Not supporting wife when I believe she’s wrong - and her reaction

[BMI03]

Hello all. Haven’t been here in a while, and I guess that’s a good thing given I only come here when I am having issues.

My wife and I had a significant fight this past weekend. 

The story: We were at a concert and we were drinking, wife was pretty drunk. She’s a strong woman, and doesn’t like to be told what to do by anyone. As the concert ended we waited for the rush to go by us a bit, but were asked to get out of our seats and leave. Wife ignored. I did also, not because I wanted to, but when I saw that look in her eye she wanted to pick a fight. I’ve learned how to try to not be the recipient of her targeting in those moments. They came a second time they came back, then then a third, when she had it out with them. She was screaming they were not respectful, and accusing of racism. They threatened to call cops. Wife called their bluff and verbally fought with them….yelling, name calling, telling them to call the cops. Eventually after 2-3 minutes of yelling back and forth, we walked out, stopping to talk to several staff to try and log a complaint along the way. I was saddened if being honest, because I don’t know what instigates such defensive reactions in her in those situations. She was still hot headed for the walk to the hotel but it was entirely at the venue staff. 

Once at hotel, she called non-emergency police on them (they told her to log a complaint with the venue) and proceeded to talk about it with me. I kept quiet and listened until conversation drove it to discussion about my reaction. I was mostly silent standing behind her when she had the initial interaction with the person who told us to move and the one who said he would call the cops. I waited for a window to coax her to leave with me but she was busy doing her yelling. She didn’t see that I was, in certainly my own more calm fashion, asking the workers behind us to chill and let us progress out of the venue at our speed, and again once my wife eventually did move along, I stayed back and continued to share my thoughts with them in reaction to their sarcastically calling us a “Mature couple!”, and to the man who said he would call the cops to tell him he knew that was meaningless and escalatory because we would be gone by the time they came over. would that have been enough for her, no. But it wasn’t nothing either.

So at this point, she only believes that she had to push back on them alone, and that I don’t agree with what she did. To me the interaction was avoidable, so she is correct in my not approving of what she did. To a lesser degree I don’t think she knows that I did have my own engagements with them, but it feels like a moot point now. 

Moot because as I tried to explain my side, my wife, shifted to a tone of mockery. We have had fights, but this was different. She shifted from arguing to taunting tones like a sarcastic motherly “Oh, poor baby, are you sensitive?” to address several elements of my character and upbringing… “Oh, you are so logical and always thinking about the ‘right’ thing.”, “Oh your small town upbringing that everyone is a good person.”, “Oh, you’re sensitive?”, interrupting me with another mocking each time I tried to talk. She was mocking and taunting me about characteristics of me, that I had thought had served me quite fine in my life, and which I thought she respected and admired in me.

It shattered me. It stung. 

Two times trying to respond, she just upped the sarcastic mocking as I sat there taking it, shocked, unsure on how to even react as this was so new. Then I just got up, calmly said “I’m just going to leave”, and walked away.

What I am trying to reflect upon is:

(1) am I wrong here (at least in part)? Should it be the case that whether I believe in the justification of the escalation or not, she’s my wife and I need to defend her? I am now starting to think ya, maybe it is. Maybe I should engage in the aggression simply because she is involved, even if I believe she’s in the wrong. 

(2) Can a woman (with alcohol mind you) say such negative things about your character without meaning it truly in her heart to some extent? We have argued before, and on rare occasions she has sailed things in an ‘attack’ fashion that she’s referred before, but they have been mostly obviously hollow and meaningless. This time they felt charged, with a visceral distain, and a true desire to hurt me with the world. 

I don’t want my own analytical thinking mindset to mistakingly default to the fact she shouldn’t have done what she did, and that’s it. I really really want to hear about the part I can control and own, in seeing what changes I need to consider about myself to make this work. 

Thank you all. Sorry for the length

[glows]

That is not a strong woman. She’s an abusive drunk.period.  If you’re so different why are you still married to her? Ofc not you don’t have to do anything against your morals. The problem is you’re still married to someone so fundamentally different from you and drinks with horrible outcomes. I didn’t read your other threads or past posts but I’m assuming there’s a ton of resentment and marital issues that go a lot deeper than this incident. You just have to put your foot down and ask yourself whether you can be married to someone who drinks like this and someone who is abusive. You will not change her.

 

[BMI03]

4 hours ago, glows said:

That is not a strong woman. She’s an abusive drunk.period.  If you’re so different why are you still married to her? Ofc not you don’t have to do anything against your morals. The problem is you’re still married to someone so fundamentally different from you and drinks with horrible outcomes. I didn’t read your other threads or past posts but I’m assuming there’s a ton of resentment and marital issues that go a lot deeper than this incident. You just have to put your foot down and ask yourself whether you can be married to someone who drinks like this and someone who is abusive. You will not change her.

 

Thanks very much for your input. 

The thing is, drinking is not really part of the issue. We don’t heavy-drink much at all, and the light drinking or other cases of heavy drinking are not necessarily met with issue. Unfortunately, that means the temper issues are quite possible and way more prevalent sober.

