ladies, where do i stand?

January 30, 2006

Saw her at work today. She flashed her customary smile at me as usual, so I am at least glad that she's not acting too funny around me. We've been keeping things on the down-low anyway, so it's not a big deal if we don't always acknowledge each other.

Even so, I'd say it's probably 50/50 at this point. I think that the general vibe has been good, but I know I have occasionally seemed uptight and perhaps a bit unsure of myself when it comes to reading her body language (i.e. last night).

I guess what perplexes me is that she has been the one to touch me all along. I'm not saying she grabbed my ass or anything (I wish), but she's been touching me whenever she speaks and so forth, and I have always found that to be a pretty reliable measure as to when a woman is more interested in physical contact. I'd say in every case before this one, when a woman touches me, it's on - not necessarily sex, but at least a big, fat smooch on the lips. But for some reason, it was off this time.

January 30, 2006

amer--

you seem almost exclusively focused on the physical. what about your common interests, fun with each other etc?

January 30, 2006

You raise a good point and one I've actually started to think about more throughout the day. I think the conversations have been good...there haven't really been too many prolonged lulls where we've just sat and looked at each other and contrived a conversation for the sheer sake of running our mouths.

I do have to say that I felt the last 30-45 minutes (post-kiss attempt) were a tad awkward because I was trying to recover gracefully. I don't honestly know what she thought of that. Again, the strange part was we were having what I thought was the freest conversation at dinner we'd had, and I thought we were having fun until I started making my moves - that's when I recall things getting tense.

I haven't dated a Western woman in nearly 4 years. I'm used to dating women who just more or less go with the flow, women who don't challenge me - which is something I've missed a lot as of late. Sad to say this but it's also been a long time since I've dated anyone I really considered high on the attractive scale.

January 30, 2006

Yeh, I usually go for a good-bye kiss on the first date. Didn't use too when I first started dating but now I'm much more aggressive when it come's to that. I'd say first date (first real big date) = good-nite kiss. On second big date you should go for a kiss during or if not try for a longer good-nite kiss, depends what her body language tells you. Girls are hard to read.

This past weekend I took a girl out to dinner and then a show. After the show I went for a kiss and although I gave her one on the lips, I could sense some hesitation because I got the cheek first. Or so it seemed. Anyways though I thought that was ok because a week ago at a staff party there were a lot of good-nite kisses between me and her.

January 30, 2006

how about taking the pressure off the physical side and just see where it goes in terms of personality, fun etc?

i am almost certain that is what she is thinking of. i'm sure she finds you attractive physically otherwise she wouldn't go out with you at all.

you might be sabotaging yourself by focusing on the kiss etc. just relax and have a good time.

be friends first. the physical is either there or it isn't. she'll likely hold back until she feels there is more potential for an emotional/compatible future.

if it doesn't work out, don't put it down to kissing her on the cheek, that would be silly IMO. it would almost certainly be because she just didn't think there was enough on the compatibility/chemistry side. that is no one's fault, certainly not yours.

good luck!

January 30, 2006

Problem 1:

Nowadays guys are hysterical and so skittish about being called a doormat and put into the friends zone that they discard friendships with women as if it was an icky disease. What do you intend to base your relationship upon?

Problem 2:

The many rules you have to follow. What to do on your first, second, third date. When to do this or that. "If I don't get a kiss on the first date it means she will put me into the friends zone, therefore I have to get it as soon as possible." I bet this attitude helps to get what you want...

Problem 3:

Being utterly fixated on her looks. Women know it when guys are bedazzled from their looks and otherwise have no clues about them. That is not attractive. The fixation also makes guys insecure because it places the girl on a pedestal.

January 30, 2006

loony,

I agree with you to a point. I've been in relationships where things moved quickly; I've been in others where things have moved slowly. I guess I'm sort of a strange one because I've always felt reassured when the pace moves fast, yet I also find that the relationship burns out faster. So maybe I need a slow relationship....whether it's this one or not.

January 30, 2006

I agree with Loony to some point about friendships, rules, and fixation.

At some points the rules just don't apply and have to be changed. A kiss on the third date or sex on the first date are just timing issues or "what is on the agenda" Both parties have to be comfortable. You might get a hug and kiss on the cheek which shows some signs she is interested. She might just be "conservative"

I had relationships where nothing on the 1st, 2nd, and boom, intimacy... and some that is fast on the first. Ditch some rules and be yourself. You also have to know yourself, can you be friends after dating someone or how long does it take before reconnecting as a friend.

January 31, 2006

At the end of the day, the $64,000 question is....does this girl really dig Amer? That's where the kiss comes in. It's so simple. All we're talking about is a quick peck on the lips. If she really digs him, then she's not gonna tense up and offer her cheek. It isn't about moving in for the kill or anything like that. It's just a simple test to check her interest level. Good conversation doesn't really count for much of anything if she has low romantic interest in you. I just don't want to see our good friend here spending his time and money on a woman who is ambivalent towards him. Believe it or not, there are lots of women out there who will date a guy in whom she isn't that interested. The "kiss test" weeds out these time wasters.

