EA - How to handle OW's continued fishing calls/comments to my H

December 21, 2005

I apologize for how long this is, but I would love to hear suggestions of how to handle this situation, or if anyone has been there/done that and where they are now. I’ve read several threads throughout this site over the past four months and it seems as if some real encouraging help has been dispensed....

August 05 during vacation I found out my husband had gone to dinner with a girl he used to work with ... who was fired from his company and began working for a supply company that he has to order from. Initially, they had lunch which I knew about but thought that it was just fine because she was trying to get/keep their business, so I thought it was a business lunch. When my H told me he paid because he wasn’t going to have her pay I was a bit thrown back, but still did not think anything. What I have gathered is that during the course of this lunch, one of them suggested that since I was out of town that they go to dinner. The next day, she called him at work and asked if he was serious about going to dinner and they went to dinner that night. He picked her up from her house and met her son. Then at the end of the night when he dropped her off at her house she just got out of the truck. The next day he called her and asked her if she had wanted more, she said yes. He said he did too. The next morning he left to join me on vacation.

Some history here. Two years ago we had our first child (I have two older ones from a previous marriage). At the same time, we found out my husband has a degenerative autoimmune disease. The baby was very high maintenance and my H was taking pills that would basically knock him out at night, very early in the night (6:00 - 6:30 p.m.). Throughout the two years he was on a variety of medications for anything and everything to include depression. Side effects of some of them were to say the least, pretty bad for him. Heavy muscle relaxers really don’t help your sex life, so I don’t think I need to say anymore there. Some of the side effects of one actually increased his depression and he was having suicidal thoughts. Through all this I did not have his support in raising our baby, and because I was doing everything for the baby and he was always in bed within ½ hour after I got home at night, he didn’t have the support he felt he needed from me. Although I never said anything bad and I always told him I loved him and showed it with affection, my actions, etc., he was completely unhappy with anything and everything I did. I really believe it was because he was unhappy with himself and his health, which he had yet to accept ... and still has trouble dealing with today. So, when he was working with this girl, she always flirted with him and made him feel good. Of course, she knew he was married, but figured that he was unhappy in his marriage because he was always unhappy. So, of course, it had to be because of his marriage. So, she kept on calling him because she promised him, and had him promise her that they would always be friends, no matter what.

Skip forward to July 05. He started calling her at her work everyday to talk to her. She made him laugh and made him feel good about himself. He never told her anything personal about himself, me, or us. As a matter of fact, he never told her he was sick, or has chronic depression and has thoughts of suicide since he was 12 and the depression and thoughts were only made worse by his disease and the medications. He never told her about his gun collection, or that he has certain licenses to carry, or that he enjoys motorcycle riding, four-wheeling, camping. He was very tight about any information on him. Information that he shared was general things like daily activities, what our kids were during, her kids, etc. Since she had worked for his company they were able to talk about the same people. Since she knew his line of work he was able to talk to her about those things that he would have to explain to me. She did most of the talking and personal information. They had a middle school in common and she knew some of the people he knew from school, he thought that was pretty cool at the time. She had a son at 19, married a different guy when she was 24, had a daughter with him, and then he left her for another woman when her daughter was two. NOTE here: She told my H that she was divorced and has been alone for eight years, but public records show that she stayed married to her H for six more years before she divorced him. She told my H that all the good men are married, or gay. When he had called her and asked her if she wanted more, she told him that it bothers her that he is married, but she cared enough for him to overlook it. Nice of her, huh?

Needless to say, we came back early from our vacation. Back and forth over a two week period if he was going to stay with me or move in with her ... yes, she invited him to live with her because she didn’t want him to have to stay in a motel or anything like that when he was trying to decide what he was going to do/what he wanted. Of course, she had told him that he couldn’t stay with me because I would only try to influence him to stay and I would say and do this and that and she just wanted to prepare him for what I would do, so that he could fight it/me.

End result of it all is that we have worked through it all and we are together. He never slept with her, which I honestly believe if he had I wouldn’t have worked it out with him. But, because that didn’t happen, thankfully I didn’t have to test my feelings there. However, he did kiss her. The night we got back from vacation he had to go talk to her in person to let her know that we were going to work things out. What he told her was that he wanted to be with her, but because of our son really needed to work it out with me. He then kissed her. I have a huge issue with that, but I can’t change it, it happened. The next two week were up and down with him going back and forth in his decision. One day I told him I was done, I didn’t want this and that was it, I was done. Then he decided that he wanted to work it out with me, etc., etc. All the things that everyone here has gone through, all the fights, the words, the emotions, we both went through. I went to her work and met with her. He made the choice to be with me. Of course, she tried all the usual things, trying to make him feel guilty, playing the I need help trick, the I’m sick trick, the I’m going out to bars to try to make him feel guilty trick. All of that she has tried.

Funny thing is that she is nothing that he would have ever even brought home to Mom and Dad. She, with him telling me this when he first meet her via work, and even to this day, although he says he wouldn’t never say that to her, it would be too mean, looks rode hard and put away wet. She definitely spent too much time in the sun and looks about 10 years older than she really is. She smokes, when he is adamant against ... yet she would have stopped for him which is what she told him. She has an earring in her nose, which he doesn’t like, and little did she know, but he said that would have came out. He was already thinking of ways to change who she was because she was nothing that he liked, except for the talking and making him feel good part.