The issues are really less thank even about me  I just happen to be the closest target sometimes. She has PTSD, Depression, Anxiety. She grew up in a 10 year civil war, as a lone child to a father who abandoned her and a single mother who died when she was in early 20s, and an extended family that stole from her. She as self-aware enough to recognize this, though the recognition of it all likely sitting around PTSD is new. She’s has medication for depression and anxiety. I wonder sometimes if bi-polar is there as well. She’s a physician herself and pretty open to her diagnosis, but has been reluctant to use psychologists, until she reached some career milestones because of the stigma it could have in her industry.

To be honest, as rough as it gets sometimes, it’s not frequent, and ‘for better or for worse’ to me means not stepping away because it sometimes gets hard. But, hard is hard, so I am here. 

One of the triggers for her is when someone tells her authoritatively to do something. I assume this comes from a need to bring control to a life that has felt out of control for some time. She digs in. She seals out the fight in such cases and digs in to escalate and fight for what in her mind is ‘right’ and ‘just’, Independant upon whether the situation could be a simple misunderstanding, or easily diffused without issues. In those moments, I have a hard time ‘supporting my woman’ simply because my typical frame of mind is that you can avoid such conflicts through empathy and kindness. Now, I am likely frustratingly on the other end of the spectrum….not that I am conflict avoidant, but I am first scanning for all the things that could make the other party ‘right’ in their mind before engaging. I only escalate when I have exhausted those reasons or excuses. So we are very different this way.

The last few days went well because we both sort of avoided it since the next day. Last night she asked why I was quiet and that’s when I brought this up. 

So right now I’m still hurt by what she said, and she’s still hurt she needs to ‘defend herself alone as always.’

  

 

[Scarlett321]

6 hours ago, BMI03 said:

Hello all. Haven’t been here in a while, and I guess that’s a good thing given I only come here when I am having issues.

My wife and I had a significant fight this past weekend. 

The story: We were at a concert and we were drinking, wife was pretty drunk. She’s a strong woman, and doesn’t like to be told what to do by anyone. As the concert ended we waited for the rush to go by us a bit, but were asked to get out of our seats and leave. Wife ignored. I did also, not because I wanted to, but when I saw that look in her eye she wanted to pick a fight. I’ve learned how to try to not be the recipient of her targeting in those moments. They came a second time they came back, then then a third, when she had it out with them. She was screaming they were not respectful, and accusing of racism. They threatened to call cops. Wife called their bluff and verbally fought with them….yelling, name calling, telling them to call the cops. Eventually after 2-3 minutes of yelling back and forth, we walked out, stopping to talk to several staff to try and log a complaint along the way. I was saddened if being honest, because I don’t know what instigates such defensive reactions in her in those situations. She was still hot headed for the walk to the hotel but it was entirely at the venue staff. 

Once at hotel, she called non-emergency police on them (they told her to log a complaint with the venue) and proceeded to talk about it with me. I kept quiet and listened until conversation drove it to discussion about my reaction. I was mostly silent standing behind her when she had the initial interaction with the person who told us to move and the one who said he would call the cops. I waited for a window to coax her to leave with me but she was busy doing her yelling. She didn’t see that I was, in certainly my own more calm fashion, asking the workers behind us to chill and let us progress out of the venue at our speed, and again once my wife eventually did move along, I stayed back and continued to share my thoughts with them in reaction to their sarcastically calling us a “Mature couple!”, and to the man who said he would call the cops to tell him he knew that was meaningless and escalatory because we would be gone by the time they came over. would that have been enough for her, no. But it wasn’t nothing either.

So at this point, she only believes that she had to push back on them alone, and that I don’t agree with what she did. To me the interaction was avoidable, so she is correct in my not approving of what she did. To a lesser degree I don’t think she knows that I did have my own engagements with them, but it feels like a moot point now. 

Moot because as I tried to explain my side, my wife, shifted to a tone of mockery. We have had fights, but this was different. She shifted from arguing to taunting tones like a sarcastic motherly “Oh, poor baby, are you sensitive?” to address several elements of my character and upbringing… “Oh, you are so logical and always thinking about the ‘right’ thing.”, “Oh your small town upbringing that everyone is a good person.”, “Oh, you’re sensitive?”, interrupting me with another mocking each time I tried to talk. She was mocking and taunting me about characteristics of me, that I had thought had served me quite fine in my life, and which I thought she respected and admired in me.

It shattered me. It stung. 

Two times trying to respond, she just upped the sarcastic mocking as I sat there taking it, shocked, unsure on how to even react as this was so new. Then I just got up, calmly said “I’m just going to leave”, and walked away.

What I am trying to reflect upon is:

(1) am I wrong here (at least in part)? Should it be the case that whether I believe in the justification of the escalation or not, she’s my wife and I need to defend her? I am now starting to think ya, maybe it is. Maybe I should engage in the aggression simply because she is involved, even if I believe she’s in the wrong. 

