EMJ Posted December 31, 2005 Posted December 31, 2005 Why are so many people hateful because they could not convice their married or otherwise committed lover to change his/her entire life for them? Going into the situation one usually knows that the other person has a partner, although I understand there are occassional exceptions. It seems kind of immature and silly that people would get so much glee from causing the other person pain when things don't go their way. It looks like many people think they can manipulate the other person through the "magic of sex" and when that fails they want to destroy the other person. I really don't get all this drama and misery.You knew they had a parter, you decided to get involved anyway, you have accepted the terms of the deal. It's very childish to play all these games, especially if you knew the domestic situation when you entered into it.
My_Other_I Posted December 31, 2005 Posted December 31, 2005 Why are so many people hateful because they could not convice their married or otherwise committed lover to change his/her entire life for them? Going into the situation one usually knows that the other person has a partner, although I understand there are occassional exceptions. It seems kind of immature and silly that people would get so much glee from causing the other person pain when things don't go their way. It looks like many people think they can manipulate the other person through the "magic of sex" and when that fails they want to destroy the other person. I really don't get all this drama and misery.You knew they had a parter, you decided to get involved anyway, you have accepted the terms of the deal. It's very childish to play all these games, especially if you knew the domestic situation when you entered into it. When emotions take over, people might do and feel things they normally wouldn't. Bashing might be just a part of healing and coping. I believe that in most cases they say mean things about the Mpartner out of anger, but don't really feel that way. Also, in some cases maybe the MM/W made empty promisses and lied. Each situation is different and we need to look at the posts as posts written in pain and confusion. Even if a person know what he/she is getting into, there is still hope in his/her mind. When that's gone, the world comes crashing down. Just my 2 cents.
lindya Posted December 31, 2005 Posted December 31, 2005 It seems kind of immature and silly that people would get so much glee from causing the other person pain when things don't go their way. I think that glee is a form of relief that they have done something which, on a superficial basis at least, partially restores their ego. Having been on the wrong end of a power imbalance for a lengthy period of time, they take vindictive action that makes them feel as if they have restored the balance. If they were entirely honest with themselves, they would realise that their actions only highlight their pain versus the ex lover's indifference towards them.
Author EMJ Posted December 31, 2005 Author Posted December 31, 2005 "Having been on the wrong end of a power imbalance for a lengthy period of time, they take vindictive action that makes them feel as if they have restored the balance." Your statement is illustrates that point. The fact that a OW/OM will see themselves as the disempowered one is a choice,totally a choice. Making the choice to become involved with someone comes with responsibilities too. They can't play the victim if they knowingly walked into the middle of a committed realtionship. If they choose to feel abused, they are making that choice too. They should probabaly remove themselves until they can manage their emotions and expectations. These are active choices. No one has the right to walk into an exsiting situation, accept it intially and then demand it change when "feelings" start to develop. Being vindictive is sign of weakness that shows your hand as the innapropriate one. It's giving away power that does not get anything back for it. Not too many people feel very good after being vindictive, if anything it's part of that immature grasping that says any connection, even if negative is something worth having. It's not. It's negative and keeps one stuck. I do understand and have had that impulse too. But that's all it is, an emotional impulse, not a good way to make life choices.
