loony Posted February 7, 2006 Posted February 7, 2006 Anxiety and nervousness are some of the factors that create attraction to another. Do you not know this? If a potential partner does not create some form of anxiety and nervousness in you then you'd better move on to someone who does cause that ain't the right person! There's good and nice nervousness when you feel butterflies in your stomach and you're anxious that he will reciprocate your feelings even though you actually know he also has fallen for you. And then there is this anxiousness and nervousness that feeds from the insecurity of not knowing what is actually going on. You wonder if he is interested in you, you wonder if he is not playing games with you, if he might not be seeing other girls and not telling you, you wonder if he is not trying to manipulate you into liking him because in fact he has nothing substantial to offer, you worry if he won't hurt your feelings, etc. That's the kind of negativity that I don't need and usually when this happens I'm out.
cygny Posted February 7, 2006 Posted February 7, 2006 amer sorry to hear things did not go well. but there's alot of "material" here to look at. as for how things played out--i think you should have either found an excuse to get out of the date or just gone on the date and acted like we discussed. Your explanation to her made alot of assumptions and it was too early in the relationship to 'discuss' the relationship. anything you said should have been casual and lighthearted. by having a relationship talk, you made things awkward and killed the game. perhaps she was just playing hard to get with you and at the same time waiting to see if you were just interested in getting in her pants. the 5-minute rule hasn't been true in my history. there have been a few men that I took quite awhile to develop sexual feelings for, and some of these men have become long-term friends. as for the other topics--if i found out that some guy i liked and had thought could be special to me was dating other women and was so nonchalant about it, i wouldn't think, "wow he's got options too, guess i better get into line" rather i would blow him off and date others too, since i also have other options. the logic is, if several guys are chatting me up every day, why should i take s*** from anybody? the answer is, i don't. (after all, wouldn't it be stupid if i did?) otoh, the guy has be "cool". by that i mean, he has to be sure of himself and the dating has to look effortless for him. there can be no hint of game-playing, so if he's trying to operate some mindgame, it has to be done so well i can't tell. it's better if he shows real interest in me, and enthusiasm, without being clingy or seeking approval. strong confident and fun for the first several dates. but even more important, unless i see some 'potential' for a future relationship, i'm not likely to waste my time or go very far. i'm after quality not quantity.
Author amerikajin Posted February 8, 2006 Author Posted February 8, 2006 Cygny, loony, and blind otter score again...I wish I would have considered more carefully what you all said earlier, but I guess I thought things were progressing the way I was doing things. I think you guys have really summed it up best for me and I guess this has amounted to nothing more than a painful lesson. Yes, every move I made was calculated and 'studied'...and I think that somehow she sensed that on one level - women usually have a pretty good bulls*** radar. I think what I was dealing with here was a real woman, one who for once really wasn't into games, and she meant it. But for some reason I was playing games thinking it would make me more more of a 'challenge' and keep her interest level high. I think that stuff works if you're with some confused, immature girl, but I don't think that stuff works if you're trying to build something substantive with someone worthwhile. Sure, you have to hold back and approach things as friends first but I think that you also have to show interest and be real if you've got the feeling. Working together only made me more self-conscious so perhaps I calculated and studied even more than I would have ordinarily. Perhaps if there had been more distance, I could have just thought more about our dates than how to behave at work. In the end, I guess things worked out as they should have. I wasn't confident about our relationship, and so in the end, neither was she. I probably jumped the gun which only made me come across as more confused...something that's not attractive. Ugh! Ah well...I'm in slightly better spirits this morning. And no whiskey was involved. I actually got a decent night's sleep for once in the past week. I guess I worry so much because I'm 32 and still don't have any long-term prospects. I enter relationships with that on my mind, I guess. I guess I feel old. So, to the ladies out there...what do you think when you see a 32-year-old guy who's never been married?
cygny Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 amer, honestly...you sound like one of the most decent, thoughtful guys...you'll make someone very happy...and forget 32, it's the 42yo and never been married that are bad news, generally. so you can relax on both counts. you are actually very young. btw i think it's great to take this as a learning experience--and even to have a few rules, if you will--but they have to look effortless and unstudied to the other party--that's the key. glad you're feeling better.