(2) Can a woman (with alcohol mind you) say such negative things about your character without meaning it truly in her heart to some extent? We have argued before, and on rare occasions she has sailed things in an ‘attack’ fashion that she’s referred before, but they have been mostly obviously hollow and meaningless. This time they felt charged, with a visceral distain, and a true desire to hurt me with the world. 

I don’t want my own analytical thinking mindset to mistakingly default to the fact she shouldn’t have done what she did, and that’s it. I really really want to hear about the part I can control and own, in seeing what changes I need to consider about myself to make this work. 

Thank you all. Sorry for the length

Hey man, really appreciate how open and self-aware you were in sharing this — that takes a lot. Honestly, it sounds like you handled yourself with a lot of restraint in a really volatile situation. You weren’t wrong for not escalating things; trying to de-escalate is usually the mature move, especially when alcohol and emotions are high.

As for what she said, people can definitely say hurtful things when drunk or angry that they don’t fully mean, but that doesn’t make it okay or easy to shake off. It might be worth waiting until things cool down, then having a calm talk about how those words affected you and what support looks like for both of you in tough moments. You sound like someone trying hard to do the right thing, don’t lose that.

[BMI03]

1 hour ago, Scarlett321 said:

Hey man, really appreciate how open and self-aware you were in sharing this — that takes a lot. Honestly, it sounds like you handled yourself with a lot of restraint in a really volatile situation. You weren’t wrong for not escalating things; trying to de-escalate is usually the mature move, especially when alcohol and emotions are high.

As for what she said, people can definitely say hurtful things when drunk or angry that they don’t fully mean, but that doesn’t make it okay or easy to shake off. It might be worth waiting until things cool down, then having a calm talk about how those words affected you and what support looks like for both of you in tough moments. You sound like someone trying hard to do the right thing, don’t lose that.

Thanks for the note. I really appreciate it. 

I am pretty self-aware and spend a lot of time analyzing human behavior, and why people do the things they do. It's a blessing and a curse. On one hand, I think it brings me great peace in my life to believe that (most) everyone is the 'good-guy' in their own mind, having justifications in their actions that are just invisible (and perhaps in disagreement to) to the rest of us. Someone cutting me off blatantly in traffic could be an 'a**-hole' in my experience, but there is an infinity of reasons they may have been humbly justified in their mind....sick parent in hospital breathing last breath; fearful of a following car; nervous driver, etc. Hell, it may even be that they are an 'a**-hole', but it's because they had a rough upbringing with an absent father. Who knows! The point being that...I don't know, and so why frustrate my own state of mind with assumptions of being wronged by a random "a**-hole' when my default setting can just as easily be that there was likely some circumstance that made that decision to cut me off reasonable to that person. 

In my own mind, this makes me grounded, in control of my emotions. At peace. But for someone like her who will notably endure pain and suffering at her own (and maybe my) expense, and an adjustment of her own initial intended outcomes in order to achieve a 'right' and 'just' result, my approach looks like being a pushover. A weakness. I have no issue with conflict....I use to physically fight quite often, in sport, and in bars...but I am not much for illogical argumentative back and forth. I am a somewhat emotionless thinker and quite heavy to the logical end of the spectrum. But that has weaknesses in such a case where my wife just wants to feel loved by knowing I have her back....even if I think she's wrong.

I don't know...it's complicated, and putting my foundations in question. How do I give her the loving support she needs without compromising my ideals and character?

 

 

[ExpatInItaly]

Does she ever take accouontability for her inappropriate behaviour? 

[flitzanu]

your wife sounds unbearable and exhausting.  and i hate to say, but if you weren't trying to drag her away and apologizing to the venue, then that's nearly enabling the behavior.  i would be disgustingly embarassed if that was my wife.

secondly, you're both in the wrong here if the venue asked you to leave, and you refused.  it's their job, and their venue, and arguing over that is just unnecessary and uncouth.  and the fact that this immediately went to blaming it as an issue of race just makes it sound even more selfish and entitled, because i'm sure they told literally every single person that they needed to leave and did not single out you two.

 

[glows]

7 hours ago, BMI03 said:

Thanks very much for your input. 

The thing is, drinking is not really part of the issue. We don’t heavy-drink much at all, and the light drinking or other cases of heavy drinking are not necessarily met with issue. Unfortunately, that means the temper issues are quite possible and way more prevalent sober.

The issues are really less thank even about me  I just happen to be the closest target sometimes. She has PTSD, Depression, Anxiety. She grew up in a 10 year civil war, as a lone child to a father who abandoned her and a single mother who died when she was in early 20s, and an extended family that stole from her. She as self-aware enough to recognize this, though the recognition of it all likely sitting around PTSD is new. She’s has medication for depression and anxiety. I wonder sometimes if bi-polar is there as well. She’s a physician herself and pretty open to her diagnosis, but has been reluctant to use psychologists, until she reached some career milestones because of the stigma it could have in her industry.

To be honest, as rough as it gets sometimes, it’s not frequent, and ‘for better or for worse’ to me means not stepping away because it sometimes gets hard. But, hard is hard, so I am here. 