Anyway - skip to where I need some good advice .... Now he admits he f***** up, he doesn’t understand how he did it, how he said some of the things he said, he was a complete a**hole and all the other things. All he wants is us, if I didn’t work it out with him and forgive him, he still wouldn’t have wanted anything to do with her, he was crazy, he doesn’t know what he was thinking, etc., etc. I understand that we will never be able to make any kind of sense out of it because you just can’t make sense out of these kinds of things. But here is what is going on now:

He never calls her except for when he has to for work. Each time she always asks him to call her on another day to just talk, he always tells her he isn’t going to. At first he used the excuse that she’ll get fired, then he just started saying o.k., but then wouldn’t call her. She would follow-up with him a week later and ask why, he would respond with because I’ve been busy. She tries to make the conversations longer than necessary by trying to get personal each time. He keeps it short and does not go into what he believes is personal stuff ... he tries to stay with general information. She still calls him from time to time to see “how everything is” which she is just fishing for information on us. That is the problem. She is using the fact that she has to call him for work ... she is his supplier, so she does have to call from time to time to find out if he needs anything, etc. I work also, and know that this is a fact and something that can’t be changed. And, no, him working for a different company is not an option, nor is him ordering from a different company. However, when she calls to see how everything is, she is really asking him how he is doing for her. While he says that she never gets the answer she wants and never will, it still bothers the piss out of me. He says when I make a big deal out of it I act as if they are talking everyday and talking forever and that they have this huge secret going on. He lets me know when she calls and what they talk about, so it isn’t a secret. He will not tell her point blank as I have asked him to that he will not call her except for work and all the stuff that needs to go with that. He feels that she did nothing wrong and doesn’t deserve to be treated like crap just because he was the one who brought her into us. Some personal traits about my H: he would never have approached her if she hadn’t made sure he knew in no uncertain terms that the door was open; although he says what he wants when he wants and doesn’t bow to anyone ... he avoids any type of confrontation when it is uncomfortable for him, i.e., a friend who has several problems that we’ve helped him out of, he avoids his calls, when he was mad at his mother for something, he avoided her calls for one year. He will avoid personal confrontation when it involves feelings at all costs, additionally, since he feels he is the one that crossed the line (which I don’t disagree with) he feels that she didn’t do anything, she was just being his friend and letting him know that she would do anything for him and there was nothing wrong with that.

So, how do I handle these calls from her? No, they are not every week. Sometimes it can be three weeks before he has to call her for supplies, or she calls him to check on everything. I would dearly love to rub her face in crap believe me. I have thought of all kinds of wicked things I could do, but believe in Karma, so am afraid to do anything. Besides, that isn’t the type of person I am. So, since everything is going great with my h and I, better now as the communication that we both lacked with each during those two years is back, (how we both got to where he couldn’t tell me how he was feeling emotionally and I couldn’t tell him I needed more help from him I don’t know), but how do I handle this calls that just get under my skin because I know she is just trying to stay in the background, waiting for her chance to pounce? Because I am at work, I will view the posts/replies frequently. I have never posted on a board before either, but really would love to here some replies and get some support on how to deal with this. Thank you to all.

December 21, 2005

He needs to tell her not to contact him except for the business they must conduct. Period.

It's his issue to deal with her actually and not yours. She is just a condition of the problem that were going on with him and with the marriage.

Is he getting IC? Are you guys going to MC?

December 21, 2005

I agree with you, but know that he won't do this. He will not deal with it head on and forcing it isn't an option because it will only cause problems. His thought is that eventually she will get the message and also that she won't wait forever. So, it remains that she tries, in her own way, to let him know that the door is open for him if he chooses to go that route. That is what drives me crazy, her speaking to him so friendly.

Additionally, I want to ask every day if he talked to her, but I don't. It is something I think about each day. I feel as if I know that they talk, then it is something I can control. If I don't know that they talked, and what they talked about, then I feel as if I don't have any control over the situation. I know that an A will either happen or it won't, and I also know that an A won't happen, specifically with her. But her continuing to try, even though he hasn't given her clear direction that it will never happen because HE doesn't want it to happen, makes me upset with both of them. I understand his point and really do understand her's ... she thinks (because she has been led to believe that he wants to be with her, but can't because of our son) that he is unhappy with us and wants to be with her, not me, but his constant need to do what is right is the only reason why he is with me. So, because of this thought that she has, she continues to try by going above and beyond what she really needs to be doing for actual work related issues.

One of my problems with this is that he told her this the first week of August (that he wanted to be with her, but that he needs to stay with me. In the middle of August he told her that he has to do all that he can to make our marriage work. Since then, he hasn't called her except for work related issues and when they do have to talk, keeps the conversations very short (2 - 3 minutes) and when she try's to get personal he changes the subject (which he is very proud of doing and let's me know as if I am supposed to congratulate hime on that - I do let him know that I appreciate it, but since it is something that he should do automatically, don't feel that I should be getting up off my chair clapping). But this is five months later and she is still trying. (Yes, I know because he hasn't made it clear to her, but he won't because he will avoid that.) When will she stop? I thought for sure that she would have stopped by October ... she hasn't. Any clues? Any ideas?

And, thank you for replying and your thoughts!

December 22, 2005

So, she kept on calling him because she promised him, and had him promise her that they would always be friends, no matter what.

Well, first things first..... That woman is NOT his "friend". If she was, she'd be respectful of his decisions to revitalize his marital relationship and to strengthen his family.

And that's not what's happening, is it? As you noted here:

....she tried all the usual things, trying to make him feel guilty, playing the I need help trick, the I’m sick trick, the I’m going out to bars to try to make him feel guilty trick. All of that she has tried.

These behaviors are predictable....for us women at least. We can readily identify another woman's motives and behaviors in a way that a man can't quite fully appreciate.

My husband was flabbergasted when I predicted every single move the OW would make. I stayed one step ahead of her, so when she went for the 'jealousy routine' he was ready. When she tweaked his nose about "running home to wifey", he knew it was coming. When she vowed friendship but continued to make overtures and innuendos, I was there to point out the inconsistancies in her words. But he was BLOWN AWAY when I told him that "within three days, she'll have some sort of emergency that she desperately needs your help with". Too predictable.

You and I might know that, but your husband probably doesn't know it yet. Unfortunately, it might take some time for him to see the TRUTH, because of what he told you here:

...he feels that she didn’t do anything, she was just being his friend and letting him know that she would do anything for him and there was nothing wrong with that.

