blind_otter Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 Believe me I am no stranger to dealing with alcoholics. My father, brother, my mother (borderline) is one, both of my grandfathers were, a majority of my friends and xbfs liked to party a lot so theres a good chance they may all have been alcoholics or on the road to becoming alcoholics. The bf I had when I moved to the Twin Cites was a mean Dr. Jekyl; Mr. Hyde alcoholic. I was with him for 2 years then I finally had to leave him. He was becoming physically abusive. He has currently been sober for almost a year, attends AA meetings almost every evening and bible study on the evenings he deosn't have a AA meeting. If I would have stayed with him he wouldnt have rejoined AA. He wasn't able to be honest with himself or me about our relationship. He and I are phone friends now, we don't see each other. When he needs to talk to someone about life, his gf or xgf, work, or just to share a happy milestone in his life he calls me to share. He knows I will tell him what I think and get in his face if I need too. He knows I wont lie to him and that I genuinely care about people. So as you can see I am no stranger to Alcoholism and dealing with Alcoholics. I am not the kind of person to just bail on someone because they have a problem unless it is hurting me. I believe everyone needs support and friend. NO one is perfect and I beleive we all have room for growth, healing and mostly love... As long as Mr. L (Charlie) doesn't become abusive or a cheater I will not bail on him. I am an alcoholic. Just to preface what I have to say. Have you ever been to an Al-Anon meeting, or attended regularly? With your past history of close relationships with alcoholics, especially as a child, have you explored any issues you may have regarding alcoholism? You mention that you suspect he is an alcoholic, but there is no abuse involved. As an addict and alcoholic, I must object. There is abuse involved. He is abusing himself. Hearing this made me wonder, because self-esteem is such an issue with alcoholics, who sometimes overcompensate (I do this) - they dress very fashionably, and try everything to attempt to PROJECT an image of a person who loves and accepts themselves and does not need to abuse an intoxicant to numb their feelings. Alcohlics can get "lost" in their relationships, seeking external fulfillment for what they feel they lack internally (that sense of love and acceptance that you should feel for themselves) -- unfortunatley, adult children of alcoholics are tailor-made for these types of codependent alcoholics, because they seek to give the love and acceptance, subconsciously repeating the relationships from their childhood in an attempt to "correct" what they feel went wrong in the past. There is information available through Al-Anon, or on the internet, regrding the specific issues that adult children of alcoholics face in their intimate relationships. I urge you to explore this information, but ultimately it is your choice. I don't think your lover is a bad man, of course. From what I've read, he sounds pretty cool. But maybe instead of focusing on what he does to you, try to understand your REACTIONS to him, and figure out how to address those things ACTIVELY. all the best.
Author basscatcher Posted January 5, 2006 Author Posted January 5, 2006 blind_otter-- Yes I have done a lot of research with Al-Anon. I work up near a Al-Anon Center which has a library of literature, books and councelors on hand 6 days a week. I have not attended any meetings but I have had lots of individual counceling with psychologist's regarding Co-dependant behaviors and many other possible issues I could have been dealing with or have dealt with. I have read lots about dealing with alcoholics and understanding how to cope, live with and how to live my life not around the alcoholic but for myself and my child etc etc. I have been involved in support groups since I was a pre-teen because my mother was president of a Divorced, Widowed and Seperated group for 4 years. All those groups use the 12 steps. I am also strong in my Catholic faith so I have always leaned on my beliefs for strength and support too. I do not say lightly that I am no stranger to counceling and support groups. I know I am just as much a part of the cylce of abuse because I have been in it as a bystandard, witness, wife, lover, daughter, girlfriend and friend. I am not green or wet behind the ears regarding how to cope and take care of myself when dealing with an alcoholic. Support systems help tremendously when I need to recharge my batteries. I know when I have cater to their illness. I have learned to watch how I react and act towards situations regarding drinking, controlling behaviours, manipulation, guilt, self-piety, drunken emotional impulses. I have been through it all and sought out help in dealing with these behaviors. With a little more training I probably could be a advocate for these situations. (Which I have considered!!) Thank you for your concern and advice, it is nice to know there are people in LS who are knowledgable and able to give good direction to others when in need.. You gave great advice and the way you delivered it by speaking about your knowledge of it was wonderful..
