Shoot my shot, or take a hike?

[Repentant]

9 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

Dude, nobody is telling to start any acquaintance with a girl by asking her out right away. We are referring to your situation specifically.

In your case, the girl flirted with you. She gave you green light. If you then don’t ask her for a date right away and instead send her passive messages, then it’s completely understandable that she’d lose interest.

You keep stubbornly repeating that the issue is that you’re somehow less shallow than that girl because you wanted to take it slow or whatever. But in reality, this has nothing to do with being shallow or deep and everything to do with you being insecure and overthinking stuff, which is a turn off.

This wasn’t a situation where you had to make some life or death decisions. A girl was flirting with you in a bar and gave you her number.If you liked the girl, you should have made a move instead of waxing poetic about how you two need to “know each other” before you continue for several days straight.

It’s off-putting, it sounds like you’re only interested in being buddies with her or string her along. Some women would be downright insulted by that. I believe that @introverted1 here sounded sort of exasperated when she tried to explain that to you. II don’t know why it’s so hard for you to understand.

Yep, I genuinely don't see the difference. Maybe because I have more details on that night, like her doing most of the talking, like me prioritising finding my friend and focusing on that, she was basically hitting on the barn door. I started letting my guard down (so to speak) only come morning, when I was already wasted enough to barely remember what happened. And I'm not being poetic about this.

Plus I cannot neglect the added detail that several people have reliably told me that she's known to be a flirt. If it were up to me, I wouldn't have reached out at all, and I would have forgotten all about it by next Wednesday, precisely because I don't believe that a woman flirting with me means much of anything in today's world. Sorry, not sorry, them's the societal trends! I'm just playing the game placed in front of me in such a way as to not hate myself when I die! Same for exchanging numbers, exchanging Instas... my Contacts book is a graveyard for unused phone numbers.

So, yes, in this context, I'll take it slow, if at all. Because the most plausible possibility, did, indeed, occur, namely that it meant absolutely nothing from the start. And that's fine! The slow-fade-and-ghost indicate immaturity, nothx, doesn't matter anyway because I'm moving on! Actually, bullet dodged, even!

And if trying to establish a friendship with a potential romantic partner is off-putting, then consider me downright grotesque! 

Edited 15 hours ago by Repentant

[FredEire]

48 minutes ago, Repentant said:

I wasn't even complaining about it :)) I was gobsmacked by the ridiculousness of the concept that saying "hello" instead of blurting out "let's go on a date" as a first interaction would be enough to neutralise the kind of interest which would lead one to flirt for an entire night. I mean, it was clear since yesterday she didn't have that kind of interest in me.

Here's a crazy idea: how 'bout we learn to communicate intent? Kinda' like how people talk and establish that they're down for casual sex, but for flirting, which has just as much potential of ruining someone's day if they weren't in on the joke. Maybe being a bit more considerate and owning our stuff would help.

I mean on the first point sure but there is a middle ground between opening with a dry "hello" and "go out with me". Getting to the point fairly quickly after waiting for a week is what I think people were getting at.

People generally don't work like that. It's a very rigid and "proper" worldview and that's just not how it is. People often behave off impulses and don't even have any idea what they themselves want. They may vocally say they want something and their subconscious drives them to act in a completely different way. Crazy, huh?

But accepting that's just the nature of people and detaching your emotions from it is the first step to working well with the world and other people. Flow is how you adapt and end up in the most satisfied states. Hoping everyone else will go by your rigid rulebook is a fast track to misery and frustration.

Edited 15 hours ago by FredEire

[Gebidozo]

8 minutes ago, Repentant said:

Yep, I genuinely don't see the difference. Maybe because I have more details on that night, like her doing most of the talking, like me prioritising finding my friend and focusing on that, she was basically hitting on the barn door. I started letting my guard down (so to speak) only come morning, when I was already wasted enough to barely remember what happened. And I'm not being poetic about this.