Now, I wouldn't stand by and idly tolerate the "friendly" phone calls from her. Afterall, your husband gave you cause for doubt by indulging in inappropriate behavior. While you don't want to be dictatorial regarding his friendships....this one did cross the line. So, you're within your rights to insist that this person keep her distance.

In the meantime, you've had two different messages from your husband. This one:

What he told her was that he wanted to be with her, but because of our son really needed to work it out with me.

And then this one:

All he wants is us, if I didn’t work it out with him and forgive him, he still wouldn’t have wanted anything to do with her, he was crazy, he doesn’t know what he was thinking....

Those two statements are in complete oppostition to each other, and yet....you're still with him. You must believe the latter of the two, and there's got to be some reason for that.

I can identify with how hurtful the memories are; how you play those bad ones again over and over in your mind. It's a terrific struggle to STOP doing that.

But there comes a time when you have to reinforce your choices with actions. You chose to believe in him. Now, you need to back that up with active trust. If he has to speak with her in regards to business, then you need to keep the lines of communication open between you and him. If you can do that, then he'll comfortable to tell you all about what was said.

It'll help immensely if you continue to strengthen your marriage. The OW won't have much room to operate if hubby is content on the homefront. And you can still continue to 'submarine' her by exposing her ploys. Just remember...."these things must be done delicately".

December 22, 2005

Ladyjane has given you great advice. Although I respect Pixie's advice this issue does concern you b/c it's causing problems in your M. If he can't respect your wishes and stop all contact w/ this OW besides business I would tell him he has a choice, you or her. There is no reason she has to be calling your H and talking to him about personal issues. No woman needs to be calling a MM about personal issues, JMO.

Your situation sounds very similiar to mine. The OW sounds like the same person, I could of wrote your post. Hmmmm, who knows, maybe it's the same OW as we are both from the midwest, it's a small world, wouldn't suprise me.

Anyhow, when my H had an A 2 years ago (during our separation and pending D) she wouldn't stop calling or coming over to the house until I put a stop to it. After he broke it off w/ her she would continue to call him, or stop by the house. He told her that all contact needs to be stopped besides business ( he was her supervisor). Well, she never stopped until one day when I let her have it. She called and I answered the phone. She wanted to speak w/ H about a co-worker. I told her to stop calling and she hasn't since then. Sometimes it takes the W to make it clear not to call anymore. It did in my situation anyhow.

From your post she doesn't sound like she is just a friend, she wants more than that, and you need to make it a point you will not tolerate her calling for personal reasons. I am sorry you are dealing w/ this...it sucks.

December 22, 2005

I agree that he is not her "friend." Funny, this week when I responded very negatively to her calling just to see how he was one of his comments was that he wasn't going to be an a**h*** to her when all she was was a good friend. I said she isn't a good friend. He said o.k. a friend then. I said she isn't a friend either. Later in the conversation, after he was duly mad, he said she isn't a friend because I won't let them be friends. He did apologize for this and said that I just push his buttons over and over and then he says things without thinking, but regrets them later. So, no, she isn't being a true friend, although if you were to ask her, she probably would say that she is, she is supporting him and she has told him that he should be with me and that she knows he will make it work with me because that is the type of guy he is. She has said that to him. However, she has also made comments (which he told her to stop making and from what I understand she has) like when he would say we went camping, she would say something like oh, how nice (sarcastically), or when he would say that we went shopping, she would tell him how she loves to go shopping for anything and everything (I feel her way to tell him that she would love to go shopping with him anytime).

You are totally right when you say that we as women know what other women will do, or what they really mean when they say something. I told my husband this relative to one particular point ... he was calling her to get pricing information, she wouldn't call him back. She didn't call him back for four days (which he doesn't like from any supplier). I told him it was because she was trying to make it bother him and that she would tell him she was busy if he asked. But I also told him not to ask because that would justify it to her. He disregarded me and asked her anyway (his point is that he would have asked why any of his suppliers didn't call him back ... his way of letting them know he doesn't appreciate it and doesn't want it to continue). She told him that she was just too busy.

Unfortunately for me when this all began, she told him exactly what I would do ... to prepare him, of course. Because I was in such shock, and didn't have anyone to guide me, I didn't know that I should have told him everything that she would do. Now to do it though would seem pointless in that to him it is over and the calls are strictly for work. Interesting enough, I had accidentally posted on the OW/OM site my original post. I have had some great responses on that post. One of them, which is food for thought, is that maybe this is his whole way of gaining and keeping my attention? If you are interested in reading other suggestions/comments, and my responses to them, you can see it on the OW/OM site under the same title. Actually, on my screen at the bottom of the whole thread here I see other threads that are in common with this one and the link is there for my thread ... I don't know how to link it from here, sorry.

Funny thing that I told my H when she told him she was busy. He said why would she do that, there was absolutely no reason for her to lie to him (he doesn't ever believe in lying ... although he obviously kept some feelings from me, he doesn't believe in lying) I told him that all women play games. He said she doesn't. I said all women do, whether they admit it, or not. He said she told him she doesn't play games, that she wasn't in elementary school. I told him that since he didn't have a vag***, he would never understand it. He just looked at me as if my head just fell off, but I think he got the message. However, I don't think he still comprehends all that a woman can do without being overly blunt about it. I don't think he ever will.

Some history here - his first ever anytype of girlfriend was when he was 20. She was late thirties, early 40's. It was a sex only type of relationship that lasted for two/three years on and off. His second relationship with a girl was a girl that when he was working out of state she came on to him and asked him for a date (she liked his car). The fooled around, she got kicked out of her apartment the next day and had to stay with him (she had a small child). They were together for about six or nine months, he told her he loved her in response to her saying it once. Then he realized he didn't and never said it again. After about six months of her living off of him, he got tired of her and kicked her out. Then he came back here to our state, met me and that is it. I am his only real relationship. He didn't ever care about the other two except for sex and said and did what he wanted to and didn't care about their feelings which he readily admits. He has never had to compromise with anyone (only child) and struggles with it in our marriage. But, because he didn't have any relationships growing up and the only two he had were completely sexual, he hasn't ever been subjected to games that women can play.

