blind_otter Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 A black hole could suck each and every planet out of orbit. A large comet could put this place out of orbit. If the Universe had bad management, the sun may be sucked up in an approaching Black Hole. In this regard, science has discovered many fascinating and scary things about the universe. Oh I'm aware of the principles of astrophysics. I just had no idea that the principles of astrophysics, which are a bone of contention among fundamentalists AFAIK, involved the cosmic hand of G-d. It's kind of a moot point to argue from a theosophical standpoint if you are arguing to a skeptical audience that doesn't share your belief system. JMO, though, take it with a grain.
quankanne Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 She has said she had a personal faith in God independent from the Baptist presentation. People may still reject the type of God that is being presented, and have their own conception of who God is. from Barfool's previous post: … The problem with "wanting a relationship with your creator" is that you already have to believe somewhat that there is a creator. I didn't see the world as a creation of any "higher power" and thus my call to religion was more about the fear … her faith was not based in God, but fear of what would happen if she hadn't professed a faith while a member of that congregation. She didn't believe in God in the first place; her work in science solidified her non-belief. Or did I read this wrong, barfool? well QUANK if God really does exist he must have quite an odd sense of humour. In addition, I think i'd give him a below average rating on his performance in running the universe so far... he possesses an odd sense of humor because he respects our decisions to embrace or reject him? Is that what any loving parent does? must be a slow day at the office if you're doling out performance ratings on a God you don't profess to believe in!
Author barfool Posted February 13, 2006 Author Posted February 13, 2006 She didn't believe in God in the first place; her work in science solidified her non-belief. Or did I read this wrong, barfool? This is correct. I had previously tried to believe in a god but never truly succeeded. Then I stopped trying. Then came the furthering of my education and logical thought and now I am borderline atheist but still questioning. Another thought along these same lines: Theoretically if you are constantly questioning your faith in a god then you should (hopefully) be getting closer to what is the truth for you. If you die while still questioning, so christians would say that you have not fully let jesus into your heart or whatever, you would still go to hell (if it indeed exists). So even if you were pursuing the christian religion and traveled far down that road you would still be eternally punished for not being 100% sure?
Moose Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 Theoretically if you are constantly questioning your faith in a god then you should (hopefully) be getting closer to what is the truth for you. If you die while still questioning, so christians would say that you have not fully let jesus into your heart or whatever, you would still go to hell (if it indeed exists). So even if you were pursuing the christian religion and traveled far down that road you would still be eternally punished for not being 100% sure?Christians doubt their faith a lot. I know I do sometimes. Doubt is Satan's favorite tool. Once you've let Christ in your heart, no man can remove Him. But we will still doubt, and sink while attempting to walk on water. In no way, shape, or form will a Christian burn in Hell for doubting his/her faith, as long as Christ abides in him/her.
quankanne Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 Moose called that one right – even believers question their faith or their chosen religious belief. And it's not necessarily wrong because it often helps reveal God in a fuller way, in my opinion. Faith isn't a stagnant thing, but moves and shapes and flows with every situation you encounter, good or bad. It grows as your understanding grows; it stalls when you are plagued by questions you encounter. That doesn't make you any less a candidate for heaven, just allows opportunity to more fully understand your faith/belief/spirituality. google "dark night of the soul" – there have been several saints who talk about this questioning of their belief. It makes their faith journey more real to folks like you and me, because you see that a relationship with God is not just a given, it's a very real relationship that must be worked on just like any other relationship.
alphamale Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 Faith isn't a stagnant thing, but moves and shapes and flows with every situation you encounter, good or bad. It grows as your understanding grows; it stalls when you are plagued by questions you encounter. It is quite easy, QUANK, to have faith in something that one cannot see, touch or prove. It is much much harder to have faith in what is around you such as people, the human condition, life in general, etc....
