Why nice guys finish last

[jerbear]

The other thing is, most guys don't know I am there. Most people don't understand that there are friends and people there that keep their eyes on each others interests.

 

Since I came in with them (the girls), I can actually interrupt and ask HER for permission to a dance. She would grant my request since I know her. I would get close and tell her what is going on and let her make the decision.

 

Yes I know what I am doing. It is her decision not mine but I can intervene and say something.

 

A few years earlier, I would not have had the confidence to do this. Just requires a reason, a goal, and determination.

[hyakku]

Take this as a cliche, stereotype, arrogant nice guy, change of pace, etc..

 

In regards to *dog eat dog* mentaility, it is a matter of objectives. The rules have changed and the other "dog" doesn't know. Both guys have competing objectives, my objective she goes back to her place w/o another guy.

 

Not everyone goes to a club or bar to pick up people. Nice guys do go there for other reasons. Watch, drink, or enjoy the music.

 

Objectives:

 

Girls: dance, have fun, drink. Not go home with a guy from the place. (Already predetermined and agreed upon, they can get his number and call him later that week but not that night)

 

Mine: drink, watch, enjoy the music, complete the girls objectives. Not go home with a girl from the place.

 

Chat guy: bed, friendly, arrogant, confident, whatever. Objective inconsequential. (I don't care & he is not going home with any one of them; even if the girls are drunk & uninhibited)

 

I'm being the nice guy, friend and "one of the girls." My friends are there to have fun, dance, and drink. She can feel safer, make friends strike up conversations; but not go home with the guy or take him home. At a bar, many guys (with alcohol buzz) may believe that she wants to get picked up, wants to have sex, and is playing hard to get. Arrogant or overly confident guy chats her up, dances, then crosses the line, she signals or struggles, boom intervention.

 

Did this nice guy finish last, nope dont think so; I completed my objectives for the night.

 

Do you have a girlfriend?

 

Anyway, I'm sorry if a guy tries to take her home and she WANTS it, do you stop her as well? What if the guy is just regular confident? How the hell do you know her "signal"? Does she like jump up and down or something? What the hell is wrong with these women, forget you. They are just using you as a tool, and you are happily going along with it. Are you brainwashed to think that it is your duty to protect all your female friends? Its not even being gentlemen - like, sure if you see some guy pushing up on her you can intervene, but to go solely into a club just to be her professional body guard without pay, without anything else just screams wuss. That's really sad man, I'm sorry.

[jerbear]

Do you have a girlfriend?

[/Quote]

At that time no, plus she already had kids. the others in our group, they also had kids. The single ones in the group were not for me. I'm not that orientation.

 

Anyway, I'm sorry if a guy tries to take her home and she WANTS it, do you stop her as well? What if the guy is just regular confident? How the hell do you know her "signal"? Does she like jump up and down or something? What the hell is wrong with these women, forget you. They are just using you as a tool, and you are happily going along with it. Are you brainwashed to think that it is your duty to protect all your female friends? Its not even being gentlemen - like, sure if you see some guy pushing up on her you can intervene, but to go solely into a club just to be her professional body guard without pay, without anything else just screams wuss. That's really sad man, I'm sorry.

 

Also at my post #281. If you do not read the WHOLE thread, do not criticize.

 

Please reread the portion within the parenthesis BEFORE doing any criticism, which can be found also be found on this page.

 

Girls: dance, have fun, drink. Not go home with a guy from the place. (Already predetermined and agreed upon, they can get his number and call him later that week but not that night)[/Quote]

 

If you think it is a game and playing by your rules, well... rules of the night was already predetermined. It was already changed before you even met them. How do you play a game when you don't know the rules?

 

I didn't goto bars to pick up chicks. Once in awhile girls just don't want to get picked up or fall for a one night stand. Or is it that you don't have female confidantes? good female friends whose husbands trust me, understand the gals would divorce them because of a concept and idea? guess not.

 

So I have a question for brainwashing, are you brainwashed to say must be regular confident, "pick up chicky", take her home, assume you am gift to women, guys can't have female friends, or a combination or variation listed?

 

These women are my friends, not my girlfriends, not my "one of the boys" or "one of the girls" They are not on my football or soccer team. They are not my beer buddies. One just can't have enough of those good friends. You defend your friends, back them up, and I do whatever is needed for my good friends. I can count on them for many things. Money in this case is not everything. Getting compensated is not my goal or objective.

