Author Walk Posted January 11, 2006 Author Posted January 11, 2006 Why are you continuing to torture and destroy yourself by going on with him? The more you fight the more drained you will feel. You are going around in circles and he is making you feel bad and guilty and more worthless when YOU are the one being mistreated and mind-f***ed! Uhm.. say I'm 2, and mentally retarded... please. 'cause I feel like it... I mean, what if you took his words just as they are? Without my interpretation... would they be different? I don't want to destroy him. I just wanted respect. When you don't try to arouse my desire for you, then it seems like all your offering is a hole. Cause that's all the effort you want to put forth. This reply, for instance. I was wearing a baggy sweat shirt and pajama bottoms. Not sexy in any manner. Honestly. No man would find that "arousing" unless he never got laid at all. So is he asking too much? Am I making it out to be more then he's saying? Am I twisting this all into some huge thing, when all he's asking for is a little skin when I ask for sex? Am I overblowing the issue? I take things too harshly, I know this. You call yourself 'Walk'--is that because you know you have to? like, walk away? Ironic.. no.. its shortened from Stephen King novel.. Long Walk. About a contest where young kids take the "long walk", and if they fall, they are shot. They walk until there is only one left...then he "wins", but in reality no one wins. And all those lives are destroyed all for a 'game'.
cygny Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 Walk...I know you are emotionally drained right now...please be kind to yourself. Even if this guy has a point about the baggy sweatshirt...the overall undeniable fact is that your relationship is f***ed-up and you aren't able to fix it. neither is he. it has become too polarized and cruel and now you are just playing verbal swordsmanship. If I looked only at his words, they are still really messed up. He doesn't understand the basic thing about a relationship. it's called seduction. The other thing is called sharing. He has made this relationship so that he is doing all the money making and forcing you into feeling like you have to do all the sex. You are trying to rationalize this. But sex and love don't work that way. In provider setups the only way it works is if the guy provides out of love. But he's still a man and courts and woos his woman. Then the woman reciprocates out of a loving response. She feels loved and feels sexy so she can be sexy. What he is doing is making you into a dog that performs tricks for him on his command. See the difference? Don't beat yourself over the head any more about this. It is just plain f***ed-up and you aren't going to fix it by talking to him.
Pendawn Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 This reply, for instance. I was wearing a baggy sweat shirt and pajama bottoms. Not sexy in any manner. Honestly. No man would find that "arousing" unless he never got laid at all. So is he asking too much? Am I making it out to be more then he's saying? Am I twisting this all into some huge thing, when all he's asking for is a little skin when I ask for sex? Am I overblowing the issue? I take things too harshly, I know this. No. Because any normal decent guy who cares about your feelings as well as is own desires would say "oh honey a trip upstairs sounds a good idea, but why don't you go ahead of me, and go put something nice on to surprise me and gimme a shout and i'll be up to see the surprise!", or "aww honey, you look so comfy let's just cuddle up together just now. Maybe we can have a shower together later and see how things go." Because any normal decent guy would not flatly refuse your offer then get mad at you becuase you didn't offer in the right way. You're not a mind reader, he could let you know you didn't put him in the mood dressed like that but hey do something a little different nad he's good to go.
noclobber Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 Uhm.. say I'm 2, and mentally retarded... please. 'cause I feel like it... I mean, what if you took his words just as they are? Without my interpretation... would they be different? I don't want to destroy him. I just wanted respect. This reply, for instance. I was wearing a baggy sweat shirt and pajama bottoms. Not sexy in any manner. Honestly. No man would find that "arousing" unless he never got laid at all. So is he asking too much? Am I making it out to be more then he's saying? Am I twisting this all into some huge thing, when all he's asking for is a little skin when I ask for sex? Am I overblowing the issue? I take things too harshly, I know this. Walk is something wrong with you??????? i can't believe u r talking like this.. seriously.. what has this guy done to you? u appear to be completely messed up. i am kinda getting confused as to whether u r complaining about that guy or complaining about urself.... baby, please listen to us.. get away from the relationship before something serious happens. ur self-esteem has been drained by this man! why r u doing this to urself? do urself a favor and get out of that stinking relationship!
