Why nice guys finish last

[dgiirl]

Being goal oriented and confident is great. But there definitely is a fine line. If you have to TELL people constantly how great you are, instead of letting them decide for themselves, euh you cant be that great, now can you?

 

Maybe some women fall for that crap. I personally dont know any, but who knows. I prefer having a relationship with one person, not one person and his overly inflated ego.

[jerbear]

Maybe some women fall for that crap. I personally dont know any, but who knows. I prefer having a relationship with one person, not one person and his overly inflated ego.

 

I like the "not one person and his overly inflated ego"

 

I had seen people that inflate your ego and say they are not worthy, she is not blah, he is blah. I have some people say you are doing a good job, getting your life in order, getting an Ivy masters degree. I reply to them, it should be me not my degree or "pedigree" which determines if you like me or not.

 

I have seen women and men post in personal ad's with something similar to "Ivy educated seeking same." That just upsets me sometimes.

[hyakku]

Oh boy...

 

This is silly. My GF didn't choose me based on some ridiculous *survival instinct*... jeez, I wish people would quit subscribing to that garbage.

 

If there's any *instinct* I have it's to reject all of this social blathering and just live my life and protect what's mine. This isn't a contest for me and I will not be dragged into it. I don't care if I am *respected* by other people - men AND women. It's not important to me. What IS important is protecting what's mine and not allowing anyone to jeopardise it.

 

Let me ask you then. Do you think we humans are better than other animals? Subscribing to what garbage? If you mean science and common sense, then no thanks I think I'll stick to the science that has been proven.

 

We humans ARE animals, why do you think people who are at the bottom of the gutters don't succeed? When was the last time you saw a bum with no confidence get with a woman, forget about actually making something of himself. Protecting what is yours and not allowing someone to jeopardise is it is obviously showing that you are willing to fight and be prepared to fight if you are endangered, a trait of a mate who is ready to survive. If a lion goes, "Ahh forget it, I'll just get beat by an upcoming cub because I don't wanna fight today," he's gonna get his ass handed to him, and might even get killed. Its the same thing with less consequences (or more depending on how you look at it), our goal is to keep the race going, you don't want a ton of WEAK males running out there because when danger strikes, guess what will happen? They will all be wiped out, its necessary that both men and women have instincts to allow them to survive and pass on their genes, and therefore continue the human race, mating with a weak mate will screw your chances up further to pass on your genetics.

 

Again, you can have confidence without arrogance, arrogance is almost like the extremeity of confidence and being overly nice and usually the other polar side. Whenever people suggest nice guys grow some balls, they usually always just jump right over to the other side, "Well I don't wanna be an arrogant a**h***!!". No one asked you to be one. Being confident is not being an a**h***. Telling jokes is not being an a**h***. Not looking to please everyone else is not being an a**h***. Not standing for what you believe and not agreeing with everything a woman says is not being an a**h***. Its called being a MAN.

 

Alot of Nice guys feel inside that they are, "better" than the a**h***s out there. Its there defense mechanism, woman doesn't like them? "She just wants a**h***s out there, she'll get what's coming for her."

 

Or they buy her all these nice things and take her out to fancy places and try not to offend her try to please her all the time and bam, they are put in the friend zone and its back to the, "She wants only those jerks and a**h***s out there she wants to be treated badly." No she wants some damn fun.

[jerbear]

Or they buy her all these nice things and take her out to fancy places and try not to offend her try to please her all the time and bam, they are put in the friend zone and its back to the, "She wants only those jerks and a**h***s out there she wants to be treated badly." No she wants some damn fun.

 

ahmen, learn new things everyday. Woke up and fought 4 weeks ago. Surprised and floor her that I would actually fight (a losing one) battle. Granted I'm in the friend zone, put her "jerk & a**h***" on check and 2nd guessing now. to much to late but you know what better late than never. Live and learn. At least I wasn't a cub that got killed.

 

She was surprised that I pulled her safety blanket on her that rapidly.

[hyakku]

Finally, someone admits it. Hell I'm not afraid to admit I used to say stuff like that.

 

"She only wants a**h***s."

 

"She has a problem she doesn't wanna someone to treat her right."

 

"I buy and do all of this and I get nothing!? Fine she's just a money using bitch."

 

"She has all these problems with her boyfriend but she can't see that I'm right here ready to accept her. I give her GREAT advice, why doesn't she give me a chance?"

 

Etc, etc.

 

It's because I was more like a girlfriend then dateable (a mate) material.

[jerbear]

Finally, someone admits it. Hell I'm not afraid to admit I used to say stuff like that.