 

If they want to go home with you, WELL one of them will call you tomorrow after they are sober. My objective for that night is to people watch, drink, and keep them out of trouble. You can bypass me by calling her tomorrow. Tomorrow is not my problem.

 

If both parties are drunk it is legally rape or a drug slipped in; that is what I'm there to prevent.

 

Is it because you can't have that girl, can't take her home, know the rules changed, hidden agenda spoiled, wasted your money on GHB, sore loser, or something else?

 

If you two like each other, you two can wait till tomorrow after both of you are sober.

 

Why are you sorry? It is your opinion or do you not have faith in your own opinions.

[hyakku]

If you think it is a game and playing by your rules, well... rules of the night was already predetermined. It was already changed before you even met them. How do you play a game when you don't know the rules?

 

I didn't goto bars to pick up chicks. Once in awhile girls just don't want to get picked up or fall for a one night stand. Or is it that you don't have female confidantes? good female friends whose husbands trust me, understand the gals would divorce them because of a concept and idea? guess not.

 

So I have a question for brainwashing, are you brainwashed to say must be regular confident, "pick up chicky", take her home, assume you am gift to women, guys can't have female friends, or a combination or variation listed?

 

These women are my friends, not my girlfriends, not my "one of the boys" or "one of the girls" They are not on my football or soccer team. They are not my beer buddies. One just can't have enough of those good friends. You defend your friends, back them up, and I do whatever is needed for my good friends. I can count on them for many things. Money in this case is not everything. Getting compensated is not my goal or objective.

 

If they want to go home with you, WELL one of them will call you tomorrow after they are sober. My objective for that night is to people watch, drink, and keep them out of trouble. You can bypass me by calling her tomorrow. Tomorrow is not my problem.

 

If both parties are drunk it is legally rape or a drug slipped in; that is what I'm there to prevent.

 

Is it because you can't have that girl, can't take her home, know the rules changed, hidden agenda spoiled, wasted your money on GHB, sore loser, or something else?

 

If you two like each other, you two can wait till tomorrow after both of you are sober.

 

Why are you sorry? It is your opinion or do you not have faith in your own opinions.

 

What the hell? How ridiculous does that sound?

 

"You can get his number but you can't go home with him." If she's not drunk she knows what decisions she's making, she's a big girl. I don't worry about playing others games, I live in my reality, people are guests in it. If you are playing games you get dropped, plain and simple.

 

Yea I have female friends, and I don't go around saying, "Alright so I'll go to the club to sit there and watch over you like I'm your chaperone. I'm not quite getting what you are talking about them divorcing for. If their husbands would divorce them for leaving with other guys and they are that worried, then they NEED to be divorced. One for not trusting their partner. Two for being THAT damn insecure. And three because he obviously thinks that she will get drunk and not control herself. Thats not even a relationship, thats just sad.

 

Brainwashed? Brainwashed to be confident? I will gladly say that I am brainwashed to be confident and comfortable with myself, why in the world would I EVER deny such a great thing? "Pick up chicky"? Why would I go around thinking, "Pick up Chicky" its not that hard to talk to women. Guys can have female friends its important for them.

 

Sounds like you are the parent not their friend.

[jerbear]

What the hell? How ridiculous does that sound?

 

Guess we have our differences in opinions and different circles of friends. Your are intitled to your difference of opinions.

 

You live by your rules, I live by mine. I keep my promises. I would ask them, you sure, rethink tomorrow; they understand. They'll call you tomorrow. Are you so sure of that they WILL go home with you? That sure? If our paths cross, oh well... If you try to drop me, in this situation; don't worry about me, worry about her. Before you make a bad move, she is well connected. Like I said worry about her. So what if I interrupted your version of a mating dance? If she gave a predetermined signal or you make her struggle. I will intervene that Her kids called, what are you going to do, drop me? Probably not. If you do, welcome to the deck (if you hit), she's good.

 

If I cut in and ask her, she agrees to the dance, looks like she wanted to dance with me, a nice guy. What will you do? drop me? Without me lifting a finger you already used force. You going home with her? Nope. You going home in a stretcher and singing soprano because of her, yes. Do not assume and do not be so sure of yourself. You can be regular confident (won't cause a tussle) but your case, crosses over to oversexed, arrogant, male.

