Extra Truth Posted December 28, 2005 Posted December 28, 2005 CASE HISTORY OF OUR LOVE Hi J Dub, RioBikini, CaliGuy and anyone else who may feel qualified to offer advice to the 30+ crowd that is hopeful I read you recently some of you had a second chance, and you seem compassionate, so I'm going on a limb to spell out my specifics. This is my first true love, heartbreak, and I am a 35 year man. I have slept with many women, had semiserious relationships, but never loved, nor proposed marriage, nor considered having children with anyone before. She is 30. We were together 3.5 years (first 3 months nonexclusive), separated 3 months as of today. Basics: Me, 35, raised poor and white in Missouri, shipped off to elitist university on East Coast on scholarship; educated with a 'the world serves me' and very judgmental mentality (arrogance that covered huge insecurity from having gone from very poor to very wealthy school); crashed back to Earth after graduation when wealthy kids took over parents firms, took on unstable career in arts that has caused considerable self esteeem, anxiety, and anger problems stemming from disappointment that world hasn't served me. She: 30, Latina, raised in South Central inner-city LA, runaway, foster homes, years of therapy, kicked out of house, socialist organizer in Illinois, had her first love there in early 20s with man same age, then moved to North Dakota with man 20 years senior who let who take care of her elderly Alzheimer stricken parent. Has had several serious relationships, emotionally intelligent, very considerate, has a temper, and becomes frustrated. Experienced, conscientious of and possesses relationship management tools when I had virtually none. Uncompromising once angered. Interests tend to be urban and popular culture. Relationship style is constructive until angered then passive aggressive. Built up huge amount of resentment, mistrust. CRITICAL ISSUES: TRUST, COMMUNICATION, NEGLIGENCE, SEXUALITY CRITICAL PROBLEMS (no infidelity except for first 3-5 months when we dated nonexclusively--she dated childhood friend who would later hang out with us, and I found myself in psychosexual drama related to the death of friend where I found myself seduced by that friends granddaughter) --TROPHIES & TRUST- I possessed sex tapes of exes that she found. I said I only had few. Later had to admit there were more after lying. I didn't realize I kept these as trophies. Now regret this of course. --EX COMMUNICATIONS & TRUST--Lied about maintaining contact with ex of 12 years ago--I initially thought she was exercising veto power over who could be my friend, but in fact she simply wanted to be the first woman in my love before all others. I became resentful of what I thought was her position and passive aggressively lied. I became more resentful, because her childhood friend, with whom she slept was hanging around us and I found this hypocritical. This began a cycle of resentment, passive aggression, nagging and lying that ultimately undid us. She never asked outright for me to terminate the realtionship--in fact there was no substance to it--I simply maintained a Christmas and birthday greeting, and occasional phone call as we had over the previous 12 years. I thought she was overreacting. At the end, she asked for phone records, after she sent emails asking me to be honest (in fact, she had already broken my password, she apologized for this--and again, passive aggressively, I did not tell truth. I did not feel safe and basically was a coward. She lost most respect for me there. --SELFISHNESS--Now as an ex myself, I have lost even more of her respect because I didn't give her the space she wanted initially. This same attitude of carries over to her opinions of me, why she wouldn't have children with me now. it also carries over to our sex life. --NEGLIGENCE & SUPPORT--I did not show appreciate for the many things she did for me: support my art career financially. I in general did not put her first--I did not introduce her in public as my girlfriend, citing that I would only if others did (she thought I was acting single, and she showed me one night, towards the end, what it felt like when she didn't introduce me to a guy she was speaking with). I was intent with losing weight this year and have been very disciplined about it. Two of her uncles died, one murdered (I had only heard of one a few times), and instead of being right at her side, I insisted I keep my scheduled workout (pretty stupid, eh?!!!) and asked her to justify why she was so upset about a man I had hardly heard of. When my sister mistreated her, I asked her to not cause a ruckus at Christmas (this caused my ex to suffer greatly, and I regret it deeply). I should have stood by her as she stood by me. --COMMUNICATION--I was so insecure due to my social history, all of which she knew and could see right through it. I was always suspicious about her intellectual life. I read the papers, journals, kept up with the news, enjoyed analytical discussions. She read People, watched Buffy, and B-movies (of course, I appreciate now that her intelligence was emotional, and her talent was for having fun, and a taste for camp). I was arrogant, hypercritical about her dress, word choice, sometimes her tastes (when in truth I loved them). I was putting down my best friend due to a general unhappiness and anger I had at the world over my career, which she believed in. She eventually shut down all communication. I realized her depth when I read a book she gave me at the outset which I never read throughout the relationship, The Little Prince (her favorite, and now for me, the most life-changing book I have ever come across). I realized that she had given a critical part of herself to me at the outset, and the key to her emotional life, and her mind and intelligence. I never had anything to fear she was telling me with that book, she just wanted to tame the animal in me, she saw it for what it was, and loved me anyway, and if I let her in, she would soothe me, and love me. I of course didn't understand this until after we split, and I've been crying every day for 3 months since. --SEX LIFE & AFFECTION: I was sexually repressed and did not take care to service her as she did me--frankly, I had an issue with bodily fluids and was not as comfortable talking about sex as she was. Of course, this has changed too, and I am ready for the sexual adventure of a lifetime with her. She had experimented with sex clubs, threesomes, swinging, and practiced as a lesbian for a while. I resented not having experimented myself. She offered a threesome experience, but ultimately I chickened out, because she could not guarantee we would survive. She wanted to did it right then rather than become more attached. She told me she had a threesome with the same childhood friend, then later recanted. This messed with mind. She also once told me she was not going out, then called to recant saying she was going out with him and recanted. So she had a history of lying too. In any case, regarding the sex life aspect, I think I was afraid of female sexual power, of the vagina, and female sexuality, and I had never had to take an interest in technique before. All my previous partners had used me as a sex toy, and I did them too. I have always been very sexual, even scared that I might be a sex addict, and I told her--she was okay with that. In her book, bondage, or anything else would have been fine so long as we did it together. She asked for affection, to be caressed--I griped about her word usage (how stupid is that????