Clash between two fundamental views on trust.

[tanbark813]

Well I guess it was only a matter of time before I posted about my new gf (or now ex-gf).

 

It seems like the majority of people fall into one of two camps regarding trust in relationships. It's generally either:

 

1. Trust the other person until you have reason otherwise.

 

or

 

2. Let your trust for the other person be determined by their actions.

 

I fall squarely into #2. My gf falls squarely into #1. We've both been cheated on in the past, and we both have our issues. We've talked about that stuff before but last night was the first time we talked about the trust specifically.

 

We've been seeing each other for about 2 months now and went out to a local pub last night. At first things were fine but eventually the conversation steers to how she gets the feeling that I don't fully trust her. I admit that that's true but then tell her that I don't trust anyone right off the bat and it's nothing personal.

 

She then says that she trusts me 100% and that she hasn't given me any reason why I shouldn't trust her 100%. Well, first of all, I don't think her claim to trust me is true. And if it is, it strikes me as naive. But anyway.

 

As for the second part of her claim, I mention a white lie I caught her in about a month ago. I also mention that she tends to keep things from her friends and "embellish" the truth. For example, she lied to a coworker about something going on so she could get him to cover her shift and come out with me. I appreciated that she did that for me, but it still kind of bothered me. I know it's not a big deal, but if she's that way with friends and coworkers, why not be like that with me?

 

The whole time I was really trying not to be accusatory. I didn't want it to sound like me going off on things that are bad about her. I just wanted to explain why I feel like I do and just let her know where I'm coming from.

 

She's also very flirtatious and outgoing and I mentioned one thing she said (well, really, typed on myspace) to a friend and that I thought it was over the line as far as limits on flirting when in a relationship. She then apologized for that one though.

 

She got really defensive about everything I was bringing up and basically told me that I had no reason to distrust her. This is when our two differing views of trust came up. I said that it's not fair for her to expect so much trust from me right off the bat. She said that if she knew I didn't trust her fully, she never would have been my gf. It seems like a chicken and the egg debate.

 

She then says we should take a step back.

 

"You mean see other people?" I ask.

 

"No. I mean just date, but not be bf/gf."

 

"Well I don't see the point of that and that's not something I'm willing to do. I'd like our relationship to move forward but I'm not taking a step back and wasting my time. Either you want to be with me or you don't."

 

We went back and forth on the same points over and over and I was starting to get pretty frustrated, especially by comments she would make like "I understand the reasons why you feel the way you do, and they're valid, but you have no reason to distrust me." To me that seems like a contradictory statement.

 

The thing is is that the white lie she's told in the past was denying being with a girl sexually but then later admitted when I asked a second time. It was brought up initially because I said that I tend to attract bisexual girls. And when I asked her last night if there was anything she was keeping from me--since she keeps things about her from even the closest of her friends--she looked like a deer caught in headlights. She said no, but I've seen that look and heard that "no" before. Rarely does it really mean no. My gut was telling me something was wrong and, historically, my gut instinct has a very high accuracy rate.

 

We go back and forth for a bit more until I finally say:

 

"Okay, look. Bottom line: I AM happy with you and would like to see things progress. I've explained why I feel like I do but if you say that these things that bother me don't mean anything then I'm willing to just trust you on that."

 

She's quiet for a bit and then I ask.

 

"So do you want to be with me or not?"

 

"No," she replies.

 

"Okay."

 

I turn away in my seat. I chill for about 30 seconds but then get too irritated to stay there. I stand up and begin to put my coat on.

 

"Let's go."

 

"Stay and finish your drink," she says.

 

"I'm leaving now. You can either come or stay. I don't give a f*ck."

 

She doesn't move so I walk out. The walk from the bar to my place is about 10 mnutes. I change, grab a beer, and chill on the couch. About 15 minutes later there is a loud pounding on my door. I walk over and open it.

 

"I'm just here to get my s***," she says immediately as she walks in.

 

"Don't pound on my door."

 

"I'm just here to get my s***," she repeats.

 

"Fine, but don't pound on my door. Knock nicely."

 

By then she had grabbed her stuff and was back out the door. I think she said 'f*ck you' as she left. I'm not sure. I slammed the door shut and went back to the couch.

 

She then called about 30 minutes later. I didn't pick up and she didn't leave a voicemail. She then texted me "Fine b a pussy no gentleman would leave a girl by herself n a bar!" (Those typos are hers, not mine.) I contemplated writing back and began writing "Grow up." and something about her deciding to stay but then she called again and I picked up.

