Boyfriend had a weird & combative reaction to something

[shimmyshimmy_ya]

First of all, new here.  Hello!  I could write a novel on our history together, but let's keep it short.  Me (41F) and my boyfriend (45M) have been together 8 years now, living together for about 6-7.  No kids, don't want any.   He is previously divorced, I am previously fianceed.  I never pushed getting married on him, because that's what his ex-wife did and it seemed to have left a mark.  He has talked about getting me a ring, going as far as to ask me to show him styles that I like - this was about 1.5 years ago.  It's been radio silence since then.  I actually thought he was going to propose on a big trip we had a year ago.  After that didn't happen, I stopped talking about it.  I ended up getting myself my own ring to wear on my right hand and it's brought me a lot of joy.  (Choosing myself, self love, etc, etc)

We recently had a fight/situation that has put me in a different headspace where I feel as though I am withdrawing.  (I think I'll make a different topic on that one)  I am trying to come to terms with the fact that we will never be married.  Because.. if he wanted to, he would, right?

Anyhow - I got a birthday card from his aunt in the mail and opened it in front of him.  The front said To my niece and I said "Aww, i'm her niece now".  I believe the previous year's card said to the one my nephew loves or something like that.  I guess he took the statement as teasing or pestering, because he promptly said back "FINE - we'll go get married tomorrow then!"

I explained that I wasn't trying to be confrontational, that I thought it was cute.  I suppose my voice probably had a hint of sadness to it for all the reasons listed above, plus I honestly feel bad for her because it seems like she would like to actually call me niece and I don't think he will ever give her that.

He's got to be struggling with his own feelings of guilt - that's what that was all about, right?

Edited October 2 by shimmyshimmy_ya

[Els]

It doesn't sound to me like he's upset at you or even feeling guilty... he's probably just a bit annoyed at his aunt for being nosy and inappropriate. Many people in the older generations don't take kindly to younger folks living together for long periods of time without being married, and they often use passive-aggressive gestures like this to try and nudge the younger folks to do what they want. He's probably sick of getting an earful from his folks all the time.

Also, I hope you don't actually think that he should get married just to "give his aunt" something that she wants... That's a terrible reason to get married.

But enough about him, how about you? Do you actually WANT to get married with him? And if you do, is it a want or is it a need? Either answer is totally fine, you just have to be honest with yourself and what you want. And then you have to be honest with HIM about what you want. 

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Because.. if he wanted to, he would, right?

I mean, according to your post you hadn't ever talked about wanting to, so why would he make a unilateral proposal? Getting married is something that couples talk about BEFORE the proposal, in this day and age. It's not something that you should expect someone to "surprise" you with. 

The proposal itself can be a surprise (the location, the ring, etc), but the concept of getting married shouldn't be.

Edited October 2 by Els

[shimmyshimmy_ya]

39 minutes ago, Els said:

 he's probably just a bit annoyed at his aunt for being nosy and inappropriate. Many people in the older generations don't take kindly to younger folks living together for long periods of time without being married

I actually hadn't thought of that, and there might be some truth to it.  I know he got some flack for getting divorced, and I imagine being in a long term relationship without marriage might also be considered shameful.  

Of course I don't want him to marry me on account of his aunt, I am just saying that I felt some sadness imagining that she would like to have that closer connection with me.  His family and I get on really well.

Sorry I didn't mention it, but yes, marriage has been discussed between us in the past.  I was thinking something like an elopement followed by a small family get-together.  No, I don't think I want to get married anymore.  ..I'm over it?  I feel like the moment has passed?  I am feeling a lot of things right now, truth be told.  As I mentioned, I dropped it and we don't talk about it anymore.