--now I appreciate it was those ticks about her that I loved). I was not raised to be affectionate, but I have learned its value and have warmed considerably. I was threatened by her very sexual awareness. She invited me to explore with her, and I was threatened. That would be my goal if I were with her again, and I am not afraid, but overjoyed I could release with her. I truly hope I have that chance. BREAKUP: I saw her last as a girlfriend on Sept. 27 (3.5 years after meeting). I started a job the next day with 16 hour days. She asked for a few weeks to think about it. 3 weeks later, I received a call to work things out--then another saying she wanted to exchange things. I should have quit right there, but the career had been going to badly I needed the work. I started calling to meet her and she wouldn't. I happened to be working downtown 1 day and she thought I was stalking. I went to her place and asked to see her fact to face to look in her eyes and have her tell me if she still loved me. She wouldn't and sent a friend down. I heard about that one as unhealthy behavior too. I text messaged for a personal meeting, she said no, until Nov. 15th. She asked if we needed to meet in person. I went over, cried, she stroked my head, took my ring as a keepsake (I later learned in anger), then she took me to bed, saying 'once your in, your out'--but she's a bit of drama queen and we had been drinking. Our mutual friends were throwing a party on Dec. 9th. We might meet there. I received a Thanksgiving wish through her brother, who introduced us and is still a friend--although he becoming uncomfortable as the intermediary. The next day she called, with our defenses down and me admitting everything, it was tender and sweet. We spoke for nearly 5 hours, after she had sent me an email 2 days before that we might not speak again for a very long time ( and might not ever be friends), until I had healed and gained perspective. Oh, I had called her sister, mother, father, brother-in-law asking for advice. I probably seemed like a lunatic--and all this against the brother's advice to give her space. He thought I had a chance, and he feels I blew it. UPDATE 2: We negotiated, she angrily, to not take dates to the party. I kept me distance, didn't want to talk about our relationship. She had been drinking, I lightly. She opened right into talking about it, after talking with some fellow for quite a while--later I learned, she talked about, to a total stranger, about her sleeping with someone new, who didn't mean anything, but she didn't want me to know about it. She stayed late and her ride left, I took her home. She initially put me on the couch, then we shared a bed. No sex. She woke early to go the couch. I came out, asked if she wanted to talk. We spoke for 7 hours, listening to Patsy Kline breakup tunes. She sang (which she never does) and laughed for the first time in a while. I thought things were going well. The last hour became ugly. I told her she did not know what the future holds, and I had my hope. She said it was selfish for me to want something she did not want, that is to be lovers, and that she could not be attracted or have children with such a selfish man--that pretty much tied my hands right there (I'm not sure if it was a clever tactic or not, she is very clever). So if I want her I'm selfish, okay, I guess this is the principle of agape love versus eros love being played out. I have to let her go. More on that in just a bit. She kept going on about boundaries. She told me she has slept with someone. She also mentioned that she had called a business acquaintance of mine who is a womanizer--I immediately called him and told to back off (this one is not for her--he sleeps with 5 different women a week--she told me if she didn't sleep with him when we were together, she wouldn't now). She is a very strong advocate of boundaries and feels I should not even ask with whom she goes--it is not my right. I feel that she is poaching my boundaries by calling people I know. I'll probably hear about this. Who knows if she will sleep with him just to spite me. I learned on Christmas eve from the hosts of the party that she called a few times after the party. She is worried that she is messing me up for the next woman. The wife (one of the hosts) paraphrased (she said that she did not take notes), that I my ex does not even want to be friends anymore, that as a woman she knows that it is over. That my ex wants to me move on with my life. I think my ex would tell me if we would never speak again. This wife friend (who I feel betrayed by because she told my ex to leave me alone, that she is hurting me--in fact, my exes communications were helping us talk through our issues, and maybe offered us a chance to reconcile when she could see the emotional growth I'm going through), said I should consider my ex as a death. That i shouldn't call her. I say if it's really over, that I want to say goodbye as I would my parents. My ex, I am told, was trying to help me, and appreciates what I'm going through, so there are feelings. HOW I SEE HER: So, I realize what a healthy, amazing woman I had. Fearless, open, loving. All she asked was that I love her back, nurture her, be a gentle, kind, honest fearless man who owned his faults. I did not when it counted. All she has to go by is 3.5 years me being repressed, depressed, insecure and to some degree emotionally abusive through my negligence. i realize all this and am currently working on myself, but I having such a hard time letting go, because I realize how amazing she was, and how rare she is, and how great a fit. With our negative history as a prism, she thinks we are incompatible. She sees me as selfish, weak, and now unhealthy in my pursuit, since I continue to love her despite her not loving me. I am having difficulty understanding