Why nice guys finish last

[hyakku]

Just joined after reading some....terrible things.

 

First off, you ever notice that guys do things that WORK with women but then fall out and be a nice guy? Its because the way society has it wired.

 

Good book to pick up on, Double Your Dating, David DeAngelo.

 

Anyway, nice guys usually finish last because they are NEEDY, CLINGY, and all around just wusses. They won't let the woman live her life, they suffocate her, stay under her, act overly nice (which is usually just manipulation) and are just plain BORING.

 

Nice Guys RUIN romance, thats all they do. ROMANCE is supposed to be used as a SPICE, not a FIVE course meal. You don't make candle lit dinners, and buy flowers, and send chocolate every day, or every week, because it becomes PREDICTABLE and boring. Anyway, he discusses a region in the brain called the Broca Region and how its always predicting whats about to happen and on the alert for the unpredictable. When something UNPREDICTABLE comes along, it alerts the rest of the brain.

 

So let's just think about this, if you are doing all this every day, its no longer Romantic, its PREDICTABLE. Romance is surprising her on some random day with something nice and then waiting a while and doing it again. A good way a guy explained it was if (anyone who knows about Dungeons and Dragons) you have a 30 sided die, just roll that, and in that number of days maybe do something romantic, stop then do it again.

 

Another problem with nice guys, are they genearlly act insecure, way to damn apologetic and afraid, they are always seeking approval. They also seem to have women on some pedastel above them and as such treat them as gods.

Here's a hint WOMAN ARE JUST AS HUMAN TOO. If anything women have a rougher job than guys. Women don't dress up only for guys (they do) but they dress up to compete with other women. They don't spend an hour in the bathroom getting ready just so they can scare off all the men when they go to the clubs, they do it to compete.

 

And here's the thing, most "nice" guys or "insecure" guys who get shot down and go, "Bitch" are wrong. SHE isn't a BITCH, its because of guys like that, that she has to act like one. If she accepted every guy that came by offering to buy her this and that and doing everything she wanted she'd live a TERRIBLE life.

 

A woman doesn't enter a relationship to be the man, YOU need to be the man. Alot of time women go for jerks because they have the desirable qualities in a man (but often come along with some terrible other qualities), but its alot better than having a needy insecure guy. Many of the guys "nice" guys call a**h***s aren't a**h***s at all, they are just confident and cool. When a guy is making fun of a woman having fun its called FLIRTING.

 

Example, I was talking to a woman and somehow we got into the category of judging and she said something like, "Eww you judge people now?" To which I responded, "Yea, I'm looking for looks and money. You just passed the first test now are you broke?".

 

Its not an a**h*** thing to say, its FUN. Another one:

 

Sometimes when women do something wrong or something I may not like I pretend to get all upset and say something like, "Wow you had a good thing going but now you ruined it. I was into you but forget it now you just killed it all, this relationships just over" (Obviously not when I have a girlfriend). To which they might go, "nooo" Or, "We weren't even going out." And then you can say, "Thats another reason we need a divorce". (almost right from that book but I like to change crap around a bit).

 

Its just fun.

 

And I'm sure most secure women on this board will agree, that when they meet a man like that that's not seeking approval, etc, they say to themselves "Oh this guy gets it. A challenge this is going to be FUN."

 

Again theres alot of stuff we can go into it. Point is, be secure, confident, and be indifferent, whatever happens, happens, don't dwell too much on being perfect, otherwise you will just screw up. Just assume you can do no wrong, and just have fun with it. Again thats a good book to pick up for alot of guys who just don't "get it".

 

Awkward first post but I think I'll be here to stay for a bit.

[cygny]

well hyakku

 

you have some good points, but your lines are pretty cheesy. they sound like something a used car salesman would say.

 

you need to get better at that. i wouldn't respond very well to the line about looks and money. its just irritating. i've heard way more pickup lines than i can even remember. most women have.

 

flirting and teasing is good but have a little class. you still sound like an a**hole to me, and believe me i run into all types. way too many a**holes out there.

 

why can't there be a balance? doesn't seem like it's THAT hard.

 

and no we don't say, oh lookie, a challenge, let me at 'im.

 

when i meet a man who has some purpose in life and is a gentleman, and knows how to tease and have fun in a light but friendly way, that guy gets my attention. It is so rare.

 

by the way, you're not david deangelo are you?

[Deirdre]

I really liked a guy (several, actually) who tried to get me to chase him like you advise. so i dumped him (them).

 

i don't want to be the man. i want the man to be the man. if he can't handle the initiation part, i consider him to be weak, lazy, or not interested enough.

 

 

and most women are like me.

 

and why do you call yourself resentment? did some woman break your heart? because all of the guys who tried to get me to do the chasing had alot of resentment towards women.