SmoochieFace Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 I believe he is a alcoholic (on beer) but he doesn't show any signs of abuse or any embarrassing traits or habits that I would be uncomfortable with. I only fear his health because of excessive drinking. He likes to kick back about a 6 pk of Miller Lite a night.. When he does get intoxicated and I'm driving that night he becomes extrememly attentive to me, he talks up a storm with me, he flirts heavily, he laughs and smiles more. He likes to grab my belt loops and pull me close to him but he doesnt wrap his arms around me. So I get a drunk version of his real self. Drunk people usually don't have much of a concious and therefore show there true colors.. He is not a angry type of person. He is very fun, flirty, lively and social. Oh boy... bad news here. Seems to me that you are heading for trouble with this guy... sorry, my opinion. Now... take a look at what you wrote here: So I get a drunk version of his real self. Drunk people usually don't have much of a concious and therefore show there true colors. Is this what you REALLY want? Or is this simply what you are *used to*? Why would you want a guy who can only *be himself* while on the bottle? *shaking my head*
Touche Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 Only think I wanted to say on this is that yes...he's an alcoholic. We all agree on that BUT right now he's one of those happy alkies...showing his good side, etc. Well, after he gets to know you well and the honeymoon is over he might show a side of him that you're not seeing now when he's drinking. It might start out in a subtle way. Watch for any changes with you WHILE he's drinking. He might pick an unreasonable fight (something he wouldn't do when NOT drinking) or he might become sullen and not the happy-go-lucky drinker you're used to. I'm not saying run for the hills or anything just be aware of ANY subtle changes in his behavior towards you over the next several months. I'm curious, does he acknowledge that he has a drinking problem? Has this come up at all? He sounds like my ex-husband. He was emotionally unavailable most of the time but when he drank I'd get a little bit more out of him emotionally...until it turned ugly that is. I once asked him why he's so stingy with the "I love you's" and he said because he doesn't want to overuse it. That it will lose its meaning...what a crock of shyt! He didn't kiss me hello when he came home for work or kiss me goodbye when he left either. Something that always hurt me. Yeah, it's a small thing but what would it have cost him, if it made ME happy to do that? He sounds like a good guy, really...just be careful and watch for any subtle changes. I'd also talk to him about how you need certain things emotionally. And I'd ask him straight out? "Can you give me those things?" Tell him the clothes, etc. are nice but you can't put a price on the emotional things you need. And just ask him if he can provide that. Watch CAREFULLY how he answers. Does he hesitate? Does he laugh? Let us know and good luck!
alphamale Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 I once asked him why he's so stingy with the "I love you's" and he said because he doesn't want to overuse it. That it will lose its meaning...what a crock of shyt! Personally i think your ex-h was correct TOUCHE'.... let me give you an example. If you have two people and one talks all the time and the second talks on rare occasions then who's opinion would you put more weight on? People who talk less usually have a lot more weight on their words. Another example TOUCHE is that if I took you out to a 4-star restaurnat every nite for dinner and spend $300 then dining at a 4-star establishment would mean little or nothing to you. Now, on the other hand, if I took you to a 4-star restaurant once a year it would have much more value to you.
blind_otter Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 Good, I'm glad you've been exposed. Hell, I went and got a BS in psychology for all my objective knowledge, it has been my albatross to try to apply it to a clear vision of my own interpersonal handicaps. I would never in a million years give an alcholic a chance with me. HOnestly, I don't think you should, either. You're worth more than that. I would never condone his daily drinking habit, or walk on eggshells, or not mention it. Alcohol and/or drug abuse should always be a deal breaker. The person indulging is incapable of having an authentic relationship until they conquer their personal demons. My point is - I realize you aren't green when it comes to dealing with an alcohlic. But if you have healed in regards to your past, you wouldn't stop to even TRY to deal with someone like that. At this point in my life the only alcoholic I would get involved with is the alcoholic who has gotten treatment, because addicts have to know we are always addicts and alcoholics, even in recovery. What concerns me is this statement "I know when to cater to their illness." This is a dangerous game. Just dealing with alcoholics can trigger emotional reactions from your past that you may not even clearly identify. Human beings are at the mercy of many unconscious emotional reactions, the key is to identify when you experience them and establish contingency plans. What I read in this thread is a constant undercurrent of "I'm not worthy/I'm not good enough" -- if you are familiar with the 12 steps, you are familiar with the common moral deficits of the addict - number one, importantly, is fear. Our lives are ruled by fear. I read fear in your posts, fear of humiliation, fear of having your pride hurt (pride is another character defect that addicts suffer from).... If you truely felt that you were worthy, that YOU (as you are) are fine and wonderful, then the gifts wouldn't disturb you. His extravagent lifestyle (being HIS lifestyle) shouldn't affect you, because you should be satisfied with the way you live you life and not feel that it is "less than" (I think this is bad word choice, but I'll go with it), you would view the gifts as a delightful addition to your already satisfying lifestyle. I am not trying to attack you, but I am challenging you to look at your situation from a different place. You are obviously uncomfortable with something. But for some reason I don't think it's the gifts.
Author basscatcher Posted January 5, 2006 Author Posted January 5, 2006 Oh boy... bad news here. Seems to me that you are heading for trouble with this guy... sorry, my opinion. Now... take a look at what you wrote here: So I get a drunk version of his real self. Drunk people usually don't have much of a concious and therefore show there true colors. Is this what you REALLY want? Or is this simply what you are *used to*? Why would you want a guy who can only *be himself* while on the bottle? *shaking my head* I respect your opinion Smoochie!! But I don't believe all people who are alcoholics are bad nor do I believe all alcoholics make others lives miserable. My former step-father was an alcoholic. That man could put away the beer like breathing air. He was the most amazing, loving, adorable, kind, caring man I have ever met. He died in his late 50s of a massive heart attack. He was more of a father to me then my own dad. My mother and him dated for 19 years before marrying. They were waiting for my brother to graduate and move out on his own. He didn't want to come into our home and be the head of household. He didn't want to try to replace or take over being our dad even though he was the male role we had in our lives. He was an amazing man and he was an alcoholic. I will not bail on someone just because they have problems. Problems can be fixed and sometimes a persons faults do not hurt anyone directly. He maybe damaging his own health but who of us doesn't harm ourselves. I binge smoke on the weekends when I'm out dancing and drinking with my friends and Charlie. At times I like to over do the partying (like my birthday or a big celebration) I feel the effects of it the next day. (thats why I chose not to get intoxicated very often.. Yuck...) I don't always eat right. I like fast food and I eat a lot of processed foods. I don't take my vitamins and minerals like I'm suppose to and I don't regularly exercise only with my daily activities or dancing on the weekends. We all have areas where we are not healthy that doesn't mean we are bad people. Until he shows signs of abuse I plan to enjoy him. As with any relationship we are ALWAYS on guard. The only person we really know is ourselves and that can be questionable sometimes. Relationships are about the differences and the similaritys. If you can't handle your partner being different then dont get involved.. I love the dynamics of being involved with someone. I love the surprises, the differences, the challenges, I love discovery, mystery, I love the give and take and the lessons for all of it. Even when it gets hard or fails I look back at the lessons. I love Life even when it is challenging and very hard. I have also come to know that alcoholics are typically the most sensitive, caring, loving, people on the inside. They don't know how to cope with the struggles because they didn't learn it when growing up from family and friends. Most people now days don't have coping skills or not enough of them. I for one know I will continue learning coping skills for the rest of my life. Thanks Smooch for your opinion. It is much appreciated.