One of the triggers for her is when someone tells her authoritatively to do something. I assume this comes from a need to bring control to a life that has felt out of control for some time. She digs in. She seals out the fight in such cases and digs in to escalate and fight for what in her mind is ‘right’ and ‘just’, Independant upon whether the situation could be a simple misunderstanding, or easily diffused without issues. In those moments, I have a hard time ‘supporting my woman’ simply because my typical frame of mind is that you can avoid such conflicts through empathy and kindness. Now, I am likely frustratingly on the other end of the spectrum….not that I am conflict avoidant, but I am first scanning for all the things that could make the other party ‘right’ in their mind before engaging. I only escalate when I have exhausted those reasons or excuses. So we are very different this way.

The last few days went well because we both sort of avoided it since the next day. Last night she asked why I was quiet and that’s when I brought this up. 

So right now I’m still hurt by what she said, and she’s still hurt she needs to ‘defend herself alone as always.’

  

 

She seems psychotic tbh. We’re gifted a brain to use it not to have a knee jerk reaction to everything and it’s obvious how resentful she is of you bc you irritate her and reinforce how unhinged she is. You’re just enabling her behaviour staying married to her and being yourself is an irritant. If you’re not willing to move on and still want to stay in the marriage stop getting involved in her rage induced and abusive reactions. This means stop enabling. Stop siding with passerby’s and third parties. Do not even engage. There’s something dysfunctional about you too if you’re drawn to this or feel compelled to enable her.

[BMI03]

34 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

Does she ever take accouontability for her inappropriate behaviour? 

There are layers to that, but in short, yes.

She is a hot-tempered Latina, and there are two phases to her reactions to things. (1) the immediate emotional, all guns-a-blazing reaction, and (2) the 1-day-later, reflective thought out reaction. 

Typically in that phase 2, there is a level of apology, whether it be fully, or at least in part. What I mean is that she often in that phase 2 has taken the time to think about my side of things, and can understand it, even if she continues to disagree with some of the fundamentals. Other times, she may be calmer, but still sticks to her prioritization of 'right' and 'just' over outcomes.

Here's an example of what I mean by 'right' or 'just' over outcomes. I have an ex wife, and a daughter, who we share custody over. If I want time with her that it outside the schedule for a special event, my ex may respond with a 'yes-but...' with some criteria that's required (ie part of the time, has to be home by a specific time, etc.). It's a subtle power-play on her side to keep a level of control. I get it, and I don't mind. It's the price to pay to achieve the outcome I want...access to my daughter for off-schedule time. My wife takes offense to this power-play on my behalf, and thinks I am being run over. For me the outcome is priority 1, and I will compromise to achieve it. To her, the outcome isn't worth it if she or I need to experience what she sees as disrespect to achieve it. Her answer would be to respond that the '...but...' is unacceptable, cancel the special event, and reject the next similar request that comes from my ex for her to have off-schedule time. For her, maintaining the power is more important to the outcome.

For the longest time I thought she was immaturely short sighted in seeing that she was cutting off her nose to spite her face. What I see now is that it's not a lack of insight at all. It's in fact a very willing and deliberate prioritization such that she will happily sacrifice the original goal to maintain control. It's completely counter to my wiliness to negotiate and play by the rules of the game. 

So yes, she does take responsibility at the end of the day for hurt feelings she may have caused, but she doesn't compromise on her feeling that her prioritization is 'right' in her eyes, and otherwise is to show weakness. That's why in this case, the manner in which she spoke to me about things especially hurt. We agree and acknowledge our differences, our disagreement with the others point of view on this. We even acknowledge that the other's way of being has benefits in particular situations. But this is the first time where I think we both believe each other's fundamental core is such that it risks making the other feel unloved.

I have sent some emails out today to some psychologists as well. I think I really need to dig into this deeper. I don't feel wrong in my way of thinking and action, but I do feel there is something missing in it if my wife feels unloved and supported. Likewise, I am sure she also feels right and justified in her own mind, and hopeful she also appreciates the doubt it's given me in her ability to love me.

Thanks again. More opinions and thoughts always helpful.

 

 

 

 

 

[BMI03]

13 minutes ago, flitzanu said:

your wife sounds unbearable and exhausting.  and i hate to say, but if you weren't trying to drag her away and apologizing to the venue, then that's nearly enabling the behavior.  i would be disgustingly embarassed if that was my wife.

secondly, you're both in the wrong here if the venue asked you to leave, and you refused.  it's their job, and their venue, and arguing over that is just unnecessary and uncouth.  and the fact that this immediately went to blaming it as an issue of race just makes it sound even more selfish and entitled, because i'm sure they told literally every single person that they needed to leave and did not single out you two.