 

I told her that she had her choice whether or not to leave with me and chose to stay. She reiterated that you don't leave a lady in a bar. I said I didn't leave her, she chose not to come with me. I also said that ladies don't pound on doors and told her she's acting like a bitch, not a lady. Then I said that she dumped me so why does she even care. Silence for a couple seconds. Then she started crying and saying "You're right. You're right," over and over.

 

"What am I right about?" I asked.

 

"You're right, you're right..."

 

She then said something else about not talking anymore but I couldn't really understand it. I just hung up the phone and haven't heard from her since.

 

I don't really have any specific questions. Just venting and getting all this out there to see if any one has any feedback. And if you read all this, you rock.

 

(Oh and hey, at least I didn't get cheated on this time. I'm making progress. )

[ReluctantRomeo]

Well done for avoiding the cheating trap, Tan. And for not taking crap...

 

BUT - I think mentioning the white lie was a mistake. As was bringing up the other stuff. In sensitive situations, I always think to myself "dial it down, Romeo". I think a better approach would have been to just stick with "you're great, I'm starting to trust you, but you have to give me time".

 

On the other hand, she really flipped on this. It seems to be more than just about you and this incident. And why is she so obsessed with trust... is something going on that you didn't know about do you think?

 

Anyhow, I hope you're doing ok and this wasn't too much of a blow. Stay strong. I'm guessing you'll see her again soon

[newbby]

maybe she felt like she wasnt perfect enough for you. i dont mean this as a criticism to you, but if somebody questions you on small things you do, then you wonder if they will accept you and love you warts and all. just a thought.

[witabix]

Hmm Tanbark,

 

Sounds a little like a power struggle. She wants you to trust her without showing you that you can. I too have a problem with that.

 

You will only trust her when she shows you that you can. I fully support that view. Trust must be earned.

 

Trying to draw someone in to trusting you, not necessarily in a sinister way, can threaten some people and for a variety reasons.

 

You have acted in reasonable way IMO.

 

You are allowed to ask questions, that is one way to offer the trust and how the person responds is one way to earn trust.

 

You may hear from her again, and you have a good base to work from now, she knows what you expect.

 

Good luck Tan, stay strong.

[tanbark813]

BUT - I think mentioning the white lie was a mistake. As was bringing up the other stuff. In sensitive situations, I always think to myself "dial it down, Romeo". I think a better approach would have been to just stick with "you're great, I'm starting to trust you, but you have to give me time".

 

Yeah, saying too much in situations like this has generally been a downfall of mine.

 

On the other hand, she really flipped on this. It seems to be more than just about you and this incident. And why is she so obsessed with trust... is something going on that you didn't know about do you think?

 

I do think that. When I would try to address that she keeps things from her friends so I wonder if she keeps things from me, she would give vague responses and try to steer the conversation in a different direction.

 

Anyhow, I hope you're doing ok and this wasn't too much of a blow. Stay strong. I'm guessing you'll see her again soon

 

Thanks, man. Yeah, I'm fine right now. We were only together for 2 months so it's not a big deal. I think I still have a little anger from last night so that's helping ward off any sadness that might be lurking in me.

 

I was actually surprised I got those calls from her last night. She's usually very calm and collected. I think she was bluffing with breaking up and it surprised her that I called her on it. When we first started seeing each other, she commented a lot on how confident I am. Her last ex is kind of a pussy so I think she thought I would beg for her if she tried initiating a breakup.

 

maybe she felt like she wasnt perfect enough for you. i dont mean this as a criticism to you, but if somebody questions you on small things you do, then you wonder if they will accept you and love you warts and all. just a thought.

 

Yeah, that could be part of it. I told her all the things that I do like about her. I don't think she's a horrible person or anything and I wasn't trying to sit there and criticize her last night. It was meant more as just "this is how I feel, and this is why..."

[tanbark813]

Hmm Tanbark,

 

Sounds a little like a power struggle. She wants you to trust her without showing you that you can. I too have a problem with that.

 

You will only trust her when she shows you that you can. I fully support that view. Trust must be earned.

 

Trying to draw someone in to trusting you, not necessarily in a sinister way, can threaten some people and for a variety reasons.

 

You have acted in reasonable way IMO.

 

You are allowed to ask questions, that is one way to offer the trust and how the person responds is one way to earn trust.

 

You may hear from her again, and you have a good base to work from now, she knows what you expect.

 

Good luck Tan, stay strong.