I would love for him to find out the truth about her, or realize the truth I should say. Based upon her history, I would say that she is the type of woman that goes after married men in a way to justify to herself that she still has it (since her h left her for another woman) and in a way, maybe, so that she doesn't have to make a committment to anyone where she will wind up getting really hurt. Sleeping with men, and THEN finding out they're married? He says they lied to her. Not saying they didn't, but really how long did she really get to know them before she slept with them? Of course everyone makes mistakes, but she has two kids, I would think that after making the same mistake twice, you wouldn't make it again. But she did sleep with several men then found out they were married. To me, it seems that she was just trying to get them away from their wives and never succeeded?

I've been very good at not dictating to my H what he can and can't do. However, he does understand that anything personal is and always will be totally unacceptable to me. While he isn't an outright a** to her, which I understand because he doesn't want to jeopordize his job when he has to order from her, and he does want to try and get a good price on supplies, he does keep the conversations short, when she tries to get too personal (family, me and him) he tells her everything is good very good actually and then immediately changes the subject.

The first message that I got from him when he told her that he wanted to be with her was the first week in August. Since then it has totally changed and he doesn't understand what he was thinking. However, he has never told her, so she is still under the assumption that he wants to be with her. He feels that she will eventually get the message. I would think that she would too. Heck, I thought she would have given up by October. But obviously she hasn't and that has me as to a loss of why. Another suggestion on the OW/OM site was that maybe she will never give up. Not that she is pining away from him, but since she obviously likes him, she will always be there waiting for us to not work.

OMG! It is a struggle to forget the things that were said. He said them to me and honestly that they were true at the time. Now he doesn't even believe that he could have done that to me. (one note that I posted on the OM/OW site - he stopped taking his medication for depression in July which I did not know about until he started taking them again in August per the doctors recommendation) I try everyday to forget them and sometimes I can for a few days, but current events I relate to the past and that is when it hurts. I need to figure out how to not relate current events to the past. An example: He hates smokers with a passion. (She smoked, but said she would quit, for him.) He used to always say something negative when we would see someone (specifically with a child in the car) smoking away, or when they would flick a cigarette out the windor. Now when he says it I wonder how in the world did he see anything in her? How did he ever think a relationship would work with them. His response? He wasn't thinking.

But there comes a time when you have to reinforce your choices with actions. You chose to believe in him. Now, you need to back that up with active trust. If he has to speak with her in regards to business, then you need to keep the lines of communication open between you and him. If you can do that, then he'll comfortable to tell you all about what was said.

It'll help immensely if you continue to strengthen your marriage. The OW won't have much room to operate if hubby is content on the homefront. And you can still continue to 'submarine' her by exposing her ploys. Just remember...."these things must be done delicately".

I'm trying to reinforce it with actions. It has been almost four weeks since I've said anything about her. But this past Monday I couldn't hold it in when he told me that she called last week just to see how everything was going for him. I asked him why he can't just tell her that he isn't going to call her except for work and he would appreciate it if she would respect that. That isn't being mean at all, in fact, it is honest and letting her know not to keep any hope there. However, he feels that it is important to keep at least part of his promise to her to always be friends, even though he realizes that they really aren't friends. I asked him to explain to me why it is important for him to keep part of a promise to someone who isn't important to me. He said he didn't know. (In my heart I know it is because that is the type of person he is and he is struggling with this, he doesn't like liars, and probably knows that he lied to her ... but doesn't see telling her would be any better ... and I don't know how to get across to him that it would be better.) Then he got very upset. I believe, as I told him the next day, the reason why I think he gets so upset is because he is upset with himself, but to look in the mirror and say it is a different story, so he has to take that anger out on someone else and here I am. He didn't deny this. One thing he said is that if a dead relative was looking down on him and seeing how he is acting (relative to him getting mad at me) and what led up to this, he would be embarrased.

He is very comfortable with me and tells me things from his day that might include calls he had to make, which then tells me that he talked to her, to which I usually don't reply to because I know it was for work and if she asked him how he was then I think whatever. It was just her calling specifically to ask him how he was, with nothing to do with work, that I lost my cool.

I agree that the OW won't have a leg to stand on, shoot, she doesn't right now. I give her more power in my mind than any that she ever even had. How can I "submarine" her efforts by putting the thought in his head without him even realize it? I shared a few things the other night ... I told him that I knew she was going to play the I need help trick and gave him the example, I told him that she was going to play the I'm sick trick and gave him the example. I told him that she was going to play the we'll be friends trick and gave the phone calls to check on his as an example. He couldn't rebut any of them although I know he wanted to just to say that he isn't wrong, but he couldn't so he bit his tongue. Any other suggestions on that page?

Mopar Crazy - who knows it might be the same woman... two years ago she was living up north (same state) and then moved down here, and she seems to have only dated married men .... and, since my husband is into mopar and has his own old car, maybe she goes for the same type of men? That's a thought. She called for my H one day on his cell phone, I answered it ... she seemed shocked, but still asked for him. This was the day following the night he told her that he wanted to be with her, but had to work it out with me because of our son .... and kissed her. So, even though she knew he was going to try to work it out with me, she obviously wasn't a true friend because she wouldn't have called him.

I have thought several times over the past few days about calling her and telling her not to call him except for work and to tell her all the things I know that she has tried to show her that he tells me everything. But in a very strong way, I want him to be the one to do it. Kind of like a hoop I want him to jump through for me, but won't make him do it. I can say though, that if this type of stuff continues, that I will probably make a comment to H that I have thought about calling her myself to tell her to stop calling him for anything for work, don't ask him how he is doing and don't ask him to call you, because he isn't. He assumed that you would get the message, but obviously you hadn't and see what his response is. I would do that to gauge his reaction because then I would call her and tell her. I wish I had a script though as it would make it a lot easier. LOL I hate confrontation myself and she probably is a nice person, but she needs to find her own h, preferably someone who isn't already someone else's H!