 

Yep, no disagreement here. I was embarrassed. I would put my actions in the middle...trying to interject to coax her to leave, while attempting to build time from the venue staff through a more calm and level headed discussion.  I wasn't dragging her out....right or wrong, that's where this has brought me....to a place where I don't want to be the unfortunate target of her anger either so I tread carefully in these moments. And nor was I aggressively arguing with venue staff....they are just doing their job. I was asking for their patience while I worked on moving her forward, and I did ask one of them to cool it when he made escalating comments. I was more middle, which is the ugly feeling I have now.

Without acting on this point, I do think they were pretty loud and aggressive in their approach, but I don't want to judge...they are just workers following orders. No one refused to leave...we were just not moving at the pace they thought was warranted. Others were hanging around and we were waiting for the crunch of the crowd to move through first to avoid the shoulder to shoulder squeeze. So they didn't really have to tell anyone else, let alone literally say it to them all at least in our vicinity, but overall yes for sure everyone knew it was time to go. 

And I also agree. The race call came out of nowhere, and not my opinion at all on what was happening. To me, it was just some young workers with a job to do, perhaps at worst a bit overzealous in getting their job done. Not at all warranting the exchange. I had never heard her make such an accusation before, and I don't believe it was the case here. I explained back at the hotel that I cannot, as hard I may try, put myself in her shoes from the perspective of being latina, but that to me, it felt like overzealous venue workers at worst doing their job. It's my opinion, and it angered her quite a bit. 

I agree with your words...I think it was entitled, selfish, reckless, and embarrassing. In my opinion it put her own need to be right against the benefits of her family. Yelling back at the security who threatened to call the police to "Do it! Do it!" was just as unwarranted as his threat to do so (prior to that comment my wife wasn't worked up, though I did have that sense she was looking for a fight). As a physician, a criminal record isn't going to work well for her license, so I am with you. 

So how do I reconcile agreeing with most everything you said, with still loving her as my wife, and still having committed to work through things with her in good times and in bad. I don't take that lightly. I undervalued marriage once before and so when I married her I made this commitment to her all in. At that time, there may have been surface level elements of this, but they never sparked the way they did until after our son was born 7 years ago. I don't know if that triggered more of a fear of lack of control of life or what, but at the end of the day I continue to appreciate your opinions.

Thanks.

[BMI03]

29 minutes ago, glows said:

She seems psychotic tbh. We’re gifted a brain to use it not to have a knee jerk reaction to everything and it’s obvious how resentful she is of you bc you irritate her and reinforce how unhinged she is. You’re just enabling her behaviour staying married to her and being yourself is an irritant. If you’re not willing to move on and still want to stay in the marriage stop getting involved in her rage induced and abusive reactions. This means stop enabling. Stop siding with passerby’s and third parties. Do not even engage. There’s something dysfunctional about you too if you’re drawn to this or feel compelled to enable her.

Thanks for this. 

And yes, until this time, this fundamental difference has been accepted as a "I'll do me, you do you". We need a cool head to achieve an outcome we cannot compromise on....I tell her to stay home and not come watch the discussion. We need a discount on a rental because they verbally promised us something that isn't there...she's up to bat and I'll stay in the car (I would refrain from even arguing if I couldn't find said thing in the contract promising it). For the vast majority of our lives, we can capitalize on the differences and benefit from them. 

I could never embrace her way of operating, and she likewise could never embrace mine. But they both had their value. Maybe that's just it...that this particular incident was uber-magnified because of the drinking. Like I said, there are other such cases of disagreements over things, and awkward moments she fights for what she thinks is right, but nothing that has ever been so heavy as this, with such a fall out. So when I said it's not alcohol dependent, perhaps the scale of it in this case was. 

[glows]

16 minutes ago, BMI03 said:

Thanks for this. 

And yes, until this time, this fundamental difference has been accepted as a "I'll do me, you do you". We need a cool head to achieve an outcome we cannot compromise on....I tell her to stay home and not come watch the discussion. We need a discount on a rental because they verbally promised us something that isn't there...she's up to bat and I'll stay in the car (I would refrain from even arguing if I couldn't find said thing in the contract promising it). For the vast majority of our lives, we can capitalize on the differences and benefit from them. 

I could never embrace her way of operating, and she likewise could never embrace mine. But they both had their value. Maybe that's just it...that this particular incident was uber-magnified because of the drinking. Like I said, there are other such cases of disagreements over things, and awkward moments she fights for what she thinks is right, but nothing that has ever been so heavy as this, with such a fall out. So when I said it's not alcohol dependent, perhaps the scale of it in this case was. 

It’s good you recognize the role alcohol played in this scenario. If you know she’s going to drink don’t go at all. Alcohol seems to have an impact in her lack of filter and destroys your memories and marriage. As a physician it’s unacceptable that she’s drinking in the first place knowing the resulting outcome of her behaviour. Is she an alcoholic? Are you? Why not NOT drink at all. This is on her to realize that alcohol is a problem in addition to her mental state.

you did say that you were involved in placating or talking to the third parties. Just leave and tell her you’re not getting involved in anything having to do with her when she’s drinking, period.