lindya Posted January 1, 2006 Posted January 1, 2006 Your statement is illustrates that point. The fact that a OW/OM will see themselves as the disempowered one is a choice,totally a choice. Making the choice to become involved with someone comes with responsibilities too. They can't play the victim if they knowingly walked into the middle of a committed realtionship. If they choose to feel abused, they are making that choice too. They should probabaly remove themselves until they can manage their emotions and expectations. These are active choices. You don't think the OW would already need to have pretty good management of emotions and expectations before she took the step of removing herself from the situation? I'm not generally an advocate for the OW, but what you're saying strikes me as far too simplistic. Human beings are not perfect robots - and most of us, if we're honest have acted in irrational and self-destructive ways at some point. There are some situations that, self-inflicted or not, do result in a person being disempowered. Telling the person "it's your choice to feel disempowered" can be helpful in encouraging them to take some personal responsibility for the situation...but only up to a point. Some people are controlled by their emotions, and they're not going to learn to master those emotions, develop better self-awareness and behave more rationally overnight. The process certainly isn't speeded up by other people telling them to get a grip and make those changes. I don't call that empowering assistance - I just call it being a sideline critic. For people to make the right choices, and do so with a reasonable level of control over their emotions, they need to firstly recognise just what powerful things emotions can be. Acknowledge that for most people, they aren't just things that can be flicked on and off. Emotional intelligence isn't gained through dismissing feelings, drives and instincts. It's gained through understanding them. Learning how and why they sometimes take control and how they can encourage us to act unwisely. Learning to master them and make the right choices maybe takes quite a lot of support for some people - particularly those who didn't have good role models when they were growing up. We're not all equally equipped in the business of living, and what might seem like a straightforward matter of choice to one person may be another person's personal Goliath. So in summary - no, I don't think it's all about choices. If only life were that simple.
scarletletter Posted January 2, 2006 Posted January 2, 2006 I think that it all comes down to expectations and "rules" made at the beginning of the relationship. It has a lot to do with maturity and self control. You certainly have to be mature enough to handle the disappointment. Chances are the MM is not going to leave in most cases, but in some cases, they do leave the wife. It's almost like they want to test the waters before they decide to disrupt their lives. I'm not saying it is the right thing to do, its just my opinion. When things go wrong in the OW/OM relationship, it is only natural for feelings to get out of hand and for the hurt one to do things that they ordinarily wouldn't do. If the ground rules are set in stone prior to the relationship, then their shouldn't be any expectations beyond those ground rules. Its a crazy situation either way. I have been the hurt wife and I have been the OW....neither one is a day at the beach. It takes a tremendous amount of self discipline to keep yourself out of one of these relationships as well as it takes even more self discipline to walk away without causing grief. So it would seem that someone getting into this sort of relationship doesn't have a whole lot of self discipline to start with...myself included.
scarletletter Posted January 2, 2006 Posted January 2, 2006 I might also add that 9 times out of 10, someone has made promises that they find out later they simply cannot keep. That's enough to set someone off, I guess. One should never make promises to the ow/om.
Author EMJ Posted January 2, 2006 Author Posted January 2, 2006 Most people do think they can "handle" things in these extramarital relationships. But as things progress, some for better, many worse, people find that they are no longer interested in the OW/OM or no longer interested in the marriage. They diiscover they are no longer interested in trying to change or fix themselves for the husband or wife. They want to be the person they are NOW. It's not the end of the world. It's only the end of the relationship and you can recover form that.
Lightglowabove Posted January 3, 2006 Posted January 3, 2006 It's not the end of the world. It's only the end of the relationship and you can recover form that. Remember this... "To make an end is to make a beginning. The end is where we start from." - T.S. Eliot It's not bad to end something if it hurts you.
No Stress Lady Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 It's about choices. None of us are robots but we do have to take a degree of responsibility for our own actions and acknowledge that if we enter a committed relationship as a third party then the consequences are NEVER going to be straightforward. If I were considering embarking upon an affair for the first time and asked for the advice of posters on this site (as quite a few people do) I wonder who would be advising caution? I am now contemplating marriage myself for the first time and I have to say that the last thing in the world that would ever threaten my relationship is "the other woman"!!!!!!! That may sound contrary to many but I have never embarked on a marriage-wrecking mission and it's clear to me that a huge majority of the posters here are way, way, WAY out of their depth in the situations they find themselves in. I would also guess that 90% of these affairs will NEVER end in a divorce. I'm not trying to criticise those who are in these situations and hurting terribly but simply trying to point out that you need to be a very strong person to embark on an affair and that includes developing an awareness of your own strengths and weaknesses - which can be hard to do objectively. As EMJ mentioned in a different post, many OW do not realise that they are often actually helping to prop up a marriage. Until the OW decides that they need commitment (and divorce) from the MM (who they knew was married) - at which point it all starts to go horribly wrong...........just read some of the posts........letters to the wife, revenge, ruining Christmas - please - why be so vindictive when you knew the score from outset??????????? I know that this will sound harsh and simplistic but it's not aimed at those who are already over their heads in an affair but more at those who are teetering on the brink for the first time and may be looking at this site to get some different viewpoints......
