Society has lost it's ability for independent thought

[whichwayisup]

 

Banging is all about the males...But foreplay is all about the woman!

[Outcast]

Sorry to hijack the hijack but a gal's gotta work..

 

Just a few things:

 

I teach one thing and one thing first to all of my students ........

 

You must first look to yourself to understand what error you made to cause the undesired reaction.

 

Maybe you didn't make an error. That assumes that the observer or the person who feels you have erred is himself in the right, has no baggage, no issues, and no inner causes to misinterpret your words or actions. Nobody's that balanced. I would say, rather, 'if you err, discuss the issue with the person you upset and find out why they were bothered by what you did'. People get themselves into no end of trouble by second-guessing others.

 

OC, I have great respect for your insight - and as a general philosophical argument, this is certainly possible. But in this case, given the additional information we have on, say, both SF and Woggle, I don't think it rings true.

 

I was talking about myself, mostly, however I wouldn't toss SF and Wog in the same pot.

 

the number of generalizing comments about shallow or ruthless women that yes, both Woggle and SF have made. Those comments don't come from a place of security, but from insecurity and defensiveness.

 

The difference is that if you suggest to SF that he might rethink his statements and give a good reason why, he'll quite often agree. Wog wavers but tends to keep landing on the side of serious misogyny.

 

And to assume at first that everyone is different or an individual who is different from you seems to be like a good thing, because then when they act or react differently from what you think is appropriate, instead of getting all worked up about it, you can just say HEY! they are probably just different from me. I don't need to take this personally

 

Oh you radical, you

 

I'm talking about the complexities involved in socializing. I seem to see the onus of responsibility placed on the communicator's shoulders to be all out there and obvious about their motivations, who they are, what they are, their personal philosophies, blah blah BLAH.

 

Like in terms of verbal shortcuts I have the TIME to do that with everyone I talk to. That is just complete bulls***. Utter pap

 

Yup. Agreed.

 

Or is it just Ayn Rand's concept of individuality that is opposed to that?

 

Yep.

 

because you NEED to be able to make an educated guess on how people will respond to you. It's a protective measure.

 

Which is why it's useful to know - so you can then govern yourself accordingly.

 

it would be hard work at first, but ultimately far less draining as a result of improved relationships and loss of baggage.

 

Why not just acknowledge that others are different and not allow yourself to make assumptions about others' motivations? Far less work than it would be to 'renew' yourself at every meeting.

 

OK, kids - back to playing. Me, I gotta eat.

[loony]

You say "because you are a woman." That certainly is true, however, you are only just YOU. Does it annoy you because you have a need to *stand up and defend* ALL women? What about standing up for YOU only and not allow ridiculous comments about women IN GENERAL to affect you? You do not represent ALL women - you are an individual - so those generalised comments shouldn't affect you negatively, right?

I find it less illogical if I as a woman get offended by misogynist remarks than when you get upset about Alphamale's comments. How about questioning your own motivation???

[newbby]

Why not just acknowledge that others are different and not allow yourself to make assumptions about others' motivations? Far less work than it would be to 'renew' yourself at every meeting.

 

 

okay...

i have some problems in my life at the moment because of this issue.

i threw out what i said because it is a stage in my development in trying to deal with these things. "renewing" myself has worked to an extent. i have noticed less of the behaviour that i percieved in others before i did this. i have noticed that even if people want to play out their own problems, they cant involve me when i do this. still though, there are some things which would affect things regardless of how i renew myself, or deal with them.

what if, there is somebody who has wronged you, and you have to deal with them in the future/present?

do you think:

1) "it is just my perception that they have wronged me" and put yourself back in the situation?

2)do you try hard not to hold on to the past and react only to what they do exactly when they do it?,

or do you

3)think it doesnt matterwhether they did me wrong or not, but since i feel this way when i am around them, no matter how much work i do on myself, then i should not put myself in the situation???

2 & 3 are "ascribing motives" as you put it, but 1 doesnt help me at all.