It does suck to be in this place doesn't it? I only hope that it doesn't last much longer ... which it would be excellerated if she stopped calling, but since I know that won't happen, can only wait until I don't care anymore. Although I wonder, if I don't care anymore, then it would be because I don't care anymore about the relationship. I think I will always care when someone is calling my husband that wants something more from him than what is right, or even what is offered. He would have the same problem, which he readliy admits, but also says that if I told him nothing will happen and told him that I won't ever let it get to that point again and that I want nothing to do with that person, etc., etc., that he would have to believe me. He says the whole problem is because I don't trust him now...... I trust him, but I don't. I trust him, but I fear the pain that I now know ever happening again and want to guard myself against it. I'm trying very hard and have been successful in not building a wall against him, but at the same time, me fear is overrunning my logic.

December 23, 2005

Your H's attitude about all this was the same as my H's during his emotional A (which turned into a PA shortly after he said he wanted a D). Anyhow, she never called H, but I did see her number on the cell bill and confronted him about it. He said he needed to talk to her about a CD he borrowed. He told her I was upset he borrowed it from her so he was going to burn it and then return it the next day. The time was about 4 minutes on that call. Less than a month later he said he wanted a D, claimed I wasn't happy, he couldn't make me happy, and was letting me go to find someone who could make me happy. After I kicked him out of the house I got the cell bill. Her number was on there several times, some where short calls, others were an hour or more. I asked him what was going on. He said they were just friends, she was there for him b/c he was going through a lot (second thoughts about the D). Total BS lies. Instead of talking to me about what he was going through he was going to her. We should of been working on it together but he was going to her for advice. She even told me when I confronted her that they were just friends. Then I heard from friends they were having an A. Her H even came to my house and told me they were having an A. He showed me pictures of their vehicles parked 2gether in her garage, and even love poems and letters to her. The truth was finally coming out. Of course I confronted him, he denied it. She denied it, said it was lies, and laughed about it. I told her I didn't give a s*** what happened between them but to at least respect me and wait until the D was final b/c then we would all know the M was def over.

He calls me a few days later and tells me b4 I heard it from someone else he gave the OW a ride back to work from the repair shop as she didn't have a ride. I told him I was going to call her, he told me not to. I hung up, he kept trying to call me on my cell, on my home phone (caller waiting/id) so I wouldn't call her. He was in a panic, he didn't want me calling her, kept begging me not to call her. I did anyhow and told her to stay the f#ck away from him until the D was final. She hung up on me. All lies. He didn't want to let their relationship go even though I told him he can't have both of us. Since he refused to give her up, I packed up my things and our children and I moved away. It didn't take but a month for him to call me back begging me to take him back. He broke it off w/ the OW and we have been working on our M for almost 3 years since Dday.

Sorry to get on my story about this, I just wanted to let you know what you are going through. I know you don't want to tell him what to do, but he needs to know this relationship w/ this woman is not acceptable. Like you said, she is playing games w/ him. I understand that your H's needs to converse w/ her b/c of business but that is all it should be. He is not respected your wishes by continuing to talk to her on a personal level. If she can't take it from him then maybe you need to call her. Tell her since she can't seem to take the hint about not calling him on a personal level you are calling and telling her. If she does not stop calling him on a personal level you will turn her into her employer. I am not saying that it will work but something needs to be done.

December 23, 2005

However, he feels that it is important to keep at least part of his promise to her to always be friends, even though he realizes that they really aren't friends. I asked him to explain to me why it is important for him to keep part of a promise to someone who isn't important to me. He said he didn't know. (In my heart I know it is because that is the type of person he is and he is struggling with this, he doesn't like liars, and probably knows that he lied to her ... but doesn't see telling her would be any better ... and I don't know how to get across to him that it would be better.) Then he got very upset. I believe, as I told him the next day, the reason why I think he gets so upset is because he is upset with himself, but to look in the mirror and say it is a different story, so he has to take that anger out on someone else and here I am. He didn't deny this. One thing he said is that if a dead relative was looking down on him and seeing how he is acting (relative to him getting mad at me) and what led up to this, he would be embarrased.

He's still emotionally attached to her, otherwise he wouldn't care if he broke a promise to her. He's breaking a BIG promise to you. The vows you each took when you got married.

He doesn't believe in lying, yet he is lying to the OW, to you and most of all, to himself. With big blinders on too! I'm sorry to say this, but I think he's acting like a fool! She is still feeding his ego so he is getting something out of it. Which ofcourse he is hiding from you - It's that what she doesn't know won't hurt her. He isn't ready to let go of the OW.

You have some wonderful advice by LJ and MP!

December 23, 2005

He's still emotionally attached to her, otherwise he wouldn't care if he broke a promise to her. He's breaking a BIG promise to you. The vows you each took when you got married.

He doesn't believe in lying, yet he is lying to the OW, to you and most of all, to himself. With big blinders on too! I'm sorry to say this, but I think he's acting like a fool! She is still feeding his ego so he is getting something out of it. Which ofcourse he is hiding from you - It's that what she doesn't know won't hurt her. He isn't ready to let go of the OW.

You have some wonderful advice by LJ and MP!

WWIU is right on the money w/ this one. He can't let her go and he is feeding off the attention she is giving him. I hope he sees what he is doing is wrong and is putting his M at risk. If he really doesn't want to speak to the OW on a personal level he will put an end to it. Screw that not wanting to be mean to her crap. He is so worried about upsetting her he can't see how much it's upsetting you, his W.