 

"She only wants a**h***s."

 

"She has a problem she doesn't wanna someone to treat her right."

 

"I buy and do all of this and I get nothing!? Fine she's just a money using bitch."

 

"She has all these problems with her boyfriend but she can't see that I'm right here ready to accept her. I give her GREAT advice, why doesn't she give me a chance?"

 

Etc, etc.

 

It's because I was more like a girlfriend then dateable (a mate) material.

 

I surprised and floored her, she was very surprised that I would give up the chase and friendship. Lose access to her network. I told her, I'm building my own w/o access to her's. Other business issues, I am using my own resources, own network and abilities.

 

She wanted time away from each other, I said fine. next day she asked for help, blew her off, 2nd day I helped because it was part of her livelihood. She was very appreciative. It is now 4 weeks of NC now, she is stressed, upset, lost a friend, & great loving potential husband; she has some (I mean very little) doubts about the new guy. Oh well...

 

About datable material, over the time I've managed to bypass, reduce, and even remove her barriers and hesitations with me. Now only one, age. Guess what, NC and balls in her court.

[amerikajin]

It goes something like this...

 

First, there is a difference between the ultra hot women and the ordinary middle of the road women on the attractive scale. Let's address the hotties first.

 

I think both women and men will agree that it is much easier for a beautiful woman to attract men than it is for an attractive man to attract women. Women just have to look good and show up. Now on the flip side of that coin, it is easier for men to get away with bad looks than it is for women - men just have to have a good personality. But let's get back on track.

 

A beautiful woman just has to show up. If she's in a bar, she will get approached, hit on, hear the cheesy lines. Now finding a guy that she can be attracted to, respect and grow to like is entirely a different matter. But nevertheless, she's in control here - and it doesn't take long before beautiful women realize this and start to get accustomed to wielding their power. And they can't help themselves...testing men almost becomes a game to them.

 

Men, on the other hand, have to have this thing called confidence. Let's just say that wearing confidence is a lot more difficult than wearing makeup and lipstick and a pair of nine west shoes. You either have it in you or you don't. And if you're trying to put on aires, you can only fake it for so long. Ain't like fakin' an orgasm.

 

So a beautiful girl almost always has the upper hand in a relationship at first - until she meets a guy who can exercise this thing called self-control. Now self-control is natural in some people, but it's also a learned behavior. You can control your urges to reveal your weaknesses, to share your emotions, to do a lot of things that would otherwise drive a gorgeous women away. Let me tell you...if there's any kind of remote attraction to you on her part, a little bit of self-control in and of itself will give you a fighting chance with a beautiful woman. That's no guarantee that it'll last a long time as she may see other things in you that don't add up, but she will at least respect you. She will wonder why you don't flip out and act like a little b!tch in her presence like 19 out of 20 guys she meets during the day. She could f*** those other 19, and probably half of those are attractive enough for her to consider it physically speaking. But she won't do it because she knows that she will always have another chance merely waking up and walking out of her door tomorrow. She takes them for granted. But that one guy who doesn't seem overwhelmed by her beauty is the one she will pay attention to. She has to. She has to know what's different about him. She has to know why he doesn't fumble his words in her presence. Or why he doesn't call all the time wanting to set up the next date. He must have something going on.

 

The so-called 'nice guy', however, is just another one out of the 19 guys she plays with. They may all have admirable traits, but they don't stand out as special to her. There's nothing about them that calls out 'Hey, you, over here...I've got something you should see.' If anything, even if there is attraction, if a guy is always coming on hard, she knows that he'll be here tomorrow...like the other guys who do exactly the same. She takes them for granted. But when you separate yourself from the pack, she is forced to take notice. And something else happens, too...the bombshell, who is so used to being in control of the tempo, is now no longer in control. It's the man who's in control, and control is a very masculine quality. Nice guys don't have that masculine quality of control that the hotties demand; the confident guys do.

 

Now, that's with regard to the very attractive women.

 

With regard to women who are less attractive, you have to play down the dating techniques a little. You do the same thing but not as much of it...you do it to a lesser degree. The higher you go on the attractiveness scale, the more you have to reassure the girl that you are not another one of those guys she'll take for granted. The lower you go on the scale, the more you have to reassure the girl that you don't take her for granted.

[jerbear]

By confidence and self control I can see and agree. A nice way to build confidence, take dancing lessons!

 

I have a very good girl friend and by accident discovered the concept of going with a wingman/wingwoman. Really changes the dynamics with beautiful women.

 

Even when they know she is a friend they are just thrown off. It helps that my friend was really dolled up. I bought her an expensive designer dress and wore the suit and be "dolled up" with hair cut and scents. long story short, I lost a bet. She and I got scoped out when walking into the lounge.