lilmoma1973 Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 Alright, I'm a little bit troubled with a few things. I sure wish men came with instruction manuals or a LCD panel on the back of their heads that we could just push some buttons to get out answers directly. Mr. L and are doing wonderful for starters. My love life is still amazing with him. I have fallen head-over-heels in love:love: with this man in 3 months time. He is just amazing.. But......... with that comes the confusion of dealing with another personality and never knowing what is going on inside of them. Alright-- How do you know if a man is in love with you or falling in love with you. I have always been told that actions speak louder then words. So what if no words are being said and all you see is the man performing actions? I mean, he is always buying me stuff!! Why do men who have money buy and buy and buy and buy for their woman? Everytime I let my guard down he goes out and buys something for me. I have practically a new wardrode of going out/clubbing clothes, belts, hats and perfume. He calls me every day (yesterday he called me 3 times. ). We were on the phone till 1:30am and he is pushing me to go shopping with him this weekend (for me!) He wants to buy more jeans, 2-pairs of heeled boots, and another hat (one he likes -its flippin orange).. He is just nuts about buying me stuff. He is planning to buy a 2005 Big Dog Chopper this summer and he is dreaming of having me on the back of it with my legs wrapped around him while driving to the club, lodge, bowl or where ever we go. This man includes me in just about everything and wants to constantly shower me with material gifts. My family and friends tell me if he wants to do it then let him but I am very uncomfortable with it. Tears are welling up in my eyes right now because I am falling so far behind on my bills; my income doesn't meet my basic living expenses and I dont' splurge on anything and here he is buying me new clothes and accessories and I can't even pay my bills. I have made sublte comments to him if he wants to spend money on me then to help me with my basic living expenses. He smiles and says "you will be fine," Yet he still buys me material stuff and I'm am falling more and more behind on my living expenses (I am looking for a different job. I can't survivie off of $27,000 a year raising a child alone.) I Know Mr. L is interested in me cause he comes to see me almost everyday (we live 20 minutes apart across the metro), he calls me every day without missing a day, he is constantly buying me material gifts but he NEVER tells me how he feels about me. When we are out he rarely looks at me; he is always busy looking around at everything going on around us. My gf says when I am not paying attention to him he watches me and looks at me but he wont look me in the eyes much. If he does lock eyes with me he kind of blushes and looks away while saying "What?" in a strong tone with a smile on his face. He rarely touches me in public unless he has about a 6 pack of beer in him. He doesn't reach out to hug me, hold me and rarely kisses me unless he is 2-sheets in the wind! What is with him? Is he just that shy he can't feel free to reach out and touch me. My God he touches me when we are behind closed doors and getting freaky. Then he is all over me.. I have never been involved with a man who isn't affectionate or touchy feely and it's kinda making me feel like I'm not attractive enough for him. He buys me clothes, belts, hats, shoes, perfume, He wrote me a check and basically pushed me into a nail salon and ordered me to get my nails done with a french manicure. So NOW I have Arcrylic Nails and have been trying to adjust to them. He is trying to talk me into designing my own design and having it tatoo'd on my low back. He wants to buy me a 'bar ring' so I can wear it when we or I go out. He is very much a gentleman to me and treats me with more respect then I have ever been given in my life by any man. It is just so weird and also confusing. I want to hear him tell me how he feels about me. I want him to reach out and hold me close and cuddle with me. I have expressed this to him yet he still wants to primarily shower me with gifts and spend time with me but still with limited touch and affection.. I reach out to him and I give him the attention I WANT to give him which is a lot. The man is spoiled with physical attention in all ways from me but I want it reciprocated.. Everything he does--are they actions that say "I love you" without having to say the words or express them by physical touch? You know Peda that is so true , if men came with a manual we would always know what to expect!! Too bad they don't wouldn't it make our lives much easier !! :lmao:
Touche Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 Personally i think your ex-h was correct TOUCHE'.... let me give you an example. If you have two people and one talks all the time and the second talks on rare occasions then who's opinion would you put more weight on? People who talk less usually have a lot more weight on their words. Another example TOUCHE is that if I took you out to a 4-star restaurnat every nite for dinner and spend $300 then dining at a 4-star establishment would mean little or nothing to you. Now, on the other hand, if I took you to a 4-star restaurant once a year it would have much more value to you. Alpha, I don't agree with your analogies at all...especially the first one. The fact that one person talks all the time would have no bearing on how much stock I would put in what that person says. It's would depend on what they're SAYING. If the talk is meaningless, jibber jabber then I agree but if the person who is talking all the time has important and meaningful things to say then it wouldn't lessen the fact that they talked all the time, wouldn't lessen the importance of what they had to say. See what I mean? I'd still put stock in their words. As for the second one well...I don't know. I think I'd still appreciate it. It would still have value to me. I mean I eat every day and it doesn't make eating any less of a pleasure. Should I skip eating for a few meals so that I can appreciate my meals more? See, so my ex-husband WASN'T correct and that is why he's my EX- husband! Good luck with that approach by the way!