 

i'm only asking because i have to make a decision whether or not to go somewhere that i will be faced with this, if i dont go, it also affects somebody else. it is hard to say whether this positively or negatively affects this other person, because surely, if i am upset by the situation, then it doesnt help anybody around me.

i am far from enlightened. so i know that i will be affected by how these other people treat me.

[lindya]

what if, there is somebody who has wronged you, and you have to deal with them in the future/present?

do you think:

1) "it is just my perception that they have wronged me" and put yourself back in the situation?

2)do you try hard not to hold on to the past and react only to what they do exactly when they do it?,

or do you

3)think it doesnt matterwhether they did me wrong or not, but since i feel this way when i am around them, no matter how much work i do on myself, then i should not put myself in the situation???

2 & 3 are "ascribing motives" as you put it, but 1 doesnt help me at all.

 

i'm only asking because i have to make a decision whether or not to go somewhere that i will be faced with this, if i dont go, it also affects somebody else. it is hard to say whether this positively or negatively affects this other person, because surely, if i am upset by the situation, then it doesnt help anybody around me.

i am far from enlightened. so i know that i will be affected by how these other people treat me.

 

Is this a work situation, newbby? Whatever situation it is, if you walk away from a situation feeling wronged, then that tends to be a sign of unresolved conflict. Lots of people enjoy triggering off and participating in conflict...but are less keen to do the really difficult part of sitting down to resolve it in a balanced manner. If someone has refused to give you the opportunity to do that, then the conflict will continue to niggle at you. Referring to your 3 methods of dealing with this, I could respond with 3 corresponding descriptions of conflict management

 

1. Avoid it by pretending it isn't there.

2. Be ready to confront and manage conflict as and when it arises. Remain aware of previous baggage to minimise its impact and influence on any future conflicts.

3. Remove yourself from the source of the conflict.

 

1 is appropriate in certain situations...ie if someone's taking a mild swipe at you because there in a bad, stressed out mood. Sometimes you just let things slide - which is being enlightened in a sense. The problem is that if you keep letting things slide, and allowing others to vent their spleen without ever challenging them for it, it can build up inside you and explode. Enlightenment, as you said, is a hugely difficult thing to achieve. One day you think you have it, the next day you just want to howl furiously at the moon.

 

2 is probably the most ideal solution...but the most difficult one to master.

 

3 Not ideal - but in certain situations (eg if dealing with a pathological bully who is immoveably entrenched in a particular situation and expects others to make all the compromises) then you just have to do it.

 

From your posts, you strike me as someone who actually would be able to confront and deal with conflict appropriately....but depending on the circumstances you might need an independent third party to provide a safe environment in which you can do that. Especially if the person you've been in conflict with is very stuck in believing that they're right about everything.

 

You come across as someone who's reasoned and able to look at both sides of the situation. I think that's great - but people in entrenched positions will be likely to view it as a weakness that can be exploited. That's why, whatever the situation is, it could be helpful to involve someone to act as a mediator.

 

Just having someone there to impartially observe conflict playing out can place pressure on both parties to resolve that conflict in a reasonable manner. Any attempts by an entrenched party to manipulate the situation or bulldoze the other person with their fixed viewpoint will be easier to expose....and obviously, if you get someone who's trained in conflict management, they'll be better placed to help the parties resolve things in that reasonable manner. So if it is a work situation, you might think about insisting on a session like that before you return to it.

[a4a]

 

Maybe you didn't make an error. That assumes that the observer or the person who feels you have erred is himself in the right, has no baggage, no issues, and no inner causes to misinterpret your words or actions. Nobody's that balanced. I would say, rather, 'if you err, discuss the issue with the person you upset and find out why they were bothered by what you did'. People get themselves into no end of trouble by second-guessing others.

 

 

 

.

 

You dingle berry I am talking about my riding students

and regardless if my H does something wrong/ undesired reaction to what I ask or tell him, or course I say ........ geeze did I handle that wrong? obviously I was not clear and you misinterpeted my words. However I have to look to see if I could have done a better job to communicate them to you. There is no second guessing others, you look to yourself to change before you expect others to do so.