 

Best line, walk past them, your friend makes a comment. You say nah, I'm here with you (friend.) Really upsets them beautiful women.

 

The moral of the story, nice guys can still be nice and yet go out and have fun. Just do it creatively. Use the friend formation then try not to crash and burn; once is ok, just don't do it twice! and take dancing lessons. Swing & tango (or salsa) Some ballroom so you don't have two left feet.

[kanj]

I really liked a guy (several, actually) who tried to get me to chase him like you advise. so i dumped him (them).

 

i don't want to be the man. i want the man to be the man. if he can't handle the initiation part, i consider him to be weak, lazy, or not interested enough.

 

 

and most women are like me.

 

and why do you call yourself resentment? did some woman break your heart? because all of the guys who tried to get me to do the chasing had alot of resentment towards women.

 

Obviously you would want the man to do the initiation... because no one enjoys doing the initiation unless they're really full of confidence or don't care about being rejected by the person. Women who are aggressive (confidance, maturity) are attractive to men as well.

 

Yes, men would like to sit back and let the women hit on them instead too, but they don't usually have the luxury. Men are pressured into pursuing women because they'll be called losers if they can't get female attention.

 

Self-entiteled comments like yours are what make me have resentment towards women. It's so easy to be a woman in this day and age. Pampered and spoiled with everyone licking your boots.

[amerikajin]

kanj,

 

With an attitude like that, all I can say is, I hope you enjoy being single or in and out of bad relationships the rest of your life.

 

No, the reason you resent women is because you're loaded with insecurities and you've never been honest with yourself about them, and you've never challenged yourself enough to deal with them on your own. So don't be surprised if women don't dig you, 'cause the last thing a woman will dig is a guy who has hangups but is too proud to deal with them and too dishonest to acknowledge them.

[Mary3]