After my H told the exOW he wanted to keep their relationship on a personal level she didn't take him seriously. He was in a bad mood one day and she told him "Maybe we need to go have a nooner." B!TCH! After that he IM'ed her and told her they could not have a personal relationship anymore, no more nooner or other sex comments, strictly business. She told him that it would be weird, and it would be hard for her to change and not be flirty w/ him anymore. He told her she needed to find someone else to flirt w/. Of course it ended up bad (she got H fired, long story) but at least he wasn't working w/ her anymore, TG.

Your H needs to wake up and stop being a fool about all this. He is going to loose you if this doesn't stop. Show him this thread if you want. You don't deserve this from him and the OW. GL

December 24, 2005

He's still emotionally attached to her, otherwise he wouldn't care if he broke a promise to her.

Agreed. Although, it may not be the OW herself that he's "emotionally attached to", but rather what she represents. True, he might really like her for herself....but he might also just be enjoying the DRAMA of it all. Maybe even a combination of both.

This is interesting, exciting stuff from his point of view....two women vying for his attention. As you said earlier, he hasn't had a whole lot of experience with romance. All that drama produces a bit of a chemical 'rush'. If he's in midlife crisis or suffering depression....it could be that he's needy of those feel-good chemicals. If he's a bit addicted....he's going to balk at giving all that up.

You're the one who's in the best postion to know how insistant you should be on 'No Contact' with the OW. You know his personality and his circumstances. Sometime it's wise to draw a line in the sand. Othertimes it's wise to wean your partner off of his 'drug of choice' more slowly.

If your confidence level is high that he's maintaining fidelity, and he's active in rebuilding the marriage....then the choice is yours. You can afford some latitude if you want to take a softer approach.

Should he cross the line again..... Well, then it's time to get tough with him.

December 27, 2005

Lady Jane -

I know my H likes the OW ... he always said before all this happened that she and I would get along, that I would like her, etc. She made him laugh and feel good about himself. While I am comfortable with knowing that he will never have a PA with her, I find myself worrying that either another EA will start (with her), or that because he is still emotionally attached, whether it is to her, or to the drama, that this EA will never end.

Of course, his biggest fantasy, shoot, his only fantasy, is having two women at once. Always has been, even though he knows it will never happen. Maybe this does excite him having two women trying to get his attention. However, if this does excite him, why does it make him mad when it gets me upset? Why does he not want me to talk about it, or bring it up? I'm not questioning your theory, just trying to understand it and see how it works with some of his responses when it is brought up. When I bring it up I have received a variety of answers from him. Some of them are: if I am crying, or visibly upset - "I thought we were doing well, exceptionally, well, but obviously we're not because I make you cry;" "Why do you do this to yourself? We're doing just fine and then you have to bring it up and then we have to start all over again." If I respond with any show of being mad, or anger - "It is like you are just stabbing the same wound over and over." "Quit kicking a dead horse;" "I know I f***** up, you don't need to keep rubbing my nose in it." etc.

If he gets a kick out of having two women wanting his attention, then why is it that he gets so upset? I assume it is because he knows it is wrong, that he was wrong, and that when he sees that I am hurt, then that which he tries to ignore and push away (his guilt) comes to the forground and that is when he gets mad.

Hmm. Absolutely no contact with the OW. I know that isn't an option for several reasons with the major one being work. The second, less obvious one, is that if I were to "tell" him that he can't talk to her ever, then he would be like a child that has been told what to do by his mother who does it because he can, but then he wouldn't share the information with me and hence, it would be a secret that would ultimately lead to the EA/or, PA. Tell him what he must do, and he balks, let him do what he knows is right on his own, and he does. After 10 years, I've figured that one out on him.

Am I over-reacting by getting so upset when they have to talk for work? For instance, my mind gets a thought in it like it did this weekend. On Friday, I just know that she called him last week for some reason just so that hse could say Merry Christmas, etc. I know that she'll call him this week to tell him Happy New Year, etc. It gets in my head and it won't go away, which then affects the way I respond, behave when I am with my H. Friday night I then have a bad dream, which her in it, of course, Saturday morning it is obviously top of my mind. He asks about my dream. I tell him that I dreamed she called him to wish him to wish him Merry Christmas, then she called him to tell him Happy New Year, then we were at a party that she showed up to and they were laughing and playing around. He didn't say anything, so I responded with oh, she did call you to tell you Merry Christmas didn't she. He said that she called to tell him that her site had a machine of his that had been fixed and that he needed to call the guy who fixed it to find out what was wrong with it. And yes, she did tell me to have a nice weekend and Merry Christmas, but that was it.

That is normal, business relations. I know that. I do it everyday. But, it is so different coming from her. Inside it burns me up and it feels as if I can't control the anger. I go from there thinking all kinds of things that she could have said that just maybe he isn't telling me about. In reality, I know that he is telling me everything, but I question it now. I question, how she can call him out of the blue only to ask him how he is doing on a personal level, to the next week she calls and it is strictly business relations? I know that she still has these feelings for my H. I know that he doesn't have those same feelings for her. But I feel so .... I don't even know the word to describe how I feel about it. Threatened? Territorial? Insecure?

He wants his secure, funny, smart-alec wife back. When I am on a role with these thoughts going through my head, I don't even know where she went. So, am I going over-board and if so, how do I control it? Is it only that time will heal and allow me to control it? Isn't there some other way that I can deal with all this? (BTW - no, he isn't telling me that I am going over-board and he does listen - for the most part - until he gets upset because I am hurting.) He is active in rebuilding our marriage and as I've said, I know that he is maintaining his fidility.

This weekend he said that he wants us to have a better year next year. Last night at dinner I asked him if he thinks we can have a better year. He responded with it is what we make of it. I didn't like that response. To me, in my mind, I interpreted it as he doesn't really want to be with me, but he is going to make the most of it. I said that to me that means he is only making the best of the situation, he responded by saying that we can have a good year, we can make it a great year, the best we've ever had. But I didn't respond because in my head I was thinking my first thought. He was disappointed because I didn't agree with him, I didn't say yes we can. He wants confirmation that I am in this marriage as well and that I have confidence that we will be happy and make it. However, I can't give him that confidence when my mind is running with other thoughts.