the woman who tells strangers of her sexual exploits. From our sexual history, you may be able to tell that while it upsets me, I am ready to accept that free adults have sex, after all we considered threesomes. I have in mind the image of a great woman, who I thought was a romantic, who claims to be an artist, who I have thought to be broad-minded (if not forgiving), but I am running against her rules, the fact she may be moving on, or simply living out. I have no idea if she thinks of me. I know she cares for my welfare, but this is tarnished greatly by the idea posed by the wife that she does not want to even be friends which goes against my exes previous wishes--she had wanted me to be a godfather, if nothing else. I am receiving cookie-cutter advice from either very young people, or people set on moving on or convenience. I accept my ex with all her flaws. She accepted me with mine, but I have lost her respect, and that is the beginning for love. I have no means of communication with her. All I have is my art which she respects. She has given me persmission to write a movie or stageplay based on our relationship which I'm starting. I figure it will be the only way I can reach her, through the press, and demonstrate what I've learned, and also show her a vision of how the future can be. If she is truly shallow, and I worry about this because of her sleeping around, and loose mouth about her sexual exploits, then have I wasted my time and energy. I feel not, since there is so much to gain if she will simply trust me again, and show some courage, some vision. This man has emerged from the cocoon, and ready to play fearlessly, and stand by her side, as I did not before. I am a loss of how to go about winning her back. I mentioned agape vs. eros love. Agape is unconditional and eros is concerned with how the other person serves the emotional or sensual needs of the spurned. I am not concerned with how she serves my needs. I simply want to serve hers, and to that end I am preparing to let go, since I am truly interested in her being happy, and having what she wants. This will cause me great pain. It took her 3.5 years to get my attention, and I am ready to spend a huge amount of effort and time to win hers. I think she is worth it. Some will say, why torture yourself? I will work out a way where I do not. I will build the life I know I deserve, which is what she wanted me to do (break out of that depression), and I will become that emotionally healthy man she knew was there if only it would break out and trust her, and I will be ready if she ever comes back. The question is will she on her own devices, or shall influence this--like I said, she has always respected my art, and I can think of no better way, with my hands tied from communication, of showing that love and dedicating and writing a play for her about us. I will appreciate any comments, and thank you for reading such a long post...
bluechocolate Posted December 28, 2005 Posted December 28, 2005 This wife friend (who I feel betrayed by because she told my ex to leave me alone, that she is hurting me--in fact, my exes communications were helping us talk through our issues, and maybe offered us a chance to reconcile when she could see the emotional growth I'm going through), said I should consider my ex as a death. That i shouldn't call her. I say if it's really over, that I want to say goodbye as I would my parents. My ex, I am told, was trying to help me, and appreciates what I'm going through, so there are feelings. I can't understand why you feel betrayed by this wife friend. Sounds to me like she had your best interests in mind when she offered you this advice - and she's right. You need to treat this as if it's over - it certainly sounds that way to me. Sounds like you've done a lot of soul searching & worked through a lot of emotional garbage over this. Great. You can apply what you've learnt to your next relationship. With our negative history as a prism, she thinks we are incompatible. She sees me as selfish, weak, and now unhealthy in my pursuit, since I continue to love her despite her not loving me. Therefore as the longer you continue to pursue her the more & more you will damage whatever respect & feelings she had for you. She may be right about an unhealthy pursuit. I know she cares for my welfare, but this is tarnished greatly by the idea posed by the wife that she does not want to even be friends which goes against my exes previous wishes--she had wanted me to be a godfather, if nothing else. Assuming the wife friend is telling the truth, it is easy to understand why your ex has come to the decision that you can't even be friends. You sound intelligent enough to understand that. Your post left me with the impression that you are somebody who spends a lot of time dwelling on the past. Analyse, process & move on, otherwise the analysis is a pointless exercise - we flee from the truth in vain. It's time to let it go.
riobikini Posted December 28, 2005 Posted December 28, 2005 Whew! -that was the first few chapters of Wal-green's latest featured romance novel! But I realize it's only (Smile) , YOUR life. I DO appreciate the sometimes, rather confusing detail, tho. You are w-o-o-d in love with f-i-r-e. And the only way the two of you can be near each other is by having a boundary line dug between you. Just ask a firefighter. She is dynamic, fearless, powerful, and driven by a fantastic craziness that can never be chained, but has the ability to love hot, hard, and deep. And you are captivated by her. I do believe you are in love. Her: she sounds so much like the 'free spirits' of the sixties where mind-changing revolutions in love and politics caused riots and 'free love' was born. I am impressed with her, too. People like her can (did) change the world. She certainly changed yours. But like the people who were key during those years, and although they did some amazing things, most of them dealt with a background similar to your lady. They have their own monsters to deal with and it's one of the reasons they have those boundaries and need their 'space'. She will give her love to you, -but not her mind, nor her life. It would also be best to stay out of her politics. Some of the things she does SHOCK you. But all of it INTRIGUES you. You even fell in love with things about her that irritated and annoyed you; stuff you found disgusting, you secretly loved. She does seem to have a knowledge of the depth of you that YOU didn't even recognize until she gave you the book. Yes, she was telling you something. She was telling you that she doesn't care how many times you hand her that image of you with all the corners perfectly squared or how many big, intelligent words you use to hide the small raw ones you are secretly bursting to use to tell her how you feel about her, -or even how you divert your eyes to hide your approval of her when she searches your soul, -she already KNOWS. She knows YOU. But with a woman like her, you have to step into HER world, -not the other way around. I truly believe that. It's not that she doesn't see ANY value to your world, -it's just that she appreciates it LESS because of the RESTRICTIONS in it that will cause her fiery spirit to die. She can't live in a bland world. She has the heart of a revolutionist. Your world despises revolution, -except for you. That's only because you love her. If you want her, you have to make the biggest sacrifices. And that, my friend, is exactly where you're at, now. You know you love her, but the question is: Can you truly make those sacrifices? Take care. -Rio