[MsJayne]

I feel for you, I've been in a very similar situation. It's not that they don't want to get married, it's that they've been married before, so you know they're the marrying kind, and dragging their feet about marrying you, or being anti-marriage, makes it feel like you might be filling a void or there's some doubts there, like you're not really "the one" but they're pretending you are. Ultimately it caused big problems in my relationship and I ended it because I became so distrustful of his motives for being with me, and I think unless you tackle this head-on this is what will happen in your relationship. You have an elephant in the room, he spoke to you about marriage and then seemed to just take it off the table, putting you in a position where you're left dangling, wondering. This is an awful thing to do to someone, and so it's natural that you're starting to withdraw. My advice is to end the relationship, he's taking you for granted. Him having a weird reaction to the 'niece' comment sounds like he feels pressured to get married, so ending it is the best way to fix that for him. 

Edited October 2 by MsJayne

[glows]

Looking forward to reading the other thread about what the fight was about because you do seem a bit frustrated and checked out of the relationship(withdrawn). This recent fight and details would give more insight to your dynamics.

I didn’t read the aunts card as anything too personal. It sounds more like convenience and out of respect as well to you both being together now 8 years which is a considerable length by now. She thinks of you fondly as part of the family. I can see how that might be triggering with the marriage topic. 

I think if marriage is important to you this is something you’ll have to take the lead on and be clear it’s what you want. It does seem to be bothering you.

[Els]

4 hours ago, shimmyshimmy_ya said:

I actually hadn't thought of that, and there might be some truth to it.  I know he got some flack for getting divorced, and I imagine being in a long term relationship without marriage might also be considered shameful.  

I don't think it's necessarily "shameful" either, it's just that family can be... exhausting? When they try to push and push you to do the things that they think you should do. It's something that looks benign to a 3rd party observer, I guess, but when you've gotten so so so so so many of them over the years, you start to react very negatively towards anything like that.

To be fair, I don't know either of you. It's just that if I put myself in his place, I feel like that might be how I'd react too. It sucks for you, though, because even if I'm right, it's totally not your fault - it's just unfortunate that you got caught in the middle.

But enough about me... It sounds like you're not happy with the state of things in your relationship. And that's totally okay and your prerogative! You have to decide whether this relationship is right for you, and if it's not, don't be afraid to leave. No point staying with a person who's wrong for you.

Edited October 2 by Els

[Sanch62]

Where did you stand on wanting marriage for yourself prior to meeting this partner?

When he discussed marriage as a possibility and raised your preferences for a ring, did this strike you as a surprise, or were you already primed to be hopeful about marriage with him?

At what point did you realize that his lack of action or further discussions about marriage had left you flapping in limbo, and did you attempt to learn why that happened from his POV? How did he respond to that?

[Alpacalia]

Together 8 years and 1.5 years since he asked about ring styles… and nothing. No follow-up, no conversation, no clarity. Just silence. And now, after all this time, the only mention of marriage comes out as a defensive, offhand “Fine—we’ll go get married tomorrow then!” That’s not a proposal. That’s a reaction. And it’s telling.

You’re withdrawing because you’re tired of loving in a way that feels unreciprocated.

I don't think he feels guilty, I think he feels pressured (even though you've been nothing but patient). Deflection. Sarcasm. A reactive quip instead of a real conversation. Because it’s easier to joke than to admit fear or uncertainty.

[shimmyshimmy_ya]

3 hours ago, Sanch62 said:

Where did you stand on wanting marriage for yourself prior to meeting this partner?

When he discussed marriage as a possibility and raised your preferences for a ring, did this strike you as a surprise, or were you already primed to be hopeful about marriage with him?

At what point did you realize that his lack of action or further discussions about marriage had left you flapping in limbo, and did you attempt to learn why that happened from his POV? How did he respond to that?

I wanted to get married - to the right person.  Which is why even though my ex proposed to me,  I ended the relationship.  (I think he only did it to further his controlling and jealous behavior.  I.e. make me "his") 

When it was brought up with my current,  yes I would say I was primed to be hopeful.  As I mentioned before, we had a situation that caused me to seek therapy and kinda gutted me. (Has to do with trust and openness)

No I haven't attempted to bring it up.   We just sorta got over this big issue and I am made to feel like a bother when I want to "talk".  It's also seemingly never a good time.. always something from job stress to family emergencies.

 

[ExpatInItaly]

It seems pretty clear he does not want to get married again. 

