will based on life experience.

 

Isn't it a "judgment" to say so? In essence wouldn't I be saying, "You're wrong because I have judged it to be so using my own set of criteria."

[newbby]

There just seems to be no way sometimes to avoid the obvious. Here's an example:

 

 

And then:

 

 

Both comments are from the SAME person! Now....how what the hell can you say about that?

 

I can't think of any way to offer good input without dealing with the disconnect this poster has in her married relationship. Personally, I think that in failing to deal with her apparent ability to minimize her husband's humanity, to compartmentalize her response to him....she's just going to have to deal with something similar later on with someone else.

 

We don't know her specific situation. Maybe her husband's an a*hole who doesn't deserve her love or admiration. But c'mon....does he deserve THAT? And wouldn't you say that in mistreating another person, you are in some ways damaging yourself?

 

These things are obvious to ME....but they aren't necessarily self-evident to others. And as we all know....if you address the "obvious" in here....you'll be leaving with your head tucked under your arm.

You're just another bitter, bashing betrayed wife at that point...or maybe "the morality police" (an oldie but a goodie.)

 

i am not sure ladyjane,

i dont think pointing out that possible disconnect, is insulting.

i do however, think this is somewhat insulting

A good way to get over him might be to ask him outright if he sees a future for both of you. He will probably run a mile and then you will have reason not to drool over him.

 

however, i was actually saying in my first post that i can see both sides of things, and also the reasons for them. just as the responses to ow in here are sometimes viewed in a more negative light than intended, so are the ow themselves and everything they say viewed with a certain judgement of ow. for example, for a long time i could make no comment anywhere else on these forums without some people telling me i didnt belong in those parts of the forum, or bringing up my owness. the defensiveness does not just come from nowhere, although sometimes people must also feel that they are walking on eggshells when they come in here to post.

[Ladyjane14]

You know, we can use language to DISSOLVE almost any point. If you stay at it long enough....you can reduce almost anything to meaninglessness.

 

Scary, huh?

[newbby]

What's the difference between the two?

 

You don't think it's "judgemental" to tell someone that they're wrong based on your own personal opinion? I'm not a psychologist. I can't tell that poster for certain that she, herself, will be damaged by what she's doing. But I believe she will based on life experience.

 

Isn't it a "judgment" to say so? In essence wouldn't I be saying, "You're wrong because I have judged it to be so using my own set of criteria."

 

yes you would. however, judging that someone will be hurt by a situation is not that same as judging someones character. i know that you surely realise this.

[newbby]

You know, we can use language to DISSOLVE almost any point. If you stay at it long enough....you can reduce almost anything to meaninglessness.

 

Scary, huh?

 

true, and you made the point well.

[Ladyjane14]

however, i was actually saying in my first post that i can see both sides of things, and also the reasons for them. just as the responses to ow in here are sometimes viewed in a more negative light than intended, so are the ow themselves and everything they say viewed with a certain judgement of ow. for example, for a long time i could make no comment anywhere else on these forums without some people telling me i didnt belong in those parts of the forum, or bringing up my owness. the defensiveness does not just come from nowhere, although sometimes people must also feel that they are walking on eggshells when they come in here to post.

 

I get what your saying about seeing both sides. I can usually argue both sides of an issue myself. Like I said, you can argue nearly anything to the point of meaningless though. At some point, if you don't stand up for something...everything becomes chaos.

 

Empathy is just the ability 'to walk a mile in the other guys shoes'. That comes pretty easy to me for the most part....but NOT when my temper is engaged.

 

What the OW/OM does is destructive. It lacks empathy. To be sure, the OW empathizes with the MM....but not the BS, at least not usually enough to stop her from what she's doing. And her empathy suits HER. She gains from it in receiving the attention she craves from the MM. So it's not altuistic empathy.

 

Infidelity deconstructs families. And our society is largely family oriented. Because the OW is an interloper, a destructive element, she's not going to be well received. She's going to attract a "defensive" reaction. People are likely to 'circle the wagons' and try to protect the value system they believe in...lest it fade away. She's "engaging tempers".

 

If she's living outside her own value system, she's expecting the worst from people. She's already on the defensive because of her internal struggles. When someone triggers her defensive reaction....it's likely to be a bit more explosive than what is sometimes strictly warrented.

[Ladyjane14]

.....judging that someone will be hurt by a situation is not that same as judging someones character.