Author Extra Truth Posted December 29, 2005 Author Posted December 29, 2005 Hi Rio So you can see why I'm smitten--so many see her behavior of late and speak badly of her--much of it is out of character from the woman I love, eg, she's already sleeping with men, but respects me enough she says to tell me about it. She says she left emotionally months ago. You may also be able to sense from our sexual history that she has more candor for sex. No doubt sShe is fiery, and my repressed inner world suffocated her--that was the vision she saw, and the history we had didn't offer to her an alternative. Her walking was the shock to the system that introduced me to love, and broke my armor. The dike broke and my spirit rushed out. My emotional development went from bachelor of 23 to man of 35 in 6 weeks, and I'm still growing rapidly. She appreciates this growth, and in our few conversation she says she can hear it and knows it's authentic. She told me she was the one to carry me to love, but not stay there after--I wholly disagree, and don't know why her mind is so made up. She says she never goes back. I'm not sure if that is anger, pride, or some combination of caveats like you see from standard psychology--CaliGuy usually posts a link about why second chances don't work. I see so much evidence, though rare, that it does, but the dumper must want it. She does not. I have told her that neither she nor I know the future. Some supportive friends say her words are body punches and this is round 3 in a 12 round fight. There is a lot of anger coming out. And now, we are NC, and not so supportive friends are advising me to treat this as death and expect to niether hear or see her again. I can't do that. The peace I've made with myself is that, despite everyone's warning about wasting time and energy on someone who doesn't love me back, it is my time and energy to waste, and 5% odds are good for this type of person. I woke up late but I'm here if she ever doubts her decision. I would also like to influence it if at all possible. I am a revolutionary too, and she knew it when she met me. When my career hit the skids right at the beginning of our relationship, she saw the inner me, adventurous, confident, playful, optimist, then then she saw me change and I took my disappointments out on her--throughout though she helped me. After our split, my subsequent meditations on her, love, and what I've lost have unleashed my spirit. As I said, she appreciates the emotional growth, can hear the honesty in me, and all that repression is gone. I am still reprogramming my attitude towards the positive to reduce anxiety, depression, anger and recover my usual sense of fun, optimism, and kindness that she knew before. The problem is how to show her an alternative vision of the future for us that she will believe and want to give an opportunity to happen. You are so right that she saw only a depressed future with me, so on one level, I can see why she left. I just don't see why she won't consider a return. I asked her, shortly after the break up and before I annoyed her with my pleas, whether the reason I wasn't offered a last chance was due to her no longer being in love with me. She said being in love with me was a feeling she had lost and that was why she not offer a last chance--and she said she had offered many second chances ever time she came back after a fight--mind you, we had never gone a day in 3.5 years without speaking. I didn't say but wish I had: but honey, I'm asking for a last chance. Love is a choice, a verb, not just a feeling. When we first met and were strangers, you chose to give me a chance that bloomed into love. Now a stranger has more of a chance than I do, and you know me, albeit poorly through my armor and the prism of my mistakes. I know it's hard for you to believe, but I am released from my chains and here to love you wholly, if only I have that last chance. I wish I had said this. Now she wants space so I am giving. She told me that she will jump in feetfirst into her next relationship, that is her way, as she did with me. She is a real find, and so I am, so I think we are not as incompatible as she thinks. I hope she will realize this during her dating. In the meantime, I am working to get it together. She has mentioned incompatibility: when we are open and listen our styles mesh via senstivity and willingness to value what the other says. I wonder Rio, what you mean by that hardest sacrifice. Please tell me. I am crushed by this loss and truly don't know where I will find a woman like her. She's complicated, difficult, and like you said fiery, but I love her essence, and just want to love her, show myself to her, the gentle powerful open and honest man, and build a fearless life with her and equal partners. What can I do? And again, thank you for reading such a long post, and offering your very warm thoughts. It's funny you mention the opening chapter of a Harlequin novel. She gave me permission to either make a film or play based on our relationship. She said use it all, the good and ugly. So I've been inspired. For now it's called "isn't it obvious' and it seems to me the only way I might be able to communicate what I've learned, how I've opened, matured and share a vision with her while I am not able to communicate directly. Incidentally, I learned from her brother that she was surprised I didn't call on Christmas eve or day. Of course I spent most that day in the car sobbing with the phone in hand. Please Rio, I welcome your thoughts and advice. Blessings, J in LA
Author Extra Truth Posted December 29, 2005 Author Posted December 29, 2005 Hi Rio, just in case you don't want to bother reading the second lost post. Here's a short question: I am ready to sacrifice anything. What are those sacrifices you mention? I'm all ears.