Author EMJ Posted January 10, 2006 Author Posted January 10, 2006 I'm trying to be helpful and objective, and often I'll get these HOWLS of hissing anger directed back at me, mostly from venegeful women, unfortunately. Just yesterday I was accused by of the writers by one of being an alcoholic, an abuser, and cheater because I advised a wronged wife to please try to move on and not keep demanding to find out who the former OW was if she wanted to heal her marriage. Huh? :laugh: It doesn't matter. I'm old enough to know better than to react similarly. It's silly. It's never helpful and just a waste of energy. When people advise others to get a private detective, check his cell phone & e-mails, follow him around, etc. What good ever comes from that kind of paranoia?? I've never seen it be a positive thing. Ever. Best wishes and keep posting! We need more voices of reason here!
Sami_D Posted January 10, 2006 Posted January 10, 2006 I'm trying to be helpful and objective, and often I'll get these HOWLS of hissing anger directed back at me, mostly from venegeful women, unfortunately. Just yesterday I was accused by of the writers by one of being an alcoholic, an abuser, and cheater because I advised a wronged wife to please try to move on and not keep demanding to find out who the former OW was if she wanted to heal her marriage. Huh? :laugh: It doesn't matter. I'm old enough to know better than to react similarly. It's silly. It's never helpful and just a waste of energy. When people advise others to get a private detective, check his cell phone & e-mails, follow him around, etc. What good ever comes from that kind of paranoia?? I've never seen it be a positive thing. Ever. Best wishes and keep posting! We need more voices of reason here! In this post, are you talking about the vengeful thoughts of a BS wanting to do something to the OW..? Because I was going to bring up another aspect of 'punishment' and revenge... that is the BS constantly checking up on the WS after an affair, or the constant bringing up of the subject. It's not just the OW who might have feelings of revenge when they've been involved in an affair situation.
erika2610 Posted January 10, 2006 Posted January 10, 2006 In this post, are you talking about the vengeful thoughts of a BS wanting to do something to the OW..? Because I was going to bring up another aspect of 'punishment' and revenge... that is the BS constantly checking up on the WS after an affair, or the constant bringing up of the subject. It's not just the OW who might have feelings of revenge when they've been involved in an affair situation. She's talking about a thread where the BS wants to know who her H former OW is. She claims she just has to know and he must tell her.He claims the affair's over, but since he won't tell her who the OW was, she thinks it's still going on. It's in the infidelity forum. The BS wants to sit down with the H and former OW and chat with both of them, and know for sure if it's over or not. I believe that's how it went..
Sami_D Posted January 10, 2006 Posted January 10, 2006 Why are so many people hateful because they could not convice their married or otherwise committed lover to change his/her entire life for them? Going into the situation one usually knows that the other person has a partner, although I understand there are occassional exceptions. It seems kind of immature and silly that people would get so much glee from causing the other person pain when things don't go their way. It looks like many people think they can manipulate the other person through the "magic of sex" and when that fails they want to destroy the other person. I really don't get all this drama and misery.You knew they had a parter, you decided to get involved anyway, you have accepted the terms of the deal. It's very childish to play all these games, especially if you knew the domestic situation when you entered into it. (whaffle alert): For one thing, it's not just people who have been involved in an affair who have feelings of revenge once the relationship is over. Anyone who is rejected can have a similar response, and the reasons for that are various. Some of these are to do with the personality of the person rejected... if they're somewhat 'co-dependent'... then if they've given a lot, put their own needs on hold for a long time, etc... then they're suddenly faced with rejection, then they can be absolutely FURIOUS and need some kind of retribution (however 'unjustified' it seems logically). A lot depends on expectations of the person who is eventually rejected. Some of these can be purely fanciful and in the mind of the person who is more 'in love' or emotionally committed to a particular outcome, but quite often there's (also) a hefty input from the person who eventually (for whatever reason) rejects them... all that lovey-dovey 'one day' talk... And then it turns out to be complete bull. I'm talking (above) about ANY romantic relationship. You can't maintain that thoughts of revenge are restricted only to affairs. But I would say that with affairs, there is