clandestinidad Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 Alright....you seem to be asking this: "Is what he's asking for so bad?? He just wants me to arouse him more, thats all. And he's so upset all the time b/c I dont do it right...I just cant arouse him in ANY way, no matter what I try." If I'm interpreting what you've said correctly, I will respond to that. If I'm wrong about something let me know and I'll respond in tune. Okay.....Is it wrong for him to want to be aroused by you? No, thats a normal human response. We like to be aroused. The problem with what he does, is that he says he wants ___, he wants it like ___, and he's extremely particular about it. Such as before or after a shower, or how soon after he comes into town, or how soon after he walks in the door, or on what piece of furniture, what color lingerie youre wearing, what 'moves' you make, what phrases you say, the face you make when you say it, the tone in your voice, if you look at the cat when you say it, if you pet the cat when you say it, if you laid out his clothes and everything for him, etc etc. He is ridiculously particular about everything, and its obvious that its not just a quirk in his personality, but rather a manipulation-control issue. Its obviously that, b/c he changes his mind about certain particulars whenever it suits the situation. If someone has a quirk about something, say....they only like black lingerie. Then they tell the person, and that person would wear only black lingerie b/c they love them and want to 'arouse' them. The person who requested such a thing would be very happy. Not only b/c they wore black and aroused them, but also b/c the person's request was being granted, making them feel loved. The thing w/ your SO is that even if you would wear the black color, he would find something else to pick at you about, and tell you how much you mess up and cant do anything right, no matter how ridiculous and off the wall his argument is. Take the example of the cat, or the one about timing it with a shower, or the one about how soon after he gets home you try to arouse him, or how you phrased wanting sex, etc. There are so many examples. Here's the thing. Usually when someone makes a request of the one they love and that person follows through, they are really happy. They dont pull $h!t out of the air to complain/argue about. They dont change their minds about what they wanted. They dont nitpick every miniscule detail about the situation.....they are happy with the overall result. The fact that your SO does these things makes it obvious that he twists everything, no matter if you did something that would have been the right thing yesterday or few hours before. He twists them in order to maintain his control and manipulation. To keep you feeling like you better be on your toes and doing everything perfectly (but he changes it all the time)...or else youre a selfish $h!1tty person who cant do anything right. But dont you see that no matter what hoop jumping you do, he will find something wrong with it. Not b/c anything is wrong w/ you or what you did, but for the simple fact that he gets pleasure out of what he's doing. No one will spend hours lecturing the person they love on how selfish she is and what the 'correct' way of doing it would have been, seeing her bawling and feeling like $h!t most of the time, and not derive pleasure out of it. He is ENJOYING this. He loves his anger. He loves playing God with you. Also about the arousal part....it should never be THAT hard to arouse someone who loves you. It should not require such specifications as he has set up, and he changes them all the time. It would not matter if you had sweatpants on (unless thats ALL you ever wore). It would not matter if you danced the correct way. It would not matter HOW or WHEN you said it. It would not matter to the detail that he is nitpicking it!!!!! This discussion that you both keep having is just a huge manipulation on his part. Just an extremely hurtful way to control you and belittle you into the mindless robot he is trying to create. As I'm writing this, I'm wondering what you think about this 'love' he has for you. Is it love when you make someone jump through hoops to please you, only to find other details to make them feel bad about? Is it love to be so hurt by what someone has said to you for the last 2 hours that youre bawling, and they keep going on and on hurting you more...or ignore you and leave you hurting? Not only is it obvious that he's an abusive brainwasher, he also seems narcissistic. I found some brief characteristics similar to what ive seen in your posts: "3. Believes he is "special" and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions) Translation: Narcissists think that everyone who is not special and superior is worthless. By definition, normal, ordinary, and average aren't special and superior, and so, to narcissists, they are worthless. 4. Requires excessive admiration Translation: Excessive in two ways: they want praise, compliments, deference, and expressions of envy all the time, and they want to be told that everything they do is better than what others can do. Sincerity is not an issue here; all that matter are frequency and volume. 5. Has a sense of entitlement Translation: They expect automatic compliance with their wishes or especially favorable treatment, such as thinking that they should always be able to go first and that other people should stop whatever they're doing to do what the narcissists want, and may react with hurt or rage when these expectations are frustrated. 6. Selfishly takes advantage of others to achieve his own ends Translation: Narcissists use other people to get what they want without caring about the cost to the other people. 7. Lacks empathy Translation: They are unwilling to recognize or sympathize with other people's feelings and needs. They "tune out" when other people want to talk about their own problems. 8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him Translation: No translation needed. 9. Shows arrogant, haughty, patronizing, or contemptuous behaviors or attitudes Translation: They treat other people like dirt." I will look up more info for you. And by doing this, I hope you will see it more clearly. I also hope that you will leave him, b/c there is NO helping people such as this. They do not get help for their problems b/c they truly dont think anything is wrong with them. Seeing psych's is useless b/c they think they know more than the Doctor. They will never be helped unless they hit rock bottom....even then they'll probably blame it on everyone else. I'll write more later 1
clandestinidad Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 "Interaction with narcissists is confusing, even bewildering -- their reasons for what they do are not the same as normal reasons. In fact, treating them like normal people (e.g., appealing to their better nature, as in "Please have a heart," or giving them the chance to apologize and make amends) will make matters worse with a narcissist." "The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict themselves. They will do this virtually in the same sentence, without even stopping to take a breath. It can be trivial (e.g., about what they want for lunch) or it can be serious (e.g., about whether or not they love you). When you ask them which one they mean, they'll deny ever saying the first one, though it may literally have been only seconds since they said it -- really, how could you think they'd ever have said that? You need to have your head examined! They will contradict FACTS. They will lie to you about things that you did together. They will misquote you to yourself. If you disagree with them, they'll say you're lying, making stuff up, or are crazy. [At this point, if you're like me, you sort of panic and want to talk to anyone who will listen about what is going on: this is a healthy reaction; it's a reality check ("who's the crazy one here?"); that you're confused by the narcissist's contrariness, that you turn to another person to help you keep your bearings, that you know something is seriously wrong and worry that it might be you are