lilmoma1973 Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 I OWN IT ALREADY... :lmao: I guess I need to reread it.. Yeah me too!! really interesting book Peda!!!
lilmoma1973 Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 I respect your opinion Smoochie!! But I don't believe all people who are alcoholics are bad nor do I believe all alcoholics make others lives miserable. My former step-father was an alcoholic. That man could put away the beer like breathing air. He was the most amazing, loving, adorable, kind, caring man I have ever met. He died in his late 50s of a massive heart attack. He was more of a father to me then my own dad. My mother and him dated for 19 years before marrying. They were waiting for my brother to graduate and move out on his own. He didn't want to come into our home and be the head of household. He didn't want to try to replace or take over being our dad even though he was the male role we had in our lives. He was an amazing man and he was an alcoholic. I will not bail on someone just because they have problems. Problems can be fixed and sometimes a persons faults do not hurt anyone directly. He maybe damaging his own health but who of us doesn't harm ourselves. I binge smoke on the weekends when I'm out dancing and drinking with my friends and Charlie. At times I like to over do the partying (like my birthday or a big celebration) I feel the effects of it the next day. (thats why I chose not to get intoxicated very often.. Yuck...) I don't always eat right. I like fast food and I eat a lot of processed foods. I don't take my vitamins and minerals like I'm suppose to and I don't regularly exercise only with my daily activities or dancing on the weekends. We all have areas where we are not healthy that doesn't mean we are bad people. Until he shows signs of abuse I plan to enjoy him. As with any relationship we are ALWAYS on guard. The only person we really know is ourselves and that can be questionable sometimes. Relationships are about the differences and the similaritys. If you can't handle your partner being different then dont get involved.. I love the dynamics of being involved with someone. I love the surprises, the differences, the challenges, I love discovery, mystery, I love the give and take and the lessons for all of it. Even when it gets hard or fails I look back at the lessons. I love Life even when it is challenging and very hard. I have also come to know that alcoholics are typically the most sensitive, caring, loving, people on the inside. They don't know how to cope with the struggles because they didn't learn it when growing up from family and friends. Most people now days don't have coping skills or not enough of them. I for one know I will continue learning coping skills for the rest of my life. Thanks Smooch for your opinion. It is much appreciated. I agree with you Peda ,just because they are an alcoholic doesn't mean they are a bad person!! They just turn to the bottle instead of working through their issues!! Now unless they are abusive because of the drinking that is another thing!!
blind_otter Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 Pada, I'll say this and then leave it alone... I agree, re: "sensitive, caring, loving, people on the inside. They don't know how to cope with the struggles because they didn't learn it when growing up from family and friends." But as an alcoholic who is actively seeking treatment, let me add that I am now learning that I cannot inflict myself on anyone until I have addressed my sobriety ON MY OWN. Problems can be fixed and sometimes a persons faults do not hurt anyone directly This is codependency talking. I challenge you to see this. Problems are fixed by the individual, and those faults DO hurt someone directly -- the person with the faults! A daily alcohol habit hurts the body. The alcoholic faces liver failure, heart attach, stroke. My uncle died a slow, painful death from a stroke. My father is dying slowly and painfully, terminally ill from the condition that his body is in from his alcohol abuse. He was never abusive or hurtful, he would drink all night when he got home from work until he passed out. But Goddamn it I feel GUILTY for not trying to make my Pops stop drunking. I feel like I contributed to his slow, agonizing death with my silence. For God's sake, it's not about how they treat others. That is ancillary, though important to address if they DO hurt others....it's about that person. I know you have the compassion to understand that. I was never abusive to anyone but myself. I have always been a loving, doting girlfriend, I was a loving wife, I did everything to make my partners happy. But in the end it wasn't about how I treated them. It was about how I was treating myself. I am not telling you to break up with this man, but at least you have open eyes and know what you are facing. And you take responsibility for your own choices. But do not try to validate them with excuses for why his alcoholism is OK. He's a good man, even when he's drunk. As a recovering addict, this is painful to read. Because my family said the same thing about me. It only helped me to continue my self-deception. By condoning the alcoholism you help him to restrict his own life to being dependent on alcohol to express emotions, to socialize, to deaden his feelings. No alcoholic is necessarily a bad person but that NEVER makes their dependency OK. And to help them continue is hurtful. Alcohlism is never ok, it should never be ok. Ok. I've said my piece. No insult intended but I shall unsubscribe now. It's me, my issues, that prevent me from contributing further. Good luck to you.