[BMI03]

5 minutes ago, glows said:

It’s good you recognize the role alcohol played in this scenario. If you know she’s going to drink don’t go at all. Alcohol seems to have an impact in her lack of filter and destroys your memories and marriage. As a physician it’s unacceptable that she’s drinking in the first place knowing the resulting outcome of her behaviour. Is she an alcoholic? Are you? Why not NOT drink at all. This is on her to realize that alcohol is a problem in addition to her mental state.

you did say that you were involved in placating or talking to the third parties. Just leave and tell her you’re not getting involved in anything having to do with her when she’s drinking, period.

We typically have a glass of wine or two on the weekend, or a glass of scotch when work warrants it. So 99.9% of the time it's casual drinking and no negative results. In this particular concert we both had a fair bit to drink, so it definitely contributed to the trigger. But there are two layers here. One, the event that took place itself, and two, the fall out conversation. The alcohol was a contributing factor to the event, as is her core beliefs. The question that lingers in my mind from the fallout discussion is, what's true...that she as a contempt for the character qualities as she stated that night? Or, she appreciates those qualities, and it was her being hurt that was speaking.

Also, we could avoid drinking the rest of our lives and I don't think that addresses the fundamental differences in core operating model we both have with life. I think that's where I need to further investigate...there will be other (less charged with alcohol removed) and if not supporting her makes her feel unloved, then there is still a gap to close.

It's like your buddies in high school. For some reason in that context, I could back them up. One friend among your friend group makes a loud obnoxious drunk yell at another group of guys....they come over to talk s***...you back your buddy up. You know he's wrong, but you step up and take some licks and give some, because he's your buddy. I have been there, and it feels normal. So why didn't I feel I could do that with my wife? What's different? The scale? The level of 'wrongness' I felt about this particular situation? I don't know. 

 

 

[ShyViolet]

When someone behaves like this, I don't think it's your job to blindly take her side just because she's your wife.  The way she behaves is unacceptable.  Honestly I don't know how you can stand to be with someone like this.  If she doesn't make a serious commitment to work on this and reign in this behavior, I think any rational person would be rethinking this marriage.  

A lot of people have their struggles and difficult backgrounds.  Throwing tantrums, screaming at people, being verbally abusive to people for no good reason, there is no excuse for that.

[BMI03]

14 minutes ago, ShyViolet said:

When someone behaves like this, I don't think it's your job to blindly take her side just because she's your wife.  The way she behaves is unacceptable.  Honestly I don't know how you can stand to be with someone like this.  If she doesn't make a serious commitment to work on this and reign in this behavior, I think any rational person would be rethinking this marriage.  

A lot of people have their struggles and difficult backgrounds.  Throwing tantrums, screaming at people, being verbally abusive to people for no good reason, there is no excuse for that.

I hear ya. Best I can figure is that it is perhaps not really any different than my example of being cut off in traffic by an "a**-hole" who I may forgive because he may have any number of reasons for being that way. My wife has flaws, and this particular one of picking a fight when she feels she's been treated unfairly, is one of them. But, is it a willing decision she consciously makes every time because she likes drama and chaos? I don't believe so.

Like I mentioned, she grew up a single child to a single mom after her father split the country. The first 10 years of her life were gunfire around her, soldiers running through her house and over her roof, snipers outside, and bodies hanging from trees along the walk to school. In that she had to still do school, and her mother still worked (also a physician). Her mom would leave for days at a time treating civilians hurt in the war, leaving her with grandma and aunt who manipulated her when her mother died to steal any assets she was left while she was in a fog of loss. In post-war life she encountered guns and worst-of-the-worst gangs first hand, and has seen death and despair there too. Her most serious relationship here ended when her boyfriend of five years started physically abusing her, and she left.

Through all that, she was able to go heads down to complete her medical degree, survive some direct gang violence that left others passed, move to Canada to learn English and transition her medical license through an unforgiving process, and now practice as a physician here. She's injured. No doubt about it. Everyone she's loved has been taken from or left her. That's going to come with some serious wounds. Wounds she has visibility of, but for which I don't think she grasps the depths of. They have to be deep.

I am not attempting to be white knight here either to be clear. I humbly respect her resilience, and while questionable at times, her emotional fortitude to have not given up. She's endured a lot, and when she loves she loves hard. She is savagely defensive of others she loves, and marginalized groups in society as much as herself, and puts thousands of personal hours into initiatives that make the world a better place. 

I share all this because I think it's all too easy on this forum at times to jump to "leave her", "end it", etc. People are complex, and we are all products of the nature and environment from which we developed, and in many ways had little control over. I thought long and hard about the commitment I was making to marry this woman. While things may have evolved in this regard, it is no where near where I would ever consider leaving her. I want to work on what's hard, to protect the 99.9 percent of our time together than is wonderful.

Thanks all again.

[basil67]

1 hour ago, BMI03 said:

It's like your buddies in high school. For some reason in that context, I could back them up. One friend among your friend group makes a loud obnoxious drunk yell at another group of guys....they come over to talk s***...you back your buddy up. You know he's wrong, but you step up and take some licks and give some, because he's your buddy. I have been there, and it feels normal. So why didn't I feel I could do that with my wife? What's different? The scale? The level of 'wrongness' I felt about this particular situation? I don't know. 