all signs that you are not a narcissist]. NOTE: Normal people can behave irrationally under emotional stress -- be confused, deny things they know, get sort of paranoid, want to be babied when they're in pain. But normal people recover pretty much within an hour or two or a day or two, and, with normal people, your expressions of love and concern for their welfare will be taken to heart. They will be stabilized by your emotional and moral support. Not so with narcissists -- the surest way I know of to get a crushing blow to your heart is to tell a narcissist you love her or him. They will respond with a nasty power move, such as telling you to do things entirely their way or else be banished from them forever." "Trying to reform narcissists by reasoning with them or by appealing to their better nature is about as effective as spitting in the ocean. What you see is what you get: they have no better nature. The fundamental problem here is that narcissists lack empathy." "Narcissists are generally contemptuous of others. This seems to spring, at base, from their general lack of empathy, and it comes out as (at best) a dismissive attitude towards other people's feelings, wishes, needs, concerns, standards, property, work, etc." "They think that they must be seen as perfect or superior or infallible, next to god-like (if not actually divine, then sitting on the right hand of God) -- or else they are worthless. There's no middle ground of ordinary normal humanity for narcissists. They can't tolerate the least disagreement. In fact, if you say, "Please don't do that again -- it hurts," narcissists will turn around and do it again harder to prove that they were right the first time; their reasoning seems to be something like "I am a good person and can do no wrong; therefore, I didn't hurt you and you are lying about it now..." "no matter how gently you suggest that they might do better to change their ways or get some help, they will react in one of two equally horrible ways: they will attack or they will withdraw. Be wary of wandering into this dragon's cave -- narcissists will say ANYTHING, they will trash anyone in their own self-justification, and then they will expect the immediate restoration of the status quo. They will attack you (sometimes physically) and spew a load of bile, insult, abuse, contempt, threats, etc" "They will say you are nothing, worthless, and turn around immediately and say that they love you. When you object to this kind of treatment, they will say, "You just have to accept me the way I am. (God made me this way, so God loves me even if you are too stupid to understand how special I am.)" "The narcissist expects that you will be devastated by the withdrawal of her/his divine attention, so that after a while -- a few weeks or months (i.e., the next time the narcissist needs to use you for something) -- the narcissist will expect you to have learned your lesson and be eager to return to the fold. If you have learned your lesson, you won't answer that call. They can't see that they have a problem; it's always somebody else who has the problem and needs to change. Therapies work at all only when the individual wants to change and, though narcissists hate their real selves, they don't want to change -- they want the world to change. And they criticize, gripe, and complain about almost everything and almost everyone almost all the time." "Narcissists just get worse and worse as they grow older" "Narcissists are hostile and ferocious in reaction, but they are generally passive and lacking in initiative. They don't start stuff -- they don't reach out. Remember this when they turn and rend you! They will complain about the same things for years on end, but only rarely do anything to change what dissatisfies them so badly" "Narcissists have little sense of humor. They don't get jokes, not even the funny papers or simple riddles, and they don't make jokes, except for sarcastic cracks and the lamest puns. This is because, lacking empathy, they don't get the context and affect of words or actions, and jokes, humor, comedy depend entirely on context and affect. They specialize in sarcasm about others and mistake it for wit, but, in my experience, narcissists are entirely incapable of irony.... I've known narcissists who'll make fun of others, repeat jokes they've heard others laugh at, and laugh at jokes when others laugh, but knowing how to make people laugh is not necessarily the same as having a sense of humor" "They do know that you're supposed to work and not be lazy, so they keep themselves occupied. But they are not invested in the work they do -- whatever they may produce is just something they have to do to get the admiration and power they crave. Since this is so, they really don't pay attention to what they're doing, preferring the easiest thing at every turn, even though they may be constantly occupied, so that narcissists manage to be workaholics and extremely lazy at the same time. Narcissists measure the worth of their work only by how much time they spend on it, not by what they produce." "A narcissist may, in fact, hold himself to a grinding work schedule that gives him something like an addictive high so that, when wrought up, he can be sort of dazed, giddy, and groggy, making you wonder if he's drunk or otherwise intoxicated -- now, that's a real workaholic. Usually, this excessive busyness appears to be -- and some will even tell you this -- an attempt to distract themselves from unpleasant or inconvenient feelings or to make themselves unavailable to others' emotional needs." "Narcissists feel entitled to whatever they can take. They expect privileges and indulgences, and they also feel entitled to exploit other people without any trace of reciprocation" "Narcissists are not only selfish and ungiving -- they seem to have to make a point of not giving what they know someone else wants. Thus, for instance, in a "romantic" relationship, they will want you to do what they want because they want it and not because you want it -- and, in fact, if you actually want to do what they want, then that's too much like sharing and you wreck their fun and they don't want it anymore. They want to get what they want from you without giving you what you want from them. Period. If you should happen to want to give what they want to get, then they'll lose interest in you." "narcissists will go out of their way to stir up other people's expectations and then go out of their way to disappoint those expectations" "narcissists lack empathy, so they don't know what you want or like and, evidently, they don't care either; second, they think their opinions are better and more important than anyone else's, so they'll give you what they think you ought to want, regardless of what you may have said when asked what you wanted" "It's very hard to have a simple, uncomplicated good time with a narcissist. Except for odd spells of heady euphoria unrelated to anything you can see, their affective range is mediocre-fake-normal to hell-on-Earth. They will sometimes lie low and be quiet, actually passive and dependent -- this is as good as it gets with narcissists. They are incapable of loving conduct towards anyone or anything, so they do not have the capacity for simple pleasure, beyond the satisfaction of bodily needs. There is only one way to please a narcissist (and it won't please you): that is to indulge their every whim, cater to their tiniest impulses, bend to their views on every little thing. There's only one way to get decent treatment from narcissists: keep your distance. They can be pretty nice, even charming, flirtatious, and seductive, to strangers, and will flatter you shamelessly if they want something from you. When you attempt to get close to them in a normal way, they feel you are putting emotional pressure on them and they withdraw because you're too demanding" "Run for cover when they start acting normal, maybe expressing a becoming self-doubt or even acknowledging some little fault of their own, such as saying they now realize that they haven't treated you right or that they took advantage of you before. They're just softening you up for something