SmoochieFace Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 You are very welcome. You also didn't answer the questions I posed and I find that interesting. My former step-father was an alcoholic. That man could put away the beer like breathing air. He was the most amazing, loving, adorable, kind, caring man I have ever met. He died in his late 50s of a massive heart attack. He was more of a father to me then my own dad. My mother and him dated for 19 years before marrying. They were waiting for my brother to graduate and move out on his own. He didn't want to come into our home and be the head of household. He didn't want to try to replace or take over being our dad even though he was the male role we had in our lives. He was an amazing man and he was an alcoholic. This appears to mean that you are going for what you are used to (alcoholics), IMO. I will not bail on someone just because they have problems. Problems can be fixed and sometimes a persons faults do not hurt anyone directly. He maybe damaging his own health but who of us doesn't harm ourselves. What would it take for you to *bail* on someone then? Where is that line that divides *harmless fun drunk* from *abusive nasty drunk*? You said that he says "What?" sharply when you look at him for an extended period of time. He sounds like he's angry when he does that. Is that a good thing in your opinion? Yes, problems can be fixed but ONLY by the person himself in that he needs to WANT to fix them. You will not be able to fix his problems for him... he's not a *project* for you. Yes, he is damaging his health by the drinking. Your stepdad died at a fairly young age from a heart attack. Care to take a guess as to what may have been a big factor in causing his premature death? Would you want to go through that with Charlie in the next few years possibly? We all have areas where we are not healthy that doesn't mean we are bad people. No one has said anything about you or Charlie being *bad people*. How did that come into this discussion? I'm just curious... As with any relationship we are ALWAYS on guard. Sorry, but I do not agree with this. In my experience, the best relationships are those in which I do not need to be *on guard*. It's only when you get involved with *questionable* people then being on guard may or may not be a natural response to it. So *any* relationship doesn't apply. Seems to me that, subconsciously, you believe Charlie IS *questionable*. If you can't handle your partner being different then dont get involved. It depends on WHAT the differences are. I wouldn't even consider getting involved with a woman who has drug/alcohol issues. No way. I have also come to know that alcoholics are typically the most sensitive, caring, loving, people on the inside. They can be sensitive, caring, loving people but they still have a major problem. The fact that they can be sensitive, caring, loving does not negate the fact that they have a disease that will not go away with repeated justifications and rationalisations of its resultant behaviours.
Author basscatcher Posted January 5, 2006 Author Posted January 5, 2006 Only think I wanted to say on this is that yes...he's an alcoholic. We all agree on that BUT right now he's one of those happy alkies...showing his good side, etc. Well, after he gets to know you well and the honeymoon is over he might show a side of him that you're not seeing now when he's drinking. It might start out in a subtle way. Watch for any changes with you WHILE he's drinking. He might pick an unreasonable fight (something he wouldn't do when NOT drinking) or he might become sullen and not the happy-go-lucky drinker you're used to. I'm not saying run for the hills or anything just be aware of ANY subtle changes in his behavior towards you over the next several months. I'm curious, does he acknowledge that he has a drinking problem? Has this come up at all? He sounds like my ex-husband. He was emotionally unavailable most of the time but when he drank I'd get a little bit more out of him emotionally...until it turned ugly that is. I once asked him why he's so stingy with the "I love you's" and he said because he doesn't want to overuse it. That it will lose its meaning...what a crock of shyt! He didn't kiss me hello when he came home for work or kiss me goodbye when he left either. Something that always hurt me. Yeah, it's a small thing but what would it have cost him, if it made ME happy to do that? He sounds like a good guy, really...just be careful and watch for any subtle changes. I'd also talk to him about how you need certain things emotionally. And I'd ask him straight out? "Can you give me those things?" Tell him the clothes, etc. are nice but you can't put a price on the emotional things you need. And just ask him if he can provide that. Watch CAREFULLY how he answers. Does he hesitate? Does he laugh? Let us know and good luck! I am watching carefully. I have relived many experiences in new relationships dealing with drinkers. I usually recognize the problems by 6 months at the latest. I have mentioned to him that I noticed he likes to kick back a few beers in the evenings. I have seen him go 2 weeks without a drink also when he was dieting. I told him beer bloats you and if he stopped drinking he would see the difference. So he did it and I was right.. He seems to have cut back a little bit but he likes his Miller Lite. As long as he doesn't show signs of being controlling and abusive I can live with his beer drinking. He doesnt care much for hard alcohol so rarely rarely drinks it. I have only seen him drink a mixed drink when we were at my gf and her bfs apt. I have a gutt feeling he might start to be more expressive in his feelings for me through his actions. Last night he said I was a breath of fresh air and if he wasn't really interested in me he wouldn't call me as much or drive across the metro to see me even for an hour.. He calls me when he is plowing for a break, he calls me when he has his kids, he calls me when hes hanging out at his brothers house. He calls me no matter where he is. I teased him and said "I must really be on your mind a lot if you call me from everywhere". He replied (with a smile in his voice, "Maybe!" then he giggles.. I can't express how well he treats me and how kind he speaks to me.. I get no attitude from him at all. He states that in 13 1/2 years he was with his XW and the 3 yrs he was with his Xgf he never argued or yelled at either of them. He said fighting isnt worth it. He knew I was a little upset last weekend and told me to get over to his place (11:30 pm) and we talked until I felt better. He shows he cares about me and about my feelings but he doesn't express in words how he feels about me. He hasn't came out and said "I like you", 'I love you', 'I'm falling in love with you', 'Im falling for you' or anythng like that. Its all in actions... He makes little comments that are feeling related but never direct. Time will tell.
SmoochieFace Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 :lmao: hahahahahahahaha :lmao: whirling whirling whirling whirling Probably not a good idea to choose user names that give away the person's identity... let's just say that Google has a way of helping people find other people... even revealing phone numbers and addresses.