 

This nice guy just became a bad guy.

 

This thread has cross posted and changed. My conversations with you on this matter will end.

[witabix]

JerBear, that is about the strangest thing I have ever heard.

 

I would watch over my daughter in such a fashion, but if she requested that I behave like that I would ask her what on earth she is thinking of?

 

I have a lot of female friends and they have been hit on by drunks etc. I would never dream of interfering. They can look after themselves.

 

Something pretty bad would have to happening for me to step in. If they wanted to go home with someone what has it to do with me?

 

I fail to see why anyone would behave like this. My married female friends are NEVER in my company without their husbands. They are the responsibility of their husband, not mine,

 

Strangely conversely I would be more likely to come to the aid of a male friend who had been chatting to a woman and he suddenly gets accosted by a guy who appears to have nothing to do with the woman.

 

Some guys have male friends who look out for them too.

 

You place yourself in a dangerous position, well where I come from it would be very dangerous behaviour anyway.

 

Your friends would do you a favour not to require your vigilance. They are using you, albeit with your consent. I hope you never regret this.

[cygny]

i think there is a place for gallantry and chaperoning such as jerbear describes, as long as that's what the woman wants. it's an incredible, aggressive meat market these days, and i won't even go to clubs or bars without a date or someone like jerbear.

[witabix]

i think there is a place for gallantry and chaperoning such as jerbear describes, as long as that's what the woman wants. it's an incredible, aggressive meat market these days, and i won't even go to clubs or bars without a date or someone like jerbear.

 

I agree Cygny, but you are saying that you go WITH the guy, as in arrive together and stay together and leave together, are you?

 

Would you say to a guy "Stand in the corner, if I tap my head with a carrot three times while a guy is chatting to me that means come and interrupt us"

 

That would freak me out a little, either being asked to do such a thing or being the chatter and suddenly having another guy come over with a phone, or whatever, and saying "Your kids just called", I'd be nonplussed to say the least. I would be wondering who this other guy is.

 

If was making an advance to a woman and she said she was married I would back off immediately.

 

Sure there are a lot of @sswipes out there but surely not so many that a group of women need a bodyguard/guardian angel, no?

 

I see many pairs of women having a good time, they don't have chaperones. As it stands where I live if a girl was getting a really rough time off of a guy men would step in. Total strangers, I have seen it happen. Never done it myself, but I have seen it happen.

 

Chivalry is not dead, its just a little sick these days.

[cygny]

hey it gets pretty wierd out there. trust me.

 

i've done exactly the same thing with girlfriends--we go already with a plan in place to rescue each other. all the better if it's a guy.

[witabix]

You talking of the USA?

 

I thought the Americans where generally very polite people.

 

All the ones I've met were pretty cool.

 

But I guess you are right, it gets wierder all the tme.

[cygny]

everywhere. us, uk, europe.

[DWJK]

I only read a few pages, but I'll just say a few words

 

People take certain material (David D and C&F for example) and just MISUSE it. They look at that as the pill to fix their lack of women and layer it on non-stop.

 

They think that being "alpha" is being an overbearing arrogant boy who needs to overcompensate for something.

 

 

In my opinion, women feel attraction for men who exibit different attributes... and the reason why they respond to these could be traced back millions of years; but frankly I really dont care.

 

Some of these attributes that come to mind...

- Doesn't require anyones approval

- Has a goal, a purpose, a path, a REASON for being

- Has no problem admitting that he ****ed up, or that someones better than him

- He's unselfconcious; couldn't care less of what other thought

- Judges people on CHARACTER.. not looks/money/whatever (This is a big one.. 99% of what people on this thread have described as a "nice guy" will put every woman they meet on a little pedestal)

- Doesnt let petty bull**** emotionally destablize him

- Never nervous, anxious, or insecure (Which comes across in his body language/demeanor/eye-contact)

- Doesn't need anything external or material

 

And on the subject of TEASING.. like I said above, most guys looking into this stuff will learn the tool, and blow it out of proportion until it has a negative effect on the people they're around. Alot of the female posters on here nailed it perfectly... light/friendly teasing GOOD; overbearing/arrogant BAD.