Are you okay being together but no marriage? Some are. It sounds like you've tried to talk yourself into being okay with that, but are you really?  

What was this big fight about? 

[Els]

13 hours ago, shimmyshimmy_ya said:

No I haven't attempted to bring it up.   We just sorta got over this big issue and I am made to feel like a bother when I want to "talk".  It's also seemingly never a good time.. always something from job stress to family emergencies.

That's not good. Even if you didn't care about marriage (which you do), it's concerning if he always makes you feel "like a bother" when you bring up something that you are not happy about. How do you feel about this relationship otherwise?

[Sanch62]

16 hours ago, shimmyshimmy_ya said:

When it was brought up with my current,  yes I would say I was primed to be hopeful.

What kept you primed to be hopeful for so many years?

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As I mentioned before, we had a situation that caused me to seek therapy and kinda gutted me. (Has to do with trust and openness)

When did this happen, and what was the situation? What was the outcome?

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No I haven't attempted to bring it up.   We just sorta got over this big issue and I am made to feel like a bother when I want to "talk". 

This doesn't sound like "getting over" anything.

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It's also seemingly never a good time.. always something from job stress to family emergencies.

I'd stop making this about him and start making it about me, and how I want to live. Is this the future I envision for myself?

I'd look at all the years I've given only for 'this' to become the current state of my relationship, and I'd ask myself if I want to stay or go. If I want to stay, then here I am, accepting that this is as good as it's going to get with this man.

If I want to go, then my next question would be, "When?"

[shimmyshimmy_ya]

 

I've recently had a change of mindset, and not in a great way.  I am currently tied down by hurt and unable to get past it.  I have learned that deep down I have trust issues and a possible anxious attachment style based on the environment that I grew up in.  My father was not ever around and my mom was too hyper focused on my brother's substance abuse to give me a second thought.  I was bullied and teased all through school.  In ALL of my relationships there has been some element of a best girl friend or some situation to give me anxiety and raise my distrust.  I crept out of bed one night to catch a boyfriend video chatting with a girl half his age while I was asleep.  It's these past hurtful situations that leave me feeling insecure and untrusting.

Fast forward to the current boyfriend.  We met while I was in a relationship (engaged).  I think we were both taken with each other, but since I was not single I could not expect him to "wait" for me.  Still, it hurt hearing him talk about other women's bodies, seeing him flirt with the (much) younger coworker, or talk about his date with someone.  I was down bad for him while still in my relationship.  I ended that relationship, and even though I told myself it didn't have to do with my crush on him, who am I kidding?

We got together about 6 months later.  I still carried the hurt of having a front row seat to his flirting and dating before us.  Two instances in particular re-ignited my feelings of mistrust where he didn't lie - but withheld the truth.  One was a lady friend that had been visiting him at work around the time we got together.  She wanted to be with him, they went on a few dates before we were official.  He described her as a nuisance, someone who "stalked" him.  Yet - when I saw that he was texting her somewhat regularly 2 years into the relationship I said "what??".  I felt blind-sided that I didn't know about this friendship which he happily was engaging in.

Then about 3 or 4 years into the relationship, we are driving and a "happy birthday" text comes up on his screen from his ex-girlfriend.  This particular ex I knew of from looking at his facebook profile.  They had a lot of pictures together, with his family and everything.  Dated for years, it seemed pretty serious.  When I inquired about her, he shrugged it off and minimized their relationship.  He called her "crazy".  If he felt this way about her, why was she still saved in his phone 5+ years after they split?  Again, I felt blind-sided and like I was in the dark about what part she played in his past and left wondering how often they speak.  I don't keep my exes in my contact list and I certainly don't reach out to say happy birthday.  

We have been through a lot in this relationship, both as a couple and individually.  I used to want his approval and affection so badly that I put all my self worth into it and when I couldn't be the person he wanted, I actually struggled with thoughts of suicide.  As a couple, our ability to listen to each other and communicate effectively has greatly improved.