Moose Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 It is quite easy, QUANK, to have faith in something that one cannot see, touch or prove. It is much much harder to have faith in what is around you such as people, the human condition, life in general, etc....The way your mind thinks alpha.....scary.....
blind_otter Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 The way your mind thinks alpha.....scary..... I was thinking, different. Not scarey. I'm not shaking in my boots or anything. I was reading one of those "history of philosophy" books yesterday where they have like 3-5 page blurbs on various philosophers and I kept thinking, wow, it's cool that so many people can think about the same world so differently.
alphamale Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 The way your mind thinks alpha.....scary..... no, i just think that people should question everything around them.
Moose Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 no, i just think that people should question everything around them.I meant scary in the fact that since Alpha thinks this way about everything, where is his security? Where's the sense of consistency, normal-cey(SW?)? Where, or in what do you ever find peace? That's whats scary.....not so much him.....am I making any sense to anyone besides myself????hee hee:laugh:
a4a Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 It is quite easy, QUANK, to have faith in something that one cannot see, touch or prove. It is much much harder to have faith in what is around you such as people, the human condition, life in general, etc.... I agree Alpha.
quankanne Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 It is much much harder to have faith in what is around you such as people, the human condition, life in general, etc.... those are the very things that spark self-examination. Faith just doesn't mean you blankly accept and that's it – you often question what you see and you experience and you come up with some pretty interesting conclusions, it's a constantly evolving thing. As otter's pointed out with her post, there are so many different views, and I'm sure one person will have many views on the one subject as time passes and he experiences different events. on the flip side, having faith in people, etc., boils down to how much you're willing to give into love. Cheezy, yeah ... but it's been the grease that keeps the ball bearings from blowing out or melting
Admiral Thrawn Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 It is quite easy, QUANK, to have faith in something that one cannot see, touch or prove. It is much much harder to have faith in what is around you such as people, the human condition, life in general, etc.... According to Jesus' parable of the seed-sower, the devil will immediately try to come and kill any faith in God. First of all, faith comes by hearing the word of God. Scenerio #1: You hear the word - you dont understand it, and whatever was sown in your heart is SNATCHED UP by the wicked one. Scenerio #2: Seed is planted in stoney places. You hear the word and receive it with joy. You have a euphoric emotional conversion experience, but have no roots. As soon as there is tribulation and persecution, then the faith is defeated. Scenerio #3: This probably applies to the majority of the church in North America. You have true faith, but the cares and lure of the world has choken any possibility to be fruitful. There is not much works to back up the faith as you are driven to the economic rat-race of paying bills, or trying to save money that the things of God loses importance. Scenerio #4: Is ideal. You are fruitful and have faith in Jesus Christ. Based on the 'seed sower' parable, it is very difficult to have true faith in God - because of the following: 1) You may not understand it. 2) You will gain new enemies when you become a Christian, and in certain parts of the world, may suffer persecution because of your faith (i.e. a Muslim or Communist country). 3) The cares, lusts of the flesh, eyes, pride of life, immediately and produce a multitude of distractions. With these many things going against faith - having true faith in something you cant see is more difficult than having faith on something you can see, especially when a gun is pointed to your head and you are asked to recant your faith or die.
Author barfool Posted February 14, 2006 Author Posted February 14, 2006 I meant scary in the fact that since Alpha thinks this way about everything, where is his security? Where's the sense of consistency, normal-cey(SW?)? Where, or in what do you ever find peace? That's whats scary.....not so much him.....am I making any sense to anyone besides myself????hee hee:laugh: I think that there is nothing consistent in one's life besides the facts that you are living and you will die. And nothing is normal because that means you would have to compare it to something and that takes away any sense of self. As far as security, there is only as much as you make. You have to have enough self-esteem and self-confidence to rely on no one else. Do you see the similarities: self, self, self
alphamale Posted February 14, 2006 Posted February 14, 2006 As far as security, there is only as much as you make. You have to have enough self-esteem and self-confidence to rely on no one else. yes I would tend to agree BARFOOL....I am a very secure person and don't need external validation. Its all about your emotional IQ. Most of it was instilled by my very wise and intelligent parents...