 

Sadly, I'm not sure we can always separate the two. Our character traits affect us situationally. For example, the more 'narcissistic' of us will find ourselves often in dire straits. Life will be unkind because we 'reap what we sow' in alot of cases.

 

Narcissism can be a serious mental health issue. But can't it also be a "character trait", particularly if you look at it as something measured on a scale....say from Blatent Narcissism to Mild Selfish Tendancy? Wouldn't it then have a situational effect ranging from Devastating to Problematic?

[newbby]

I get what your saying about seeing both sides. I can usually argue both sides of an issue myself. Like I said, you can argue nearly anything to the point of meaningless though. At some point, if you don't stand up for something...everything becomes chaos.

not sure about this. surely it is best to see all sides?

 

 

Empathy is just the ability 'to walk a mile in the other guys shoes'. That comes pretty easy to me for the most part....but NOT when my temper is engaged.

 

What the OW/OM does is destructive. It lacks empathy. To be sure, the OW empathizes with the MM....but not the BS, at least not usually enough to stop her from what she's doing. And her empathy suits HER. She gains from it in receiving the attention she craves from the MM. So it's not altuistic empathy.

sure. i certainly did not try to portray an affair as an empathetic act. however, i also would not use that act as an indication of the ows character.

Infidelity deconstructs families. And our society is largely family oriented. Because the OW is an interloper, a destructive element, she's not going to be well received. She's going to attract a "defensive" reaction. People are likely to 'circle the wagons' and try to protect the value system they believe in...lest it fade away. She's "engaging tempers".

a reason why people view her negatively, one that is understandable in many ways given the position of most people that make that judgement. although, i think you have missed out the part where people in general view the married person as the inncoent victim and the op as the thief. maybe because the married person is percieved as being a higher class, in our society. also, not a good reason for why people find it neccessary to come into the ow forum solely to atack.

If she's living outside her own value system, she's expecting the worst from people. She's already on the defensive because of her internal struggles. When someone triggers her defensive reaction....it's likely to be a bit more explosive than what is sometimes strictly warrented.

and this is probably most ow. however, what drives her to live outside of her value system in the first place? therefore it must be clear that she doesnt really make a informed and conscious choice about this from the outset. i always find that those ow who are definetly happy with their lifestyle choice are better recieved. maybe because they are less defensive?

[newbby]

Sadly, I'm not sure we can always separate the two. Our character traits affect us situationally. For example, the more 'narcissistic' of us will find ourselves often in dire straits. Life will be unkind because we 'reap what we sow' in alot of cases.

 

Narcissism can be a serious mental health issue. But can't it also be a "character trait", particularly if you look at it as something measured on a scale....say from Blatent Narcissism to Mild Selfish Tendancy? Wouldn't it then have a situational effect ranging from Devastating to Problematic?

 

okay, so the narcissistic person should be dealt with, kindly or unkindly? which is more helpful?

[newbby]

lj, i have work to do now! i really must. happy valentines to you:love:

and everyone else here today:love:

[scarletletter]

yes, ladyjane, both of those posts were by me. Another example of you not knowing the situation and me not explaining the whole situation. They were two separate posts on two different topics. I do feel that if my h were cheating I could not stay with him. Yes, he is a complete a**hole and has no feelings for me whatsoever. Treats me like a piece of furniture. That is why IF i caught him cheating..it would be totally the end. Our child is the one that will suffer and I am trying the best way I know how to get out of a terribal marriage. The circumstances are not pleasant to discuss so I don't tell all of the details of why I sought out another relationship while I was still technically married. It is very difficult, I'm sure everyone has their story. I am a grown woman and responsible for my own choices. If this blows up in my face, its no one's fault but my own. Sometimes I wish that I would catch my husband cheating...that could be my ticket out.

[Ladyjane14]

not sure about this. surely it is best to see all sides?

 

I dunno, babe. Surely the old saying 'If you don't stand for something, you're gonna fall for anything' would apply.

 

 

...i think you have missed out the part where people in general view the married person as the inncoent victim and the op as the thief. maybe because the married person is percieved as being a higher class, in our society.

 

I think the MM does get picked apart pretty frequently. Surely, there aren't a whole lot of them posting. Both the BW and the OW are pointing the finger at him in alot of cases.

 

But he is loved in his relationships. That's why he gets forgiveness for his actions.

 

I do get your point about blaming the "homewrecker". But she doesn't have a bolt-hole to hide in unless she didn't know the score going in. Most times, she does.