Author Extra Truth Posted December 29, 2005 Author Posted December 29, 2005 Hi Blue Chocolate: The pursuit has stopped, at least directly, so as not to not damage further her respect or feelings for me. She did say my initial pursuit was unhealthy, and I agree it was clingy and disrespectful of her wishes, so it was selfish as she said, and that is a criticism by her of me. So it has stopped, and she was surprised I didn't call for the holiday--that was good news I think. I was upset at this married friend, because I don't think she had my interests in mind, and she doesn't know my ex as I do. Like so many, there are a million fish in the sea--I really don't believe there a million women like this one. I don't think there are a million like me. Perhaps with her dating she will revise her opinion if I can show her change and a vision. I have hope in that. Additionally, about that wife friend, she paraphrased saying 'she didn't take notes'. That's a little sloppy in my view when your giving advice whether to treat an exlover (who was practically a wife), as dead forever. This is too casual, and may even be a lie, inadvertant perhaps through editorializing from her experience. She did say my ex is concerned about my being messed up for the next woman. I am learning that only I know my ex thoroughly, and she is a tough cookie who usually stand by what she says, but she has never been with someone like me. She's been more attentive men, kinder men, etc, but I am hoping that I was special enough for her to break her rule. It's just too early to tell. She said she is ready to live with never marrying if she never finds anyone, so for now she is having sex, but I now she is not concerned with biological pressure or too much so with convenience. Also, if she were to want us to be dead to each other forever, I think she would have told me. The wife says my ex was being kind, but unless I hear it from my exes mouth, I am believing no one on this. So she still shows concern, surprise, and with my play, "Isn't It Obvious", I hope she will have a vision that is worth breaking her rule of never going back. That's my hope in any case and it's worth dedicating a year of my life. Thanks for the reponse Blue Chocolate! Blessings, J in LA
Author Extra Truth Posted December 29, 2005 Author Posted December 29, 2005 Hi Rio, it's me again, on my thread, so I hope you won't mind. I have read many of your posts and they always come off as warm and insightful. You mentioned me being wood in love with fire. It's an interesting metaphor. I thought about it, and I think you have something there. She met me as fire, then I became wood. She is fire, and I am ready to go to that world. I am working on restoking the fire again. I think that is what the play I will write will be about, a firey work about fearlessness from the heart and mind of the fiery man she fell in love with who is back. It's the only thing I can think of that won't breach her boundaries. So, what were those sacrifices you mentioned. I want to delete that second long post to you but can't figure out how, so sorry about all the posting directly too you. Many thanks ahead, J in LA
riobikini Posted December 29, 2005 Posted December 29, 2005 RE: I wonder Rio, what you mean by that hardest sacrifice. Please tell me. I am crushed by this loss and truly don't know where I will find a woman like her. She's complicated, difficult, and like you said fiery, but I love her essence, and just want to love her, show myself to her, the gentle powerful open and honest man, and build a fearless life with her and equal partners. What can I do? Extra Truth, ANSWER: Giving up everything that has made your world right for YOU, is what I'm talking about. Look, there's definitely still romance going on here, -but it's all YOU, now, -not HER. If you chased her now, you'd regret it for the rest of your life. What you've already had with her is all you're going to get. You have some exceptional memories of her and can smile (or even cry) when you think of how she was always turning your world upside down and reducing your mountain of etiquette and protocol to rubble with her crazy, fiery, street-smart charm, wit, -and anger. She added spice to your life and because of her you have changed into a more valuable creature by being exposed to the best and the worst all in one package. Because of her, you no longer particularly care about how perfectly square your corners are anymore. You may even shabby them up a bit yourself, just to keep yourself grounded. Because of her, you might be tempted to watch a campy movie instead of 'This week In Wall Street' or 'CNN'. In doing so, you might be tempted to laugh. Because of her, you might read 'Tuesdays With Morrie', or 'Rolling Stone Magazine', instead of '101 Ways to Seize The Edge Over Your Competitor'. And you might continue learning about the BIG world outside YOUR small one. Because of her, you might listen to AC/DC on your car stereo, or catch a really cool retro rock band playing in the park, instead of listening your usual classical genre of music. And you might FINALLY get in touch with your 'other side', -which will round you out and make you unmistakably downright cool. This girl enriched your life but trying to truly mesh your lives will only spell heartache and disappointment for you BOTH. She's already played her best supporting role in your life. She made you feel your first real taste of love and heartbreak. Now let her go. Take care. -Rio
Author Extra Truth Posted December 29, 2005 Author Posted December 29, 2005 RE: Extra Truth, ANSWER: Giving up everything that has made your world right for YOU, is what I'm talking about. EASY: DONE! Look, there's definitely still romance going on here, -but it's all YOU, now, -not HER. I KNOW. CAN IT EVER RETURN. THERE ARE CASE HISTORIES OF IT HAPPENING. If you chased her now, you'd regret it for the rest of your life. HOW EXACTLY? NOT BEING DIFFICULT, JUST LOOKING FOR CLEAR WISDOM. What you've already had with her is all you're going to get. AND THAT'S ENOUGH. I JUST WANT TO GIVE TO HER. NO MORE ASKING OR TAKING, JUST GIVING AND LOVING. She made you feel your first real taste of love and heartbreak. YES SHE HAS. Now let her go. -Rio Hi Rio Not exactly what I was hoping to hear. You also wrote earlier: If you WANT her (is this assuming she can be had again?), you have to make the biggest sacrifices. And that, my friend, is exactly where you're at, now. You know you love her, but the question is: Can you truly make those sacrifices? I do want her. I won't pursue to my later lifelong regret. But how can you be so sure she there will never be chance? You are right on the money about what she exposed me to, and I cherish it all. We wer unconventional, but she was far stronger than I was at the time. I wasn't nearly as fuddy duddy as I made myself out to be--I just wasn't 'honest', that is I was repressed. I can let her go, with love for now, but I also want to work to woo her back with art. I can be patient over years, that's okay. So what do you think?