bluetuesday Posted February 22, 2006 Posted February 22, 2006 hey barfool it's a few days since this thread was posted on, but i wanted to add my comments in case they're of any value. technically, i'm a roman catholic. high church, insense, men in dresses, the whole circus. i go to a roman catholic church, i pray, i sing, i look just like one of them. and many of the teachings of the church, i carry with me. i think they're nice teachings. i think if people treated each other with love and respect, the time we spend on this planet might be a bit happier. however, i have doubts. i have doubts that there is a god and i have doubts that if there is a god, jesus was his son. for a 'christian', these are pretty big doubts. but i love my doubts. they're what keeps my spiritual life alive. i am a constant seeker of the truth. the search for that truth is a defining characteristic of my life. science has always fascinated me, and i see science and religion as two complimentary ways to find out the questions being conscious throws up. science asks how. religion asks why. that is all. all science has is what has currently not been disproved. all religion has is what it believes without proof. what set einstein on the road to his general theory of relativity must in part have been the faith that he could disprove newtonian physics. all scientists have this faith. all humans have this faith. every last one of us believes in something we cannot prove. you may not have the proof you're not going to get knocked down on the way to work, but you cross the road anyway. you didn't have the proof that the chef at the restaurant you ate at last night didn't poison your dinner, but you ate it anyway. none of us could live without a good portion of faith. yet why does faith become a dirty word when religion uses it? not having the proof for something doesn't lessen it's value spiritually or scientifically. and einstein's theory of relativity isn't lessened by the fact he was unable to explain what gravity actually is. neither should religious theory be lessened by the fact that god cannot be explained. no-one calls stephen hawking an idiot because he cannot explain dark matter. religions need to be better at expressing doubts about things they are unsure of. problems arise of course when fundamentalists feel they ARE sure. that's the death of the religious journey, in my humble opinion. you see, it's not important to me if god exists. i believe he does, but i have no evidence yet. overridingly, i think god OUGHT to exist. and more importantly, he ought to be real. does that answer your question? i am a deist with all the doubts of an atheist. what separates me from an atheist isn't my faith in god. it's that i lack the faith in the absence of god they possess. i don't know if i have comfort and security. i feel happy to be alive, i feel that life is full of glorious possibility, but eternal reward and my own fluffy cloud? who knows. the experience of living is its own reward. the journey is its own reward. i am filled with wonder now, on earth. that's enough. because in a universe that has no reason, on a planet that has no reason, and in a body that has no reason, why does there have to be a reason for god? why must belief in god have a reason to be seen as legitimate? perhaps this all-pervading lack of reason is, in fact, MORE reason, not less, to entertain the possibility that a god we cannot reason for might also exist... just a thought.
Moose Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 By:converse02 How is calling your religion a superstition insulting? From you own definition, a superstition is irrational. What am I suppose to call a belief that says a virgin can give birth, snakes can talk, the universe was created in six days, the sky is a dome shaped "firmament," Noah fit every animal on Earth on an Ark, witches exist, gays once deserved to die, and a guy who somehow got himself executed by Jews/Romans is actually the savior of the universe? This is as rational as Athena being born from the skull of Zeus.You, and your belief in the work of mere man, and the faith you place in what is taught in MAN made institutions is just as irrational to me as what you don't believe is in my heart, mind and soul. A very real, very intense physical, mental and tangible evidence has been presented to me, it's something I know and feel. You can't experience this unless you are, me. This is my religion, and it's very real. Not a superstition. Calling my religion a superstion, is calling it irrational, which is calling me irrational..... Two questions for you: You openly admit you're an athiest. I don't attack you on that do I? The only forum you post in is in the Spiritual & Religion Beliefs, why is that?