really nasty. These people are geniuses of "Come closer so I can slap you." Except that's not the way they think about it, if they think about it -- no, they're thinking, "Well, maybe you do really care about me, and, if you really care about me, then maybe you'll help me with this," only by "help" they mean do the whole thing, take total responsibility for it, including protecting and defending them and cleaning up the mess they've already made of it (which they will neglect to fill you in on because they haven't really been paying attention, have they, so how would they know??). They will not have considered for one second how much of your time it will take, how much trouble it may get you into in their behalf, that they will owe you BIG for this -- no, you're just going to do it all out of the goodness of your heart, which they are delighted to exploit yet again, and your virtue will be its own reward: it's supposed to just tickle you pink to be offered this generous opportunity of showing how much you love them and/or how lucky you are to be the servant of such a luminous personage. No lie -- they think other people do stuff for the same reason they do: to show off, to perform for an audience. That's one of the reasons they make outrageous demands, put you on the spot and create scenes in public: they're being generous -- they're trying to share the spotlight with you by giving you the chance to show off how absolutely stunningly devoted-to-them you are. It means that they love you; that's why they're hurt and bewildered when you angrily reject this invitation" "Nothing real is ever perfect enough to satisfy them, so are they are constantly complaining and criticizing -- to the point of verbal abuse and insult" "narcissist parents or partners have been relentlessly interfering and cruel in efforts to reform and re-form their "beloveds" "Now, it is possible to have a relatively smooth relationship with a narcissist, and it's possible to maintain it for a long time. The first requirement for this, though, is distance: this simply cannot be done with a narcissist you live with. Given distance, or only transient and intermittent contact, you can get along with narcissists by treating them as infants: you give them whatever they want or need whenever they ask and do not expect any reciprocation at all, do not expect them to show the slightest interest in you or your life (or even in why you're bothering with them at all), do not expect them to be able to do anything that you need or want, do not expect them to apologize or make amends or show any consideration for your feelings, do not expect them to take ordinary responsibility in any way. But note: they are not infants; infants develop and mature and require this kind of care for only a brief period, after which they are on the road to autonomy and looking after themselves, whereas narcissists never outgrow their demands for dedicated attention to their infantile needs 168 hours a week. Adult narcissists can be as demanding of your time and energy as little babies but without the gratification of their growing or learning anything from what they suck from you. Babies love you back, but adult narcissists are like vampires: they will take all you can give while giving nothing back, then curse you for running dry and discard you as a waste of their precious time." "as soon as you try to get close to them, they'll say that you are too demanding -- and, if you ever say "I love you," they'll presume that you belong to them as a possession or an appendage, and treat you very very badly right away. The abrupt change from decent treatment to outright abuse is very shocking and bewildering, and it's so contrary to normal experience that I was plenty old before I realized that it was actually my expression of affection that triggered the narcissists' nasty reactions. Once they know you are emotionally attached to them, they expect to be able to use you like an appliance and shove you around like a piece of furniture. If you object, then they'll say that obviously you don't really love them or else you'd let them do whatever they want with you. If you should be so uppity as to express a mind and heart of your own, then they will cut you off -- just like that, sometimes trashing you and all your friends on the way out the door. The narcissist will treat you just like a broken toy or tool or an unruly body part: "If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off" "they'll test your love by outrageous demands and power moves" "If you won't submit to their tyranny, then you will be discarded as "no good," "a waste of time," "you don't really love me or you'd do whatever I ask," "I give up on you." (Note: In many instances, narcissists' demands are not only outrageous but also impossible to fulfill even if you want to please them. Plus if you actually want to do what they want you to do, that would be too much like sharing, so they won't want it anymore.)" "Never love anything that can't love you back" (all of that is from halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/index) I picked out all of the things I've seen from your posts/threads about this guy. There is so much research on NPD and Abuse, and if you are still unsure about this guy and dont know if you should get out, please look up some more info. This relationship is killing you, you know that. Wouldnt you rather be happy in life?! Life is too short to spend it like this.
Mary3 Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 This bf of yours is truly disturbing.....I think he also suffers from Paranoid Skitzophrenia.Paranoid Skitzophrenia When they start the classic : "Somebody is watching me ,my phone is bugged , there are cameras outside on the telephone poles, I know they are planning to poison me....ect...ect...its time to open your eyes. He is mentally ill... Like I said in an earlier post , My best friend has this disease and nearly shot her husband dead With a Shotgun but thankfully he got it away from her. Thats in the advance stages of her disease right before she got help. She heard lots of things in her mind, was telling me the FBI was stalking her. In the end during being hospitalized she told me " You hear them don't you outside ? , they are calling me to come outside !" Of course no-one was calling her to come outside..You bf has a mental illness for sure. The real point is : This guy is seriously fricked up ! I say narcissitic fits him to a tee as well... I would get the H##$ Out ! Please don't wait any longer to get out ! Let someone else have his unfortunate problems Man he has ALOT of problems wayyyyyy out of the scope of reasoning ! Now I would like to tell you a story of someone I briefly let into my life. As I stated before I dont tolerate abuse of any kind but one person managed to frick with my head and this is kinda how the story went : We met and he was handsome. He was a little cool and careful of his emotions but we seem to hit it off. I decided quickly though that he could only be a FWB or friend NOT a boyfriend. Because he played the mind game thing of not calling . So once I put him in the FWB zone he would come over ( cheerful on the phone ) and by the time he got here 10 minutes later he would sulk and not want to go where he said we would go. After I noticed a pattern of that I put it down to he is really cheap and confused. Only later did I realize I believe that he is Bi Polar. Not ever knowing anyone like that I kept seeing him but his moods were strange. So when we got done having sex ( thats when he felt like it ) he would say " That was not very good. I had an ( him speaking ) orgasm but it wasnt a great one. I thought "I never heard any man say that." Then he talked about wanting to inflict a little pain and I balked at that. He said he needed pain to get off. Well one time I agreed and he did a little biting but I didn't like that much. He would always seem to be disatisfied with our sex. After awhile I wanted nothing to do with him. It drifted off and then he made a confession but I wont go any further here with it. Nuff said that I think your bf is like the FWB guy I was seeing. :FRicked Up !
