Ambivalent (did she or didn't she, and if so, at this point...does it even matter?)

[bitter and sad]

My situation is so fact-specific, if the "wrong" person reads this, my identity would be easily ascertained.  So, some facts may be inexact, but I'll relate the main points.

I am pretty sure my wife has had at least one affair, maybe 2, maybe more. These would have occurred quite a while ago.  These have not been discussed extensively, or even confrontationally, but regardless, she has never admitted to anything, and unequivocally denied the one that is most certain.  Clearly complicating things is that way back when, I actually encouraged her to be with other men.  She never agreed to that either, so it's not like any affairs would be ok.  To add - before getting into my, "what to do" question - is that I had an affair as well, after her possible first (quite likely, but not a certainty), and before her 2nd (98% certainty).  The near-certain affair occurred while I was far away for a long period of time, and may have also included sex w a few other men as well - an old BF, 2 BFFs' husbands (w/permission actually).  To be clear about this near-certain affair and the flings, my wife acts the conservative, but she was/is extremely attractive, gets plenty of attention from men (the BFFs' Hs for sure), certainly enjoys sex, and had considerable time to do anything she wanted with anyone.  I should add, before I went away, I once again told her that I would understand if she turned to others to "have her needs met" while I was gone.

A tad more info (this is where I have to be careful).  By most outside observations, we are close to the ideal, happily-married couple.  And I'd say we are happily-married.  Retired, grandchildren, no $$ concerns, etc.  So, what's the problem many might say?  Her past, and the long-term dishonesty, eats at me, secretly.  Yes, I gave her the so-called Hall Pass, even encouraged it.  She rejected it.  If she was to sleep with other men, we could have shared that - it could have been fun for both of us.  That's not what happened.  I later had an emotional affair w a younger woman, and that was found out.  I admitted to it.  While ultimately I was "forgiven," I have paid for it dearly.  We are ostensibly healed, beyond it, but hah, a woman never forgets.  That card has been played many times over the years.  The issue then has become...my bitterness.  Hey, but what about you?  And your dalliances were not emotional, they were sexual, or both in a couple instances.  And not one time, or with one person, but 2, 3, or more, equating to dozens of sexual encounters.  But you get to be recognized as the chaste one, because unlike me, you won't admit to it/them.  Wife-good; Husband-bad.  But that's not likely true.  And I resent your duplicity when my honesty cost me significantly.

Now, anticipating some comments and advice to be offered.  Comments - how are these affairs and how are you bothered when you encouraged it?  Like I said, she rejected this flatly anytime it was offered.  So, in my book, while maybe still exciting to me sexually, it is NOT ok morally, and NOT ok in terms of marital fidelity and honesty.  Advice - if it bothers you, confront her.  Talk.  Communication is key.  Yup, all the usual advice - communication and honesty are paramount.  Sure, but if I bring any of this up:  (a) she'll go nuts, (b) deny it all again, adamantly, vehemently, and (c) turn it completely around and accuse me of subversion, wanting out, why now, why are you doing this, yada, yada.  We cannot have a rational, reasonable, honest, fair conversation about these things.  It's impossible.  Believe me, I know.  It would be akin to declaring divorce (which I am NOT saying I want).  Leading me to...

What to do?  It has haunted me for a long, long time, but only seems to be getting worse as I age and enter my senior years.

[Gebidozo]

If you encouraged her to sleep with other men, why are you surprised that she eventually did it?

These kinds of things should be discussed very gently and carefully, and even then, if there is so much as a hint of disagreement, abandoned completely.

Instead, it appears that you repeatedly, one-sidedly suggested that she has sex with other men, disregarding the fact that she kept disagreeing.

She probably felt disrespected and hurt when you told her she could “have her needs met” with someone else when you were gone.

Most people resent the idea of having sex with someone else while being in a monogamous relationship. I know I’d be very offended if my partner seriously suggested something like that.

Of course the fact that she went on to have affairs and is now refusing to come clean is deplorable. That doesn’t, however, somehow renders your own affair harmless, whether you confessed to it or not.

It seems that both your wife and you have been feeling very bitter about each other for a while.

I honestly have trouble understanding how this very messy situation arising from a glaring lack of open, honest communication and mutual understanding can be classified as a happy relationship.

If having a rational, reasonable, honest conversation is akin to divorce to you and your wife, then what can be possibly suggested here but actual divorce?

Edited February 11 by Gebidozo

[Sanch62]

If wife raises your past mistakes again, ask her whether she wants to consider the two of you working together as a couple on the same side, or whether she wants to regard you as her adversary and continue treating you as such. Ask her if she's willing to pursue couple's counseling to work this out. If not, tell her that raising the same old past grievances again is off the table, then, for both of you, and the first one to bring it up must schedule and pay for your first counseling session.