 

a4a-la la la

[newbby]

Is this a work situation, newbby? Whatever situation it is, if you walk away from a situation feeling wronged, then that tends to be a sign of unresolved conflict. Lots of people enjoy triggering off and participating in conflict...but are less keen to do the really difficult part of sitting down to resolve it in a balanced manner. If someone has refused to give you the opportunity to do that, then the conflict will continue to niggle at you. Referring to your 3 methods of dealing with this, I could respond with 3 corresponding descriptions of conflict management

 

1. Avoid it by pretending it isn't there.

2. Be ready to confront and manage conflict as and when it arises. Remain aware of previous baggage to minimise its impact and influence on any future conflicts.

3. Remove yourself from the source of the conflict.

 

1 is appropriate in certain situations...ie if someone's taking a mild swipe at you because there in a bad, stressed out mood. Sometimes you just let things slide - which is being enlightened in a sense. The problem is that if you keep letting things slide, and allowing others to vent their spleen without ever challenging them for it, it can build up inside you and explode. Enlightenment, as you said, is a hugely difficult thing to achieve. One day you think you have it, the next day you just want to howl furiously at the moon.

 

2 is probably the most ideal solution...but the most difficult one to master.

 

3 Not ideal - but in certain situations (eg if dealing with a pathological bully who is immoveably entrenched in a particular situation and expects others to make all the compromises) then you just have to do it.

 

From your posts, you strike me as someone who actually would be able to confront and deal with conflict appropriately....but depending on the circumstances you might need an independent third party to provide a safe environment in which you can do that. Especially if the person you've been in conflict with is very stuck in believing that they're right about everything.

 

You come across as someone who's reasoned and able to look at both sides of the situation. I think that's great - but people in entrenched positions will be likely to view it as a weakness that can be exploited. That's why, whatever the situation is, it could be helpful to involve someone to act as a mediator.

 

Just having someone there to impartially observe conflict playing out can place pressure on both parties to resolve that conflict in a reasonable manner. Any attempts by an entrenched party to manipulate the situation or bulldoze the other person with their fixed viewpoint will be easier to expose....and obviously, if you get someone who's trained in conflict management, they'll be better placed to help the parties resolve things in that reasonable manner. So if it is a work situation, you might think about insisting on a session like that before you return to it.

 

thankyou for your response lindya.

it is very helpful.

i wish it was a work situation. actually it is a family situation and has caused me untold stress and unhappiness for a long time. i have come back to response 3 over and over, but then tried 2, sometimes with pleasant outcomes, but usually ending in tears again at some later date.

[SmoochieFace]

I find it less illogical if I as a woman get offended by misogynist remarks than when you get upset about Alphamale's comments.

 

Care to explain that?

 

Let's see... Alphamale makes misogynist remarks on an ongoing basis. He has even said that he abuses women. I take offense to that. Why would THAT be illogical to you? Is it because I am a male and males are supposed to *band together* and have the same mindset? Or is it extremely difficult for you to comprehend that, yes Virginia, there ARE guys who actually go against the grain of the Alphamales of the world?

[loony]

Care to explain that?

 

Let's see... Alphamale makes misogynist remarks on an ongoing basis. He has even said that he abuses women. I take offense to that. Why would THAT be illogical to you? Is it because I am a male and males are supposed to *band together* and have the same mindset? Or is it extremely difficult for you to comprehend that, yes Virginia, there ARE guys who actually go against the grain of the Alphamales of the world?

Are you playing stupid or what??? You ask me why I get so upset and feel offended and then you go and defend yourself for doing the same? In what kind of absurd world are you living???

 

 

It quite annoys me when people walk around and say that women are this, women are that except for my girlfriend, because I am a woman.

 

Something else I want to point out here...

 

You say "because you are a woman." That certainly is true, however, you are only just YOU. Does it annoy you because you have a need to *stand up and defend* ALL women? What about standing up for YOU only and not allow ridiculous comments about women IN GENERAL to affect you? You do not represent ALL women - you are an individual - so those generalised comments shouldn't affect you negatively, right?