something particular, and it actually goes against what you suggest: the self-denial of the OW is immense. The control of feelings, the delayed gratification, the (particular type of) self-control... these are part and parcel of an affair. This can build up a terrific head of steam of resentment and anger and desire to get back at him once it becomes clear you were misled (intentionally or not, by him, or by your own bad thinking or naivety). You talk about knowing the domestic situation... but with a MM, it's surprising how "the domestic situation" isn't explained at all well. It's very hazy, very difficult for him, very blah blah blah... How else would one get into an affair at all if it wasn't at least doubtful he is happy at home? There's the hook. He tells you he's happy with you but not with her, and while that's probably true, what most OW don't realise is that that doesn't actually mean anything in terms of whether he'll actually DO anything about that. But the expectation is set up... he's not happy with her, but I make him happy therefore... Very, very few women go into an affair with a man who is totally happy at home! Beginning an affair... you're looking at a man who's unhappy... a man. Not one half of an inviolable couple. That's why putting it in terms of 'no one has the right to approach a couple' doesn't work. That mental image of a husband and wife, and then a shadowy 'OW' approaching them isn't the reality of what happens. That's not the experience. The experience is of a woman meeting a man who has a wife. Not 'walking up to a couple'. Anyway, that's probably enough whaffling. I'm not attempting to justify anything, I'm attempting to answer the question. These things do happen... and they happen for reasons. If you want to know the reasons, then I think I've suggested some of them.
No Stress Lady Posted January 10, 2006 Posted January 10, 2006 Hi EMJ - yes - I agree that all this crap about checking cellphones, hiring PI's is just ridiculous - what a completely demented way to carry on. It just amazes me too that so many posters seem convinced that their MM WILL get divorced - I'd love to see the statistics but I'd bet good money that the percentage that do get divorced is in single figures. I've looked at some of the posts where the divorce IS going through (or seems to be) and even when it happens it doesn't seem like it brings any happiness then - see Violet's post - "3 years as other woman", FoolinLove's "Have I crossed the line" and LookingForChange's post "moving on". Sami D - of course I agree with your comment that an affair is not always a case of "shadowy other woman approaching blissfully happy couple". That's pretty obvious. It takes two to tango. There are many different scenarios which might lead to an affair starting but whilst I accept that yes, there must something lacking at home to make a MM stray I have to say that I am extremely sceptical about believing that, when push comes to shove, many MMen are actually as unhappy as they profess to be. The more unhappy and tortured they seem the more the OW seems to indulge them!!!!! How many are truly so unhappy that they are actually prepared to go through a divorce and all the trauma that it entails?. I get the impression from reading many of the posts that neither party is ever really being honest with each other or themselves and acknowledging that really the affair itself IS the "escape" - there's generally not going to be a rosier future just around the corner. To cling to that belief is just going to make it all the more difficult when realisation dawns for OW that the divorce is just not going to happen or for the MM (and maybe the OW) that the grass isn't always greener on the other side. My experiences, for what they're worth, have made me think that generally the MM is looking for one or several of the following: Someone to show affection and interest in him as himself - not him as The Husband, The Father - or maybe someone who is involved in the same kind of work as him who is genuinely interested in what he's been doing all day. Not necessarily his wife who has probably been working hard all day at her job too, is tired from looking after the kids, is only focusing on the kids or just isn't interested. He just wants to feel (now and again) like the fabulous lover, the centre of your universe, the carefree spirit - himself as maybe he perceives himself to have been (even though he may well have been none of those things!!) before he decided to marry. Someone with whom he can enjoy the excitement of an illicit physical relationship and who helps him momentarily forget his everyday life - as I said in an earlier post ("know what you're getting into?") and in this post, affairs are often really just a pleasant escape from the humdrum realities of life. And let's face it, men are pretty horny most of the time and I doubt there's a MM anywhere who hasn't been tempted at some stage or other. Your average man is often pretty egotistical and loves to have female attention - if you're a single girl pouring all your