Author amerikajin Posted February 8, 2006 Author Posted February 8, 2006 Thanks for the vote of confidence, cygny:) The thing is, she is a decent girl. We talked a lot about each other, our backgrounds, interests and what not. She wasn't just a pretty face...but I just couldn't seem to get over her pretty face. In my head, I was all hung up on my ego and feeding it by playing these mind-f*** games. Hopefully this'll just blow over and we can at least be cordial again. I know dating's out of the picture but I'd hope that she won't avoid me forever. Learning experiences are very important, and I try my best to understand what they are. I've made a lot of mistakes in my past relationships, both long and short. I feel like I'm still learning and that I have a lot to learn. I wish I would've known all this stuff when I was 22...would've made life easier in a lot of ways. But, the show must go on. Thanks for your interest and input on this thread. (btw, was going to send a pm but noticed you disabled your box).
gfto Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 But for some reason I was playing games thinking it would make me more more of a 'challenge' and keep her interest level high. I think that stuff works if you're with some confused, immature girl, but I don't think that stuff works if you're trying to build something substantive with someone worthwhile. I've been following this thread, and with all due respect, I don't think you were ever in with this girl to begin with. Challenge always works. It has nothing to do with her maturity level. But, she has to have a certain level of interest in you before challenge will work. If her interest level in you is below a certain point right out of the gate, then there's nothing you can do to raise it. You deserve a pat on the back though for recognizing that you were wasting your time and then bailing out.
Author amerikajin Posted February 8, 2006 Author Posted February 8, 2006 Actually, to be honest, the best relationship I've ever had with a woman was one in which I was anything but a challenge. I mean, I was cautious, but it was obvious how I felt early on, as it was how she felt about me. There was no bulls*** jedi mind-tricking involved, it was real attraction between two very real people. I will say that from a guy's perspective it is always easier if the girl is more into you than you are into her, but the difference has to be marginal so that you don't become bored. I think that in this case, she was into me at first. The raw attraction may not have been there for me as much as it would have been for other guys, I'll concede that. But I'm guessing a woman as hot as this chick is has better things to do than to spend her free time with some guy she's not really all that attracted to. I didn't pay for her meals or buy her gifts so it's not like I was a meal ticket or anything. I do think that I was more into her than she was into me, in retrospect. I think maybe that I didn't like this fact, and I grew insecure about it. But rather than using the opportunities that she gave me to show her what a good catch I was, I was using it to try and play mind-chess with her, and I was also starting to flip out. I should have followed the advice my ex gave me when we had our very first sexual encounter...'let go'.
loony Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 Actually, to be honest, the best relationship I've ever had with a woman was one in which I was anything but a challenge. I mean, I was cautious, but it was obvious how I felt early on, as it was how she felt about me. There was no bulls*** jedi mind-tricking involved, it was real attraction between two very real people. Quod erat demonstrandum. what do you think when you see a 32-year-old guy who's never been married? Oh, shuddup...
Outcast Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 Challenge always works. No it doesn't. It bores lots of people to death, especially when it's faked.
Outcast Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 Just wanted to add I personally don't believe in the "women are slow to warm up to men" theory. As we've discussed before, women know within 5 minutes of meeting a new dude whether or not she'll sleep with him. Women are not all stamped out with the same cookie-cutter. And IMHO people who depend on lust to draw them into relationships end up in grief too often. Lust is about your biology wanting you to mate and has little to do with the quality and nature of a man. For me, lust develops from love and not the other way hindmost and love doesn't happen 'in the first 5 minutes'.
blind_otter Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 I think you didn't like how you were becoming around her. Or how you were acting. I've done that before. Please no comments on "no one can MAKE you feel anything" -- because I've been in relationships or casually dated people who brought out elements of my personality, or underscored them, that I wasn't completely comfortable with or happy about. Or brought things to my attention that I needed to change, but not in the context of a relationship.