 

exactly, just how many women actually wanted to do the chasing? and playing such games can irritate more often than not, than attract.

[hyakku]

well hyakku

 

you have some good points, but your lines are pretty cheesy. they sound like something a used car salesman would say.

 

you need to get better at that. i wouldn't respond very well to the line about looks and money. its just irritating. i've heard way more pickup lines than i can even remember. most women have.

 

flirting and teasing is good but have a little class. you still sound like an a**hole to me, and believe me i run into all types. way too many a**holes out there.

 

why can't there be a balance? doesn't seem like it's THAT hard.

 

and no we don't say, oh lookie, a challenge, let me at 'im.

 

when i meet a man who has some purpose in life and is a gentleman, and knows how to tease and have fun in a light but friendly way, that guy gets my attention. It is so rare.

 

by the way, you're not david deangelo are you?

 

Course I'm not DD.

 

Second, none of those are pick up lines, pick up lines are used and out dated, a simple Hi will do.

 

I used those on people I was out with or women I had been flirting with.

 

There's always a balance of course.

 

And personally I have seen and had woman say, "No I don't like nice guys there always just boring." Challenges are fun, many women say that they like a fun challenge. Not Challenge as in climbing Mt. Everest difficult challenge, but a guy who isn't a afraid to speak his mind.

 

Of course being chivalrous is always great to do, as long as its done in the right way.

 

 

Heh, though now you put the thought in my mind of actually trying that as a pickup line just to see the reaction...damn you.

[Vincent Vega]

You can be a nice, confident guy and get a lot more chicks than a jackass.

[hyakku]

Exactly. Being an ass isn't what gets them girls, its their positive qualities that do.

 

Damn I wanna see pulp fiction now.

[riobikini]

hyakku,

 

Visit here -and often- your views add an interesting touch to the forum boards.

 

-Rio

[mrB2006]

resentment,

 

Ok,

I must admit that I have been in the 'nice guy' situation before. But I must tell you to get yourself out of that mindset. It will not get you anywhere. Believe me (read my posts over the last six months, they are not pretty).

 

Yes,

Some girls dig creeps. But you must brush yourself off and get back into the game. (I am the master of cliches).

 

I have evaluated my situation and I have found areas that need improvement. I am not doing this for others. I am doing it for myself.

 

What I have been doing:

1) I have stopped thinking negatively. What I mean is that I am trying to look at life in a more postive light. If someone treats me like crap, I dont treat them like crap back. I just brush the insult aside and move on.

 

2) I have stopped with all of this 'nice guy' bologna. It isnt worth the effort to whine about this. Life is too short to be the 'nice guy'. Instead be a 'good guy'... I have started to be the 'good guy' and I can tell a diffence in my attitude towards people and life. What is a good guy: someone who accepts who he is inside. He is someone who is not there to impress others, because he is already secure enough within his own skin. He doesnt need a chick to make him secure. Now this will take time. I am still in the 'baby steps' of this. But, honestly, I have seen a difference. My family and friends have made comments about how much they have seen a change for the better.

 

3) I have accepted the fact that I can not please everyone. If I am going to change, I am going to do it for myself and for my own self-worth.

For instance, I have started to gain a spiritual side. I have always derided spirituality, but I have started to change. Spirituality and religion have helped me accept the fact that life is journey and you must sit back and enjoy the ride (for the most part). Again bad cliche, but oh well.

 

Now, it doesnt have to be religion. It has helped for me, but others are different. I don't care what people say, there is always room for improvement in one's life. So dig deep and find that area. Work on it. And try your best to stay postiive throughout.

 

4) Avoid putting a woman on a pedestal. I did that for a while and it got me nowhere. Well, it did get me somewhere, and that would be the so called 'friendzone'. (However, in my situation, it seems more like a 'friendzone' purgatory. Who knows? )

 

5) And finally,

Don't spazz. Don't life get you down. If you take a little bit of my advice, it will help. Remember that many guys like us have been shot down by women. And many times the rejections hurt. But That will ALWAYS be a fact of life.

 

You will find someone special. But it will take effort on your part.

 

Good luck

 

MrB

[Curmudgeon]

If a woman wants a jerk or a rough or bad guy then she's not likely someone I'd want to get involved with to begin with.

 

I was raised to be an old school gentleman and that's who and what I'm comfortable being. Female companionship has never been a problem and a true lady will appreciate the attentiveness and courtesies. Thankfully, that's also the type of woman I'm attracted to, one who expects and appreciates gentlemanly behavior and accepts it graciously.

 

Perhaps that makes me a dinosaur but if so, we're not all extinct yet.

[mrB2006]

Also,

 

I can see where many on this thread see you in a negative light. I don't know your situation.

 

But with my situtation I really goofed up. I guess I was the ''asexual' nice guy'. That makes for a weird person. LOL...But I am working on that area as well.