BlahBlahQueen Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 They keep saying there are men out there who will appreciate a giving woman like you, but I think they're sadly mistaken. All I've learned so far is this: offer your hand, they take your whole freaking arm. Nice girls finish last. Et cetera. Being a bitch f***ed me over with my man tonight, but I'll bet it'll have helped me out in the long run. Last time I played nice I wasted a year of my life, a clean police record, my sanity and my emotional innocence. I say slip into your figurative strap-on and give it to him up his figurative arse. If you let him take advantage of you, that's YOUR weakness, not his. Everything you do is your own choice so stop blaming him for your unhappiness. You choose to stay.
ReluctantRomeo Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 I say slip into your figurative strap-on and give it to him up his figurative arse. If you let him take advantage of you, that's YOUR weakness, not his. I'm glad you haven't let bitterness and anger ruin your capacity to have meaningful relationships
blind_otter Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 Ok. Let's not start diagnosing your BF with various severe and persistent mental illness and let me say this (as a woman with many abusive relationships of different types under her belt, whatever that's worth)...sometimes it isn't WHAT they say that is that bad, I mean the content of what they say, minus the insults and condescending asides -- it is HOW they say what they want that is bad. Being self-centered isn't just about being selfish or narcissistic. It's about centering your world and your perspective on YOU, your effort, your needs and wants, to the exclusion of those around you. You appear to lack empathy when in reality your worldview is so centered on you that you simply cannot take in any other information. This sounds like your BF. There's a funny Sex and the City where Samantha says something to the effect of, the difference between a good and bad relationship depends on how much time you spend [frowning] and how much time you spend [smiling] (she illustrated the point with facial expressions). It seems like, at this point, there is too much water under the bridge....regardless of how valid the points being made ARE, they have been made in disrespectfu, argumentative ways -- it's a pattern that has been well established. You deserve a relationship where you can establish healthier patterns of interacting...once you are in an emotional groove with someone it takes herculian efforts to re-establish your baselines.... I'm just sayin.
lindya Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 They keep saying there are men out there who will appreciate a giving woman like you, but I think they're sadly mistaken. All I've learned so far is this: offer your hand, they take your whole freaking arm. Nice girls finish last. Only if you see "nice" as being just another word for "weak" - rather than being a word that conveys positive things - eg kindness, generosity, fairness and friendliness. As to whether kind, generous people get taken advantage of, I think they can do if their primary motivation, in behaving kindly and generously, is to win approval or avoid confrontation. I don't think it's possible to take advantage of someone who is giving for no particular reason other than that they get a kick out of seeing their loved ones' happiness. With that latter group, they're doing it because it makes them feel good - so presumably if they start feeling less good because they suspect the loved ones are starting to take advantage and disrespecting them, they'll stop doing it. 1
BlahBlahQueen Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 I'm glad you haven't let bitterness and anger ruin your capacity to have meaningful relationships Sigh... still trying to pick up the pieces after second husband...
ReluctantRomeo Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 Sigh... still trying to pick up the pieces after second husband... I'm sorry. That sucks
Mary3 Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 I am not trying to diagnose, only offer the possiblities that he could suffer from those ailments or he could just be a self centered son of a biotch . Either way , if she researches his behavior patterns and becomes knowledged and informed , its for her own benefit and she can make a healthy choice on what to do next.
Author Walk Posted January 11, 2006 Author Posted January 11, 2006 it is HOW they say what they want that is bad. Being self-centered isn't just about being selfish or narcissistic. It's about centering your world and your perspective on YOU, your effort, your needs and wants, to the exclusion of those around you. You appear to lack empathy when in reality your worldview is so centered on you that you simply cannot take in any other information. This sounds like your BF. But he is saying I am the one who is self centered, and selfish, that my view exludes those around me. That I lack empathy, and am unable to see his side of things. What if what he's saying is right? What if all you are getting is my side, and therefore he sounds selfish and self-centered, because I am viewing his actions in a narrow scope that only includes my wants and desires? And yes, how he says what he wants is bad. But he says how I say what I want is bad too. That I disregard everything he does for me, by telling him it's not what I want. That I take what he does for granted. I am beyond confused. utter chaos. That narcissit web link has portions of him, but I can see portions of me in there too. What if we're both narcissits and are subsisting off of each other in some horribly mutally ego driven relationship? I've gotta get off going.. got class, and I'm not sure how long it'll take to walk to campus. Kat23.. there are discrepencies in the post you made and how it is for me... that I'd like to talk to you about, and get your opinion on... If you wouldn't mind checking back later. I don't have time right now, but would like to see your view on what I see. Also, thank you for the post, it has given me a substantial amount of insight on some things, but left me confused on others. That was a lot of effort on your part, and I do want to say thank you! That was an amazing amount of information, and content. And it must've taken you quite a while to post that. Please don't think it's falling on deaf ears. Or that I'm unappreciative if I say I have some questions, or need clarification. I do appreciate it. Thank you.
SmoochieFace Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 But he is saying I am the one who is self centered, and selfish, that my view exludes those around me. That I lack empathy, and am unable to see his side of things. Projection...
BlahBlahQueen Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 But he is saying... that I lack empathy, and am unable to see his side of things. What if what he's saying is right? Read that again. The very fact that you admit the possibility means it's obviously not true.