bluechocolate Posted December 29, 2005 Posted December 29, 2005 Look, there's definitely still romance going on here, -but it's all YOU, now, -not HER. If you chased her now, you'd regret it for the rest of your life. What you've already had with her is all you're going to get. Now let her go. Let her go. I can't really add much more to that. OK, I can. ...and with my play, "Isn't It Obvious", I hope she will have a vision that is worth breaking her rule of never going back. That's my hope in any case and it's worth dedicating a year of my life. I think writing a play to win back someones affections is bordering on the obsessive. By all means, write the play, but re-work your intentions before doing so. I'll even go as far as saying that in your current state of mine I don't think writing this play is a good idea at all. It will only serve to keep you thinking about her constantly. You should wait until you're well & truly over her & have accepted that she isn't coming back before embarking on this. She told me she was the one to carry me to love, but not stay there after--I wholly disagree, and don't know why her mind is so made up. Why do you disagree with her? From what you've written she doesn't strike me as the type of person to lie about these things. These are her words, her feelings. She's told you. Believe her. And now, we are NC, and not so supportive friends are advising me to treat this as death and expect to neither hear or see her again. These friends sound supportive to me. They're just not telling you what you want to hear. Sometimes friends have to do that.
riobikini Posted December 29, 2005 Posted December 29, 2005 RE: Hi Rio Not exactly what I was hoping to hear. The truth, -or simply an opposing view, is sometimes not what we want to hear. But we ask for it anyway because someone has to be the 'heavy' in bearing the bad news. And we don't want it to be us. Take care. -Rio
Author Extra Truth Posted December 29, 2005 Author Posted December 29, 2005 ...and with my play, "Isn't It Obvious", I hope she will have a vision that is worth breaking her rule of never going back. That's my hope in any case and it's worth dedicating a year of my life. I think writing a play to win back someones affections is bordering on the obsessive. By all means, write the play, but re-work your intentions before doing so. I'll even go as far as saying that in your current state of mine I don't think writing this play is a good idea at all. It will only serve to keep you thinking about her constantly. You should wait until you're well & truly over her & have accepted that she isn't coming back before embarking on this. She told me she was the one to carry me to love, but not stay there after--I wholly disagree, and don't know why her mind is so made up. Why do you disagree with her? From what you've written she doesn't strike me as the type of person to lie about these things. These are her words, her feelings. She's told you. Believe her. And now, we are NC, and not so supportive friends are advising me to treat this as death and expect to neither hear or see her again. These friends sound supportive to me. They're just not telling you what you want to hear. Sometimes friends have to do that. To me it's fascinating how people can see alternate views of the same situation. For me, as an artist, while in the depths of the crisis, now is the perfect time to bring into fruition this work. There is power in intention. The universe organizes itself for those whose intentions are put into action. I'm not saying anyone can be forced to love against their will, although the great lovers in history were deliberate and we have their stories, instead, all I'm saying is that I can put forward a vision to make a person smile and say, 'okay, maybe it's worth giving him a second shot, it seems he has really opened up and it's appealing to me--I don't have the worry about those fears that made me leave'. Even if I don't speak with her directly, as an artist I can make myself heard and I can show visions. I do believe her and understand her when she says its over. Yet, history has shown couples reunite. I don't mind being the underdog. The stakes are love. I don't doubt her, and she wouldn't lie. She says she's clear, and she's met with me, even allowed me to sleep with her (non sexual), and perhaps these are signs of confusion, or subconcious feelings. I don't know. Perhaps she is confused? Perhaps she is still lashing out? Her indication of surprise that I didn't call at Christmas given to me by her brother was good I think. She feels no responsibility for me or my life, but she does care. That is the slightest ember. I know it's a long shot, but combine it with restored respect, and maybe the chances go a bit higher. And regarding friends, and this is just my opinion, yes, friends have to be frank sometimes. But advice from good friends that helps a person feel good is more welcome than advice from good friends that makes a person feel bad--something an old psychology professor of mine used to say. If my ex is the kind of woman I think she is, she in time will appreciate the qualities of our friendship as we were friends foremost, then perhaps...but to be dead to each other forever?, the woman I know wouldn't deal that death blow silently. I appreciate your comments, but I just don't intend to go with the average of human experience. I will give space and bide my time, and live now. I understand the concern about obsession but I see my mind more geared towards faith that this might be meant to be. Sure, there is a chance she won't ever be mine again, but then again, conversely, there is a chance she will
Author Extra Truth Posted December 29, 2005 Author Posted December 29, 2005 Hi Rio I appreciate opposing views--I reponded to Blue Chocolates above. I do want her, but I don't see how such fatalism forever is going to help me have her. Would you kindly share the connection between the two. Many thanks! J in LA PS oh, also, I just want to be clear--why would I regret the pursuit for the rest of my life. If in fact, we are dead to each other forever, then there is nothing to lose by making contact, say 6 months from now with letters or poems, or with inviting her to the play premier. Is there? I just am not clear on what is lost, if you and Blue Chocalate are saying everything already is. I really welcome an answer on this one. Thank you.
bluechocolate Posted December 29, 2005 Posted December 29, 2005 But advice from good friends that helps a person feel good is more welcome than advice from good friends that makes a person feel bad--something an old psychology professor of mine used to say. Of course advice that makes you feel good is more welcome, that doesn't mean it's valid. I appreciate your comments, but I just don't intend to go with the average of human experience. Sorry mate, the phraseology aside, you sound just like a love-struck teenager. You've made up your mind so I don't know why you're here looking for validation.