However, old habits die hard, which brings us to present day.  First and foremost, there is the underlying expectation of getting married eventually.  I was patient, realizing he was a divorced man and probably apprehensive.  He's talked about us getting married in a positive and willing way, but has since ceased talk of it.  We had been drifting apart, not having sex nearly as often as the beginning (I'm talking 5 months at a clip) and not being present with each other while we're here at home.  I would glance over at him nose deep in his phone while seated next to him and I started to notice he was communicating with a female coworker named Avery.  When I inquired who she was and what they were talking about he said just work talk.  Of course, my suspicion and mistrust got the best of me, and I unfortunately snooped.  I saw that it was more than just work talk - nothing incriminating, really - but certainly day to day chatter.  He did text her that he missed her and she said "I miss you too :*)" which rubbed me the wrong way.   I came to him with my findings and he admitted that he considers her a friend.  I was left feeling blindsided - again.  Why didn't I know about this new found friend of his?

At this point, my mistrust is on high alert and I say to him that I would feel better if I could get a chance to see their text messages.  He would not show me in the moment and instead withdrew.  In an effort to help me 'understand' her more and understand their relationship, he would only gloat about how smart and great she is.  (Which made me feel insecure and jealous).  Then a few weeks later, I see that she is texting him on her day off while she's on a trip just to show him a picture of something she saw.  I'm sorry, but the thought of texting a male coworker 20 years my senor when I have a boyfriend is not something I would ever do.  Call me old school, I guess?

Weeks go by and I seek out therapy to help with my trust issues.  We were here at home and he was napping.  I was reading reddit and something sparked my thoughts to Avery.  I tried once again to see if he would show me their text messages.  He looked at me with such contempt and after a moment held his phone out to me while shouting "here, HERE".  So I said nevermind.   I later explained to him that him being open to showing me his phone when I'm feeling insecure would do so much to ease my mind.  I know it might be asking a lot, but I really feel that over time, after I see there is nothing to worry about, that I will learn to trust and not even care about what they text anymore.  He will not do this for me.  I'm gutted that my boyfriend refuses to do this one thing that I am begging to make me feel better.  If it were me, and I had nothing to hide, I wouldn't hesitate to do *anything* that would make him feel better.

So, now I'm withdrawing and getting extremely depressed as I realize that this man will not share his whole self with me.  It makes me not want to get married anymore.  I am feeling like he can be a part of my life, but not my whole life because why would I commit to someone who cannot do one simple task to ease my mind?  I am distancing myself waiting for an inevitable heartbreak.

Edited October 3 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[basil67]

7 hours ago, shimmyshimmy_ya said:

I later explained to him that him being open to showing me his phone when I'm feeling insecure would do so much to ease my mind.

I don't agree that it would ease your mind because common sense says that a person having an affair could use a burner phone.  Or a secret email.  Or phone calls .   Now I'm not saying that he is having an affair....but my advice is to figure out if you can trust him or not.  If you can't trust him, then you need to walk away from him.   

[ExpatInItaly]

Oh boy. So, there was a lot of backstory to this. 

4 hours ago, basil67 said:

If you can't trust him, then you need to walk away from him.

This. And also, OP, in my experience the men who paint every other woman as the "crazy" one but contiue to entertain them? Huge red flag. I am surprised you've stayed with this man so long. 

But since you have, be prepared to never get married and to always be looking over your shoulder. 

[shimmyshimmy_ya]

9 hours ago, basil67 said:

If you can't trust him, then you need to walk away from him.   

I feel like I can't truly trust anyone.  I do believe he is a good guy, but I have this overwhelming urge to see what he's talking to these girls about.  There are a handful from his job that he seems to text with.  I do not think he would ever cheat physically.

Is it unreasonable for me to want him to be open with his phone communications?  (If the shoe were on the other foot, I'd say feel free to look at my phone anytime)

Is it unreasonable to want marriage?  When my therapist asked me straight up why I wanted to get married I couldn't give her a straight answer.  To me, it's a symbol of true commitment and crazy as it seems, if we were to take this step, I might feel less mistrusting because it would be a huge gesture to me.  I know marriage doesn't fix problems though.

