3 strikes and you're out (or not?)

[bitter and sad]

I could write a book on the following situation, but I'll try to tell this story as concisely as possible.  Some info is slightly off to protect the innocent.  Pls bare with me.

I'm a MM who had an EA with a younger woman many years ago (decades).  The EA lasted roughly 5-6 months and ended pretty dramatically.  My W suspected and I admitted to it.  That began 4-5 mos of close-to NC w my AP, during which I decided to end my M to be with her (I did not tell AP).  Just before I was going to announce this to my W, my AP completely eviscerated me with a final goodbye message where she denied anything previous had been real.  I was absolutely devastated, and was probably clinically depressed for a couple years.  About 4 years later, ex-AP contacts me out of the blue.  She's now married, no kids, and has moved to another city far away.  She apologizes for how she ended things years ago and within a few messages and a couple tel calls, in a couple days, we are in full EA again, albeit from a distance.  This builds for a few months - during which we meet a couple times (in public places) and even begin talking permanence - but ends abruptly when she accidentally becomes pregnant (yes, by her H).  This time, she is devastated.  But, bottom line, that's that, right?  But wait... 5 years later, she contacts me again, out of the blue.  That begins the A of all As.  Daily if not hourly contact (calls, texts, emails), to include rendezvous at our hometown where it all began, airports, hotels, and several days together at a resort.  I even flew to her city once, saw her house, and she asked me if I could see myself living there with her and her 2 young children.  This time we both openly discussed and planned how/when we'd leave our respective spouses, and where/how we'd start our life together.  Everything that could be said and promised was said and promised.  Then about a month before "D-day," she backed out and ended us.  That was about a month after she had what I can only surmise was a complete nervous breakdown while out [and drinking heavily], during which we had an incredibly heavy, emotional, and earnest discussion about finally being together.  A day or two after that call, she told me she had a serious medical event that night - I believe requiring an ER visit (and of course her H) - but she didn't offer any more information.  A month later, where there was much more limited contact, the final phone call.

Why do I write now?  First, if anyone wants to discuss here, or DM, I have an awful lot to share and say regarding As, breaking up, getting back together, being the OW or OM, May-December romances - I'd say I've been through it all.  Secondly, I just found out, she's moved to my area.  I'll say, for no good reason, meaning, that I'm aware of.  This is the first time we've lived in the same town since the initial EA.  She's now an empty-nester.  Her H had a big job where they last lived.  Neither of her kids goes to school nearby.  She has no connection to this city other than I live here.  And, it appears she's using her maiden name again (??).  I might guess she's gotten divorced, although she and her H are both listed as the buyers of her/their new place.  I have no contact information (without unacceptable risk).  I think she's been here for roughly 7-8 months.  She once told me:  "as long as the two of us are walking the face of this earth, we may be together."  

Edited 22 hours ago by a LoveShack.org Moderator
privacy of other party

[ExpatInItaly]

What advice are you seeking - whether or not to contact her? 

 

[bitter and sad]

Any advice or comment you'd like to give.  As I said, I do not have a way to contact her without it coming at some risk.  Meaning, I don't know that it'd be "secure," i.e. whether her H or kids may intercept or see it.  So that alone is a reason not to try.  Moreover, I figure if she wanted to reestablish any kind of contact, she would.  She hasn't.  Of course that latter point goes to a issue/problem we had throughout the nearly 12 years of our on-again, off-again relationship, especially in the acute contact periods, i.e. the 3 affairs (on that point, was it 3 As, or 1 off and on affair?  Hard to say, but it doesn't really matter, I suppose).

The issue was - without mincing words - who was going to pull the trigger first?  In the initial EA, I was married (w kids still at home), and she was single (but w a long-time BF).  The 2nd time, 5 years later, she was then married, but w no kids, and my kids were in college/late HS.  The 3rd time, another 5 years later, she then had 2 kids, and my kids were all grown and out of the house.  Obviously, in the first instance, the ball was in my court - it was up to me to leave my W and become available to her.  However, I later learned - during the 2nd act, when she fully explained her thoughts and actions during the 1st - that she was incredibly, deeply in love w me and wanted me to "come to her," but that she was hugely conflicted not to express that too strongly to me such thar she would feel she was the cause of my marriage ending.  Well, the Catch-22 there was for me to go ahead and end my marriage, I had to KNOW that she wanted a life with me.  So, a kind of chicken and the egg issue - we each were waiting for a definitive signal from the other, and we never got there before EA-1 ended.  That issue was perhaps still present to some degree in the EA-2, but  it was more clear what we both wanted - we just didn't have time for that to play out before she became pregnant.  The 3rd instance, the issue definitely was present once again, but the "burden" had definitely shifted to her making the definitive decision/declaration/action to end her M, because she then had 2 young children, whereas mine were raised and gone.  We did however have the time, and time together, to both reach the decision we were both going to do what we needed to to finally be together, but I think her breakdown was likely a result of the cognitive dissonance associated with breaking up her family to be with me.  Basically, what I went through in EA-1, I just kept my mental/emotional breakdown inside whereas her manifested physically.  That then led to our final breakup a month later.