Plus I cannot neglect the added detail that several people have reliably told me that she's known to be a flirt. If it were up to me, I wouldn't have reached out at all, and I would have forgotten all about it by next Wednesday, precisely because I don't believe that a woman flirting with me means much of anything in today's world. Sorry, not sorry, them's the societal trends! I'm just playing the game placed in front of me in such a way as to not hate myself when I die! Same for exchanging numbers, exchanging Instas... my Contacts book is a graveyard for unused phone numbers.

So, yes, in this context, I'll take it slow, if at all. Because the most plausible possibility, did, indeed, occur, namely that it meant absolutely nothing from the start. And that's fine! The slow-fade-and-ghost indicate immaturity, nothx, doesn't matter anyway because I'm moving on! Actually, bullet dodged, even!

And if trying to establish a friendship with a potential romantic partner is off-putting, then consider me downright grotesque! 

Calm down.

Slowly re-read everything you just wrote.

Understand that you literally just confirmed what everyone had told you here: that you overthink things way too much.

You’re throwing in big words such as “today’s world”, “immaturity”, and “grotesque”. You talk about hating yourself when you die. This is some serious, heavy stuff. It can’t be possibly applied to your situation, which was just light flirting in a bar, as you readily admit yet for some reason draw some incredibly overwrought conclusions from that.

Your insecurity is way too noticeable, and this goes way beyond that one bar incident. Perhaps therapy would be a good move. We aren’t professionals here, we’re just a bunch of people who once came to this forum for advice and now try to give some to others.

[Repentant]

Just now, FredEire said:

I mean on the first point sure but there is a middle ground between opening with a dry "hello" and "go out with me". Getting to the point fairly quickly after waiting for a week is what I think people were getting at.

People generally don't work like that. It's a very rigid and "proper" worldview and that's just not how it is. People often behave off impulses and don't even have any idea what they themselves want. They have vocally say they want something and their subconscious drives them to act in a completely different way. Crazy, huh?

But accepting that's just the nature of people and detaching your emotions from it is the first step to working well with the world and other people. Flow is how you adapt and end up in the most satisfied states. Hoping everyone else will go by your rigid rulebook is a fast track to misery and frustration.

Well, I tried, but she flaked, so...! :)) I've had longer conversations with a random cashier in Germany! :))

No, but I disagree with you in that it'd be as widespread if people actually took some accountability (which, let's be serious, the grand majority are not). I'm not saying a human being can be perfect, but I am convinced that a human being can be SIGNIFICANTLY better than this.

What's the point of living, then, if I have to detach my emotions with 3 of every 5 people I meet? :)) And that's where I see the beauty in my set of principles - I do not expect others to follow them, because nobody knows my principles in detail, but they allow me to clearly see when people are being random buttholes for no reason. This has honestly helped me more than it has hindered me.

[Repentant]

10 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

Calm down.

Slowly re-read everything you just wrote.

Understand that you literally just confirmed what everyone had told you here: that you overthink things way too much.

You’re throwing in big words such as “today’s world”, “immaturity”, and “grotesque”. You talk about hating yourself when you die. This is some serious, heavy stuff. It can’t be possibly applied to your situation, which was just light flirting in a bar, as you readily admit yet for some reason draw some incredibly overwrought conclusions from that.

Your insecurity is way too noticeable, and this goes way beyond that one bar incident. Perhaps therapy would be a good move. We aren’t professionals here, we’re just a bunch of people who once came to this forum for advice and now try to give some to others.

Oh, yep, you've misunderstood my meaning:)) I like big words, they're poignant! :)) And, yes, societal trends are very much tied to what happens randomly at a bar because that's, like, part of society. Genuinely don't see what's so worrying about my messaging, it's a well-known fact that dating has become more and more superficial and that commitment is more and more of a taboo, why would it be unreasonable to assume that a societal trend is somewhat universally applicable? The micro reflects the macro, as the macro reflects the micro. 