 

What I want you to do resentment is to read the ladies remarks very carefully. Do you see their resentment towards your negative attitude? Yes, it is painful, but you must face it.

 

Now, the problem could be with a few of the women you meet. But let me tell that not all women go after dumbed-down biker types or goof balls in wifebeaters. You must change your whole way of thinking.

 

I am saying this part from experience in posting: Your post came across as desperate and rather sad. And like I said I have been in your shoes before.

 

Don't take offense to the negative comments here. I had to endure them. And I am glad I did. I 'saw the light' so to speak. I hope you 'see the light' as well.

 

Again good luck,

 

Life doesnt suck that much.

 

MrB

[mrB2006]

Curmudgeon,

Your not a dinosaur. I am 27 and now expect the same as well.

 

 

thanks

 

mrB

[hyakku]

You can still be a gentleman and be an attractive man.

 

A gentleman does not shower a woman with gifts 24/7, call her and give her no space to her own, cling to her like a bad fungus, and pussyfoot around what he truly wants to say. This is a Wuss.

 

A true gentleman makes sure he is having a good time as well as the lady, gives her her own space, says what he wants to say in a charming (and often funny way), and all around has FUN in a relationship. We aren't saying don't be a good guy, we are saying don't try to bribe, buy, bore, or any other boring or dishonest way, yourself into a woman's heart. Guys who are playfully honest, tease, have fun, and employ many of these techniques are giving many women exactly what they want, and both sides benefit.

[mrB2006]

hyakku,

 

I agree with your recent post. However, sometimes being 'playful' doesn't work. Well, first I guess you have to decide what kind of definition of 'playful' do you want to use. I bet it is 'physically' playful, right.

 

I alluded to my 'asexualness' in an earlier post. It was true in my case. I would be 'playful' in an intellectual and fun way. My friend even told me that she found my intellectual side attractive. But I soon realized that there was more to a relationship that just an honest, fun, and intellectual side. There is the physical side. And I failed miserably on that. Read my pathetic posts, and you'll see a long history of stupidity scrawled across your computer screen....OK, I digress....

 

As for resentment,

I think that he should find something about himself to improve on. Yes, it is a babystep, but you never know.

 

And by his screenname, I feel that there are deeper 'women' issues than just the whole 'nice guy' thing.

 

Resentment,

Please don't take offense. Think of this exchange as two doctors meeting before a surgery..."Do you concur, Dr. Hyakku?"

[CaliGuy]

"nice" guys finish last because they are doormats. (needy)

 

"Good" guys finish first. (balanced)

 

"Jerks" may get the women, but they never keep them. (too into themselves)

[mrB2006]

CaliGuy,

Thanks for your post,

For a post so short, it speaks volumes.

 

(I am a reformed (almost reformed) 'nice guy'. And you are right 'good guys' always finish first.)

 

Again , thanks

 

MrB

[Curmudgeon]

You can still be a gentleman and be an attractive man.

 

A gentleman does not shower a woman with gifts 24/7, call her and give her no space to her own, cling to her like a bad fungus, and pussyfoot around what he truly wants to say. This is a Wuss.

 

A true gentleman makes sure he is having a good time as well as the lady, gives her her own space, says what he wants to say in a charming (and often funny way), and all around has FUN in a relationship.

--------------------------------------------------

I agree with all of this. I can be a gentleman, a pleasant companion, a good conversationalist, be considerate and still have and provide a lot of fun.

 

Therefore, I don't believe that nice guys finish last which was the original premise.

[hyakku]

hyakku,

 

I agree with your recent post. However, sometimes being 'playful' doesn't work. Well, first I guess you have to decide what kind of definition of 'playful' do you want to use. I bet it is 'physically' playful, right.

 

I alluded to my 'asexualness' in an earlier post. It was true in my case. I would be 'playful' in an intellectual and fun way. My friend even told me that she found my intellectual side attractive. But I soon realized that there was more to a relationship that just an honest, fun, and intellectual side. There is the physical side. And I failed miserably on that. Read my pathetic posts, and you'll see a long history of stupidity scrawled across your computer screen....OK, I digress....

 

As for resentment,

I think that he should find something about himself to improve on. Yes, it is a babystep, but you never know.

 

And by his screenname, I feel that there are deeper 'women' issues than just the whole 'nice guy' thing.

 

Resentment,

Please don't take offense. Think of this exchange as two doctors meeting before a surgery..."Do you concur, Dr. Hyakku?"

 

I haven't been ont he boards long (just started reading and signed up today) but I'll certainly take a look at it.

 

Of course the intellectual and witty humor is the best part about it. Having fun picking at each other, and just busting each others balls, etc, this is all part of flirting.