Author basscatcher Posted January 5, 2006 Author Posted January 5, 2006 l, I went and got a BS in psychology for all my objective knowledge, it has been my albatross to try to apply it to a clear vision of my own interpersonal handicaps. This is why I took some course in it and why I have done my own research. I wish I would have gotten a BS in it but I don't believe I have the abiliity to keep my personal emotions disconnected from other peoples situations. I would never in a million years give an alcholic a chance with me. HOnestly, I don't think you should, either. You're worth more than that. I would never condone his daily drinking habit, or walk on eggshells, or not mention it. Alcohol and/or drug abuse should always be a deal breaker. The person indulging is incapable of having an authentic relationship until they conquer their personal demons. I don't really condone his drinking' at least conciously, I refuse to walk on eggshells again in my life. That is a feeling that has caused me a lot of health issues. I open my mouth too much sometimes about what I think and feel. I speak up about things that bother me. The person indulging may not be able to have a healthy relationship but they can have a relationship that can be possitive for them in there realization and healing. Without people willing to be understanding, firm and care about anothers well being there wouldn't be any rehab or support groups. I am the kind of person who likes to help others. I have always subjected myself in these kinds of situations. I chose to help. I want to help. I cannot walk away from someone who is troubled, hurting, or in need. Because I am this way I have grown and learned my own weaknesses, faults, dependency's and I have searched and recieved my own help in my healing. But if you have healed in regards to your past, you wouldn't stop to even TRY to deal with someone like that. This is where I am different from the average person.. When I have learned something I want to share it with others. I want to help others. I have been this way since I was a child. I use to take care of my babydolls when I was 2-3 yrs old. My nature is caretaker, I care about everyone, I see good in everyone. I cannot and will not walk away from someone unless they are destroying my life and health. I know we can only hold someones hand so far but the person themselves needs to help themself.. No one can help another person unless the person wants help and is willing to work at it. I can only be supportive and give some guidance if accepted. At this point in my life the only alcoholic I would get involved with is the alcoholic who has gotten treatment, because addicts have to know we are always addicts and alcoholics, even in recovery. If I was an alcoholic or addict it would probably be of my interest to not be involved with someone who is a addict of alcoholic for my own personal well-being. (fear of relapsing) But I am not an alcoholic, I have never done a drug in my life. What concerns me is this statement "I know when to cater to their illness." This is a dangerous game. Just dealing with alcoholics can trigger emotional reactions from your past that you may not even clearly identify. Human beings are at the mercy of many unconscious emotional reactions, the key is to identify when you experience them and establish contingency plans. Either you did a typo or I did---I know when I have catered to their illness in the past when I was growing and learning. I was becoming a enabler of their illnesses. I blamed myself for their problems because I believed I did something wrong to cause their illness. I know now I am not.. As for triggering emotional reactions from my past--those are opportunities for me to grow myself. To deal with those incidences and deal with my own demons of wrong thinking and actions. What I read in this thread is a constant undercurrent of "I'm not worthy/I'm not good enough" -- if you are familiar with the 12 steps, you are familiar with the common moral deficits of the addict - number one, importantly, is fear. Our lives are ruled by fear. I read fear in your posts, fear of humiliation, fear of having your pride hurt (pride is another character defect that addicts suffer from).... I do have low-self esteem. This I do know. I have a physical flaw that really has bothered me since I was a child. I have never gotten over it. It does cause me to feel unworthy, unwanted, unliked, undesireable, etc. etc. I feel for persons with physical disabilities because I know the stares, looks, expressions, treatment, comments from rude and uncaring people. It hurts, It scares you for life. If you truely felt that you were worthy, that YOU (as you are) are fine and wonderful, then the gifts wouldn't disturb you. His extravagent lifestyle (being HIS lifestyle) shouldn't affect you, because you should be satisfied with the way you live you life and not feel that it is "less than" (I think this is bad word choice, but I'll go with it), you would view the gifts as a delightful addition to your already satisfying lifestyle. I agree. I am going through another transition in life. I like the gifts but I am afraid of becoming attached to constant showering of them. I know I could fall into a dependency on it because I do have a co-dependant nature. I am aware of myself so there is genuine concern but I will not run from the problem I will face it and let it make me stronger. I am not trying to attack you, but I am challenging you to look at your situation from a different place. You are obviously uncomfortable with something. But for some reason I don't think it's the gifts. I am not veiwing anyones comments as attacks. We are all here to share of ourselves for ourselves and for others. It's not the gifts themselves that scare me. It is me afraid of becoming dependent on needing gifts for affirmation. I am afraid of wanting them like a child always wanting junk food and toys.. I have a fear of becoming addicted. I know children of alcoholics, abuse, neglect, etc etc have a higher risk of dysfunction in their lives. I know I have lots of dysfunctions; I just dont want to make them worse or develop new ones. I am no better then Charlie. I have my own problems.. Don't we all!!