And, this goes waaay offtopic, but... yeah, wouldn't it be nice if we all could die without hating ourselves? I mean, genuinely, what's therapy-worthy with that thought? What's wrong in wanting to be a decent person in what I understand a decent person to be, for myself? Heck, I'd even say that I'm doing a pretty decent job so far, with an acceptable amount of slip-ups!

Edit: and, yes, ghosting is a sign of immaturity - I'd sure as heck consider it immature if someone decided to slowly ignore someone's existence just to avoid having to say an uncomfortable truth. 

Edited 15 hours ago by Repentant

[Gebidozo]

You still choose to ignore everything I’m telling you and just keep arguing for pages upon pages about meaningless semantics and totally unrelated heavy stuff.

I’m not a girl, but even I feel tired from this. Sorry, man, but I think I’m going to “ghost” you now.

[Repentant]

1 minute ago, Gebidozo said:

You still choose to ignore everything I’m telling you and just keep arguing for pages upon pages about meaningless semantics and totally unrelated heavy stuff.

I’m not a girl, but even I feel tired from this. Sorry, man, but I think I’m going to “ghost” you now.

S'all good, this is the afterparty, I signaled I was done two pages ago =))

Anyway, genuinely no hard feelings and thank you for taking the time to offer your perspectives! We disagreed and that's fine! Different strokes for different folks!

[FredEire]

19 minutes ago, Repentant said:

Well, I tried, but she flaked, so...! :)) I've had longer conversations with a random cashier in Germany! :))

No, but I disagree with you in that it'd be as widespread if people actually took some accountability (which, let's be serious, the grand majority are not). I'm not saying a human being can be perfect, but I am convinced that a human being can be SIGNIFICANTLY better than this.

What's the point of living, then, if I have to detach my emotions with 3 of every 5 people I meet? :)) And that's where I see the beauty in my set of principles - I do not expect others to follow them, because nobody knows my principles in detail, but they allow me to clearly see when people are being random buttholes for no reason. This has honestly helped me more than it has hindered me.

Because without being able to let certain things slide and decide to practice non-judgement and not to take certain things on board, over time you become bitter and twisted and just find more and more evidence to confirm those world views, and any joy gradually fades.

As I said before I only say that becuase Ive been there, done that, got the t-shirt. But you can decide for yourself if you think theres some truth in that, or not.

[ExpatInItaly]

When was your last relationship OP, and how long did it last?

[Repentant]

10 hours ago, FredEire said:

Because without being able to let certain things slide and decide to practice non-judgement and not to take certain things on board, over time you become bitter and twisted and just find more and more evidence to confirm those world views, and any joy gradually fades.

As I said before I only say that becuase Ive been there, done that, got the t-shirt. But you can decide for yourself if you think theres some truth in that, or not.

Oh, but I do that! With certain things. I fully believe no human being has ever been or will ever be perfect, and I understand exactly what being an imperfect human being means. But not everything falls under "imperfection." Some things fall under "pure malice," and it's those things I just can't let pass by.

Offtopic, I used to be the exact opposite, I tried to let everything pass by and practiced non-judgement left, right and center, because I was raised to ignore my emotions, my empathy, and my needs. Lemme tell ya', once I managed to get rid of those chains and let loose everything I was keeping locked up, my entire world changed. I'd rather be furious while seeing the truth than feel nothing. 

Edited 4 hours ago by Repentant

[Repentant]

7 hours ago, ExpatInItaly said:

When was your last relationship OP, and how long did it last?

Just shy of two years (couple of weeks short), started back in October, 2019. 

Well, I guess this also depends on what one defines as a relationship. I've had two 6-month attempts since then as well - only sorta'-count them because we'd established exclusivity from early on in both occurrences.

[FredEire]

31 minutes ago, Repentant said:

Oh, but I do that! With certain things. I fully believe no human being has ever been or will ever be perfect, and I understand exactly what being an imperfect human being means. But not everything falls under "imperfection." Some things fall under "pure malice," and it's those things I just can't let pass by.