Mary3 Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 I think part of this abusive pattern is that he has control of your mind to the degree that you are asking us if you are okay ? If you are being narcisstic ? If you are you offering him enough sex ? Why is he refusing appropriately , strategicly designed sex ? ( his words ) Why didn't you know he was sore on his center of his back and why didnt you give him a massage ? He can play endless mind games with you and since we arent there we can't possibly offer an answer. I would say get the heck away from him before the damage beats you down so low that you stay in some apathetic zombie trance and cannot any longer make ANY decisions for yourself. You are suffereing from Depression it seems ( I am not a doctor ) but depression has a funny way of paralyzing us and we do nothing because just wondering if you should wear the black sweater over the red one becomes a monumemtal task. All decisions seem overwhelming. You are sad. You are rejected repeatedly. You wonder your self worth. You are worth ALOT more than he gives you credit. Maybe we all can fit one element of narcissitic behavior . Maybe some of us fit a few but that does not make us a narcissist. Dont worry or give a flying frick WHAT he thinks anymore ! Just clear your mind by getting out of there. Out of the dark dungeon of mind torture and the demon who lives there in living color.
blind_otter Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 Projection... Word. Listen, I agree. There is never a villain and a victim in a relationship, even with physical abuse. I admit myself in my abusive relationships that I was no saint. I didn't sit there with a halo over my head and I wasn't always forgiving and loving. I agree that you both are at fault, though to what degree I can't say. But the bottom line is that no one should make someone else feel so badly. I mean, yeah, communicating your needs is good, but not torturing your partner and making them carry a huge burden of guilt and self-blame. So if you are questioning how you act with him as much as you question how he acts with YOU, shouldn't you at least step away for a hot minute to get your bearings?
Author Walk Posted January 11, 2006 Author Posted January 11, 2006 "The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict themselves. I feel he does this. Not always sure if I'm hearing wrong. However, he won't contradict himself right away. Might be weeks, days... months. It more like he puts more restrictions on what he felt first, then add this aspect, then add this aspect, until I feel backed into a wall. Then he'll say I stopped doing such and such. But I can't, because I couldn't cross those restrictions. They will lie to you about things that you did together. He doesn't lie about stuff like this. I had a friend that did this once. He recalls it as I remember it almost always. Arguments, outings, whatever, he's pretty much dead on. ...stabilized by your emotional and moral support. Not so with narcissists...... They will respond with a nasty power move, such as telling you to do things entirely their way or else be banished from them forever." I've noticed his is stablized by emotional/moral support usually. And he hasn't responded with a "power" move. In normal circumstances, he becomes more touchy feely, more affectionate... wants to do stuff for me. etc. No sudden power moves, or using me. "Narcissists are generally contemptuous of others. Yes.. here's the dreaded but... I am contemptuous of the same people for the same reasons. My brother who will suck my parents of every dime they get from social security. His brother who lives off welfare and food stamps... I think they are leaches and need a swift kick in the butt. But he isn't contemptuous of ALL people, just the ones that take because they feel they deserve whatever just for living. "Please don't do that again -- it hurts," narcissists will turn around and do it again harder to prove that they were right the first time; their reasoning seems to be something like "I am a good person and can do no wrong; therefore, I didn't hurt you and you are lying about it now..." There are things that I have asked him not to do either because it bothers or hurts me, and he has stopped doing. Other things though... So this is yes and no. "no matter how gently you suggest that they might do better to change their ways or get some help, they will react in one of two equally horrible ways: they will attack or they will withdraw. hmm.. yes and no... I've never suggested he get help, so don't know. I've suggested he take a hard look at his past, and find out why all of his gf supposedly do the exact same thing to him, over and over. And he either needs to pick a different type of woman, or it's him. In which case, he's actually come back more subdued. Not attacking. More of a guilt tatic though, or self pity aspect. But not attacking.... Me, on the other hand, will instantly go on the defensive. (I try really hard not to.) "They will say you are nothing, worthless, and turn around immediately and say that they love you. ha. he's pretty consistant. No reversals, and professions of undying love. ha ha... He doesn't ever say I'm worthless. In fact the very worst he's said is I turn into a head case, and get selfish when he's stressed. That is the utmost worst he's said. However, it does seem as if he finds a majority of what I do lacking, or not up to par. Which hurts. So maybe he's just more clever about it. Not so bad as to obviously be abuse, but still pu that deep in your head. "You just have to accept me the way I am. (God made me this way, so God loves me even if you are too stupid to understand how special I am.)" Hmm.. yes. I guess. He's more in the "I haven't changed, you have. I told you who I am, and you've known this from the beginning. So if you decide you don't like me now, it's your fault because I was up front and honest with you from day one." He was, for the most part... up front and honest. I just didn't realize that I couldn't live up to his expectations. "The narcissist expects that you will be devastated by the withdrawal of her/his divine attention, ..........they want the world to change. And they criticize, gripe, and complain about almost everything and almost everyone almost all the time." He tells me he doesn't "withdraw" to be hurtful to me. And that he doesn't understand why it's hurtful to me. I tried to explain that I felt like he had shut me out, that he didn't care if I lived or died... he said he did... and that if he didn't then he wouldn't have... whatever.. come home, call me, want to buy me this or that gift that he brought home. Wouldnt' have wanted to meet me for dinner... So then I think I'm just being co-dependent. But it's like this huge vast wasteland seperates us, and he's set up such huge fences that I can't breech them. It's... isolating. I guess... "Narcissists are hostile and ferocious in reaction, but they are generally passive and lacking in initiative. They don't start stuff -- they don't reach out. He's not passive. He'll reach right out there when he's mad. No problem with initiative in that. But