He was actually talking to me about one of the girls this morning, after I said it was weird she was texting him at 9:30am.  He went on to tell me that she goes between staying out late and drinking or working out because her boyfriend made a comment about her body and now all she does is work out and eat yogurt.  Like, why does he know she's at the gym right now? ugh.  Then he got frustrated with me when I had sadness in my voice and promptly shut the door hard as he left.  I just hate that he knows so much about this YOUNG girl's life and routine.  I don't know.. it bothers me.  And it bothers me even more that he has zero patience for any of my emotions.

Edited October 4 by shimmyshimmy_ya

[shimmyshimmy_ya]

His "harem" as I refer to them in my mind are all girls in their early to mid 20s.  He is a 46 year old man.  He talks to so many of them like they friends or something, I just think it's f*&king weird.  This has never been a situation for us before.  His coworkers & staff were always just that and he never had any other connection.  This is new that all of a sudden he has this whole group of girls that he chats with.

[Gebidozo]

Sorry, OP, but, as a man roughly the same age as your boyfriend, I have to tell you bluntly that I’d be extremely bothered by your jealousy and control. I’m not surprised that he is feeling stressed out and unwilling to talk about marriage anymore.

Many of my students are young women and I communicate with them, chat, joke, exchange photos, and so on, without having the slightest intention of cheating on my partner. My partner has male friends, some of whom are older than her, and I know that they are just friends and would never ask her to show me her phone conversations with them. There is nothing wrong with talking or hanging with younger or older people of any gender.

There is also nothing wrong with keeping contact with exes, as long as no boundaries are crossed. Both my partner and I have exes with whom we occasionally communicate.

You really need to work on your trust issues before attempting to solve anything else in your relationship.

[shimmyshimmy_ya]

12 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

You really need to work on your trust issues before attempting to solve anything else in your relationship.

You are exactly right, and I understand the part that my own problems play in this whole thing.  The thing is, I've convinced myself that if I could just see the texts/be more involved and know what they are saying that it would make me feel better.  I'm determined that this approach is the path to healing, and that after an extended time of seeing boring texts, I will let go of my suspicions.  Clearly I need to search for another method of healing from within.  I am still extremely hurt that in the moments of our most serious conversations he wouldn't prove to me that there was nothing to worry about.  Then again, I am fully conscious that he shouldn't have to "prove" anything. 

He texted me this:  "I love you.  I am spending the rest of my life with you and only you".  I'm curious what the crowd has to say about that.  Is talk cheap?  If he really felt this way, why wouldn't he have proposed already?  Or maybe he is aware of my crazy and waiting for me to make changes within before taking the next step.

[shimmyshimmy_ya]

19 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

There is nothing wrong with talking or hanging with younger or older people of any gender.

You're right, there isn't.  There shouldn't be.   But with my history of various betrayals coupled with the fact that he has withheld information in the past, on top of my insecurities of being good enough/attractive enough are a recipe for disaster.   Do you think a partner should adjust their habits on account of helping their significant other overcome hurdles like this?

[Gebidozo]

1 hour ago, shimmyshimmy_ya said:

He texted me this:  "I love you.  I am spending the rest of my life with you and only you".  I'm curious what the crowd has to say about that.  Is talk cheap?  If he really felt this way, why wouldn't he have proposed already? 

He says he wants to spend the rest of his life with you. Isn’t that a proposal?

More and more people commit to long-term and even lifelong relationships without getting that government-issued paper with a stamp on it.

The quality, the commitment level, and the health of a relationship are infinitely more important than any legal document.

[Gebidozo]

1 hour ago, shimmyshimmy_ya said:

You're right, there isn't.  There shouldn't be.   But with my history of various betrayals coupled with the fact that he has withheld information in the past, on top of my insecurities of being good enough/attractive enough are a recipe for disaster.   Do you think a partner should adjust their habits on account of helping their significant other overcome hurdles like this?

As someone with a history of deep insecurities who used to literally request partners to do just that, I’d say that really depends on how much the partner is expected to adjust. And those adjustments have to be discussed beforehand and not forced upon the partner.