energy into and focusing all your love and attention on him he's probably going to feel invincible and probably starts to fool himself that maybe he might get that divorce - while he's with you and you're making him feel wonderful he'll probably tell you anything!!!. On another thought, a friend of mine once said that a married man should only ever have an affair with a married women - the point being that both have something to lose and a marriage at stake. (see Rodeogirl mailing the wife a letter....appalling) . There also seem to be an awful lot of single women here posting very depressing stories of not being able cope with the MM sleeping wth his wife, not being able to cope with him having to devote so much time to his kids.....a married woman might be a lot more understanding if she's in the same boat!!!!!!! And finally reality bites - after the potential emotional devastation following a divorce the odds are also stacked that he's going to end up far worse off financially - especially with kids to support too - and is he really going to want to race into a new marriage if and when he ends the old one? I just feel that some of the posters here would spare themselves a world of grief and pain if they just took a deep breath and actually stopped allowing themselves to be worked over emotionally, stopped seeing the world through rose tinted spectacles and just took some responsibility for the position they find themselves in - things DON'T "just happen" - we all have choices in life.
Brianschick Posted January 11, 2006 Posted January 11, 2006 We all make choices in life..but some of us are stronger than others. Life is not that clear cut my friend.
Author EMJ Posted January 12, 2006 Author Posted January 12, 2006 Is the fact the people DO outgrow each other. A Lot of women still see marriage and children as a way to escape the fast paced career or very boring job world. Even if they continue to work, their hearts are frequently not in it anymore. One of the most depressing thing I see a lot in the big city here, is the 40 year old woman with the double stroller, and often pregnant with that final baby. They look and are exhausted, stressed, isolated and unhappy. Even though hey thought this was a way to "have it all". That's a media fantasy generated about 30 years ago. Women bought it. It looked good on paper. Within a few years they have very little in common with their husbands, have stopped growing intellectually, all their attention is demanded by the children, and they have nothing left for their husbands. They often develop a resentment towards his percieved "freedom", stop having sex, and just assume he should accept it and wait months, sometimes years for her to "feel like it" again. I've seen it happen several times. I have sympathy for her, it's much harder than people think to be a full time mother, but I have sympathy for him too. He didn't know that having children would result in no real role for him other than "paycheck" and taking orders from her regarding everything Household. I'm working with someone who has only one child who is now school age. His wife does not work, but attends classes. He loves her but says she is SO boring now, not at all interested in him and his work, and although he's not likely to cheat, he's very unhappy with his marriage. He's grown a lot in the past few years. She has not. He's kind of like a younger brother to me. He can't talk to her about it because she's so sensitive, but he's very bored and lonely. A more outgoing guy may find someone else to fill the void. People don't consider all the tradeoffs and compromises that having children means. They stop working on the marriage and life starts going by very quickly.
castle26 Posted January 12, 2006 Posted January 12, 2006 (whaffle alert):Very, very few women go into an affair with a man who is totally happy at home! Beginning an affair... you're looking at a man who's unhappy... a man. Not one half of an inviolable couple. That's why putting it in terms of 'no one has the right to approach a couple' doesn't work. That mental image of a husband and wife, and then a shadowy 'OW' approaching them isn't the reality of what happens. That's not the experience. The experience is of a woman meeting a man who has a wife. Not 'walking up to a couple'. Thank you Sami for being the voice of reason (yet again)
iamtrying Posted January 13, 2006 Posted January 13, 2006 actually i feel that its human nature to want to lash back out when we feel that we have been hurt. personally, my story is that i have been lead on so i do have a right to feel hurt as i did not get into the relationship with my eyes open to his status. there is so many things that i could do as a form of revenge but there is really no need for it.... i believe he loved me but he just dont have the balls to go through with it. so i think the best form of revenge will be that he will have to live with the fact that he has lost someone who makes him happy and understands him and instead is staying in a loveless marriage with a wife who sleeps around.