I'd rather be over confident and arrogant than under confident and submissive

~~~~~~~~

Alpha : do you want me slap you into Submission ?

[Outcast]

My point CALIGUY, is that the two go together and cannot be separated.

 

actually its ALL types of women who are attacted to power, not just "dumb groupies".

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ = arrogance. Highly unattractive. As cygny said, arrogant people are

 

incapable of considering my opinions and feelings alongside their own or of ever admitting they were wrong. it's boring and tedious and stupid.

 

Bush = arrogant

Clinton = confident

 

BIG difference. I don't agree that arrogance always stems from insecurity. Sometimes it's just stupidity to think that you are so shxt hot that nobody could possibly top you. There isn't thing one attractive about that.

[Mary3]

Someone had commented earlier about Oprah Winfrey.

 

I think the crux of her existance ( in Daytime TV ) is array of her guests ( from gang bangers to dead beat dads , serial killers , pedophiles , corrupt government and hidden agendas and her goal is bring out most truths that are kept from the common public.

 

One of her guests today was CNN Anchor Anderson Cooper. This bright insightful reporter was the one who was in New Orleans trudging through sewage and bodies and asking four ( 4 ) days into the Hurricane " Where is the help ? Where is Fema ? There is absolutely no-one here to help these people."

Then FEMA director comes on in the 4th day of hell and says " There's people in the Superdome ??. I did not know that . "

 

How could we as viewers know that 10-25,000 people were rotting in the superdome under stifling conditions and the director of Fema did not ?

 

( By the way hats off to her as a former reporter and being alot like Anderson in trying to get the real story for you the viewers to see )

 

But the real point is that I don't think Oprah is arrogant . I think she helps alot of people and gets pure joy in giving ( okay her sponsers donate alot ) But she does alot of good .

 

Yes she's worth billions and she can have alot of what we common folks only dream of...But she could have taken her wealth and abandoned ship long ago but you can always find her trying to reveal the truths and lies, the political spins , the post partum moms, bird flu pandemics, ect.

 

I watch very little TV but I always make time to see what she has going for the day.

 

That lady is confidant . She exudes it from every orifice and she is not afraid to say what she needs to say. Not arrogant . Not Agressive. But dog determined to get to the real truth of many stories.

[Outcast]

Find me a successful woman (NOT movie stars) that men don't consider 'arrogant'.

[Mary3]

Hilary Clinton " : Arrogant

Jaqueline Kennedy Onassis " : Confidant

Nancy Reagon " : Confidant

Lady Bird Johnson : " Braindead

[Woggle]

Find me a successful woman (NOT movie stars) that men don't consider 'arrogant'.

 

Sandra Day O'Conner. She was a great justice.

[cygny]

I actually find this "obsession" men currently have these techniques to "get" women pretty amusing.

 

What none of these 'player' manuals ever talk about is how to be a good partner, how to consider a woman's feelings without being a complete softie or an absolute jerk. How to take an initial attraction and make it into a meaningful relationship over time.

 

The focus is very egotistical for the male: female attention measured in terms of quantity of women and sex, and degree of hotness of women and sex. There is no depth, compatibility or longevity in the equation whatsoever.

 

It's incredibly narcissistic and shallow.

 

Just a hint to the guys--within the so-called 3-date framework you give me to start putting out, I have already determined whether you are someone i could actually enjoy being in a relationship with in terms of whether you even listen to what I say or have any genuine interest in me as a person.

 

The ones who use these techniques almost invariably get brushed off because I know there is nothing beyond them except a very self-absorbed male trying to see whether he can pull or score.

 

As for the biology argument, well, humans have rationality and developed emotions and psychologies--which in most cases exceed our base instincts. That's why we don't bonk the first guy we see with hair on his chest or go into heat like a cat. We are in another category that can't be compared directly with the amoeba or a rabbit.

[jerbear]

I actually find this "obsession" men currently have these techniques to "get" women pretty amusing.

 

I hate "obsession" it stinks...

 

What none of these 'player' manuals ever talk about is how to be a good partner, how to consider a woman's feelings without being a complete softie or an absolute jerk. How to take an initial attraction and make it into a meaningful relationship over time.

 

Very true, lots of manuals on this and that but never to get deeper.

 

The focus is very egotistical for the male: female attention measured in terms of quantity of women and sex, and degree of hotness of women and sex. There is no depth, compatibility or longevity in the equation whatsoever.

 

It's incredibly narcissistic and shallow.

 

I have to disagree, I've been in relationships that start slow and women who want to know more about me. Some view me as an acquired taste.

 

Just a hint to the guys--within the so-called 3-date framework you give me to start putting out, I have already determined whether you are someone i could actually enjoy being in a relationship with in terms of whether you even listen to what I say or have any genuine interest in me as a person.

 

A first date with an ex was me taking her to a barn for one of her projects. Nothing happened, I didn't expect anything in return, I didn't get a kiss a hug or anything. I just wanted to see her and see if there was chemistry a click or "she's cute when taking measurements" out of our normal safe zone. I was darn scared when she initiated and started to put out on the 3rd date finished, then kicked me out. Guess there is that saying, "f**k me and call me silly." I wasn't playing by any numbers or rules just enjoyed her company and see if anything develops. Sometimes even 30 dates won't tell you a thing. You don't even know if you like the person.

 

The last relationships I had, she is about 9 years older and I spent 5 years chasing her, dispelling or knocking each barrier down (stability, future, safe) Now the age issue came up. That barrier well I can't knock down. I took the time and interst to know her as person and woman. I don't know if 5 years was dedication or stupidity.

 

As for the biology argument, well, humans have rationality and developed emotions and psychologies--which in most cases exceed our base instincts. That's why we don't bonk the first guy we see with hair on his chest or go into heat like a cat. We are in another category that can't be compared directly with the amoeba or a rabbit.

 

I have to both agree and disagree. Yes humans have rationality and developed emotions and psychologies. However I disagree when under stress; under stress we digress. Rationality and any type of higher order intelligence goes down to thinking with the other head. Defensive or otherwise.

 