he also gets really quite and shuts me out... doesnt' always mean it's a problem with "us", he'll do it if work gets too stressful with him, or he fights with his brother, etc. They will complain about the same things for years on end, but only rarely do anything to change what dissatisfies them so badly" I'm not sure... only thing he really complains about is his job. But I've tried to find him different jobs, and there aren't any in my state right now. Just nothing... so it's not something he can change at this time.... Otherwise, he was upset with his brother, and did change that. He was upset with his friend, and handled that. So I can't really see this in him. "Narcissists have little sense of humor. They don't get jokes, not even the funny papers or simple riddles, and they don't make jokes, except for sarcastic cracks and the lamest puns. He has a great sense of humor. Its one of the things that drew me to him, and I still enjoy. I never laughed so hard, or so long with anyone else, not since middle school. We have a very similiar sense of humor. And he finds irony in life, and can laugh at life. So I don't feel this fits him. "They do know that you're supposed to work and not be lazy, so they keep themselves occupied. He's happy staring at the floor hours on end, introspective. He works long hours now. But he used to have a regular job, that he got 3 days a week off from. So... no.. unless what I understand about his past is wrong. "Narcissists feel entitled to whatever they can take. They expect privileges and indulgences, and they also feel entitled to exploit other people without any trace of reciprocation" Definite No. He won't take anything from anyone, unless he's already given above and beyond what they give him. He won't accept money unless he's worked for it. He's very strong willed about this. Even sexually... he won't take unless he's given. Or can give back soon. "Narcissists are not only selfish and ungiving -- they seem to have to make a point of not giving what they know someone else wants. .....They want to get what they want from you without giving you what you want from them. Period. If you should happen to want to give what they want to get, then they'll lose interest in you." No... I ask for a back rub and he'll gladly do so... As long as he's not mad with me, or really angry at his job. I've asked him to go places with me, that I knew would be dull and boring for him, but wanted him along, and he happily went. So, I don't feel he's selfish on a normal basis, or doesn't give me something I want just because he knows I want it. But he won't give anything at all if he feels like I have been lax in reciprocating. "narcissists will go out of their way to stir up other people's expectations and then go out of their way to disappoint those expectations" No. doesn't do this. "narcissists lack empathy, so they don't know what you want or like and, evidently, they don't care either; second, they think their opinions are better and more important than anyone else's, so they'll give you what they think you ought to want, regardless of what you may have said when asked what you wanted" He knows what I like and want... and will bring me things that I do like, just out of the blue. However, I swear he believes his opinion is the correct one on all aspects. He's very egotistical. He will accept he's wrong if you give him enough evidence, data, or are able to convince him he's wrong. But I'm not very good at doing that. Never was. Not just with him, but in my entire life. "It's very hard to have a simple, uncomplicated good time with a narcissist. Except for odd spells of heady euphoria unrelated to anything you can see, their affective range is mediocre-fake-normal to hell-on-Earth. ........They are incapable of loving conduct towards anyone or anything, so they do not have the capacity for simple pleasure, beyond the satisfaction of bodily needs. There is only one way to please a narcissist (and it won't please you): that is to indulge their every whim, cater to their tiniest impulses, bend to their views on every little thing.When he's happy with me, he loves to cuddle and will pull me to him and cuddle. When things are good, he takes my hand, he kisses me a lot, he likes to touch and hold me. Without having it directly related to, or have to lead to sex. Usually doesn't lead directly to sex, which is one of the things I really like about him. I know he isn't just cuddling (or whatever) with the expectation that he'll immediately get rewarded with sex, or to con me into it. "Run for cover when they start acting normal, ...........These people are geniuses of "Come closer so I can slap you." Except that's not the way they think about it, if they think about it -- no, they're thinking, "Well, maybe you do really care about me, and, if you really care about me, then maybe you'll help me with this," only by "help" they mean do the whole thing, take total responsibility for it, including protecting and defending them and cleaning up the mess they've already made of it (which they will neglect to fill you in on because they haven't really been paying attention, have they, so how would they know??). ............: it's supposed to just tickle you pink to be offered this generous opportunity of showing how much you love them and/or how lucky you are to be the servant of such a luminous personage.No... he doesn't do this. Not that I can see. He takes care of his problems by himself. In fact, he won't ask for help and it drives me nuts. He doesn't expect me to "clean up" after him. He's very responsible with money, mroe so then others I've met. He doesn't get into problem situations. He doesn't quit a job without having enough money in the bank to pay rent. He gets a new job as the next week. (only happened once... so unsure if this is norm.) I don't see this applying to him. The "servant" part. Yes.. Sometimes I could kill him the way he treats me in front of his "friends" as if I'm there to boost his ego, fill his needs, and cater to him. But other times, he's so loving while in front of his friends. Really confusing. "Nothing real is ever perfect enough to satisfy them, so are they are constantly complaining and criticizing -- to the point of verbal abuse and insult"Yes. ..... do not expect them to be able to do anything that you need or want, do not expect them to apologize or make amends or show any consideration for your feelings, do not expect them to take ordinary responsibility in any way. [/Quote]Not sure. expect them to be able to do anything I need or want...? He does. Not always. Depends. He does when he's happy with me... Doesnt' when he's not. *shrug* As far as apologizing... NEVER. The one time he came close to apologizing, he's since taken it back. Said he only said it to "smooth things over". "as soon as you try to get close to them, they'll say that you are too demanding -- and, if you ever say "I love you," they'll presume that you belong to them as a possession or an appendage, and treat you very very badly right away.... If you object, then they'll say that obviously you don't really love them or else you'd let them do whatever