Author Extra Truth Posted December 29, 2005 Author Posted December 29, 2005 But advice from good friends that helps a person feel good is more welcome than advice from good friends that makes a person feel bad--something an old psychology professor of mine used to say. Of course advice that makes you feel good is more welcome, that doesn't mean it's valid. I appreciate your comments, but I just don't intend to go with the average of human experience. Sorry mate, the phraseology aside, you sound just like a love-struck teenager. You've made up your mind so I don't know why you're here looking for validation. ADVICE OR SECONDHAND? True, but this advice was based on the PURPORED statement desires of my ex, so it's secondhand. And for these friends to stonewall saying it's not important what words my ex used is clumsy when dealing with such an important issue. These friends have only become 'close' during this breakup so Ihave to take their advice with a huge grain of salt. JUVENILISM Sorry, poor word choice and attitude, and yes, I sounded juvenile. I'm just allowing for the outside chance that's all. I need to watch that. VALIDATION & SIGN OFF I have. And you're right, I am looking in the wrong place for validation--this message board, that is dedicated to moving on. I have some friends who are supporting my hope. After this thread has run it's life--I'm waiting for Rio Bikini to write back--I will probably sign off. I'll won't read any more breakup or coping books. I will continue to consult with the Jesuits who have been helping me. I'll read instead affirmative books. After all, the 4-minute mile and other great achievements were accomplished despite naysayers. If it doesn't work out after a year or so, I will hope that we be friends. I somehow feel, that no matter what, we would wind up being one of those couples marrying after being apart for 30 years and having separate families--our psychic connection is that tight even today which is why NC is so important to her now. It would be a sad and joyous reunion at the same time, since all we really need now is an opportunity a little bit of new experience together. A little courage, a little faith, and a little vision, and we could make it. That's my message to my love. I did pick up one useful piece of advice: that the best odds anyone has of another chance is allowing the person the space to change their mind when and if that mind and heart after time decide to come back--the ball is firmly in the dumper's court. Anything else will just push the dumper further away. Until that chance comes, it is best to work on oneself. In my case, I am going to use my talents to show an alternate vision encompassing my emotional growth and see whether, she MIGHT reconsider. Cheers and Thank you all for your comments, J in LA Thanks for your comments.[/b]
riobikini Posted December 29, 2005 Posted December 29, 2005 RE: If you WANT her (is this assuming she can be had again?), you have to make the biggest sacrifices. And that, my friend, is exactly where you're at, now. You know you love her, but the question is: Can you truly make those sacrifices? I'm going to speak to this and then leave you alone to absorb it all for awhile. MY ANSWER: NOTE: Please keep in mind, that, in these forums, only lay advice is given, and that, ultimately, YOU will make your own decision(s). With that said, let me remind you that this is my 'TAKE' on YOUR situation, and you can value it for what it is intended (which is to help you by using my own life experiences), -OR you can toss it away. Entirely YOUR CHOICE. If you want her, and have chosen to pursue her, I truly believe that you are wasting a lot of time that could be used more constructively. The two of you, fundamentally, mix like oil and water, -thus the wood and fire comparison. You've given the best of what you both had to give to each other, already. Being together, I believe, would create a lifetime of tumultuous and emotional clashes brought on by two very different basic views on life, love, politics, behaviour, and the list goes on. Maybe it's just me, -but I think two ppl can sometimes just be SO enormously different that it makes a future together quite impossible. I think that's true with your situation, judging from what you've revealed in your posts, and from my own personal judgement and life experiences. I am on the edge of this post, i.e. I see nowhere to take you to in order to lead you to appreciate any of my perspective. I and others have given you much the same advice. We have given you what you are really asking for: objective opinion. And that's what this forum does, it often leads you to the farthest cliff where you can SEE where you should leap (if you would only open your eyes) and throws the rope right into your hand. You have been thrown the rope. Whether you use it to jump to the other side where sanity is, is up to you, my friend. Take care. -Rio
riobikini Posted December 29, 2005 Posted December 29, 2005 P.S. I would feel more comfortable in telling you to see a counselor (in addition to the Jesuits). Also, you should realize that other posters could have entirely different opinions to give you who have not arrived, yet. We (I) do care. (Smile) Take care. -Rio
Author Extra Truth Posted December 29, 2005 Author Posted December 29, 2005 RE: I'm going to speak to this and then leave you alone to absorb it all for awhile. MY ANSWER: NOTE: Please keep in mind, that, in these forums, only lay advice is given, and that, ultimately, YOU will make your own decision(s). With that said, let me remind you that this is my 'TAKE' on YOUR situation, and you can value it for what it is intended (which is to help you by using my own life experiences), -OR you can toss it away. Entirely YOUR CHOICE. If you want her, and have chosen to pursue her, I truly believe that you are wasting a lot of time that could be used more constructively. The two of you, fundamentally, mix like oil and water, -thus the wood and fire comparison. You've given the best of what you both had to give to each other, already. Being together, I believe, would create a lifetime of tumultuous and emotional clashes brought on by two very different basic views on life, love, politics, behaviour, and the list goes on. Maybe it's just me, -but I think two ppl can sometimes just be SO enormously different that it makes a future together quite impossible. I think that's true with your situation, judging from what you've revealed in your posts, and from my own personal judgement and life experiences. I am on the edge of this post, i.e. I see nowhere to take you to in order to lead you to appreciate any of my perspective. I and others have given you much the same advice. We have given you what you are really asking for: objective opinion. And that's what this forum does, it often leads you to the farthest cliff where you can SEE where you should leap (if you would only open your eyes) and throws the rope right into your hand. You have been thrown the rope. Whether you use it to jump to the other side where sanity is, is up to you, my friend. Take care. -Rio Thank you Rio, and duly noted. I will bother you with only one last post, because I think I gave a wrong impression of our compatibility. Our not mixing, was due to my repressive emotional armor (I just realized this, but I sabotaged us)-I actually expended a lot of effort out of fear to make sure that happened, mostly and regrettably unconciously. That resistance is no longer there. I would totally agree with you about just giving up if I had given everything but I did not, or if I knew in my soul that we were fundamentally incompatible, after all why would I want to torture myself or her with that. That is why I am so certain we would be fine because without the resistance, and with honesty, to myself and us that is, the oil and water mix, or toxicity if you will (because I know that is what she views of the mixture) would disappear. I know this to be the truth. I know it so deeply in my soul that it just kills me every single day, because fundamentally, I made a mistake, and I know all we need is just one chance, and I have no idea, other than the play, how to engineer it. She is so fed up now she is convinced it is impossible too. She will listen to art though, so maybe, just maybe... Just to finish, our world views are actually quite similar. The missing ingredient at the time was my trust, that I could make myself totally vulnerable to her--that's why I regret not having read The Little Prince. To use your analogy. She held the rope out to me with that book, I will always regret not having read it, and I was too afraid to take it because I didn't understand what was being offered.. Had I, we would be together now. If offered again, I would jump. I will meditate on your comments, but do sincerely, actually, would welcome very much a final post on this last offering of mine. Then I will be off to the Jesuits, and very likely a counselor. Warm wishes, J in LA PS I will check in to see others comments. Thank you again so much for caring.