So, do I want to contact her.  Sure.  Can I, or should I?  See 1st paragraph.  I have always wanted contact, at a bare minimum.  In fact, given the horribleness and devastation of the EA-1 ending, when she contacted me 5 years later, I told her I did not want to continue any contact whatsoever unless she swore/guaranteed that she'd never do that again to me (go complete, forever NC).  She not only agreed she would not - she laughed it off as impossible.  She did.  3rd go-round - same conversation; same reaction; same result.  She did.  It's now 16 years later.  A lifetime later.  We don't even know each other anymore.  Sure, of course we both know/remember what we once were.  What we meant to one another.  What we wanted.  But that was then and this is now.  I don't know that we could ever be anything more than friends at this point.  Pretty special friends, with an incredibly powerful past together, but I highly doubt it could ever be more than that.  TBH, I don't even know I would want that.  I also don't know that I wouldn't.  It'd all depend on the reconnection.  What is a bit scary is that in the prior two instances of our getting back in touch, it took 24-48 hrs tops for us to be totally "in" once again.  Of course that was 20s-40s and 30s-50s, not 50s-60s, and with 5 yr breaks, not 16+.

So here's the best I can do/say right now.  Yes, I wish she was in my life...in some way.  But when I suggested this in the past to her, she always replied that two people who think/want/love like we both did, could never be just friends.  No idea if that's changed, or if she wants or is ready now for "everything."  If so, she may see moving here as the obvious first move/signal, and see the ball as being in my court, once again reluctant to go too far in fully expressing herself to me.  Or...finally, her moving here has nothing to do w me, and I'm nuts.  Perhaps that's why I'm writing here.

[flitzanu]

wait so to clarify, you ARE divorced or you never divorced your wife and still cheating on her all this time later?

[bitter and sad]

What?  I guess you do need clarification.

Um, the first 3 words of my story are, "I'm a MM."  And, how am I cheating?  I said several times I've had no contact w this woman for 16+ years.

[ExpatInItaly]

Are you not the same man who was in knots in another thread over his wife's affairs? The one trying to find a way forward and stay in your marriage? 

I don't understand why you would even consider inviting this other woman back in your life. 

[bitter and sad]

Short answer - Yes.  Though, I would not characterize my other posts as, "trying to find a way forward and stay in my marriage."  Yes, I strongly believe (to, am certain) my wife had at least one A, and likely at least one other (more fling than A).  However, I definitely was not trying to find a way to stay in my marriage.  The other thread was about my "bitter[ness] and sad[ness]" that she never has admitted these As to me, and my angst/difficulty in accepting that mentally (the dishonesty, not the As).  As I stated in that thread several times, our marriage is just fine otherwise; that is, outside my own despondency re her what appears to be, permanent dishonesty.  But that's not what I am writing about here.  These are separate issues.

As far as "inviting this other woman back in my life," I am not looking for another A.  However, "this woman" has been in my life - emotionally - for 28 years.  She always will be.  Not hourly, not daily, maybe not even weekly, but permanently since EA-1.  She is a part of who I am and I have no doubt I am a part of who she is.  And always will be.  Again, if you, or anyone, hasn't done so yet, I implore you to watch the Ben Platt, "Bad Habit" performance on Colbert in 2019 that I referenced (particularly, the lyrics, but the performance is incredible too).  "This woman" chose to post to that clip almost 10 years after we last ended.  I can't explain it any further or better unless you watch that, contemplate her endorsement, and we then sat down and discussed this for a few hours.

[basil67]

My view is that if you and your affair partner were meant to be together, you would have both pulled the trigger on your existing marriages years ago.   

[Lotsgoingon]

I'm sorry but you are operating in fantasy to think you could possibly just up and leave your wife and your married life and take up with this other person and somehow everything would be all right. No way. 

Get this woman out of your brain, and to do that you would need to do some emotional maturing yourself. You need to do  some real adult work of realizing fantasizing about getting together with this woman is not adult fantasy--it's juvenile fantasy. Let her go. Get your mind off her. 