converse02 Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 why must belief in god have a reason to be seen as legitimate? After reading the Bible, it is clear that it contained rules and dogma about how one should live their life. Often, politicans quote the Bible when passing new laws that govern the lives of many, whether it be about divorce, the rights of gays, the death penalty or some forth. Isn't it important to know if the claims of a particular religion are legitimate, even if the existance of God X is legitmate? Before the crusades or the terrorists of 9/11 crashed, wouldn't you say it's rather important they tried to find good reasons and question whether their God, or any other God for that matter, really exists? perhaps this all-pervading lack of reason is, in fact, MORE reason, not less, to entertain the possibility that a god we cannot reason for might also exist... There is little reason to suspect Santa or elves are real. I doubt the lack of reason is in fact MORE reason to believe in such nonsense.
converse02 Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 You, and your belief in the work of mere man, and the faith you place in what is taught in MAN made institutions is just as irrational to me as what you don't believe is in my heart, mind and soul. What do you think of other religious texts? Scientology, Koran, the Avesta, the Roman Gods, the Buddhist scriptures. Do you not suspect they are MAN made, untruths by our primitive ancestors, only falsely claiming to be from God? You and I are not so different, only I suspect one more scripture to be an untruth than you. Since I have seen the evidence myself, it do not have "belief," I "know" it is the most likely explanation. Evolution today is more than the work of one mere man, but is a work constantly being verified and reaffirm by EVERY scientifically prominent university on the planet. What principals do you think modern biology and genetics operate by? What other explanation is their besides evolution fits into what we observe in nature so coherently? ALL sciences, from geology, anthropology, physics (radiometric dating), even paleo-climatology supports evolution. Having researched, studied, and understand the mechanisms of evolution myself, it cannot be denied. It's not a matter of belief, it's a matter of accepting reality based on the evidence shown in nature. A very real, very intense physical, mental and tangible evidence has been presented to me, it's something I know and feel. Don't mean to sound cold, but I'm certain people who built the Great pyramids and the terrorists of 9/11 felt the same way. Nearly every religion/cult has members that feel that. All have faith, all are devoted, all can't be right. It is not a barometer of truth. Calling my religion a superstion, is calling it irrational, which is calling me irrational..... Sometimes you have to call a white elephant a white elephant. I have stated my reasons for calling your religion irrational in my previous post. I don't think they are unreasonable. I await for you to show me different, if you can. You openly admit you're an athiest. I don't attack you on that do I? I don't see myself as attacking your religion either, but rather rising legitimate questions. The only forum you post in is in the Spiritual & Religion Beliefs, why is that? This is the most fasinating part of the forums.
Moose Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 What do you think of other religious texts? Scientology, Koran, the Avesta, the Roman Gods, the Buddhist scriptures. Do you not suspect they are MAN made, untruths by our primitive ancestors, only falsely claiming to be from God?Yes, as a matter of fact, I do. I don't, however, go off and call them superstitions. I also don't call the followers irrational. To me, ther are more, "Misled" than anything else. Just like a lot of people....Evolution today is more than the work of one mere man, but is a work constantly being verified and reaffirm by EVERY scientifically prominent university on the planet.And I'm telling you, that NO, I repeat, NO Prominent University knows these findings, or works to be absolutes.What principals do you think modern biology and genetics operate by?If it's so perfect, then why is it that scientist continually find flaws in their original conclusions in biology, and genetics?? This happens ALL THE TIME!! Sugar is bad for you......oh wait.....sugar is good for you.....oh wait.....it's bad for you again.....this is just one example. Even this morning, I saw on the tube where Ambien is being blamed for that english man who stripped off his shirt and starting acting violently on a flight......What other explanation is their besides evolution fits into what we observe in nature so coherently? ALL sciences, from geology, anthropology, physics (radiometric dating), even paleo-climatology supports evolution.What other explanation? YOU'RE BEING DUPED MAN!! You're being deceived......wake up!Having researched, studied, and understand the mechanisms of evolution myself, it cannot be denied. It's not a matter of belief, it's a matter of accepting reality based on the evidence shown in nature. Oh yes it can be denied. I'm doing that right now. Just because you've manged to convince YOURSELF, doesn't make it so!!!Sometimes you have to call a white elephant a white elephant. I have stated my reasons for calling your religion irrational in my previous post. I don't think they are unreasonable. I await for you to show me different, if you can. I refuse to stoop to your level.....