they want with you. If you should be so uppity as to express a mind and heart of your own, then they will cut you off -- just like that, sometimes trashing you and all your friends on the way out the door. The narcissist will treat you just like a broken toy or tool or an unruly body part: "If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off" I dont feel he thinks I get too demanding really. Sometimes I do. I know I do. But other times, I don't want much and he still thinks I ask too much... He doesn't treat me badly "right away" if I say I love him, or express love. I don't see any correlation in his behavior behind my profession of love, and his behavior toward me. However, if I object to something he feels important, he will say I dont' knwo him, or I don't love him... I'm using him.. etc. He does treat me like a broken toy, though he says that's not so. I've told him how much it bothers me that sometimes he acts as though I'm trash, and he'll just dispose of me like a bag of garbage. But then he'll say, he doesn't... and we wouldn't still be talking if he did. Or he wouldn't still be here.. or he wouldn't be trying to work it out with me, etc. "they'll test your love by outrageous demands and power moves"He's the king of power moves. Don't do this, or I'll cut off all contact. Do this, or I'll cut off all contact. Maybe he's not full blown narcissistic.. I dont' know... This is why I'm having such a problem though... He fits some, but not all... and do I believe his words, or the words of someone who isn't in this relationship? He is so good to his brother, even though his brother takes advantage of him. He's good with kids. He treats my family like gold. Except he doesnt' like my brother, but I'm not too fond of my brother either, and he's blood. I don't know. His last text to me today, basically saying that I'd called him a mental case who has caused all the problems in his life to happen. People on here keep saying if you are questioning your crazyness then you aren't crazy. If he's questioning his, does that make him not crazy? I keep crying.. and yes, I'm depressed as hell. I drag my butt to class, but I have no motivation.. no desire to go... I just want to sleep. but I can't.. I need to eat.. but I'm not hungry.. I need to do things, and I'm so tired. And then I can't stop crying... I get to school, but sit in my car and cry.. then try to pretend my eyes aren't all red and poofy when I go into class. I try to smile, but it feels fake to me. Like I don't own my body, it's some one elses. And yet a part of me feels like... I don't need that creep. I'm the strongest person I know. I can do anything. I'm the best he'll ever get.. blah blah... It's this huge dicotomy that's tearing me apart. Part of me feel lost and so low... while the other part of me is hugely egotistical. Feel like I'm tearing in two.
whichwayisup Posted January 12, 2006 Posted January 12, 2006 I don't think analyzing him is doing alot of good for you right now. He has some Narcissistic traits, as we all do to some degree. Take a break from all this, GO have some fun with friends, see a movie or rent a funny DVD. Shoot pool, play darts, anything to get your mind off of him.
Author Walk Posted January 12, 2006 Author Posted January 12, 2006 Good call whichwayisup. Just got back from parental units house. That cheered me up. Learned more about stocks/bonds then I was prepared for... but still, interesting and informative. Nothing like getting unconditional love for a while to brighten your day. For as screwy as my family can be sometimes, they're really good people.
Outcast Posted January 12, 2006 Posted January 12, 2006 What if what he's saying is right? What if all you are getting is my side, and therefore he sounds selfish and self-centered, because I am viewing his actions in a narrow scope that only includes my wants and desires? Walk. Please. See a therapist. Call an abuse centre. Please. PLEASE. Trust me on this, there's no way you could have coloured your story enough that the truth still doesn't shine through. Please get help. You are seriously brainwashed if you insist on believing everything is your fault. Please get help. Please. As for the rest of you - HE ACCUSED HER OF TRYING TO POISON HIM. How nutty does a person need to be before you people will admit that maybe he's a bit off? Or are so many of you so used to off the wall behaviour that you think others should put up with any sort of garbage they get??? WWIU and BO - have you read all the posts here?????? Just when we almost manage to get Walk extracted you pat her and let her think maybe this guy is a dream after all.
Mary3 Posted January 12, 2006 Posted January 12, 2006 I still stand by what I say : You need to leave there and clear your mind. If you don't have the courage to make a clean break , then start staying away from home longer and longer if thats what it takes to hear the sound of silence and not his torturous words of how you are never pleasing him. I read your long post regarding his possible narcisstic behavior and would love to comment on it but what I would really like to see is for you to go stay with someone. I promise you thats exactly what you need. I was where you are , doubting myself, depressed , confused , anxious, paralyzed with the fear of any action because in my case , was threatened and there was lots of " If you do this, then this will happen " When you hear that enough , you are not sure of WHAT to do about anything . You need a strong support system right now. You need someone to physically come over there and help you get your things. You need to leave. You need NO CONTACT with him whatsoever while in your healing phase. I cannot stress us . YOU NEED TO LEAVE. Once you leave , you will feel the weight of an elephant off your chest. The birds will sing again. You will hear the laughter of children and chuckle along with them. Someone cares about you out there and wants to take you in to rid you of your doubts and this abuse. It is abuse . It is making you feel ALL the things you have asked us about. Doubted about yourself. Please leave. Until you have the sound of pure silence and some great counselors all you have NOW is disected long posts taking apart EVERY single thing you do and how its not good enough for him. PLease Leave. We will be here. You can get computer access I hope ? Maybe the library ? Either way , please leave this abusive relationship and we can help you through. I would like for you ONE DAY To say this " Wow I am soooo glad I left. I have so much to achieve . I am getting therapy. I have met someone who is not beating me to the ground. Because I have discovered that I am worth something and found someone who saw that I was worth everything
witabix Posted January 12, 2006 Posted January 12, 2006 Following this through Walk, I would back up WWIU's post. Try to take more time out to relax. Let your subconcious take over for a while. Sometimes a decision can hit when your not consciously thinking of one. Can't see the wood for the trees kind of thing. Analysing yourself has major benefits, but it can be over done. Hope you are ok and calm now.
Recommended Posts