Can you help me by giving some more ideas of how to get over these thoughts that are so destructive, so that I can actively show him that I want our marriage as well, that I am secure in the knowledge that we will make it and that her calling him doesn't bother me because I know that it means nothing to him?

December 27, 2005

Well, for one thing....you can't keep rubbing his nose in it. He knows he did wrong. He knows he crossed the line. But he's not telling you why, so your mind is still questing for reasons. For him though....this thing is over. In his mind, it was an exciting flirtation. (Alot of guys don't really consider it cheating unless their pants come off. )

You're insecure...and you've got a right to be. Your husband has given something that was uniquely yours away to another woman. This emotional intimacy is not unlike physical intimacy. It was promised only to you....and yet shared with another

All that said, showing your insecurity can be detrimental after a time. It can impede in your ability to recreate the emotional intimacy that you crave because your husband will become increasingly defensive after a time. You want him to feel safe enough to trust you with whatever 'reasons' he felt he had. Otherwise, you won't get the answers that YOU need.

If you're not in counseling...and forgive me, I didn't review the thread....then it's a consideration. But you needn't fall to pieces if he shows no interest in going. You can get quite a bit accomplished by going alone.

In the meantime, one of the things that I found quite helpful during reconciliation was journaling. I kept two. One for VENTING out negative feelings that I didn't want him to read, (because not all my thoughts at the time were especially constructive. )

The other was for the both of us. Much like posting here, we could slow our communication down and REALLY think about what we wanted to say. It was a good way to clear up misunderstandings.

This weekend he said that he wants us to have a better year next year. Last night at dinner I asked him if he thinks we can have a better year. He responded with it is what we make of it. I didn't like that response. To me, in my mind, I interpreted it as he doesn't really want to be with me, but he is going to make the most of it. I said that to me that means he is only making the best of the situation, he responded by saying that we can have a good year, we can make it a great year, the best we've ever had. But I didn't respond because in my head I was thinking my first thought. He was disappointed because I didn't agree with him, I didn't say yes we can. He wants confirmation that I am in this marriage as well and that I have confidence that we will be happy and make it. However, I can't give him that confidence when my mind is running with other thoughts.

There was something missing in your relationship. Unfortunately, we're not always doing our best job in meeting our partner's needs. While that doesn't absolve your husband from making wrong choices, his wrong choices don't absolve YOU from whatever problems you might have brought to the table.

He still wants to be heard. He wants to know that you're willing to address his unmet needs in the relationship. He wants to know if you are willing to work on changing things. If you are, then he thinks it'll be a good year....particularly if you're both working together.

I think you misunderstood his statements above. They didn't seem to be about him not being where he wants to be. He's already made his choice, and his choice was YOU. That's why he can't understand why you're still upset.

You're feelings are awfully raw right now. So, it'll take time for you both to get your communications problems ironed out. Be patient with each other.

Here's an oldie, but a goodie....Listen, Rephrase, Repeat. Sometimes what one partner says is misinterpreted by the other. This tool can solve ALOT of that. Use it liberally.

December 28, 2005

Thank you for responding, again. You are right, I can't keep rubbing his nose in it and I honestly try not to. It is that sometimes I want verification that he is where he wants to be right now, right this minute. That he knows he made the right decision in staying in our marriage and that he wants our marriage as much as I do. Logicially, I know that he does, otherwise he wouldn't be with me and doing the things he does. And yes, actions do speak louder than words, but sometimes because I have all these thoughts in my head, I need to hear the words directly from him. That is when he gets upset because he feels I am making us go through it all again. I agree wtih you that my feelings are very raw at this moment. I've read through some of your postings and threads throughout the past year and wonder how did you get to the secure person you are right now, just time and repeated actions by your H?

How did we get to where we are now? I do actually know the answer to that. Two years ago we had a baby. At the same time we found out H had a disease. Lots of medications had side-effects, some didn't. He also has dealt with depression on and off since age 12; although it has been about three years since he really went through it. Baby was very colicky and needy. I felt that H would understand that I needed to spend the time with baby. H is quick to say he wasn't jealous of the time I spent with baby, but at the same time resented that I couldn't just climb in bed with him when he wanted me to hold him, or that we could just talk w/o being interrupted, or that I could go do things with him on the spur of the moment at night or on weekends. He would get upset and say things like what is the use when we try to talk and then the baby would cry. He would say things like I miss my wife, I miss my bestfriend. While I acknowledged this and indicated that I missed him, I didn't realize how important it was to him to have my undivided attention. He got that through the OW via work. She laughed with him, told him jokes, talked about people they work with, etc. Then in July it got to where they were talking five, six times a day during work. End of July/first week of August is when I found out b/c he told me. Anyway, now we are where we are today. Every Thursday the baby stays with my parents (who watch him during the day) and one weekend a month he stays with either my parents, or his parents. Every other Tuesday he also stays with my parents as my Dad takes him to swimming lessons. We both are communication more and talking, talking, talking. Listen, rephrase and repeat ... I have been doing that more and more.

However, you brought up that I am not getting the answers that I need. Is that what my insecurity is about? I don't know all the details and don't really want to. Knowing that he kissed her is enough to drive me out of my mind. Him telling me that he didn't enjoy it, that it wasn't us, doesn't help at all. Knowing that it was once doesn't help at all. For the most part, I know all the details, the only talking was done via work and she did most of it. She didn't know any personal information about H, specifically his disease, or about the depression. He intended to never tell her, even though she invited him to live with her when he wasn't sure want he wanted. He didn't plan on staying with her although he indicated to me that she may become our son's step-mom so I shouldn't say anything bad about her. In the next breath though he would say that he knows he would come back and it probably wouldn't take two weeks, but he knew it would be unfair of him to ask me to wait. In the long run, he knew it would be a one-way street and since losing me wasn't an option for him, he stayed. I think in a way he may have been trying to see what he thought he was missing sex wise? Not sure on that one, but it was one thing he had said. (Don't know if you read this part, or not, but he has only been in two other relationships and both of those were for sex only.)