 

Thanks, man. And yeah, I agree that it was a power struggle. You're also right about that trying to draw people into trusting you can have negative reactions. In a weird way, I don't like that she says she trusts me 100% this early. It makes her seem naive to me.

[witabix]

Thanks, man. And yeah, I agree that it was a power struggle. You're also right about that trying to draw people into trusting you can have negative reactions. In a weird way, I don't like that she says she trusts me 100% this early. It makes her seem naive to me.

 

Yes I think naive is a good description. I would be suspicious of anyone who said they trusted me right off the bat, I would wonder why they would want to do that, and wonder even more why they would tell me so.

 

I like to be trusted but I feel its more important for someone to say to me "I trust you because you did/do this......." or "I know I can trust you to do this because that is what you always do".

 

Trust based on facts and historical responses, thats how you build trust, by showing that you can be trusted over time based on your actions, not so much based on your words.

[hotgurl]

wow that sucks.

 

I used to trust peple competly but now I trust is earned but generally I beleive in the good of people and extend a fair amoiunt of trust right off the bat.

 

I agree you probably shouldn't have pointed out the white lie etc.. but she also souldn't have flipped out so bad you've only have been dating for 2 mos what does she expect.

[JS17]

Sorry to hear that things didn't work out for you NN. I think you were a little tough and slightly closed minded but over all I think you handled it pretty well.

My gut was telling me something was wrong and, historically, my gut instinct has a very high accuracy rate.

For me, this is enough reason in and of itself to say that you did the right thing by letting the relationship end.

 

Just remember for the future that people aren't perfect and you can't expect them to be. Sure she might be a private person and not share things with her friends and she might tell a white lie here and there but it doesn't mean that she is untrustworthy. When I'm 10 minutes late or so I usually blame it on transportation and about half the time it's true. So I tell a little white lie about it sometimes, I would still never ever cheat on someone. She may be untrustworthy irrespective of that though and maybe that is what your gut is picking up on.

 

On the other hand, she really flipped on this. It seems to be more than just about you and this incident. And why is she so obsessed with trust... is something going on that you didn't know about do you think?

I'm on Tanbark's bandwagon as far as trust is concerned, I believe it's something that has to grow as you get to know the person. With that said, I couldn't be with someone who was always questioning whether I was trustworthy or not. You have to put some faith in me that I will do the right things even if you don't trust me completely yet. It's exhausting to constantly explain yourself.

 

I also wouldn't take too kindly to being called a b!tch! In the situation of an unexpected breakup, people don't always act calmly.

[alphamale]

It was brought up initially because I said that I tend to attract bisexual girls.

WTF is up with that???

 

She then texted me "Fine b a pussy no gentleman would leave a girl by herself n a bar!" (Those typos are hers, not mine.)

I would have replied with "then maybe I'm not a gentleman..."

[tanbark813]

Just remember for the future that people aren't perfect and you can't expect them to be. Sure she might be a private person and not share things with her friends and she might tell a white lie here and there but it doesn't mean that she is untrustworthy. When I'm 10 minutes late or so I usually blame it on transportation and about half the time it's true. So I tell a little white lie about it sometimes, I would still never ever cheat on someone. She may be untrustworthy irrespective of that though and maybe that is what your gut is picking up on.

 

Right. I don't expect her to be perfect nor was I flat out telling her I think she's untrustworthy. But she knew I didn't trust her fully and I was simply explaining why. I was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and assume she meant no harm by the things that triggered suspicion. I wasn't the one who wanted to breakup. However, she expected 100% trust regardless of her actions and the short time we've been together and I don't think that's fair. I really don't think a few concerns on my part merit a breakup.

[tanbark813]

WTF is up with that???

 

I don't know man. I think it's because I'm just so darn adorable.

 

I would have replied with "then maybe I'm not a gentleman..."

 

Not a bad response.

[JS17]

I really don't think a few concerns on my part merit a breakup.

I don't either. My ex said to me that he didn't know if he could be with someone who didn't trust him. I assured him that I did and then he cheated on me. I think people that want 100% trust so soon don't really understand what trust is. Kind of like believing that you love someone after knowing them for a short period of time.

 

It's always tough to tell what's going on when you only hear one side of the story but while nothing strikes me as being particularly wrong with her, my gut after reading it tells me you did the right thing. I have to strongly agree with newbby's post

maybe she felt like she wasnt perfect enough for you. i dont mean this as a criticism to you, but if somebody questions you on small things you do, then you wonder if they will accept you and love you warts and all. just a thought.