Offtopic, I used to be the exact opposite, I tried to let everything pass by and practiced non-judgement left, right and center, because I was raised to ignore my emotions, my empathy, and my needs. Lemme tell ya', once I managed to get rid of those chains and let loose everything I was keeping locked up, my entire world changed. I'd rather be furious while seeing the truth than feel nothing. 

Non-judgement is very, very different to bottling up your feelings. It's based on feeling but recognising that the sweeping negative conclusions you come to about yourself or others amd the effect that has on your psyche may not actually be proportional to the situation.

For example, if your friend of many years ends up scamming you out of money and then tries to gaslight you that YOU did something wrong (as unfortunately happened to me), it's going to bring up a lot of negative feelings that are pretty justified and deserve to be worked through and processed, as there was a genuine bond there and trust was betrayed and abused.

On the other hand if you go to McDonalds and the person at the counter is nice to you at first and then scowls when you ask for ketchup, its really a big nothing and the proportionate reaction is "huh weird, guess theyre having a bad day" and then go on with your meal and forget all about it. But if youre in a place where your self esteem is shaky enough, some people will internalise it and think "see, people are all the same, even the guy at the McDonalds counter hates me!" and start spiraling into negative self-talk.

My point is that the thing with this girl is more in the second camp in my opinion. It would be nice if the flirty energy translated into something further, but if it doesnt it really only merits a "Huh, oh well! Thats a shame" and then move on with your life. The fact that it provoked a whole load of thoughts about how you are "so done" etc tells me there is something else going on way beyond the encounter, and THAT's the real issue.

 

[Repentant]

14 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Non-judgement is very, very different to bottling up your feelings. It's based on feeling but recognising that the sweeping negative conclusions you come to about yourself or others amd the effect that has on your psyche may not actually be proportional to the situation.

For example, if your friend of many years ends up scamming you out of money and then tries to gaslight you that YOU did something wrong (as unfortunately happened to me), it's going to bring up a lot of negative feelings that are pretty justified and deserve to be worked through and processed, as there was a genuine bond there and trust was betrayed and abused.

On the other hand if you go to McDonalds and the person at the counter is nice to you at first and then scowls when you ask for ketchup, its really a big nothing and the proportionate reaction is "huh weird, guess theyre having a bad day" and then go on with your meal and forget all about it. But if youre in a place where your self esteem is shaky enough, some people will internalise it and think "see, people are all the same, even the guy at the McDonalds counter hates me!" and start spiraling into negative self-talk.

My point is that the thing with this girl is more in the second camp in my opinion. It would be nice if the flirty energy translated into something further, but if it doesnt it really only merits a "Huh, oh well! Thats a shame" and then move on with your life. The fact that it provoked a whole load of thoughts about how you are "so done" etc tells me there is something else going on way beyond the encounter, and THAT's the real issue.

 

Again you're focusing waaay too much on her =)) I genuinely have no hard feelings toward her, she flirted as "just a thing," I reached out, she was clearly disinterested, done! I have taken none of it personally, next time we'll meet randomly I'll drink a shot with her for the bother, and that's that! 

Edit: I do have a deep dislike of what ghosting indicates, but in this case it's really not my problem, so I don't really care...

Genuinely none of what has transpired within the last two pages of this thread has had anything to do with her, things started going partly offtopic when I lost my marbles at the thought that striking up a conversation without proposing a date within 5 minutes would have been enough to kill interest:)) And I'm not even denying that it's possible, it's just that, if it is possible, then it's even more ridiculous, and I wouldn't want to date the kind of people who'd do that. That's all! I actually would like to believe that most people really aren't that shallow and quick to draw baseless conclusions! 

Edited 3 hours ago by Repentant

[FredEire]

21 hours ago, Repentant said:

Fine, then I guess this whole thing isn't for me, because it sure as hell feels like a total mess. If you do too much too soon, it's bad. If you take your time, it's bad. If you do just enough, you find out you were barking up the wrong tree all along. It's just endless frustration with zero return on investment. Yep, think I'm done. 