Cut her off and work on your marriage. Improve the marriage. If you can't do that and can't bear it, leave. 

 

[Gebidozo]

 I don’t understand why you keep referring to your marriage as “fine” in your other thread and this one.

The situation is much worse than one could have deduced from your earlier thread. I thought your emotional affair was long over. Turns out it is an ongoing toxic thing that you’re still obviously obsessed with.

I don’t see how you could possibly stay with your wife, but I also don’t see how you could possibly get together with that woman. She broke it off several times and made it very clear over the course of many years that you couldn’t trust her.

 

[Carlston]

1 hour ago, Gebidozo said:

 I don’t understand why you keep referring to your marriage as “fine” 

 

 

We see a train wreck, he sees everything as A-ok. Because everything is relative.

 

[bitter and sad]

Hard to answer the last 5 posts at once - nevertheless, here goes.

1. I'm not trying to leave my M and resume an A with ex-AP.  2.  I'm not "fantasizing" about leaving my wife and "getting together" w her.  And I think she and I know more than anyone that "everything wouldn't be ok."  Like anyone who might do this, we would've decided the benefits outweigh the pain/problems.  But, as 67 points out, we never both decided that at the same time so as to make it happen.  3.  I know Geb would like to resume arguing about my M, etc., but we've been through that enough already.  I'm not in an EA.  Thinking about someone from the past is not "continuing an EA."  I also already said I have no interest in an A, EA or otherwise.  [ ] 

Thanks for your thoughts, all.  Like my other thread elsewhere, I posted this to see what other people thought of my situation.  And like the other post, everyone brings their own views from their own backgrounds and experiences.  The limitation here is that we're only typing words - there is no real-time dialogue to clarify things.  People jump to conclusions that aren't present.  I'm not ill, in need of counseling, in a bad marriage, in a fantasy, looking to end my marriage, etc.  Maybe some here are; maybe many here are.  I'm not.  I am only relating my experience and some recent thoughts and issues.  It's done calmly and without any crisis.  I'm nowhere near crisis (and I have been in the past, so I know what that is).

Finally, I obviously am incapable of conveying who my ex-AP was to me, or me to her, or who we are now.  As I said, we don't even know each other anymore.  We have not spoken in over 16 years.  But yes, her now moving here and living 20 miles away from me, is curious to me and of some interest.  But not what y'all are thinking or suggesting.  Thanks again.

Edited 22 hours ago by a LoveShack.org Moderator
privacy

[Imogen_77]

Wait, how do you know she has moved to your area, if you haven't had any contact in 16 years?
Anyway - if you're contemplating reaching out, I wonder what your end goal is. Haven't you established that a simple friendship is not going to work? 
Looked up that video clip, and yes, solid performance, but I couldn't figure the heck out what she possibly commented. 
So either way ...... I get your dilemma, I really do, but I don't understand your thought process very well.
However, I can respect that 20 years of "history" is not exactly nothing.

Keep us posted!

[bitter and sad]

So, 77, first things first.  So...there's this thing called the internet.  JK, trying to be funny.  How do I know she's in the area?  Well, I do an occasional internet search - occasional meaning once a month or so (depends on how the mood strikes me).  Just to see what's going on in her life.  She's mostly buttoned up on social media, but this was just a general search that popped up their new home.

Thanks for watching the video clip.  It does add some perspective about us, does it not?  I don't recall what her exact comment was, but along the lines of the song speaking to her.  And again, that was nearly 10 years after our last A.  By the way - not terribly important - but do you see us/me as having had 3 affairs, or 1 long, interrupted A?  Not to the present mind you, but that c. 12 year period of 3 different periods of contact.