[DWJK]

Oh almost forgot.. a good example of an alpha-male would be Rhett Butler in Gone With The Wind.

 

The guy is always straightfoward with Scarlet, and has no problem telling her when she's out of line. As a matter of fact, he's brutally honest with EVERYONE (including himself)

 

There's his body language too; always powerful and confident

 

I could list more, but Id rather sleep right now.

[jerbear]

You talking of the USA?

 

I thought the Americans where generally very polite people.

 

All the ones I've met were pretty cool.

 

But I guess you are right, it gets wierder all the tme.

 

Yes, very weird in the USA. You go into any city, wonder what happened, yet you didn't leave the country. The ones you see that leave the country as tourist for more than 1 week are not the typical ones you meet when you visit the USA.

 

USA has everything in between from prudish to anything goes. USA and Ireland has different mentalities. I would let me kids (son and daughter) out and do their thing in Ireland but not in the US. From what I have experienced, Europeans in general are more responsible for their actions.

 

i.e. won't need to sue a restaurant because the coffee was to hot.

[jerbear]

JerBear, that is about the strangest thing I have ever heard.

 

I would watch over my daughter in such a fashion, but if she requested that I behave like that I would ask her what on earth she is thinking of?

 

I have a lot of female friends and they have been hit on by drunks etc. I would never dream of interfering. They can look after themselves.

 

Something pretty bad would have to happening for me to step in. If they wanted to go home with someone what has it to do with me?

 

I fail to see why anyone would behave like this. My married female friends are NEVER in my company without their husbands. They are the responsibility of their husband, not mine,

 

Strangely conversely I would be more likely to come to the aid of a male friend who had been chatting to a woman and he suddenly gets accosted by a guy who appears to have nothing to do with the woman.

 

Some guys have male friends who look out for them too.

 

You place yourself in a dangerous position, well where I come from it would be very dangerous behaviour anyway.

 

Your friends would do you a favour not to require your vigilance. They are using you, albeit with your consent. I hope you never regret this.

 

I understand it is dangerous behavior when guys don't get the girl. I know that. Their masculinity gets challenged. I would be upset, if a guy came up to my gf/date and started to chat her up.

 

I helped introduce some of my best friends to each other. Their husbands/bf know who I am and strangely enough lets me go out with them. I back off from those with bf & husbands. Some people would turn on the heat and say why are you here? automatically you know what will happen. Her bouncer friend, her friend out of the blue, and our tall friend behind him plus others; all intervene. I knew the risks and enjoyed the music. If you saw the bouncer moving in, not many guys would intervene. We had other people in the club clustered around her. I was the odd ball in the corner getting the top level view.

 

Yes, she would actually tell me to back off or tell the other guys that it is ok. you coming to the aid would know wait I'm doing something good for her and not letting his hormones and inhibitions get the best of him. Give her the number and she'll call tomorrow. He wouldn't know I'm there if he was a real genuine confident guy. If he really likes her, he'll give her contact information and she'll make the decision tomorrow. he would not want to screw it up. If confident guy goes to oversexed, arrogant, male. She'll give a predetermined signal, even it is tapping a carrot on her head 3 times. Which was not the case since I ate the carrot. Then I'll step in along with the people, including her boucer friend.

 

In a crowd, you know not everyone is watching out for you, it is nice to know that someone is watching in the corner.

 

They would not go hang out with me as a pair. I would not either. As a group well, we all go out to have fun. I am not there to pick up, I am there to enjoy the music, get a buzz and I got their backs. Once in awhile one of them is the designated wall flower and they got my back. Usually one of the guys.

 

witabix: I actually enjoy your insights and opinions; even if we don't agree.

cygny: I enjoy your insights and opinions, gives me an ephihany. As in that was what I did wrong in xyz relationship. Live and learn.

[hyakku]

I understand it is dangerous behavior when guys don't get the girl. I know that. Their masculinity gets challenged. I would be upset, if a guy came up to my gf/date and started to chat her up.

 

I helped introduce some of my best friends to each other. Their husbands/bf know who I am and strangely enough lets me go out with them. I back off from those with bf & husbands. Some people would turn on the heat and say why are you here? automatically you know what will happen. Her bouncer friend, her friend out of the blue, and our tall friend behind him plus others; all intervene. I knew the risks and enjoyed the music. If you saw the bouncer moving in, not many guys would intervene. We had other people in the club clustered around her. I was the odd ball in the corner getting the top level view.