Obviously, there are certain things we do when we’re single, which we don’t do when we are in a relationship. But if we are plagued with insecurities, we can’t ask our partners to fix that by minimizing their interaction with other people and reporting every such interaction to us. Not only because it’s unfair to them, but also because it’s harmful to the relationship and does absolutely nothing to solve our trust issues.

[shimmyshimmy_ya]

47 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

He says he wants to spend the rest of his life with you. Isn’t that a proposal?

No, sorry, I think actions speak louder than words.  It doesn't even have to be government stamped.  The rings (an outward show to the world that you are committed) and the ceremony (the act of saying out loud and promising to commit to each other) is what I want.  Doesn't even have to be an expensive ring, I'm not that kind of girl.

In any case, I've really considered everything you said and thank you for your replies.  We need to communicate about all this, but I'm apprehensive to even bring it up because as I mentioned, I feel like a bother.  He is more concerned with me "ruining our day together" than having a thoughtful conversation it seems

The craziest part of all is that I broke it off with my fiancee years ago because he was overly jealous and controlling.. and here I am turning into the thing I used to hate.  I have a lot of inner work to do.

[ExpatInItaly]

2 hours ago, shimmyshimmy_ya said:

He texted me this:  "I love you.  I am spending the rest of my life with you and only you".  I'm curious what the crowd has to say about that.

Why does it matter, really? I mean that sincerely. We aren't you and can't decide for you if this is sufficient for you. 

You want marriage. He apparently doesn't. Neither of you is wrong in your desire, but you're very unlikely to be okay with each others' long-term goals. In my experience and observation, when someone has to try to convince themselves to accept the other's desires like this (convincing yourself to be okay with not gettbing married, or vice versa in his case), it almost never ends well. 

 

[basil67]

8 hours ago, shimmyshimmy_ya said:

I feel like I can't truly trust anyone.  I do believe he is a good guy, but I have this overwhelming urge to see what he's talking to these girls about.  There are a handful from his job that he seems to text with.  I do not think he would ever cheat physically.

Is it unreasonable for me to want him to be open with his phone communications?  (If the shoe were on the other foot, I'd say feel free to look at my phone anytime)

Is it unreasonable to want marriage?  When my therapist asked me straight up why I wanted to get married I couldn't give her a straight answer.  To me, it's a symbol of true commitment and crazy as it seems, if we were to take this step, I might feel less mistrusting because it would be a huge gesture to me.  I know marriage doesn't fix problems though.

He was actually talking to me about one of the girls this morning, after I said it was weird she was texting him at 9:30am.  He went on to tell me that she goes between staying out late and drinking or working out because her boyfriend made a comment about her body and now all she does is work out and eat yogurt.  Like, why does he know she's at the gym right now? ugh.  Then he got frustrated with me when I had sadness in my voice and promptly shut the door hard as he left.  I just hate that he knows so much about this YOUNG girl's life and routine.  I don't know.. it bothers me.  And it bothers me even more that he has zero patience for any of my emotions.

If you can't trust anyone, then you shouldn't be thinking about marriage.  It's one thing to not trust a partner who's not acting trustworthy, but you're still carrying hurt and jealousy because he saw other people while you were still in a relationship.  While your feelings were real, do you realise how entitled you were being expecting him to wait around for you?   

Yes, it's unreasonable for you to want him to be open with his phone, and not just for all the reasons I gave before about it have no value.  I would add that ethically, people who send texts should be confident that nobody else is reading them.   For example, if I texted all my dumb thoughts to my BFF and found her husband had been reading them, I'd be livid!   

You need to decide once and for all if you can trust him.  And if you can't trust him for whatever reason, end the relationship.  And ending it because "I have so many trust issues that I have no business being in a relationship" is a perfectly valid reason.  

Given his reactions your emotions, I think he's likely to end the relationship if you keep at him like this.  That said, if you decide that you want the kind of guy who doesn't have a harem of young women, I think it would be a wise choice on your part. 

Edited October 4 by basil67