Great question about my "end goal."  The easy answer is, contact, and yes, hopefully, resuming and continuing our friendship.  So have I/we established that isn't going to work?  Well, she didn't think it'd work, but that was 16-28 years ago - circumstances and thoughts can change.  I don't recall which episode she said that in - I'm thinking it was the first, 28 years ago (so she was very young).  Because, as I said, in the 2nd and 3rd, she promised she would never abandon me again (now referred to as ghosting, right?).  On that latter point, Geb makes a worthwhile observation about never being able to trust her.  I won't lie - her going NC 2 additional times after vowing to never do so again is not insignificant to me.  I have given it a lot of thought.  It is very disturbing.  But I do largely excuse and understand it as necessary, at least to her situation and mental health.  But I'll add and acknowledge, with not having had any chance to talk that through her doing it again, it has affected my thoughts about her.  Note, I said thoughts, and not feelings.  I contemplated what word to use there.  No doubt, my feelings have waned - but that is to be expected when you don't know someone for 16+ years.  But my long-term feelings are in large part based on remembering what we were like together (indescribable - the emotional energy and connection was off the charts).  So, of course they waned in the two 5-years of NC btw EA-1, EA-2 and A-3, but once we were in contact again - writing, talking, meeting, emoting - boom, right back to the feelings and love we had and shared.  Which brings us right back to your question, and the "slippery slope."  I'd like this person in my life.  But of course, it'd have to be secret.  I guess most would call anything that has to be secret from your spouse as wrong.  And, if involving a member of the opposite sex, an A.  Well, I'd say, not if emotions and plans are held in check.  But...the slippery slope.  We have never got back in touch and it not resulted in emotion.  Again, quite quickly.  So is that possible now that it's been so long, and we've firmly established full lives without one another.  And then there's her present circumstances - which again, I know nothing about.  Is she separated, divorced?  Why'd she move to my city?  Is she now available?  Am I?  I once told her during the first EA - it turns out, quite prophetically - in the context of us possibly being together, that we didn't want to lament our decisions 5, 10 or 20 years later "when it was too late."  Hah, it so happened that EA-2 and A-3 were 5 and 10 years after EA-1, and that it's now 27 years after that first breakup.  Too late clearly seems applicable.  So there's your long-winded answer to my end goal.

I'll likely do nothing.  That said, I did email her on her b'day (and Christmas as I recall) in the early breakup years.  It so happens that a major, major "decade" b'day is at the end of this month.  However, I don't have any method of safe communication with her.

[Imogen_77]

I get it so you’re doing the snooping - but once a month is kind of frequent don’t you think? After 16 years of no contact you’re still snooping on her once a month? That’s pretty big.
I know you don’t want people to cross reference your other thread, but I gotta tell you that there is a lot of double standard going on here. You would like to keep in touch with her, but it would have to be a secret? And at the same time you are pretty hurt by your wife not being upfront with you - so how does that fit? 
i’m currently single, but I’ve been in your shoes and I have seen both sides and as matters stand now I would be extremely stressed out by any secrets in a relationship. I wouldn’t want that. It’s just stressful. I do not recommend it.

…. but if it’s so important to you, why don’t you just reach out and see what she says? Give it a shot. She might be divorced. Because the way I read your posts it looks like you will never get over the what ifs, if you don’t simply “do what needs to be done”.

[bitter and sad]

You are wise and helpful, 77.  Re snooping, it can be more, it can be less.  In 16 years, I go through periods.  Periods of very little thoughts (and snooping) and periods of more.  Naturally of late, it's been more.

Ah, got me on the double-standard.  I've contemplated that of late too (with these posts).  My only defense is that there's a difference between her actual short, sexual infidelity with very little meaningful feeling and my internet "snooping" and memories of times gone past.   So at the moment, any comparison is apples and oranges.  Moreover, I specifically asked about her actions and was met w flat denial.  That's a definite exacerbation.  Now, if some kind of contact began with ex-AP, that may be a different story.  But even then, it might still be relatively benign.  Finally, this may be viewed as nothing more than rationalization, but my "straying" was with someone I was deeply, deeply in love with.  My W's were a purely sexual fling in one case, and even though the 2nd was longer in duration, again it was primarily sexual and had no life-long emotional connection.  All of that said, there may be differing viewpoints on which "type" of extra-marital affair is worse.  My W's first words to me when she suspected my first [E]A was not, "are you sleeping w her," but rather, "do you love her?"  Ouch.  I did answer honestly.

[Imogen_77]

Yes, by the way, did you ever have sex with your AP or was it merely EA?

[bitter and sad]

Hate to get all Bill Clinton’ish on you, but define sex. I doubt we can, or I should, get too graphic, but more than EA, and not what my W did. Try this: I adored her. 
It was enough for her to tell me in the ensuing weeks and months that I had “ruined” her sexual relationship w her H. I took that to mean that he could no longer satisfy her. Does that answer your question?

[Imogen_77]

Yes, we can define sex. You might not want to, or you might be uncomfortable with it, but it’s still definable. So I’m assuming you did have a physical connection/sex …. I was just asking this, because the EA aspect was very dominating in all of your descriptions.

… and I don’t want to come across as flippant & I don’t want to burst your bubble, but when a woman tells you that you ruined her for her husband or for any other sexual partners she may have in the future, that’s usually something that many women say in order to - I don’t know - get a attention, or make you feel better, make you feel good about yourself or make you feel connected to her. It doesn’t necessarily mean that this is actually based on facts ….. just something to consider.

It’s a very interesting twist.