 

Yes, she would actually tell me to back off or tell the other guys that it is ok. you coming to the aid would know wait I'm doing something good for her and not letting his hormones and inhibitions get the best of him. Give her the number and she'll call tomorrow. He wouldn't know I'm there if he was a real genuine confident guy. If he really likes her, he'll give her contact information and she'll make the decision tomorrow. he would not want to screw it up. If confident guy goes to oversexed, arrogant, male. She'll give a predetermined signal, even it is tapping a carrot on her head 3 times. Which was not the case since I ate the carrot. Then I'll step in along with the people, including her boucer friend.

 

In a crowd, you know not everyone is watching out for you, it is nice to know that someone is watching in the corner.

 

They would not go hang out with me as a pair. I would not either. As a group well, we all go out to have fun. I am not there to pick up, I am there to enjoy the music, get a buzz and I got their backs. Once in awhile one of them is the designated wall flower and they got my back. Usually one of the guys.

 

witabix: I actually enjoy your insights and opinions; even if we don't agree.

cygny: I enjoy your insights and opinions, gives me an ephihany. As in that was what I did wrong in xyz relationship. Live and learn.

 

 

What I'm hearing is this woman is like some godess and she has men, bouncers, and everyone else protecting her from men with "raging hormones". So even if neither were drunk and wanted to leave the club she couldn't because you all would get in the way. Not only that, but you say if he "really" likes her he'll call tommorow. What? He doesn't even KNOW her, how can he "really like" her. This is the plight of too many guys they think they like a woman they just met. If I got a girls number than 8 other guys said, "She has to go now," I doubt I'd call her just because that's way too damn weird and sheltered. Thats worse than the 14 year old girls whose curfew is at 8:30 PM, let her be a big girl.

 

And then you say YOU give HER YOUR number and she'll call tommorow. No. That's not how things work usually. I've had it happen to me, but a woman I'm actually interested in I am NOT going to go, "Oh yea your friend in the corner said I can't have your number so here take mine, I hope you call me tommorow." That sounds so pathetic.

 

What it really sounds like is you just follow some married/unmarried women around and help out there insecure husbands by "scaring" off other guys and not allowing them to make their own decisions. If they want to cheat on their husbands, so be it. Its a TWO person relationship, not The woman, her husband, and you.

[alphamale]

What I'm hearing is this woman is like some godess and she has men, bouncers, and everyone else protecting her from men with "raging hormones". So even if neither were drunk and wanted to leave the club she couldn't because you all would get in the way. Not only that, but you say if he "really" likes her he'll call tommorow. What? He doesn't even KNOW her, how can he "really like" her. This is the plight of too many guys they think they like a woman they just met. If I got a girls number than 8 other guys said, "She has to go now," I doubt I'd call her just because that's way too damn weird and sheltered. Thats worse than the 14 year old girls whose curfew is at 8:30 PM, let her be a big girl.

 

And then you say YOU give HER YOUR number and she'll call tommorow. No. That's not how things work usually. I've had it happen to me, but a woman I'm actually interested in I am NOT going to go, "Oh yea your friend in the corner said I can't have your number so here take mine, I hope you call me tommorow." That sounds so pathetic.

 

What it really sounds like is you just follow some married/unmarried women around and help out there insecure husbands by "scaring" off other guys and not allowing them to make their own decisions. If they want to cheat on their husbands, so be it. Its a TWO person relationship, not The woman, her husband, and you.

HYAKKU...don't listen to this JERBEAR person, he has no idea what's going on.

[hyakku]

I know but it still seems just strange that he really thinks what he is doing is right....

[witabix]

I know but it still seems just strange that he really thinks what he is doing is right....

 

Even though I am dumbfounded by Jerbear's behaviour, he doesn't seem to be doing anything that is wrong per se.

 

Perhaps his culture is radically different from mine.

 

An Irish guy behaving like this with Irish women in Ireland would either be told by the women to go away and leave them alone or end up seriously injured by a guy or group of guys talking to them.