January 31, 2006

I do have to say that I felt the last 30-45 minutes (post-kiss attempt) were a tad awkward because I was trying to recover gracefully. I don't honestly know what she thought of that.

Maybe it was awkward not because of the attempt itself, but because you leaned in to try but then didn't follow through.

The private karaoke room also sounds a bit much for a 3rd date since you haven't kissed yet. I can see that adding pressure to the situation. If you can sing well, why not take her to a karaoke bar where you have an audience? Then you guys can have fun and you have the added bonus of her seeing other girls get all moist about your skills. (Of course, that last part doesn't apply if you suck. )

At any rate, you should just follow through and kiss her. If she's touching you and laughing at your jokes then you're probably good to go. And if she ends up not liking it, who cares? That just frees you from this horomone-saturated limbo so you can move on to someone else.

January 31, 2006

Always appreciate your input TB.

Now that I think about it, there's one other possible explanation. I remember putting my arm around in back of her - not on her but on the seat, behind her neck. She started to lean back and at first she seemed okay with it, but to be honest, since it was so impulsive I started to think it might have been inappropriate for me to be so presumptuous so I pulled it back. I'm wondering if she was aggravated by that - maybe saw me as indecisive or something. Everything was going well up to that time, though. I don't know...I think I'm doing too much wondering here, to be honest. That's one of my biggest probs in relationships.

Here's the thing. I've been initiating the action here, as a guy normally does. Would it be a bad move if I waited an extra few days (maybe two or three days longer than normal) to set up something and see if she doesn't in fact contact me?

January 31, 2006

Thanks.

I think your biggest problem is second-guessing yourself too much. Putting your arm around her but pulling it back, and leaning in to kiss but changing your mind could definitely leave her a bit confused. You should behave as though you already know she wants you.

It's kind of like public speaking: If you're unsure of yourself and nervous, your audience will be uncomfortable. But if you carry yourself confidently and speak with authority, it puts your audience at ease and they enjoy listening.

She will, to some degree, reflect whatever emotion you present to her.

Here's the thing. I've been initiating the action here, as a guy normally does. Would it be a bad move if I waited an extra few days (maybe two or three days longer than normal) to set up something and see if she doesn't in fact contact me?

IMHO, I think she's unlikely to contact you first (although it would be a good sign if she did, of course). If I were you I wouldn't wait extra long.

January 31, 2006

Thanks, TB. I think I'll try that and see what happens. I'm actually cool with it either way at this point...I guess I worry too much because in the beginning it's easy for small things to lead to misunderstandings.

A part of me thinks I let her down a little bit or maybe scared her in some way. But when I say that she hugged me, it wasn't just a light hug - she embraced me. She was actually gripping me and put her face up to mine, and I was just sort of confused thinking 'WTF? Is this the same girl who was looking at me weird in the elevator? Is she playing games?

I will say that in some of our conversations she has hinted that she is somewhat conservative. I didn't really add it all up until I started thinking about it. She has occasionally made references to how she is irritated at 'lust' (yes, she's beautiful and she knows she's beautiful, and I have no problem with a chick knowing she's beautiful unless I sense she's being obnoxious or she is starting to abuse me in some way). She hardly drinks alcohol. I don't think she's an absolute prude or anything but I just wonder if maybe she somehow saw me as coming on too strong in that situation.

January 31, 2006

Am I the only one wondering what ever happened to relaxing and going with the flow? Granted I am one of Florida's best over analyzers. But when it comes to dating, at the early stage in the game, if they click they click, if not, they don't. I don't see the good in trying to play it this way or that. I mean, is that really just being yourself when you think about it?

And then, if a relationship is founded on artifice and manipulation (which at a basic level, is all that "playing the game" is), what happens when you are IN a relationship and the potential mate is like, "what the hell? Where did that come from?" when you start really acting like yourself.

That's happened to me. I am all "out there" when I date people. Like Popeye, I yam what I yam. So I got to know this materials engineering grad student. He seemed ultra cool. But when we started being exclusive, all of a sudden he was a bundle of insecurity and prudishness. Something he had taken pains to hide from me whilst "playing the game" -- so I felt duped, and we split on bad terms, because I was sour at the whole thing.

I felt like he had studied me. There was no spontenaity or anything. Like every move he made was contemplated too much, not allowing for any part of his true, quirky personality, to come through. I got to know what he wanted me to know, not what he really was.

I think that's icky. But that's just me. I don't think too much when it comes to just getting to know someone.

January 31, 2006

a kiss on the cheeks is a bad sign. this is what one does to their sister...

January 31, 2006

Well said, Otter.

I've been trying to look at it that way. The truth is, I am a bundle of insecurity...but I also know that being a bundle of insecurity isn't attractive to most women I'd be interested in. I am secure in some ways, and there are times when I am very secure about many aspects of my life. But recently, for example, I've been hit with another wave of insecurity. I've got family problems, and some of my good friends have left, and I feel lonely all of a sudden. And now I'm preparing for admission to law school. I guess I've got a lot of personal crap that's eating me up and I don't know how to look at myself. I still respect myself, but there are things that nag at me. I've got issues, man, issues:o

Don't know why I'm putting all this pressure on myself all of a sudden with her. The reality is, this is not going to be a long-term relationship even if we do click. She's got her plans and I've got mine. I guess a part of my ego just wants this.