 

8 minutes ago, Repentant said:

Again you're focusing waaay too much on her =)) I genuinely have no hard feelings toward her, she flirted as "just a thing," I reached out, she was clearly disinterested, done! I have taken none of it personally, next time we'll meet randomly I'll drink a shot with her for the bother, and that's that! 

Edit: I do have a deep dislike of what ghosting indicates, but in this case it's really not my problem, so I don't really care...

Genuinely none of what has transpired within the last two pages of this thread has had anything to do with her, things started going partly offtopic when I lost my marbles at the thought that striking up a conversation without proposing a date within 5 minutes would have been enough to kill interest:)) And I'm not even denying that it's possible, it's just that, if it is possible, then it's even more ridiculous, and I wouldn't want to date the kind of people who'd do that. That's all! I actually would like to believe that most people really aren't that shallow and quick to draw baseless conclusions! 

Haha ok man.

But if you look at the first post I quoted, there is a lot of underlying frustration in that.

All I'm saying is it may be worth sitting with yourself or a therapist and getting to the bottom of that rather than relying on and defending some "method" that only get you frustrated and arguing with people on the internet.

[Repentant]

4 minutes ago, FredEire said:

 

Haha ok man.

But if you look at the first post I quoted, there is a lot of underlying frustration in that.

All I'm saying is it may be worth sitting with yourself or a therapist and getting to the bottom of that rather than relying on and defending some "method" that only get you frustrated and arguing with people on the internet.

Well, I think you may have misunderstood me back then, as well. That's on me, because I tend to skip phrases when I'm revved up, but I have had and have no ill will or hard feelings toward absolutely anyone in this thread! 

I am 100% done with any and all methods! I am just going to do what feels natural and good for me. If it works, great, if not, bullet(s) dodged! Yes, this thread has pushed me into frustration, but it has done so in the sense that I have seen how much of a mess dating is in general, it's been min-maxed to hell and back, and I loathe min-maxing. It's the one surefire way of sucking all of the fun out of the game. So, yeah! I'll just do me, and if anyone else vibes, then that's cool!

Edited 3 hours ago by Repentant

[FredEire]

14 minutes ago, Repentant said:

Well, I think you may have misunderstood me back then, as well. That's on me, because I tend to skip phrases when I'm revved up, but I have had and have no ill will or hard feelings toward absolutely anyone in this thread! 

I am 100% done with any and all methods! I am just going to do what feels natural and good for me. If it works, great, if not, bullet(s) dodged! Yes, this thread has pushed me into frustration, but it has done so in the sense that I have seen how much of a mess dating is in general, it's been min-maxed to hell and back, and I loathe min-maxing. It's the one surefire way of sucking all of the fun out of the game. So, yeah! I'll just do me, and if anyone else vibes, then that's cool!

Well I would say you are looking very scientifically at something that doesn't work that way...

But anyway good luck to you.

[Repentant]

1 minute ago, FredEire said:

Well I would say you are looking very scientifically at something that doesn't work that way...

But anyway good luck to you.

That's exactly my point, I'm done with all of that!:)) Both the "wait x days before yadda-yadda," and the "text the next day and set up a date yadda-yadda" stuff! I'll wait however much I feel like waiting, and I'll set up a date whenever I feel like setting up a date! :))

Thank you, and nothing but the same to you as well!

[ExpatInItaly]

1 hour ago, Repentant said:

I have seen how much of a mess dating is in general,

You realize it's not that messy for many people though, right? 

There are just as many who have fun with it and remain relatively low-drama.  It's not a mess in general for everyone. 

[Repentant]

3 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

You realize it's not that messy for many people though, right? 

There are just as many who have fun with it and remain relatively low-drama.  It's not a mess in general for everyone. 