You might have done this in highschool when you were young and dumb, but kindly I hope that you wouldn't do this now.   Being a good man isn't about getting into fights to back up a knucklehead mate - it's about dragging him away from the trouble he creates.  And also calling out apologies as you're departing so that nobody gets hurt.  

With regards to your wife, if she's worst when she's drinking, then changing your joint lifestyle is step one.   Further, she could do with therapy, partially to deal with her past and with a fiew to anger management. 

[ShyViolet]

1 hour ago, BMI03 said:

I While things may have evolved in this regard, it is no where near where I would ever consider leaving her. I want to work on what's hard, to protect the 99.9 percent of our time together than is wonderful.

Ok well my question is, does she truly acknowledge that there's a problem?  And what is she doing to work on this and change her behavior?

[Sanch62]

Your wife is abusive and void of self-control. That's the most dangerous combo for anyone within range of her, especially for you. Attempting to 'support' this does her no favors; it's enabling, and it's the opposite of helpful to her.

Whether this kind of episode has happened once or repeatedly, forget 'red flag,' it's your giant neon sign that wife needs psychiatric help. If she refuses to allow you to help her get it, a reasonable course would be to leave and make returning conditional on a psychiatric evaluation and a treatment plan that she upholds.

A physician, of all people, has seen how quickly people's lives can be taken or irrevocably harmed on the turn of a second, whether it be from road rage or any other form of rage. She is positioned to make a victim out of one of her vulnerable patients or anyone else unfortunate enough to be near her next episode.

You can rationalize this with all the word salad you wish; it won't change the reality, and I'm very sorry. I'd give it to her straight and let the chips fall.

[glows]

Well everyone has their issues but if you so strongly feel this one alcohol induced rage filled incident is mostly a one off then that’s your call bc as you say the other 99% of times you’re together it’s going great. I don’t know why this bothers you so much then or why you feel you have to “investigate” further or figure out in therapy on your own how to support her. She is who she is and you’re who you are so why are you so insecure about it? She’s probably agitated and irritated by your need to over analyze everything whereas things don’t require that kind of analysis. I’d daresay she’s just pissed that you just lack confidence in general. You don’t agree with her? So what? You don’t agree. It doesn’t necessarily mean the end of a marriage but she does need to respect that you simply disagree with her reactions and opinions at times. 

Regarding the school analogy and the rude friend you’re not a bunch of kids anymore. You’re expected to grow up and act with more maturity and recognition that your actions and behaviours have consequences. You disagree with her and if you want to stay together respecting those differences are going to be key

[Els]

Yeah wow she was WAY out of line, and if she makes a habit of behaving like that, I would be having serious doubts about the relationship if I were you. 

That being said, in response to your general question (in the thread title), IMO there's a middle ground. So for instance if I was in that situation with my husband and I felt like staff was specifically or inappropriately targeting us (which has happened before), I would politely point out that there were plenty of other people that weren't being asked to move. And even if my husband thinks I shouldn't do that, I'd appreciate him minding his own business and letting me choose my own battles. I wouldn't shout or scream, obviously, but I would voice my opinion and probably file a complaint.

Again, obviously the caveat for this is that the person should be capable of holding a conversation like an adult, and not behave in a completely abusive and maniacal fashion. So in your wife's case, it doesn't apply, but in general I do think that not EVERYTHING that one disagrees with needs to be acted upon.

 

Edited 16 hours ago by Els

[ShyViolet]

3 hours ago, BMI03 said:

Like I mentioned, she grew up a single child to a single mom after her father split the country. The first 10 years of her life were gunfire around her, soldiers running through her house and over her roof, snipers outside, and bodies hanging from trees along the walk to school. In that she had to still do school, and her mother still worked (also a physician). Her mom would leave for days at a time treating civilians hurt in the war, leaving her with grandma and aunt who manipulated her when her mother died to steal any assets she was left while she was in a fog of loss. In post-war life she encountered guns and worst-of-the-worst gangs first hand, and has seen death and despair there too. Her most serious relationship here ended when her boyfriend of five years started physically abusing her, and she left.

You're making a lot of excuses for her.

I'm sorry that she has a traumatic past, I really am, but that doesn't justify the current behavior.  They are two separate things.

[BMI03]

36 minutes ago, ShyViolet said:

You're making a lot of excuses for her.

I'm sorry that she has a traumatic past, I really am, but that doesn't justify the current behavior.  They are two separate things.

Totally agree. Like I said in my earlier post, my mind always goes to understanding cause and effect. That desire to understand ‘why’ is sometimes mistook by some as looking for an excuse. I am not. It doesn’t excuse it. It was plain old inappropriate as I have stated. What that explanation is, is an explanation to why I continue to stay despite her inappropriate behavior…because I understand the life sequences that have brought her here.
 