 

 

.....what drives her to live outside of her value system in the first place?

 

That's the million-dollar question, isn't it?!

 

For most, I would say it's vulnerability. There's more to life and happiness than romance. Too many folks put their eggs all in that one basket though. My opinion anyway.

 

i always find that those ow who are definetly happy with their lifestyle choice are better recieved. maybe because they are less defensive?

 

Agreed. If you're going to be a mistress....at least be a GOOD mistress!

 

(I'm out. Things to do, places to go, people to see...and all that! Good discussion though. )

[Ladyjane14]

okay, so the narcissistic person should be dealt with, kindly or unkindly? which is more helpful?

One would always hope to be kind, but in the ends it most likely depends on where the exist on "the scale". At the destructive end of it...they're toxic people. Best to avoid them altogether in that case.

[Ladyjane14]

yes, ladyjane, both of those posts were by me. Another example of you not knowing the situation and me not explaining the whole situation.

 

I'm aware of that. I believe I said that here:

We don't know her specific situation. Maybe her husband's an a*hole who doesn't deserve her love or admiration.

 

Let me just get my head tucked up here under my arm good...and I'll be on my way.

[newbby]

I do get your point about blaming the "homewrecker". But she doesn't have a bolt-hole to hide in unless she didn't know the score going in. Most times, she does.

 

 

 

 

 

so what? i begin to be less and less persuaded by this moral high view. people are people, i dont see higher morals in other parts of the forum than i see in this one. i see bytchiness, ungratefulness, such things as "oh poor me, my mil only bought me a [insert name of flash car] for my birthday"....

i dont see anybody who is more altruistic, i dont see any more empathy, or less greed. its just people trying to be happy, and looking in all the wrong places. same as ow, and for gods sake why shouldnt they seek happiness with a mm? the mm is a person who also makes a choice, perhaps in some cases he does love her (the ow), it is not like she is unlovable as wives prefer to believe.

[Ladyjane14]

....for gods sake why shouldnt they seek happiness with a mm? the mm is a person who also makes a choice, perhaps in some cases he does love her (the ow), it is not like she is unlovable as wives prefer to believe.

 

It's not as if "wives" are unlovable as OWs seem to believe either. Two sides of the same coin.

 

Infidelity is all about LIES. If there weren't lies...it would be "open marriage". Still adultery to the minds of many, but I digress....

 

If you have to live your life in a LIE in order to find your happiness...you can pretty much bet you're looking in the wrong place, much as you said here: "its just people trying to be happy, and looking in all the wrong places".

 

I've been around a little bit....and IMHO, romantic love is NOT enough to make a person happy for the balance of their life. Infatuation is even more fleeting. At the end of the day, if you aren't 100% strong in your own philosophy and your own convictions....what do you have that can't be taken away from you?

 

I'm not saying anybody should be beat over the head with the personal philosophy or convictions of others. But you can't expect people to leave their core belief system at the door either.

 

Folks can take or leave what they want in the interchange of ideas, of course. Otherwise, we wouldn't be living in a free society. We'd have our "philosophy" dictated to us.

 

But I'm not giving up MY beliefs. And I do believe in honesty, and personal integrity, and in not committing acts of self-gratification at the expense of others. I'll stand on that...same as you'll stand on yours.

 

So, we're full-circle again. (Whew....I don't know about you, but I'm worn out! )

[newbby]

It's not as if "wives" are unlovable as OWs seem to believe either. Two sides of the same coin.

not this ow:)

 

If you have to live your life in a LIE in order to find your happiness...you can pretty much bet you're looking in the wrong place, much as you said here: "its just people trying to be happy, and looking in all the wrong places".

hmm if you are looking for any other person/thing (including your husband/wife) to make you happy you are looking in the wrong place.

I've been around a little bit....and IMHO, romantic love is NOT enough to make a person happy for the balance of their life.

goes both ways also.

At the end of the day, if you aren't 100% strong in your own philosophy and your own convictions....what do you have that can't be taken away from you?

you are not your mind. nothing can be taken away from you:)

But I'm not giving up MY beliefs.

i'm not asking you to

So, we're full-circle again. (Whew....I don't know about you, but I'm worn out! )

not really

[cygny]

You know, we can use language to DISSOLVE almost any point. If you stay at it long enough....you can reduce almost anything to meaninglessness.

 

Scary, huh?

you had the same thought i did, LJ--i had that thought many times on the other thread.