And more power to them, honestly! But, for me, it's a complete and utter mess. And, unfortunately, I can only live my own life:)) 

Again, points to the same conclusion: any and all methods are pointless other than doing whatever works best for me. I'm not looking to pad my numbers, I'm not looking to speedrun the entire spectrum of probability, my ultimate goal is finding a long-term partner with whom I can have a functional relationship, and who enriches my life as I do theirs. Simple as. Anything which comes short of that is whatever, water under the bridge! 

Now, where this whole dating thing also intersects with humanity's process of going absolutely Medieval on itself, that's a different story for a different time. That'll never not get me riled up.

[ExpatInItaly]

With all due respect, I think you are far too jaded to be dating right now anyway.

[Repentant]

Just now, ExpatInItaly said:

With all due respect, I think you are far too jaded to be dating right now anyway.

Oh, not at all! I just gotta find someone who's at least as jaded as I am! I am perfectly apt at compartmentalising, I am capable of separating vile societal tendencies from individual people, I don't judge EVERYBODY as being horrible, but I do judge as horrible those people who demonstrate themselves to be horrible! Same goes for everything else! I am angry, yes! I am frustrated, yes! But I know exactly what makes me angry, why I am frustrated, and I have no issues with keeping things in perspective.

[FredEire]

42 minutes ago, Repentant said:

Oh, not at all! I just gotta find someone who's at least as jaded as I am! I am perfectly apt at compartmentalising, I am capable of separating vile societal tendencies from individual people, I don't judge EVERYBODY as being horrible, but I do judge as horrible those people who demonstrate themselves to be horrible! Same goes for everything else! I am angry, yes! I am frustrated, yes! But I know exactly what makes me angry, why I am frustrated, and I have no issues with keeping things in perspective.

So who has been "horrible" in this situation? The girl in OP, the people in the thread giving advice that didn't align with your views?

"Horrible" is a pretty strong word, I now reserve such terms for people I run across who are deliberately nasty and manipulative, which thankfully isnt going to be too common.

The fact that you label anything in this scenario as "horrible" directly contradicts the last statement in bold.

[Repentant]

19 minutes ago, FredEire said:

So who has been "horrible" in this situation? The girl in OP, the people in the thread giving advice that didn't align with your views?

"Horrible" is a pretty strong word, I now reserve such terms for people I run across who are deliberately nasty and manipulative, which thankfully isnt going to be too common.

The fact that you label anything in this scenario as "horrible" directly contradicts the last statement in bold.

Again, finding out that losing any and all interest to the point of ghosting due to a couple of genuinely harmless texts is an actual thing which happens :)) Again, unrelated to the situation, I am 100% certain that wasn't the case IRL, but still! Shocking! :))

Well, that's your system of value, and that's fine! I have many, many things which I absolutely do consider horrible, selfishness and superficiality being among them. 

Yet again, not about the scenario, as that was clearly just her not having had the same interest I had from the start, related to the concept specified above - concept, not scenario. 

[FredEire]

11 minutes ago, Repentant said:

Again, finding out that losing any and all interest to the point of ghosting due to a couple of genuinely harmless texts is an actual thing which happens :)) Again, unrelated to the situation, I am 100% certain that wasn't the case IRL, but still! Shocking! :))

Well, that's your system of value, and that's fine! I have many, many things which I absolutely do consider horrible, selfishness and superficiality being among them. 

Yet again, not about the scenario, as that was clearly just her not having had the same interest I had from the start, related to the concept specified above - concept, not scenario. 

So deciding not to continue the conversation after a couple of vague follow up texts a week after meeting is horrible and selfish?

[Repentant]

11 minutes ago, FredEire said:

So deciding not to continue the conversation after a couple of vague follow up texts a week after meeting is horrible and selfish?

No, Jesus! =)) What did I just say, the concrete situation which took place has nothing to do with the concept I find horrible and selfish - completely losing interest because of two random texts / judging someone solely based on two texts. 

Haven't we already established that they're 100% not the same occurrence, because that hypothetical is not what happened in this case? =)) I genuinely don't get what's unclear:))