Author amerikajin Posted February 8, 2006 Author Posted February 8, 2006 I think you didn't like how you were becoming around her. Or how you were acting. I've done that before. Please no comments on "no one can MAKE you feel anything" -- because I've been in relationships or casually dated people who brought out elements of my personality, or underscored them, that I wasn't completely comfortable with or happy about. Or brought things to my attention that I needed to change, but not in the context of a relationship. YES!!! Exactamundo. It just got to the point where it was uncomfortable, especially seeing her at work all the time. I felt restrained, and there was something inside of me saying 'Should it really be like this?' I'm a notorious over-analyzer, but believe it or not, around the right company, I can relax and have a good time. Our dates were okay in terms of the fun factor, and I thought she was a fundamentally sound person, but I can't say I ever felt totally comfortable around her.
alphamale Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 but I can't say I ever felt totally comfortable around her. and this is most likely cause of two reasons: 1) you work together 2) she probably comes from a different cultural or racial background than you.
loony Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 YES!!! Exactamundo. It just got to the point where it was uncomfortable, especially seeing her at work all the time. I felt restrained, and there was something inside of me saying 'Should it really be like this?' I'm a notorious over-analyzer, but believe it or not, around the right company, I can relax and have a good time. Our dates were okay in terms of the fun factor, and I thought she was a fundamentally sound person, but I can't say I ever felt totally comfortable around her. You put her on a pedestal, that's why. I've come to realize that the best thing you can do to yourself is to realize that you have the right to feel the way you feel. Stand up to your feelings. It's all these feelings of "I don't deserve her/him" that cause people to become depressed and desperate. When you are too afraid of expressing your vulnerability and your interest, the other person will lose respect for you, they will think you are a coward and they will subconsciously start believing that you both do not share the same level of attractiveness which will inevitably lead them to look for someone better and who has the same worth as they do.
Author amerikajin Posted February 8, 2006 Author Posted February 8, 2006 2) she probably comes from a different cultural or racial background than you. Her ethnicity is Indian. Feel free to drool. 1
alphamale Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 2) she probably comes from a different cultural or racial background than you. Her ethnicity is Indian. Feel free to drool. *alpha drools*
blind_otter Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 I keep saying there should be a drooling smiley. I would use it freely and without restraint.
cygny Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 I didn't pay for her meals or buy her gifts so it's not like I was a meal ticket or anything. How did this work? did you ask her out and then assume she would pay her own way? FWIW, I don't *expect* men to pay my way, but it is true that when a guy *lets* me pay my own way, I take a step back and put him into the friendzone, because this is how buddies go out. my feelings do that automatically. for romance, it's got to be more of a give-and-give-back thing.
alphamale Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 for romance, it's got to be more of a give-and-give-back thing. yes CYGNY, not unlike the pimp-'ho relationship
cygny Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 yes CYGNY, not unlike the pimp-'ho relationship oh, alpha, we all know your schtick, lol. actually, generosity is the exact opposite of a pimp/ho relationship. if someone *asks* me out on a date, or I *ask* them out, i assume that whoever *asks* pays. it works both ways. now if a guy feels like a ho if i pay his way, that's his problem. otoh, if someone says, i'm going to the concert on sunday night, do you want to go along? I assume we each pay our own way. it's a buddy thing. i just think it's weird and actually bad manners for a guy to plan an evening and then expect the woman to pay her share, primarily because "if i pay, i expect to have some say" as to where we are going etc. otherwise i might as well open my pocketbook and let the guy help himself, lol, since he's made all the decisions. i'm along for the ride which he's devised, but at the same time i am paying. it's not logical to me. so if a guy says, would you like to go out, and makes all the plans without consulting me, then expects me to pay, i feel a little cheated. it certainly doesn't inspire any desire to go out with him again, unless i get to do what i want to do or at least have input and veto power, since i am paying.