Outcast Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 I would never in a million years give an alcholic a chance with me. I agree. I will not bail on someone just because they have problems. Problems can be fixed and sometimes a persons faults do not hurt anyone directly. This is, verbatim, the voice of the 'rescuer' (a hair's breadth away from the 'codependent'.) Problems can be fixed but he fixes his problems with booze. This is not good. that doesn't mean we are bad people. Until he shows signs of abuse I plan to enjoy him. This is the huge mistake that humans continue to make - thinking people are 'good people' or 'bad people'. My abuser was not a 'bad person'. He was a person so filled with anger and self-loathing that his anger had to burst outwards. When not drinking, he was kind, considerate, loving, fun, witty, etc etc etc. It's NEVER about someone's being a 'bad person'. It's about whether you can have a good relationship with someone or a dysfunctional one and relationships with alcoholics are dsyfunctional, period. If you can't handle your partner being different then dont get involved.. That doesn't apply, Pada. Having an addiction is not just 'being different'. It is about having a serious issue. I have also come to know that alcoholics are typically the most sensitive, caring, loving, people on the inside. They don't know how to cope with the struggles because they didn't learn it when growing up from family and friends. And they never learn so they seek 'caretakers' like you who will, they think, help them cope. It is not a good thing to be someone unable to cope with life, Pada. Yes, he deserves sympathy and even love, but as a friend, not a partner. As long as he doesn't show signs of being controlling and abusive I can live with his beer drinking. He doesnt care much for hard alcohol so rarely rarely drinks it. I have only seen him drink a mixed drink when we were at my gf and her bfs apt. I've got news for you. The smarter ones won't show their controlling or abusive sides until you live with them. My aunt went out with her bf for over a year and then married him. What she never knew is that after he took her home, he went home and continued to drink. I have a friend who went out with someone for a year and a half and he was able to hide his alcoholism from her all that time. He, too, could abstain quite easily when she was around but would drink LOTS when she was gone. Last night he said I was a breath of fresh air and if he wasn't really interested in me he wouldn't call me as much or drive across the metro to see me even for an hour.. Of course! You're his salvation and his rescuer. Mine even quit smoking for me. They can't manage so they CLING to the women they think will 'save' them from their issues. And now I think all this business of him making you over in his image and to his tastes is a VERY bad sign when added to the boozing. It's the first sign that he's controlling. Don't be fooled, Pada. The smart controlling ones are very well able to hide their major flaws from everybody for a long, long time. You'll see. Gradually, he'll exert more control. If you refuse to do his bidding, he'll get annoyed. Refuse to get the tattoo and see how much he'll argue with you to do it. I'm telling you, Pada, that anybody looks like a saint in the first few months. But now the cracks are starting to show. I don't want to burst a bubble but I'm feeling warning vibes from here. This is where I am different from the average person.. When I have learned something I want to share it with others. I want to help others. It's dangerous to view oneself as the grand helper of persons and 'different from the average person'. This image of yourself will lead you to think that you can 'help' everyone. The hard and sad fact of life is that there are people who simply cannot be 'helped' at all and you can - and likely will - wring every last bit of yourself out until you're a dried out husk in your attempt to 'help' them. People like that have to help themselves, Pada. Don't try to fool yourself about this any more.
Author basscatcher Posted January 5, 2006 Author Posted January 5, 2006 I agree with you Peda ,just because they are an alcoholic doesn't mean they are a bad person!! They just turn to the bottle instead of working through their issues!! Now unless they are abusive because of the drinking that is another thing!! True. I have ran into men who don't communicate well. If they give me half a chance they usually learn to open up more by the time we deciede the relationship isn't what we want. Just because a long term relationship wont work out doesn't mean we can't help one another to grow as persons. The abusive Xbf I moved to the twin cities with communicates so much now you cant shut him up. I love it. He has grown so much and is open about his feelings. AA has helped him and so has his bible studies too. He has told me because of me he has learned he said he has thought back to things I said to him in the past about communication and being honest with yourself first, etc etc that he realizes now is true and I was right. He thanked me for planting the seed in his head so he could understand when the time is right. I can't fix people but I can influence them. I can care, I can love, I can grow, I can give and recieve.
alphamale Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 He seems to have cut back a little bit but he likes his Miller Lite. why in god's name would anyone drink that krap. it tastes like piss water.
lilmoma1973 Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 why in god's name would anyone drink that krap. it tastes like piss water. ROFLMAO!! :lmao: All beer to me taste like that!! lol:laugh:
Author basscatcher Posted January 5, 2006 Author Posted January 5, 2006 This is codependency talking. I challenge you to see this. Problems are fixed by the individual, and those faults DO hurt someone directly -- the person with the faults! A daily alcohol habit hurts the body. The alcoholic faces liver failure, heart attach, stroke. My uncle died a slow, painful death from a stroke. My father is dying slowly and painfully, terminally ill from the condition that his body is in from his alcohol abuse. He was never abusive or hurtful, he would drink all night when he got home from work until he passed out. But Goddamn it I feel GUILTY for not trying to make my Pops stop drunking. I feel like I contributed to his slow, agonizing death with my silence. I can understand all that you said here. *Yes I have been diagnosed with a mild co-dependency. I am careful with it because I recognize it. *I know the individual has to fix their own problems and faults but its sometimes if not most of the time helpful to have support. Why do recovering alcoholics have sponsers--for support. *I know alcoholicsare at risk for many illnesses that will end their lives prematurely but anything now days can do that also. Just because someone is an alcoholic doesn't mean that you cant love them or they are unlovable.. I am not telling you to break up with this man, but at least you have open eyes and know what you are facing. And you take responsibility for your own choices. But do not try to validate them with excuses for why his alcoholism is OK. He's a good man, even when he's drunk. As a recovering addict, this is painful to read. Because my family said the same thing about me. It only helped me to continue my self-deception. I understand you. By condoning the alcoholism you help him to restrict his own life to being dependent on alcohol to express emotions, to socialize, to deaden his feelings. I am not one to sit by and not express emotions or not help someone to face theirs. I know how hard it is. At one time I started to bottle up my own and I felt like it was eating me alive from the inside out.