 

Maybe he is in a shadowy gang or something. It seems there is no fear of a fifteen strong group of football players talking to these women.

 

He talks of 'tall guys' and 'bouncer friends'. He even talks of these women attacking the men who talk to them! (Lucy Lui?). To be honest I wouldn't go near women who behaved in such a frankly outlandish fashion.

 

IME bouncers are there for security of the premises and to ensure the law is observed re age and drugs. Not ensure that women go home alone!

 

Any bar/club that had that policy would be empty!

 

I don't get it, but then that doesn't matter. Its his life, and it would appear that these women actually enjoy using him like this.

 

So.......its Crouching Bimbo, Hidden Jerbear or something.... what the hell.

[alphamale]

Maybe he is in a shadowy gang or something.

are there any gangs who recruite nerdy fellows wearing glasses??

[witabix]

are there any gangs who recruite nerdy fellows wearing glasses??

 

 

Yeah! 'Course!

 

What?

 

Are you serious man.....

 

You never heard of the 'Assassins Guild of Unix'?

 

Check out the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Roleplay Guide pp 12,678,456!!!

 

Get with the program Alpha!!!

[cygny]

haha--well all i can say is, you should try being a girl for a few weeks...

 

i have had guys try to separate me from my friends and take me away from places to god knows where (there was trickery in all this--some legitimate-sounding excuse to go outside for a few minutes--i realized what was happening and ran the hell away about a block from the club), i have had guys actually strip off naked in front of me and do a handstand in a swimming pool so they could show me their penis, when only a few other people were around...i've had guys walk up to me and expose themselves on the beach at night...

 

i could go on and on...but any woman who ventures out there at night without some rescue/backup plan is asking for trouble, in my view. too many women getting drugged, raped and murdered.

[witabix]

haha--well all i can say is, you should try being a girl for a few weeks...

 

..................

 

i could go on and on...but any woman who ventures out there at night without some rescue/backup plan is asking for trouble, in my view. too many women getting drugged, raped and murdered.

 

I hear what you are saying Cygny. And you are right, too many women, one is too many in my book.

 

There has never been a time in recent memory, as far as I am aware, that a woman could go out alone at night, anywhere.

 

This world is dangerous, thats the point I am making. It is quite dangerous as a man as well. I can't understand why someone would volunteer to put themselves in harms way by behaving in such a fashion.

 

If you have a male friend/friends, sure go with him/them to the bar/club. If you go with a female friend/friends thats cool.

 

But to require the guy/guys to stand in the corner and watch you while you chat to other guys and then come over at a signal is just way wierd.

 

I know of some men who would become very 'upset' if they were aware of this. If it happened to me I would be a little freaked out, who is this woman? Who is this guy? WTF is going on here? If they leave together subsequently I would think he was a pimp or something, seriously, its freaky behaviour to me. As I said above my culture does not work like this.

 

Maybe his does. Its ok. Just odd to me.

[cygny]

I'm a little surprised that you would find it that odd, to be honest. Maybe things are more innocent in Ireland? i can't quite get why you think it's dangerous for a man, but ok for a woman to be there on her own. And when you realize that these players hang out in packs, looking for girls that look vulnerable, and approach her with a wing man and a script all in place, drinks in hand, it's pretty nuts to be hanging out in a naive state of mind.

It's not something I do all the time, but I have had guys 'watch out' for me before. Especially in places where there are drugs and lots of drinking. Basically any club.

[witabix]

Yes, it seems different here.

 

I have only ever had one small experience of anything like this. a few years ago.

 

I asked a young woman if she was next to order. That was all, so that I didn't jump the queue.

 

A second later a young man came up into my face and said "Are you talking to her? f*** OFF!"

 

I was utterly shocked!

 

She apologised for him and said he was her brother. I was twice their age.

 

I just smiled and said its ok.

 

He came at me again and had to be educated in good manners.

 

He may have thought that I was some dirty old perv, chatting his little sister up, but he was wrong.

 

'Defending' a woman from male advances, not attempted abduction BTW, is not a mans 'job'.

 

If a woman doesn't want to talk to a guy it is easy to politely decline. Surely most guys get this. Ok there are nutcases out there, but there surely can't be that many that all women need a chaperone.

 

Maybe the USA has become once again the Wild West. But I am still at a loss to understand.