riobikini Posted December 29, 2005 Posted December 29, 2005 ET, If you feel there are bridges left behind you that must be dealt with, (either didn't get built or need to be burned) -then only YOU know whether they are worth walking back for. Good luck, ET! Yours, -Rio P.S. Try to see the counselors first.
Author Extra Truth Posted December 29, 2005 Author Posted December 29, 2005 RE: If you want her, and have chosen to pursue her, I truly believe that you are wasting a lot of time that could be used more constructively. The two of you, fundamentally, mix like oil and water, -thus the wood and fire comparison. You've given the best of what you both had to give to each other, already. Hi Rio, I meant to quote this on my last post--this is the section of your post I was hoping to respond to in my last post. I've gone and ahead and clarified why we mixed like oil and water--I did that in my original post in a really convulted way I guess by going into my social and career history, but the essence is very simple. My gut feeling is that after removing the obstacle of unconscious emotional sabotage, we mix fine. I did not give my best which is coming out now, and it is the fire she fell in love with. I am using my energy to stoke the fire and let all of me come out. I see that working well with her, or maybe not, but to know for sure, a last chance would be needed. She is fabulous and if I can be with her, my life's joy can begin, and my life's goal is done, to meet the mate that I can love forever. That of course is why I am set to follow a very patient pursuit. That is the essence of all my postings. I guess it takes a while to get the essence out, eh? Thanks for caring everyone, J in LA
Author Extra Truth Posted December 29, 2005 Author Posted December 29, 2005 Rio I am definitely going to see the counselors first. Many many thanks again! J in LA
Author Extra Truth Posted December 29, 2005 Author Posted December 29, 2005 Hi Rio That oil mixture analogy still is provoking me, in a good way, because it's forcing me to continue thinking and make sure I'm respresenting all the facts (meaning, I'm viewing the history completely). I by all means was not a fuddy duddy in the sense of wood. In fact, she knew I was highly sexual and repressed (frankly, I am spending a lot of time rethinking my attitude on healthy sexuality, but I slightly digress), and demanded I release it with her. All she was asking me to do was be honest about myself about this emotionally, intellectually, and heal with her. I just didn't do it in time before she left. We are both fire, but I protected myself from her wind because I feared being perhaps snuffed out, but mostly forced into the uncomfortable emotional position of having confront myself. Of course, I know now, had I opened we would have been happily raging together like an inferno in a National Forest Also, I plan on dealing with the counselors about bridges that were not built. I think it's pretty obvious a lot were not, quite a few may have been burned. I don't want to burn any. In fact, my interest is learning how on Earth could I possibly build a new bridge to her. Unfortunately, she already turned down couples therapy--dismal prospects I know, but she is deeply frustrated. That's why I have to reach her some other way, through art, etc. The more I think of it, the more I think I need to see a counselor, but preferably a love coach type who has dealth with successful reunions. Just thinking out loud.... Thanks for caring Rio, Any you take care too, J in LA PS Probably wouldn't help to show her any of my message postings, not now, but sometime in the future, after counseling? Just an idea...
J dub Posted January 2, 2006 Posted January 2, 2006 ET: Rio has laid out exactly what I was thinking as I read thru the entirety of this thread: Whats done is done and you can only learn from it and move on. Not all relationships were meant to burn forever, this one likely being one of them unfortunately. Seems there's been too much clashing and colliding rather than accepting and loving. Regardless of the reasons of who did what, the point is that she made her intent clear: she doesnt see another chance. You have to respect her decision and continue on with your life accordingly (if you love them let go...). It's a harsh reality and someday you'll see this perhaps was a blessing in disguise. Probably wouldn't help to show her any of my message postings, not now, but sometime in the future, after counseling? Just an idea... No, my guess is youre both better off letting it be and to appreciate the relationship for what it was. No sense in kicking a dead horse...for lack of a better term. PS. Re: seeking a therapist known for assisting in reconciliations: There is not a known tool to use in which one can win another back. Its now left in the hands of fate and your best bet would be to find out the depth of your own identity first and foremost. That, ideally, will be obtained thru NC.
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