I think this is how I would feel after having that conversation with you. The picking at my every action would leave me feeling like you wanted me to be perfect and that will never happen. I've been there before, trust me, its an awful feeling. BUT, you said that you recognize that this is a problem of yours and it's always a good thing when you recognize your own problems. Maybe it's something you can work on or openly address when it happens the next time.

 

p.s. my ex used to leave extremely inappropriate comments for female "friends" on myspace where he thought I wouldn't see them. I never said anything but I wish I had. Maybe that contributed to my gut feeling that you did the right thing.

[basscatcher]

I feel for you..

 

Only 2 months and she is already emotionally unstable?

Sounds to me like there is more going on then you are aware of.

 

Sounds also like it was a uncomfortable situation and it got on a roller coaster and just didn't slow down for either of you to think through where the conversation was going and how you each felt about the questions and feelings posed. Emotions, suspicions, and wrong choice of words and not listening to the actual questions being posed made it fly out of control until it crashed.

 

I'm sure both of you feel a bit like a horses-azz.

You had gutt instinct something was going one but you didn't/don't know what it is. She is emotionally unstable about something and she flipped out without seeing where you were coming from. She jumped to conclusions and then you jumped to conclusions and neither of you made a real effort to step back and evaluate the conversation and what you each truly needed to validate. If she would have kept her emotions in check I don't think this would have flew out of control. You didn't have patience to deal with her emotional behaviour and I'm sure tones of voices feed the discomfort too.

 

I have been in these situations in the past and it is really uncomfortable and kind of confusing.

 

If she was truly interested in you I think she will try contact you to understand the miscommunication, overreactions and see if you two can work it out..

 

Time will tell.

 

This is my opinion and feeling from reading YOUR WHOLE POST......

 

SO DOES THAT MEAN I 'ROCK'!!!!

[tanbark813]

I don't either. My ex said to me that he didn't know if he could be with someone who didn't trust him. I assured him that I did and then he cheated on me. I think people that want 100% trust so soon don't really understand what trust is. Kind of like believing that you love someone after knowing them for a short period of time.

 

Exactly. The ironic thing is that when we first started seeing each other she used to give me a lot of s*** in a half-joking manner for being a player. It bothered me a little because I don't consider myself a player, but I let it go and could understand why she would think that about me. I just assumed that in time she would realize I wasn't that way and trust me more.

 

It's always tough to tell what's going on when you only hear one side of the story but while nothing strikes me as being particularly wrong with her, my gut after reading it tells me you did the right thing. I have to strongly agree with newbby's post I think this is how I would feel after having that conversation with you. The picking at my every action would leave me feeling like you wanted me to be perfect and that will never happen. I've been there before, trust me, its an awful feeling. BUT, you said that you recognize that this is a problem of yours and it's always a good thing when you recognize your own problems. Maybe it's something you can work on or openly address when it happens the next time.

 

I'll have to keep that in mind. I tend to be a bit of a perfectionist and while that can be beneficial in my own pursuits, the flipside is that I tend to be overly critical of others.

[tanbark813]

This is my opinion and feeling from reading YOUR WHOLE POST......

 

SO DOES THAT MEAN I 'ROCK'!!!!

 

It does indeed.

 

Things did kind of get out of control. There were some breaks of silence in the conversation and it wasn't crazy drama or anything, but it did turn into a much bigger argument than it should have been.

[lindya]

It seems like the majority of people fall into one of two camps regarding trust in relationships. It's generally either:

 

1. Trust the other person until you have reason otherwise.

 

or

 

2. Let your trust for the other person be determined by their actions.

 

I fall squarely into #2. My gf falls squarely into #1.

 

Tanbark, this link might be of interest

 

http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/erikson.html

 

Erikson held that the first life dilemma humans are presented with is...to trust or mistrust. If you subscribe to his theory, healthy human development rests to a large extent on how well a child masters the skill of balancing trust (necessary to form and maintain human relationships) with sufficient mistrust to avoid being taken in by every con artist out there.

 

That would indicate that the individual who falls squarely into either #1 or #2 is going to encounter difficulties in relationships. I agree with your suggestion that most people will tend to lean towards one of the two. I suppose the important thing is that you recognise which one is your preferred approach, learn to equip yourself to deal with the difficulties inherent in having that approach - and use caution to avoid being sucked so far into it that you can't find yourself in constant conflict with people who veer towards the opposite approach (eg too trusting as opposed to not being trusting enough).