[a4a]

Care to explain that?

 

Let's see... Alphamale makes misogynist remarks on an ongoing basis. He has even said that he abuses women. I take offense to that. Why would THAT be illogical to you? Is it because I am a male and males are supposed to *band together* and have the same mindset? Or is it extremely difficult for you to comprehend that, yes Virginia, there ARE guys who actually go against the grain of the Alphamales of the world?

 

No Smooch there are men that will not even cave in within a male only group that applies pressure to them!

I have to say my H is one of those :love:

 

I will say that from time to time I agree with Alpha and find his humor quite amusing. The way I look at it, I am not dating him, not married to him, will never share an intimate moment with him......... so no skin off my back if he keeps posting from his "he man women haters club". I have not read that he actually says I abuse women, I mean like he physically abuses them. Did I miss something?

[SmoochieFace]

Are you playing stupid or what??? You ask me why I get so upset and feel offended and then you go and defend yourself for doing the same? In what kind of absurd world are you living???

 

So why is it *illogical* then? Why is it all right for YOU to get upset over something and for me to not get upset over something? Huh?!

[SmoochieFace]

I will say that from time to time I agree with Alpha and find his humor quite amusing.

 

And that is yet another thing I don't get. What the hell is so humourous about a guy who says that he abuses women and basically hates them (whenever he isn't getting what he wants from them, of course! )

[loony]

So why is it *illogical* then? Why is it all right for YOU to get upset over something and for me to not get upset over something? Huh?!

Go and play your manipulative games with someone else, this is ridiculous.

[SmoochieFace]

Go and play your manipulative games with someone else, this is ridiculous.

 

Fine, we both agree that misogynistic remarks from guys are offensive therefore we have no need to *fight* any longer. Hallelujah... we *beep* agree! How's THAT for being *logical*!

 

Now... there's the door and it's wide open for you. Buh-bye, loony. Have a nice day.

[Outcast]

Smooch, because you did make a few rather broad and unpleasant statements about women, I believe loony believes you to be an Alphamale writ small. She llumps you in with Woggle in her thinking. I think she missed the posts where when you made some Alpha-ish statements and were taken to task, you acknowledged the error of your ways. So she still believes you're an unrepentant misogynist which is why she's saying what she's saying.

[loony]

Smooch, because you did make a few rather broad and unpleasant statements about women, I believe loony believes you to be an Alphamale writ small. She llumps you in with Woggle in her thinking. I think she missed the posts where when you made some Alpha-ish statements and were taken to task, you acknowledged the error of your ways. So she still believes you're an unrepentant misogynist which is why she's saying what she's saying.

I actually see a mixture of both kinds of posts. Sometimes he rants about women, sometimes he will defend them against Alphamale. At the same time his comments have the character of malicious slides against Alphamale with the purpose of putting him down and not defending women. And no, most of the time I do not agree with Alphamale, but I also wonder why you should let someone play his mind games with people.

[SmoochieFace]

So she still believes you're an unrepentant misogynist which is why she's saying what she's saying.

 

Well, guess what? She's wrong. Perhaps she needs a lesson in the fact that people are capable of changing and growing.

 

She reminds me of Mommy Dearest. Once you *beep* up with her, she'll hold it over your head LOOOOONG after the *sin* was *atoned*. Amazing!

 

Mommy Dearest is STILL holding *beep* that I did or said when I was tennish over my head... she sure is one bitter and miserable woman. Her problem - not mine.

 

Same thing with this situation here...

[SmoochieFace]

...but I also wonder why you should let someone play his mind games with people.

 

It's only a game in your mind. Once again, it's all about perception - and, once again, perceptions CAN be inaccurate or outright wrong. Didn't I say that just yesterday?

[Outcast]

I don't see any 'mind game'. Alpha posts misogynistic stuff, Smooch refutes it just the way I do. I'm not playing 'games' and I haven't seen other anti-misogynists play 'games' either.