FriendsForLife Posted January 13, 2006 Posted January 13, 2006 A lot of this stems from abandonment from one or both parents in childhood. They then try to find an "ideal partner" who can make up for their lack of nuturing earlier on. When the partner can't live up to these unrealistic standards the person feels abandoned once again, horribly rejected and starts to retaliate, which they couldn't do as a child. It's weird though that they go after men who obviously cant be there for them. On the other hand thats the initial attraction. "Wow, look what he'd do for me! Leave his wife/kids and life behind all for me." It's builds their self esteem and gives them the self worth they are lacking internally. Then the more they push and are "in the face" of the MM the more the MM runs the other way. If he is in this type of relationship with his wife as well he just juggles who he is running to and from. It's such a mess and a never ending cycle until somebody hit's a low so horrible they are forced to make a change. Unfortunately this rock bottom is usually devastating. The only way yo look at these situations is with empathy and understanding. Condeming and judging are useless. I think this way from experience, from watching friends and from reading waaaaay too many self help books.
castle26 Posted January 13, 2006 Posted January 13, 2006 ........I am now contemplating marriage myself for the first time and I have to say that the last thing in the world that would ever threaten my relationship is "the other woman"!!!!!!! ...... What do you mean by this? That if an affair happened in your marriage, you would not care, or that an affair would never happen in your marriage? Either way, why even get married?
newbby Posted January 13, 2006 Posted January 13, 2006 maybe what she is saying is that the ow is never really a threat
Astarte Posted January 13, 2006 Posted January 13, 2006 The other woman ALWAYS is a threat. It would be quite threatening to me if I had a hubby and he'd prefer to share his thoughts, joys, worries and hopes and finally - lusts with someone else other than me. That is highly threatening. And even if the affair ends and he stays with wife, the OW and the H left a scar, and scars are threatening aswell, imho.
No Stress Lady Posted January 14, 2006 Posted January 14, 2006 What do you mean by this? That if an affair happened in your marriage, you would not care, or that an affair would never happen in your marriage? Either way, why even get married? If an affair happened in my marriage of course I would care. I would however try deal with it in a rational way and to find out the reasons why it had happened. Having been the OW myself I've had an insight into what has motivated the guys I've been involved with into having an affair and the majority of the time it seems to be that married life has become stale and routine and, as EMJ said in an earlier post, that they feel like a paycheck, not a person. I would also point out though that none of these guys were so unhappy that they would want to go through the trauma of a divorce although they did seem to want to talk about their feelings in a way that they couldn't with their wives. The MMen I've been involved with knew from outset that I had absolutely no interest whatsoever in them leaving their wives and as such I think that helped them to be more open in saying how they felt about things. Of course the sex aspect is there but again, that seems to be another area where the spouse has just lost interest. I also wonder about the judgement some of these guys seem to have when reading these posts - I bet a lot of the MM concerned are wishing they'd never gone anywhere near some of the OW concerned - seems to land them in a whole world of grief. Maybe that's why so many of them stay put with their wives in the end. I don't want to single out any specific posters but there are plenty on this forum who sound like they have made life hell for the MM and all his family too.... Anyway, it's late here and I'm not answering the question so - no, I'm not saying an affair would never happen either - I'm realistic and I certainly wouldn't be so naive as to think "my husband would never have an affair". But if an affair did happen then I would take a deep breath and talk to my husband, find out why and then take it from there. In the worst case scenario, my husband leaves - well if that's what he really wants then he can go - I have no doubt that I could cope with my life and if kids were involved then I'd do my utmost to ensure sure that he was providing for them and I would get on with my life. I would rather be divorced than with a guy who was there and unhappy. In conclusion I feel that I have finally met the man I truly want to marry. I love my fiancee dearly and we have a huge and healthy respect for each other. I've had quite a few relationships, so has he and we both recognise the things we love in each other - we're both early thirties and maybe leaving marriage till later has been good for both of us in that we've had the opportunities to experience relationships to the point where we're ready for marriage and family.
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