quankanne Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 very well put, bluetuesday ... especially the part about the men in dresses :laugh: :laugh: the pomp and circumstance of the Catholic Church aside, and the God-fearing Scripture-spouting of evangelicals and fundamentalists aside, it all boils down to this: one's faith is the response to an invitation from God for a relationship with him. Having researched, studied, and understand the mechanisms of evolution myself, it cannot be denied. It's not a matter of belief, it's a matter of accepting reality based on the evidence shown in nature. because one embraces spirituality doesn't mean the world as we know it ceases to exist, that evolution comes to a halt or science stops seeking answers. It just means that this person's viewpoint takes on an added dimension due to that spirituality. Hence my thought that science and faith do not cancel each other out. on the subject of the prolific spiritual writings available: one text doesn't supersede another when you consider that they record or reflect a spiritual journey toward God.
Moose Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 It just means that this person's viewpoint takes on an added dimension due to that spirituality. Hence my thought that science and faith do not cancel each other out. Exactley. Well put. Just because I have my religion, it doesn't mean that science doesn't hold some validity. I'm just saying that I don't place a lot of stock in what man can conjur up, even when he uses proven science. I know full well that all of these things will be explained to me, and I'll FULLY understand all of these great mysterys someday soon enough. So I'm quick not to believe what some, "Prominent University" is going to assume as truth..........
quankanne Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 I'm just saying that I don't place a lot of stock in what man can conjur up, even when he uses proven science. I know full well that all of these things will be explained to me, and I'll FULLY understand all of these great mysterys someday soon enough. I dunno ... sometimes that something remains a mystery and cannot be easily explained is a prize within itself, because the awe remains. That it's not all boiled down to nuts and bolts, if you will, but remains something singular within itself. Like conception. We know what needs to be present for it to occur, we know physiologically what happens when it takes place, we understand how the cells divide and divide to create a new little being, we know what to expect when that mama-creature gives birth. Still, when you think about all the odds against the whole process, it's amazing the birth has taken place, be it a litter of pups or a human baby ... there's something so mysterious, so awesome at the whole process. Even when one understands how it all works. faith and spirituality are like that, being able to see past the obvious, to understand more than just the knowlege behind said event or action … Richard told me about a 2001 incident in India where red rain fell, that scientists were trying to figure out why it was that color and why it stained people's clothes pink, and why it acted as a flamatory on trees. observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1723913,00.html according to news reports, scientists who studied this could only conclude that it was alien bacteria from a passing comet that caused these things to occur when it mixed in our atmosphere. on the one hand, this incident gives scientists cause for their search for knowledge, but on the other hand, there is a sense of awe present, because it opens up the question of what else is out there, of breaking past the "me, us" thing to an awareness of something more out there. Which is exactly what faith and spirituality is about.
blind_otter Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 . It just means that this person's viewpoint takes on an added dimension due to that spirituality. Hence my thought that science and faith do not cancel each other out. Believing that Satan put dinosaur fossils in the earth with verifiable carbon dating seems too ridiculous. I'm sorry, it does. Also claiming that the tower of babel actually existed and "if God meant for the races to mix, he would have kept them that way" is also not only ridiculous, it's patently offensive.
blind_otter Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 In its proper sense faith means trusting the word of another. Scientific investigation must adhere to the scientific method, a process for evaluating empirical knowledge under the working assumption of methodological materialism, which explains observable events in nature as a result of natural causes, rejecting supernatural notions. What I fail to understand, consistently, is why there is this need to make the two mutually exclusive terms equitable in some way. As if it's "less than" to have faith be just that, faith, and somehow faith must be equal to science in all things. When it comes to MY faith, it's acceptible for me to have the two mutually exclusive principles in my head. One set is specifically geared towards the unnameable and spiritual, the other data set is applicable towards the exploration and understanding of my phsyical realm and never the twain shall meet. I've also had my own personal experiences with the divine.
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