brightskies Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 The problem here is that you haven't given her the all important kiss test. You HAVE to go for that kiss on the lips no later than the second date. If you had done this, then you'd know where you stand. If it lands on her lips, you might have a live one. On the other hand, if she's not interested in you, then you're calling her bluff....she'll turn her head and the kiss will land on her cheek. Guy, your gut is talking to you, but you don't want to listen to it. Never ignore what your gut is telling you. If this girl was really into you, she would've welcomed a smooch right square on the lips in that elevator! All that being said, when you're on your next date, go for the kiss! If it lands on her cheek again, then it's best to flush the number and move on. I disagree with immediately going for the kiss on the 2nd date, especially if you can't read her signals. I've had dates that I initially liked very much try this and it scared me away -- too much too soon. You just need to pay attention to how comfortable you both are. Sometimes it takes a while to gauge her receptiveness. I've gone on 4 dates with this guy that I'm very interested in and we haven't even held hands or kissed on the mouth -- most we've done is a cheek kiss. I actually appreciate that he isn't being pushy and it piqued my interest in him more. I know he wants to, as he's admitted as much, but he also said that he senses I'm still nervous and I like that he's paying attention to that. Some other women might prefer a more aggressive approach. I know it's sometimes hard, especially if she's more reserved, but you just need to get a sense of which approach she'd be more receptive to before you make your move. but even more important, unless i see some 'potential' for a future relationship, i'm not likely to waste my time or go very far. i'm after quality not quantity. This is why I prefer to take my time and go slow. Also, you mentioned she is Indian. Perhaps her cultural background is a factor in her reserve/caution. Sorry to hear things didn't work out. You mentioned that one of your best relationships was with someone where the interest was mutual, there was caution, BUT no game-playing. Agreed. I find that things flow more smoothly this way.
Author amerikajin Posted February 8, 2006 Author Posted February 8, 2006 How did this work? did you ask her out and then assume she would pay her own way? No, on the first dinner date I offered but she politely declined. I said "Well the dinner's 2000 yen but it's ladies night." She told me she didn't feel comfortable with that and we sort of opened up a discussion about it. So we agreed to go dutch after that. I think a lot of this gets down to the fact that I haven't dated a Western woman in more than 4 years. I have totally forgotten about how different some women can be and reading signs can be a little bit different. I mean, to a great extent, women are women anywhere. But there are cultural differences one must acknowledge. I swear, this was the first woman who made me actually think in the last four years and I guess I just wasn't ready for it. And there were other 'issues' as well. I did put her on a pedestal...partly because it has been so long since I've been interested in someone the way I was interested in her. She's very attractive, not only physically but in the way she carries herself. She comes across as very sophisticated, and it is something I haven't seen much around here lately. I have intermittent thoughts of wanting to talk to her and see if there isn't some way I could explain all of this to her but I think that's wishful thinking.
tanbark813 Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 I don't know why but after reading all your descriptions of this girl, I picture her in my head as Veronica Corningstone (Christina Applegate) in Anchorman.
cygny Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 4 years IS a long time. it's good you got some practice in, lol so she is Indian as in India, but yet she is Western? so she grew up in the US? or is her culture that of India?
Author amerikajin Posted February 9, 2006 Author Posted February 9, 2006 No, she's Canadian and her family's actually from Guayana. Cygny, do you think it would be a bad idea to suggest coffee sometime and just talk to her, maybe explain where I am coming from? I mean, I wouldn't honestly expect anything, it's just that I feel like I might have confused the hell out of her. It is entirely possible that I just misread a lot of things. You were saying that some of the people you dated became friends afterward...how did that work?
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