Meanwhile, have you worked with a therapist on your own to figure out how important any of this 'must' be to keep spinning yourself into a deeper hole about it?

If you're losing mental self-control as you age, that would be a good place to start for treatment.

[bitter and sad]

Guys, I've tried to respond here to you, but either I don't know what I'm doing, or there is some control where the original poster cannot add to or continue the conversation??  I guess I'll try one more time.

This issue is not an overt one between us.  Your answers seem to suggest there is an ongoing tension or trouble between us.  No, nothing of the sort.  This "bitter and sad" [ness] is only in my head.  Neither the hotwifing/cuckolding thing, nor the past affair(s), real or imagined, known or unknown, are ever discussed.  We live a normal, happy life.  Once in a blue moon, she might make a reference to my A, but not meanly or to start anything - just in an understood context, and then dropped.  Same with the HW/Cuck thing.  It might pop up in a movie or book we're listening to, and then it's gone just as quickly, not discussed.

My issue that is occasionally eating at me, and which I am giving more thought as I age, is my becoming more bitter and sad that I am living out my days with a woman who has lied, and will have lied, to me about maybe the most important thing in a married couple's life - fidelity - for the better part of 50 years by the time we die.  50 years where I [figuratively] wear the Scarlet Letter "A", while she gets off scott-free as the dutiful, loving wife, ONLY because I told the truth and admitted it when confronted, whereas she denied it and lied about it, repeatedly, and then for the next 30 years presently, and possibly 50+ total.  FWIW, I have actually read that women will deny an affair until the ends of the earth, whereas men are more apt to confess.  I think this is because women are programmed to always appear proper and chaste, and they'll cling to that image no matter what.  It's part of their identity.  In my instance, this also explains why she never accepted or agreed to be a hotwife and cuckold me - because I'd then obviously know she was having sex with other men - but instead chose to do it anyway, i.e. cheat, and not tell me.  Man, the irony in that!

How do I get over this?  Should I get over this?  Should I risk everything, and confront her about her fidelity?  Lay it on the line - "I'm not asking you, Honey, I know you did.  I know I asked you to; I know I told you I wanted you to; I know I told you it'd be ok - but that was all contingent on you being truthful with me about everything.  Instead, you rejected my fantasy - something we could have shared; something that actually could have been part of our sex-life and relationship (most studies saying it enhances that) - calling me sick and demanding I get counseling. Instead you went out and cheated on me.  More than once, with more than one man, and not just flings or one-nighters, but you had a boyfriend for nearly 2 years!!!  Pls, just be honest w me.  That's all I am asking.  I'm not going anywhere; we're not ending; we're forever, Honey, but I am entitled to the truth and honesty from the love of my life before I leave this planet.  Can't you give me that?"

[ExpatInItaly]

What has got you so covinced she had these affairs? 

Meaning, what sort of evidence have you found? 

[bitter and sad]

As stated in an earlier post, it's somewhat risky for me to give too much detail (as it may serve to identify me).  Though at this point, I might even welcome my wife finding and reading this thread.

First, the certainty.  This is the near 2-year A while I was away.  A new neighbor moved in down the street a month or two after I left.  He was single (divorced, I believe), about 4-5 yrs younger than my wife, "cute," and he began to hang out quite regularly with another neighbor couple who my wife and I were very good friends with.  So the 4 of them became a regular item at the neighbor's house, and at neighborhood events/parties.  Obviously not in a declared/overt A way, but the bottom line was the 4 of them hung our a lot.  In fact, I was home for a short weekend about 5 mos in (away), and driving by the new neighbor's house, my then-HS daughter said to me, "have you met [name] yet - you know Mom hangs out with him at the [neighbor couple]'s house a lot, and she thinks he's really cute."  So I met him that weekend, and when he was introduced to me, I said, "so your [wife's name]'s 'substitute husband'?"  I told him to be sure to "take good care of her" while I'm gone.  A few months later - I was now overseas - my wife told me he wanted to take her out to dinner to "thank her" for welcoming him to the neighborhood and being so friendly and hospitable.  I told her it sounded like a date to me - honestly, while getting hard - and she said, no, no, he just wants to thank me.  She kinda caught on that maybe I was encouraging the date aspect, so she reverted back to, no, no, I'm not going then.  I backed off the date talk, and told her I understood it was platonic, etc., and she could go if she'd like.  TBH, I have no idea whether they went or not.  Three other indicia;  two sexual, and one verbal.  I was back home 2x in this near 2-year period.  Each time, my wife did some sexual things with me that she had never done before [in 28 years together]!  One was a position we had never done; the other was she had shaved "down there."  You tell me how those things pop out of nowhere after 28 years!??  And here's the nail in the coffin.  About a month after I had returned for good, we were at a fundraiser for this guy's ill father.  It was winter, so I left to get the car.  I forgot my wife had the keys, so I went back in about 10 mins.  My wife was talking to him with her back to me.  As I got close, I heard it say, "no, it's ok - I'll just start cheating on him."  Um, does it get any more clear than that?  So it seemed pretty clear to me, he had called it off since I was now home.  She had no doubt told him at some point early on, that it wasn't cheating, because I had given her the "hall pass" I mentioned in my first post.  She might have even told him I was a self-proclaimed cuckold, but regardless whether she had added that, he must have told her he wasn't going to continue their A as I was home and any "hall pass' had expired.  My wife's desperate response - no, she was willing to now "cheat" on me.  I confronted her in the car, and she went nuts - frankly, I don't even recall what her defense was.  To me, I was barely listening because I had quite obviously put 2+2+2+2 together.  Oh, one last thing (almost forgot).  About 3-4 yrs later, my wife tells me that [neighbor - now remarried] had called her and told her he was being blackmailed by some guy who claimed to have "proof-positive" that he had an affair a few years prior with his neighbor's wife while her H was away.  The guy demanded that he and the W tell their respective Hs the truth, or he was going to.  My wife of course told me the whole thing was preposterous and untrue, but she thought she should tell me.  The neighbor had his IT people trace the computer IP address to California, but he never heard another thing (to my knowledge anyway), and it all went away with my wife laughing it off.  So, you tell me - did she have an A with this guy?