 

Of course you always have to be ready to move on to the next level, you can't just stick it at, "Well alright had fun on the 8th date, lets hug and leave it at that."

 

Being physical of course is a huge role, you have to advance at the right time, from the very first touch of contact to the first kiss to the first time in bed, its all important. And you don't have to have sex for it to be fun, just showing that you always have to be ready to escalate.

 

I agree wholeheartedly, resentment, you gotta gather that confidence that the "a**h***s" have but not treat women terribly. Good guys are a good way to put it, fliratitous, funny yet arrogant at times (mixing them together is charming and funny to tease women with), chivalrous, and confident. These are what you want.

[mrB2006]

Hyakku,

Yeah,

My problem was that I was too much of a chicken-s**t to move to the next level. I so much wanted to, but I didn't know quite how. (I never really had a gf in my life before. I was a newbie, and I wish that I had the guts to change things.) But that is in the past. I learned my lesson. And I learned it well.

 

I am trying to change for the best. It can't be done overnight. But I am trying to do it.

 

Thanks

MrB

[hyakku]

Cool man, definetly, I mean its strange but if you really want to change well (I know I sound like a broken record) but Double Your Dating, David Deangelo. The title really is just a gimmick, its alot more deep than some canned pick up lines and some phrasses and, "Bam you've got yourself a new girlfriend congratulations".

 

Edit: Actually sign up for his newsletters first and read the old ones just to see a few things and snippets.

[Outcast]

MrB - Awesome! Good for you for working on your issues You already see how you'll be a much, much happier man simply by changing your own attitude

[mrB2006]

Hyakku,

Yes, I agree that it is strange. But this past year was an awakening. I had spent most of my high school and college years alone. I had been on a few dates. But they never amounted to much. I had just figured that, like resentment, that women didn't like 'nice guys'. Boy, was I wrong.

 

It feels like I have come out of my loner/'nice guy' shell. Life isnt' that bad.

I originally thought that women didn't like me because I was the sterotype nerd. But, my friend is proof that I have what it takes. What I needed to do was to come to the realization that I had a misguided view of women.

 

I feel that resentment needs to come to this realization as well.

 

Since my friend has left, I have gone on a few dates. I feel that things are starting to change for the better for me.

 

The reason why I feel for resentment, is that I have been in the same postion.

 

I had no girlfriend. I felt alone. I had to come to my senses. "Snap out of it stupid....Women don't hate you, they just don't like your attitude".

 

So, I have been trying to do just that.

 

And yes, everytime I went on a 'date' with my "friend" , my family, friends, and coworkers are like "Did you make a move yet?". And I had to hold my head down in shame and say "NO". Well after a few months I became too paralyzed with fear. "What if she rejects me" kept going through my head. I wish I had the balls to make that move.

 

But like I have said before, that is water under the bridge.

 

Life is looking up for me now.

 

And I am glad I found LS. Many of the people here have great advice. As for me, I found this website when it was too late. Oh well, you live and you learn.

 

Thanks

MrB

[mrB2006]

Thanks Outcast,

It has taken a lot of soul searching for me to reach this point. And I really do feel better about myself.

 

Several things have happened since I last posted.

My friend came by my house on Jan 2 to give me a belated Christmas gift. I told her that I probably wouldnt see her for a couple of years. She told me not to say that. She went on to say that she will write to me while I am overseas for two years.

 

Yes, I still have feelings for this girl. And it is obvious that she has some feelings for me.

 

BUT, life goes on. While I am overseas, I may meet the love of my life, you never know.

 

I do know that I needed a jolt. And I am glad that I have started to change.

 

Yes, I do sometimes get down about my 'friend'. And I know that she will probably find someone else. But since I do love her that is ok. I will let God decide if we are meant to be together. It is out of my hands now. I realize that that sounds very naive. But that is how I feel.

 

What I must do now is start to get out into the 'real world'. I still want to meet other ladies. And I have my whole life ahead of me.

 

Thanks again

MrB

[hyakku]

I remember that many psychologists are saying that too many men are being raised by their mothers and its becoming a problem. Mothers raise good HUSBANDS, but most women don't go out at the mall going, "I wonder how many potential husbands are going to approach me today?"

 

Too many mothers raising their sons, and the sons are becoming too weak and fearful of women. Tis a sad thing.

[mrB2006]

Hyakku,

I completely agree with you on that point.

 

mrB

[Outcast]

I remember that many psychologists are saying that too many men are being raised by their mothers and its becoming a problem. Mothers raise good HUSBANDS, but most women don't go out at the mall going, "I wonder how many potential husbands are going to approach me today?"

 

Too many mothers raising their sons, and the sons are becoming too weak and fearful of women. Tis a sad thing.

 

This is totally bogus. Please don't listen to women-haters any more than you listen to man-haters. That, too, will give you a seriously warped attitude.