January 31, 2006

a kiss on the cheeks is a bad sign. this is what one does to their sister...

Ewwwww....

January 31, 2006

I've got issues, man, issues:o

we all have issues...and as you get older you get MORE issues.

I guess a part of my ego just wants this.

don't listen to your ego when dealing with the opposite sex. it will get you into trouble. the more objective your thought processes the better off you'll be.

January 31, 2006

Well said, Otter.

I've been trying to look at it that way. The truth is, I am a bundle of insecurity...but I also know that being a bundle of insecurity isn't attractive to most women I'd be interested in. I am secure in some ways, and there are times when I am very secure about many aspects of my life. But recently, for example, I've been hit with another wave of insecurity. I've got family problems, and some of my good friends have left, and I feel lonely all of a sudden. And now I'm preparing for admission to law school. I guess I've got a lot of personal crap that's eating me up and I don't know how to look at myself. I still respect myself, but there are things that nag at me. I've got issues, man, issues:o

Don't know why I'm putting all this pressure on myself all of a sudden with her. The reality is, this is not going to be a long-term relationship even if we do click. She's got her plans and I've got mine. I guess a part of my ego just wants this.

I'd like you to issue an honorary membership to the "I've got Issues, man" Club. Currently, the membership includes everyone on the freaking planet. /fun-nay

She's got issues, too, dude. Knowing there's not much at stake...then consider it an experiement. What would happen if...

And I understand the reticence in terms of potential co-worker ickiness. Hence, I try not to allow romantic entanglements between coworkers to occur. It's always resulted in ickiness for me.

January 31, 2006

I try not to allow romantic entanglements between coworkers to occur. It's always resulted in ickiness for me.

Been there, done that. It was real strange after breaking up.

Being insecure well that happens to people once in awhile. Everyone has issues and skeletons in their closets which they might be embarassed about. It is hard to deal with self issues and insecurities. Got to work on them one at a time. Can't swim, take swimming lessons. Can't dance, take dance lessons. Ok you might not be good in all aspects but at least you can tango?

February 1, 2006

She's from Toronto, if this is a factor at all.

I'm a damn Yankee, and we Yanks are aggressive when it comes to dating. So back home, 3rd date and no play = see ya. Usually men and women would agree on this, I think.

Yea I'm actually Canadian and couldn't get much going with Canadian girls. I'm from Toronto and the women there are very conservative and "safe". They don't like taking risks. I'm speaking from my experiences of living in Canada for 25 years.

Then I moved to new york and I'm fighting them off. 3rd date no play? Yes, that equals "see ya". But you have to respect a woman trying to take it slow. Maybe she's been burned in the past.

I'm in the same situation, bro. But got some play - but now I'M trying to take it slow and fall in love! Guess the Canadian is coming out of me.

February 3, 2006

Okay, so she has said yes to a 4th date.

My question is, is it okay to start getting into deeper conversation topics (i.e. relationships)? Not so much focussing on past relationships or failures, but just getting into things like attitudes, I guess. Is it okay to let your guard down a little on the fourth date? I don't mean revealing insecurities but I mean just being more open. What kinds of things should we talk about? Do I still keep it light and funny, or can I also start getting more serious? I'm thinking, too, that by the end of this date there should either be a kiss or that she should accept an offer for dinner at my place next time. If either of those things don't happen, then I guess I'm figuring I'm pretty much out into friends territory.

February 3, 2006

IME, mixing light/funny topics in with deep ones works well. Of course, I guess it depends on your and her personality type. As far as it being "okay", do what you want. If she gets offended or irritated then she's not your girl.

Don't puss out on the kiss attempt this time. You also probably shouldn't wait until the end of the date. That builds up too much pressure. Working it in at some random time will probably go over better.

February 3, 2006

Don't puss out on the kiss attempt this time.

Amen!

And, I'd stay away from deep/serious conversations topics. You definitely want to keep it light and funny. Think Jim Carey.

Good luck!!

February 3, 2006

Okay, so she has said yes to a 4th date.

My question is, is it okay to start getting into deeper conversation topics (i.e. relationships)? Not so much focussing on past relationships or failures, but just getting into things like attitudes, I guess. Is it okay to let your guard down a little on the fourth date? I don't mean revealing insecurities but I mean just being more open. What kinds of things should we talk about? Do I still keep it light and funny, or can I also start getting more serious? I'm thinking, too, that by the end of this date there should either be a kiss or that she should accept an offer for dinner at my place next time. If either of those things don't happen, then I guess I'm figuring I'm pretty much out into friends territory.

yes i think you should be more open, just not way open, lol. be relaxed and confident in yourself. talk about a few more serious things. she's not likely to let her guard down until you're willing to reveal more of yourself.

a kiss would be ok. what's up with the dinner invite though? sounds like you expect her to go to bed with you next time??? forget that, she's not the type.

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ladies, where do i stand?

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