The other possible guys during this period?  The two BFF's Hs, and maybe another guy or two (old BF and another neighbor).  Just theories - no compelling proof or near-certainty.  I know the guys all would do her in a heartbeat, given the chance.  I know the wives would've allowed it, if not encouraged it (long, BFF relationships).  My wife visited and drank with the one couple every week - just the 3 of them - and I was told stories of the wives getting drunk.  My wife also visited the other couple at their summer cottage - all drinking, boating and sunbathing.  That wife is the same wife/BFF who my wife and she picked up the two guys on a girls' cruise about 10 years earlier than the A mentioned above.  The 4 of them paired off and and spent 4 days with them, including getting a hotel for an extra day after the cruise.  My wife claimed she had only kissed the other guy, nothing more, but a couple weeks later, I found a note she had hidden with his full name, address, email, tel, and birthday(?).  She also told me - and this was kind of the height of my encouraging the hotwife/cuckold activities - that she'd like to ask him to come visit and stay with us for a few days.  She said it was more for sightseeing, but I saw it differently.  Not the usual thing a wife suggests to her husband.  I have no idea whether she asked him or not, but nothing ever came of it.  Anyway, on another occasion where we were visiting this same couple at their cottage, my wife actually asked/dared this BFF H to follow her up to the cottage if he was interested (again, drinking, bikini...).  I told him to go ahead, didn't bother me.  He didn't.  But, that night, when I came to bed, I told my my wife that BFF's H was still up and he was watching porn.  My wife then got out of bed - wearing a flimsy night shirt as I recall - and said she was going to go see what [H name] was up to.  I told her to enjoy herself.  I fell asleep before she came back to bed.  So, once again, you tell me whether my W has had sex with other guys, whether cheating, on a hall pass, or cuckolding me.

There's my proof/evidence.  Bottom line: she's never admitted it.  If it wasn't with my full knowledge and approval - before or after - that's cheating, nothing else.

[Gebidozo]

Well, she told you she kissed some guy, so technically she did cheat and did admit it.

The rest is mostly speculations that point less to other instances of cheating (those they might have occurred) than to your wife’s deep frustration with the whole situation.

Frankly, the way you kept insisting that she sleep with other men and got excited when she even mentioned them, at the same time scrutinizing her every word and movement and being so angry with her for hiding some things, feels unhinged and borderline scary to me.

 

[bitter and sad]

You don’t see a distinction between mutual, known, consensual activity like the hotwife/cuckold lifestyle, and singular, unknown, behind one’s back cheating and dishonesty?

I understand you may not like or approve of the former, but to give a pass to the latter as a result of that seems pretty bizarre to me.

Guess you’re not too empathetic. It seems you’re thinking, “well, you got what you asked for,” but no, no I didn’t. I was truthful and honest about my sexuality and fantasies, and about an emotional affair, and I got a woman who lied and was deceitful about both. Not sure how you don’t see that. 

[ExpatInItaly]

This marriage sounds quite messed up, and it seems each of you has played a role in its demise. 

It's likely better for both you and her to finally pull the plug and set each other free. 

[Gebidozo]

1 hour ago, bitter and sad said:

You don’t see a distinction between mutual, known, consensual activity like the hotwife/cuckold lifestyle, and singular, unknown, behind one’s back cheating and dishonesty?

Of course I do. As I emphasized several times already, the problem is not your desire of that lifestyle, but your continuous attempts to impose it on your wife.