I do agree about bonking the first potential mate with hair, are penguins, their mating patterns are surprisingly similar to humans. The 1st male is usually never the mate, usually the 3rd and it might be a smaller weaker male.

 

Humans do go into heat but higher order functions try to prevent certain things. Not to mention laws, morality, social norms, etc... A woman would get more amourous during that time and can even be vindictive afterwards. It is not 100% her fault, yes blame hormones. In the heat of passion, humans would do it like rabbits. Forget condoms, forget where it goes, just put it in. 9 months later another human being is born.

 

What about women's intuition. Sometimes it just doesn't make sense how she got that idea or feeling. Being a logical, physical male, I trust my women friend's "woman's intuition."

 

Don't forget nesting and maternal instincts of women.

[cygny]

jerbear--

 

I'm just saying that women generally are not as focused on sex or taken in by alot of the BS a male thinks makes him successful with her. Not to say those things don't matter at all BUT a woman who has had a few relationships and who is not quite so naive will evaluate a new man based on their common interests and FUTURE potential of the relationship. Depending on how self-assured she is and how comfortable with her independence, she will open herself up to a larger or lesser degree (raise or lower her standards).

 

Yes a woman can give as good as she gets. Pursue a guy, screw his brains out, then dump his ass. Women can be players too.

[a4a]

 

Don't forget nesting and maternal instincts of women.

 

 

Some of us lack this..... we are more likely to eat our young.

 

a4a

[alphamale]

Some view me as an acquired taste. .

yes, not unlike sushi

[lindya]

Very true, lots of manuals on this and that but never to get deeper.....

 

Those manuals seem to be very much geared towards the concept that women always react instinctively or emotionally. They attempt to simplify us into malleable components...because that's what the guys buying those manuals want to hear. They want to believe there's a set, reliable formula for getting a woman into bed....and, additionally, obtaining the upper hand in the relationship. Just as people who buy the "get rich quick" books want to believe they work. A few kernels of truth in these books is all it seems to take for them to gain credibility.

 

Essentially, people seem to buy these dating books with the belief that they'll provide a crash course in the psychology of the opposite sex. It would surely make far more sense to read approved text books that explore the nature of human relationships and interactions in depth...and are written by people who are authorities on the subject. God knows why people would rather rely on the word of some fly by night dating guru who's out to make a quick buck. Perhaps because those books are lighter reading and easier to understand?

 

What about women's intuition. Sometimes it just doesn't make sense how she got that idea or feeling. Being a logical, physical male, I trust my women friend's "woman's intuition."

 

Being a woman, I don't always trust what seems to be an instinct. It can be difficult to differentiate between instincts and emotions (justifiable fear - instinct - versus irrational fear - emotion).I'd rather use my 5 senses and my brain in conjunction with instinct. Why rely on instinct alone, when you have all these other faculties that assist with the decision making process?

 

From what I've read on these boards, the manuals simplify women into a set of instincts and emotions that can be easily manipulated. In the same way, books like "The Rules" simplify men. Much as the tactics advocated by those books might be consistent with some basic psychological principles, it doesn't sound as if they pay any heed to the need for genuine warmth to develop between two people in a romantic relationship. I flicked through the Rules once - and it seemed very sterile and old fashioned. It was hard for me to imagine a duller person than the "Creature unlike any other" that it advocated women should become.

[alphamale]

Those manuals seem to be very much geared towards the concept that women always react instinctively or emotionally.

they do, relative to men...

 

 

They attempt to simplify us into malleable components...because that's what the guys buying those manuals want to hear. They want to believe there's a set, reliable formula for getting a woman into bed

physics textbooks simplify complex motion into simple equations and formulae, so what is your point?

 

A few kernels of truth in these books is all it seems to take for them to gain credibility.

....and a "few kernels" of truth in Cosmopolitan magazine also sells

 

Essentially, people seem to buy these dating books with the belief that they'll provide a crash course in the psychology of the opposite sex.

for people who "aren't in the know" these books may be a good place to start...what's wrong with self improvement?

 

 

God knows why people would rather rely on the word of some fly by night dating guru who's out to make a quick buck. Perhaps because those books are lighter reading and easier to understand?

human behaviour is hard to understand and illogical. people love psychology, and they want to get insight on the opposite sex...start up a conversation anywhere on the battle between the sexes and people will be very very interested...

 

 

From what I've read on these boards, the manuals simplify women into a set of instincts and emotions that can be easily manipulated. In the same way, books like "The Rules" simplify men.

if you can suggest a better way then go right ahead...

 

 

it doesn't sound as if they pay any heed to the need for genuine warmth to develop between two people in a romantic relationship.

one cannot develop "genuine warmth" with another if they cannot even get a date to begin with...

[lindya]

if you can suggest a better way then go right ahead...

 

I can. The initial interest is created by eye contact and the usual flirtatious body language. You move closer to eachother and eavesdrop on eachother's conversations until you hear something you can butt in on. I've had this done to me plenty of times, and I don't mind at all...

 

"Excuse me, but I couldn't help over-hearing you say..."

 

There you go. Conversation has started, and there's a definite focus to it rather than the usual tired pick up lines.

 

After that - for the first few dates it's strictly about fun. Beyond that, you're looking at a relationship possibly developing...in which case I think John Gray's books do a good job of exploring male/female relationships and common mistakes both parties make. The difference with his book is that it's written from a mature perspective and on the assumption that the people reading it want to create happy, healthy relationships rather than unhappy, dysfunctional power imbalances.

[alphamale]

I can. The initial interest is created by eye contact and the usual flirtatious body language.

well LINDYA, good loooking people know about this because they get it all the time. what about average looking or ugly people who get no eye contact? what about nerdy people? what about soically inept people? what about grossly obese people?