Outcast Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 I can't fix people but I can influence them. I can care, I can love, I can grow, I can give and recieve. Not good enough. Don't be thinking you're God in your ability to heal. I'm telling you that no amount of love, caring, or giving will help most of these folks. Surely you don't think that addicts are that way because they're not loved enough?
newbby Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 it could be: he is buying you things to make you dependent on him, but will not pay your bills because then you wouldnt need anything. he likes you just weak enough that he can manipulate you.
SmoochieFace Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 ...but will not pay your bills because then you wouldnt need anything. I've wondered about that too - why not just pay off her bills instead of giving her tons of *gifts*? Good point - perhaps to be manipulative and keep her around.
Author basscatcher Posted January 5, 2006 Author Posted January 5, 2006 You also didn't answer the questions I posed and I find that interesting.[/quote} here is the question you posed: Is this what you REALLY want? Or is this simply what you are *used to*? Why would you want a guy who can only *be himself* while on the bottle? I guess it is what I am used to. I am familar with it so I have more tolerance and I also don't run from it unless it is abusive to me physcially or mentally to the point to really bothers me. I havent met very many people that can be themselves anyway. Most people hide who they really are under some kind of coverup. The person you live with isn't the same person you know when they are hanging out with their friends, family or co-workers. Most people put on a mask and adjust their behavior to be socially accepted. This appears to mean that you are going for what you are used to (alcoholics), IMO. I am, I guess, used to dealing with alcoholics. Most of the people I have dealt with in my life were drinkers. Maybe cause that is the enviroment I was raised in. Small community, nothing to do, no recreational activities in the community, the town hang out was the liquor store. Almost all the kids in the community partied. I met Charlie through a local dating matchmaking service. I met a few guys online through Match.com and a lot of them were drinkers. I've met guys in college, dances, beach, clubs, even church activities and they all drank. Maybe its just Minnesota. I believe I read somewhere or heard somewhere that alcoholism is concentrated heavier in certain parts of the county and world. A lot depends on the economy, lifestyle, family unity, available resources for activities etc etc. What would it take for you to *bail* on someone then? When I am being threatened harm, verbally abused, physically abused, when finances start to be affected. Where is that line that divides *harmless fun drunk* from *abusive nasty drunk*? It is a fine line. With experience you recognize it easier then you do when you arent familiar with alcoholism. You said that he says "What?" sharply when you look at him for an extended period of time. He sounds like he's angry when he does that. Is that a good thing in your opinion? If you also read you will see I said he smiles and blushes also when he says "what!". He says it sharply but not with anger. He says it more like, out of feeling uncomfortable with me gazing at him. Like he is under the microscope. Wouldn't you get uncomfortable if someone gazed at you for a extended period of time? Yes, problems can be fixed but ONLY by the person himself in that he needs to WANT to fix them. You will not be able to fix his problems for him... he's not a *project* for you. No, I will not change anyone, but I can make suggestions and point out observations. It is up to him to recognize his own faults and do something about them if he wants to. I cannot control anyone nor make anyone be the way I want them. I can only voice my opinion or concern and that is that. He is not a 'project' for me. This I know. If I wanted a project I would get involved with a advocacy group... Yes, he is damaging his health by the drinking. Your stepdad died at a fairly young age from a heart attack. Care to take a guess as to what may have been a big factor in causing his premature death? Would you want to go through that with Charlie in the next few years possibly? My adorable step father smokes 2 1/2 packs of filterless camels and lucky strikes since he was 10 years old. As well as drank 4-6 beers a day (evenings) and got intoxicated on Friday and Saturday nights. So I believe it is a combo of things. No one has said anything about you or Charlie being *bad people*. How did that come into this discussion? I'm just curious... I knew there was a chance some people could start bashing him because he likes to drink. I tend to try to cover all my bases to a degree when there is a possibility of strong negative comments. The more info someone has about a subject the better it is to form opinions and ideas. I can get better feedback and comments with more details. Sorry, but I do not agree with this. In my experience, the best relationships are those in which I do not need to be *on guard*. It's only when you get involved with *questionable* people then being on guard may or may not be a natural response to it. So *any* relationship doesn't apply. Seems to me that, subconsciously, you believe Charlie IS *questionable*. Anyone whom I know is questionable; even my own parents. I'm not severe in it just slightly observant. But if I am on guard where I obsess over it then I think there is definetly something wrong. I think it is normal for most people to be self concious about our behaviours, appearance and attitudes. We want others to like us, approve of us. It is normal.. It depends on WHAT the differences are. I wouldn't even consider getting involved with a woman who has drug/alcohol issues. No way. There is nothing wrong with your values on this. Some people have more tolerance or are doormats. Others chose not to deal with this kind of relationship at all. You are the latter. They can be sensitive, caring, loving people but they still have a major problem. The fact that they can be sensitive, caring, loving does not negate the fact that they have a disease that will not go away with repeated justifications and rationalisations of its resultant behaviours. I am aware that the problem will not go away without a investment from the person. It is him who needs to recognize, admit and then chose to not continue his behaviour. This I know. I chose to stay involved with him at this time. I am getting what I need right now from it. I enjoy his company, his attention, his presence. I enjoy his companionship and I have already learned from knowing him.
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