 

I think it's great that you know which camp you fall into re the trust issue. That places you in a better position to recognise what some of your pitfalls might be when it comes to building up a trusting relationship with someone who takes the view that they shouldn't have to earn anyone's trust.

 

I agree that the latter is an unrealistic view. There are so many different levels on which you can trust a person. Say level 1 is trusting them not to suddenly produce a knife and stab you with it. I doubt anyone who doesn't have a history of such violence should feel obliged to prove that they can be trusted not to do that.

 

On the other hand, level 6 might involve trusting someone so much that you believe they'd risk their life in order to save yours were it in danger. That's a degree of trust which I think most people would say has really has to be earned over a long period of time. Hopefully most of us can trust everyone we know on level 1...but the chances are that you only meet a handful of people in your lifetime that you'd trust on level 6. The question is whether not trusting someone on level 6 means it's impossible to have a decent relationship with them. Personally, I wouldn't trust a partner not to cheat on me unless I trusted them on level 6....and that's a pretty tall order.

[Art_Critic]

Sorry for what you are going thru TB..

 

I think that when she said to just date and not be GF/BF and you said noway that you want it to go forward is trying to have it both ways..

 

Going forward imposes somewhat slight commintment and for there to be commitment there must be trust.

 

she was in a sense saying she didn't trust you by asking to "just date" but then you are asking for more of a commitment by asking it to go forward and that implies that you trust her.

 

I would have been confused if I was her

[alphamale]

It seems like the majority of people fall into one of two camps regarding trust in relationships. It's generally either:

 

1. Trust the other person until you have reason otherwise.

or

2. Let your trust for the other person be determined by their actions

you forgot the third camp:

 

3. Never trust anyone no matter what.

[tanbark813]

Sorry for what you are going thru TB..

 

I think that when she said to just date and not be GF/BF and you said noway that you want it to go forward is trying to have it both ways..

 

Going forward imposes somewhat slight commintment and for there to be commitment there must be trust.

 

she was in a sense saying she didn't trust you by asking to "just date" but then you are asking for more of a commitment by asking it to go forward and that implies that you trust her.

 

I would have been confused if I was her

 

I think it's all a Catch-22. She doesn't want the commitment without trust. But I can't trust without the commitment. That's why I said it was pointless. I may not trust her completely now, but going back to only dating would not help me trust her more. The trust level would either remain the same or lessen. Most likely the latter.

[Art_Critic]

I think it's all a Catch-22. She doesn't want the commitment without trust. But I can't trust without the commitment. That's why I said it was pointless. I may not trust her completely now, but going back to only dating would not help me trust her more. The trust level would either remain the same or lessen. Most likely the latter.

 

I agree that going back to only dating won't help you trust her more.. But trying to resolve the argument with her might help create the trust that you need..

If she gets back in touch with you it might be worth your time to sit down and resolve what just happened between you too..

[tanbark813]

Thanks for the link, lindya. Actually my parents did tend to be somewhat overprotective when I was young and it did lead me to be overly trusting. It wasn't until the last several years that my general trust of people began to erode due to life experiences.

[JS17]

Thanks for the link, lindya. Actually my parents did tend to be somewhat overprotective when I was young and it did lead me to be overly trusting. It wasn't until the last several years that my general trust of people began to erode due to life experiences.

Me too

[Ladywithafan]

I now believe that trust is earned. I used to be too trusting. I think two months is a short time to get into it over the "trust" issue but as woman, I find it hard to believe that she would trust you that fast.

 

A lot of people get into the "little white lie" cycle but that doesn't necessarily mean they're untrustworthy. But when you constantly hear someone make up excuses on why they missed an appointment or making a phone call, you do start to see how the slickness can come out and things get sugarcoated. I've watched my own boyfriend do this.

 

As far as leaving her at the bar...if you said you were going and she stayed, well, that's that. Lady or not it was her choice.

 

As for texting...forget it don't even reply.

[lindya]

Thanks for the link, lindya. Actually my parents did tend to be somewhat overprotective when I was young and it did lead me to be overly trusting. It wasn't until the last several years that my general trust of people began to erode due to life experiences.

 

Kind of makes sense. I suppose that the more trusting you are when you start out, the harder you get hit by life experiences that make you question the wisdom of trusting too much. Hence the importance of taking a bit of time out, following a serious breach of trust, to reflect on things and regain your equilibrium. I think that's what a lot of people come to this board to do...just regain that proper balance of trust v mistrust to prevent too much cynicism from setting in and jeopardising their happiness on a long term basis.