She. Has started the path with her first psychologist appointment. It maybtake a few to find someone aligned correctly for her but I’m happy to see that. 
 

thanks again

[Lotsgoingon]

Doesn't matter her background. We don't get to use excuses when we're married. She has to get help for her anger and alcoholism and her self-destructive rage. 

PERIOD!

You're afraid of her. That's no marriage. You don't trust her. It's like she's a misbehaving child. 

The longer you've stayed with her, the more your expectations have been ruined, destroyed--you have zero expectation for her. Police? Drunken shouting at the end of a concert when people are supposed to leave?

No, she's not the problem. Your toleration of her chaos is the problem. YOU are the one who needs to get to a psychologist in order to get yourself out of this relationship. Not figure out anything. Just to get out!

You’re tied to a bank robber and trying to get the bank robber to therapy. No, the question is how to get you away from the bank robber! 

 

[ExpatInItaly]

If this woman doesn't actually acknowledge there is a big problem with her behaviour, then all the efforrts by you to understand and support her mean jack squat. 

 

[Scarlett321]

On 10/8/2025 at 10:15 AM, BMI03 said:

Hello all. Haven’t been here in a while, and I guess that’s a good thing given I only come here when I am having issues.

My wife and I had a significant fight this past weekend. 

The story: We were at a concert and we were drinking, wife was pretty drunk. She’s a strong woman, and doesn’t like to be told what to do by anyone. As the concert ended we waited for the rush to go by us a bit, but were asked to get out of our seats and leave. Wife ignored. I did also, not because I wanted to, but when I saw that look in her eye she wanted to pick a fight. I’ve learned how to try to not be the recipient of her targeting in those moments. They came a second time they came back, then then a third, when she had it out with them. She was screaming they were not respectful, and accusing of racism. They threatened to call cops. Wife called their bluff and verbally fought with them….yelling, name calling, telling them to call the cops. Eventually after 2-3 minutes of yelling back and forth, we walked out, stopping to talk to several staff to try and log a complaint along the way. I was saddened if being honest, because I don’t know what instigates such defensive reactions in her in those situations. She was still hot headed for the walk to the hotel but it was entirely at the venue staff. 

Once at hotel, she called non-emergency police on them (they told her to log a complaint with the venue) and proceeded to talk about it with me. I kept quiet and listened until conversation drove it to discussion about my reaction. I was mostly silent standing behind her when she had the initial interaction with the person who told us to move and the one who said he would call the cops. I waited for a window to coax her to leave with me but she was busy doing her yelling. She didn’t see that I was, in certainly my own more calm fashion, asking the workers behind us to chill and let us progress out of the venue at our speed, and again once my wife eventually did move along, I stayed back and continued to share my thoughts with them in reaction to their sarcastically calling us a “Mature couple!”, and to the man who said he would call the cops to tell him he knew that was meaningless and escalatory because we would be gone by the time they came over. would that have been enough for her, no. But it wasn’t nothing either.

So at this point, she only believes that she had to push back on them alone, and that I don’t agree with what she did. To me the interaction was avoidable, so she is correct in my not approving of what she did. To a lesser degree I don’t think she knows that I did have my own engagements with them, but it feels like a moot point now. 

Moot because as I tried to explain my side, my wife, shifted to a tone of mockery. We have had fights, but this was different. She shifted from arguing to taunting tones like a sarcastic motherly “Oh, poor baby, are you sensitive?” to address several elements of my character and upbringing… “Oh, you are so logical and always thinking about the ‘right’ thing.”, “Oh your small town upbringing that everyone is a good person.”, “Oh, you’re sensitive?”, interrupting me with another mocking each time I tried to talk. She was mocking and taunting me about characteristics of me, that I had thought had served me quite fine in my life, and which I thought she respected and admired in me.

It shattered me. It stung. 

Two times trying to respond, she just upped the sarcastic mocking as I sat there taking it, shocked, unsure on how to even react as this was so new. Then I just got up, calmly said “I’m just going to leave”, and walked away.

What I am trying to reflect upon is:

(1) am I wrong here (at least in part)? Should it be the case that whether I believe in the justification of the escalation or not, she’s my wife and I need to defend her? I am now starting to think ya, maybe it is. Maybe I should engage in the aggression simply because she is involved, even if I believe she’s in the wrong. 

(2) Can a woman (with alcohol mind you) say such negative things about your character without meaning it truly in her heart to some extent? We have argued before, and on rare occasions she has sailed things in an ‘attack’ fashion that she’s referred before, but they have been mostly obviously hollow and meaningless. This time they felt charged, with a visceral distain, and a true desire to hurt me with the world. 

I don’t want my own analytical thinking mindset to mistakingly default to the fact she shouldn’t have done what she did, and that’s it. I really really want to hear about the part I can control and own, in seeing what changes I need to consider about myself to make this work. 

Thank you all. Sorry for the length

That sounds really tough, you handled it with a lot of patience. You weren’t wrong for staying calm; not joining the chaos isn’t disloyalty. Alcohol can make people say hurtful things, but it’s okay to set boundaries and let her know how deeply that affected you once things cool down.