Her cheating was obviously a wrong response to that, but it’s a symptom of a larger problem - lack of mutual understanding and communication between you and your wife.

 

1 hour ago, bitter and sad said:

I understand you may not like or approve of the former

This has nothing to do with my approval or disapproval. For the record, I don’t find hotwife lifestyle immoral, and I definitely can see its appeal. 

I’m surprised why you keep missing the point - it’s not about the lifestyle, it’s about you trying to coerce your wife to it, your own emotional affair, and the general mess that your relationship has become.

You keep stubbornly isolating your wife’s purported cheating as the only thing that is wrong in your relationship, failing to see the big picture.

[bitter and sad]

I get your viewpoint, Gebidozo.  To both you and Expat, our relationship is not a mess.  On the contrary, anyone who knows us would say it is ideal and perfect (or as near as anyone's can be).  Everything I relate here is all bottled up in my head.  Well, sure, you can then say, "well, your head then is a mess," and I might not disagree with you, at least as far as my original "bitter and sad" issue goes (that being, angst about her lying and cheating and whether or not to bring that out in the open at this point in our "near-perfect" lives).  That parenthetical is the essential issue I first posted about.  The risk-reward in doing so.  Possible piece of mind - yes, through open and honest communication - verse marital armageddon.

And to be clear once again, there are no "continuous attempts to impose [the hotwife lifestyle] on my wife," nor discussion or weaponizing of my EA.  Both are 20-30 years in the past.  I believe it may only seem to be "continuous," "constant," or occurring in the here and now because I am relating it all in an extremely condensed, abbreviated manner here.  I offered - yes, encouraged - the lifestyle long ago, and she rejected it outwardly to me, but dipped her toe in, liked it, accepted it, and engaged in it, without telling me, without admitting it when I found out, and lying about it ever since.  That's not "the lifestyle," and that's not open, honest communication.

As I write, it strikes me that I know the whys and wherefores of this.  She gets to keep/maintain her prim and proper wife persona - to herself and to others - whilst still enjoying the benefits.  The sexual benefits; the ego benefits (I'm attractive and men still want me); the reputational benefits; and the contrasting benefit to my H who cheated on me (all close friends and siblings know of my EA).  The latter being, "poor W," and look, she persevered and saved their marriage.  She will never admit her own behavior because all those things go away - most importantly, the internal, "I did nothing wrong."  She can preserve that by rationalizing that I wanted her to sleep w other men, encouraged it, and even am turned on by it, so in doing so, I (wife) only did what he asked and approved of.  She doesn't make the "cheating/dishonesty" distinction, as I've made to Gebidozo.

Alas, I think I get nowhere by bringing it up.  She'll deny it again, til death do us part, and then I have rocked to beautiful, late-season boat we're now riding in.  Only proof-positive could ever change that (basically, an A partner, a witness, or one of her BFF's giving her up to me).

[ExpatInItaly]

1 hour ago, bitter and sad said:

To both you and Expat, our relationship is not a mess.  On the contrary, anyone who knows us would say it is ideal and perfect (or as near as anyone's can be). 

Multiple affairs and it's "perfect and ideal"?

Yeah, right. Either you're not being honest with them about how much cheating and lying has apparently happened, or their marriages are even messier than yours.

Your relationship is indeed a trainwreck at this point. Sorry, man. No point deluding yourself any further. 

[bitter and sad]

I guess we’re talking past one another at this point. The only A anyone knows about is my 4-5 mos EA 28 years ago. Maybe her BFFs know of my wife’s, but they’d either condone or rationalize it. No one knows of the HW thing (unlmy W told them).

Point being, when I say our marriage looks ideal, I know what I’m talking about. I get that w my reveals here, one can say it’s a mess, but again, last time, this is all my internal consciousness and burden. 

[ExpatInItaly]

3 hours ago, bitter and sad said:

when I say our marriage looks ideal, I know what I’m talking about

That's exactly my point - that it looks "ideal" is meaningless when you and your wife both know it's not. The people around you don't know the truth so it's rather odd you'd cite that as some sort of evidence that it's not a mess. That's like saying someone has a neat and tidy life just because their house looks nice from the outside and the lawn is well-maintained. Who cares what it looks like when on the inside there are multiple infidelities, deception and mistrust? 

Anyway, It all falls well below the standard for what I'd consider acceptable behaviour in a marriage. It's up to you where you want to set your own bar. 

[Gebidozo]

8 hours ago, bitter and sad said:

Point being, when I say our marriage looks ideal, I know what I’m talking about. I get that w my reveals here, one can say it’s a mess, but again, last time, this is all my internal consciousness and burden. 

Oh, so you mean your marriage only looks ideal. Maybe so, but who cares how it looks like? It is definitely a mess. It’s not just your head. It’s also your wife’s head and what she has been doing, and the lack of communication and understanding from which it stems.