Not in counseling. He feels that a counselor would only point fingers and bring up things from the past that are better left in the past, i.e., her. You agree that for him it is over. He has no idea what he was thinking, or how he could have ever said and done the things he did. He said he was out of his mind, he f***** up all of that. But I ask you, can it be over for him when he still has to talk to her at work. I mean, for a woman, it isn't that easy just to drop all feelings. Is it really that different for a man? He tells me that he doesn't think of her like I think he does. That he doesn't think of her like that at all. So, when he talks to her it is business only, even though he knows that she is asking how he is doing for herself. Could he be telling the truth? I think he is, I really do know he is. But am so afraid of the hurt and pain if it happens again that I'm expecting it to happen again. I know that is what is causing the problems now, me expecting it to happen, so I'm not allowing us to really be. I know I'm doing it, but don't see where I can prevent it. I know that my constant focusing on her, when he doesn't even think about her, is detrimental to us.

I do keep a journal at work that I sometimes imagine letting him read. Never have though. My venting is usually done with a g/f via email who went through a PA three years ago with her husband. I worry that showing him either this thread, or my journal will just bring up bad memories and prove him right that I just won't let this go. That is what he say's ... see, I told you that you won't let this go. Everytime I think things are going great, you have to bring it up and we have to start all over again. It is more so brought up because I ask what they talked about, in a very neutral voice, and I get a response that is hard not to respond back to in a neutral tone of voice. Maybe I just shouldn't ask anymore. I know that then we wouldn't have any problems. But, then I feel one of two things. One, that because I don't know what they talked about, then maybe I am missing something and it could happen again. Two, I feel that I am lying to myself and internalizing feelings that should be discussed. Make sense?

December 28, 2005

Lady Jane -

I just want to quickly clarify something. He thinks everything is good and that we are doing better than we ever have before ... as long as I don't bring her up, or question him to deeply. If I ask what she said and leave it at that, then it is left there. It is when I question his reaction to her, i.e., when I asked why it was so important to him to keep part of his promise to someone who isn't important to us. But, if I don't bring it up, if I don't question him when a thought comes into my mind, or plays there all day long, that I feel like I am lying to him and keeping things from him, which isn't us at all. So, I feel to get through this I need to share my thoughts and feelings with him relative to it, but at the same time, realize I can't bring it up everyday, or really every week. It needs to be let go, but I'm having a hard time doing that and I really don't know why ... all it is filled with is pain. That isn't to say that we didn't learn something from this, because we did. But I need to figure out a way to get past this, to not dwell on her, to not let it bother me knowing that she is waiting to pounce if I make a mistake, because if we are getting along even remotely as good as we are now, then you are right, she won't have a leg to stand on. But, how do I get there that I don't care what she thinks, or that she is there waiting? How do I get there w/o jeapordizing what my H and I are trying so hard to rebuild and maintain?

December 28, 2005

I think you're focusing alot on what specifically was said between your husband and the OW. I can identify with that. I think most BS's can. It's VERY difficult to make yourself stop obsessing over it. But for your own peace of mind....you have to.

The questions really boil down to, "What has she got that I haven't got? Why did you want to be with her? Why did you leave me?"

When you stop to look at it, it's really all about examining your relationship with each other. You want that information as a basis of comparison, so that you can see how it relates to YOU.

The specifics of his conversations with the OW are unimportant. You are ALREADY in the best position to examine the marital relationship. You are in it.

You asked how I got through it? Well, I don't know that I would have if my husband wasn't a GREAT guy. He gave me all the support I needed. He knew I was shook up, and he went the extra mile to make me feel secure again. I won't say he never grumbled, but even then...he answered my questions and kept on rebuilding my shattered self esteem.

I journaled out the repeating thoughts. It helped to stop them from swimming about in my head all day when I committed them to paper. Those went into the ''venting" journal.

But the "shared" journal gave him an opportunity to correct misunderstandings, and it gave him a window into my thought process. It was a way of communicating emotions....without the drama.

Because I was having trouble asking for my needs to be met, our counselor suggested that my husband come to ME and ask if I needed to talk periodically. I had become to feel like a complete harpie....and had pretty much clammed up. By making my husband integral in the communications process, it put some control back in his hands. He didn't feel like he was 'on the witness stand' all the time anymore.

I had to administer a quite few stern talks to myself, at times even daily. I had to remind myself to support my own decisions. I had already made my choice. I had elected to forgive. Because I had done so, I could not go back on my word. So, I could no longer harbor resentment for his transgressions anymore. It wouldn't be right.

And since our forgiveness was MUTUAL, he couldn't hold onto any resentments towards me. Imagine 20 years of built-up junk just tossed out the window. It's like the weight of the world being lifted off your shoulders...for BOTH of you. Heck, it's easy to stay with that one....'cause you don't want all that excess baggage back in your life once it's gone.

This next part is the toughie though. It's the 'leap of faith'. I chose to believe in my husband. I had no proof of his honesty. I have none today when you think about it. But I still choose to believe.

It's difficult to take a man at his word....AFTER he's told two different stories. Do I believe him when he says that I'm the only woman for him? 'Cause he said that to her too for all I know. But that's what Faith is all about. It's believing without tangible proof.

A short while into the process, I realized that he had ALREADY hurt my feelings as much as I was ever going to tolerate. I lost 20 pounds in a month on "the Infidelity Diet" and I felt sick to my stomach every day....but I was still standing. And I was still strong. And if it ever happened again I would survive.

After that realization, I was free. I had nothing to lose that hadn't been lost once already....so why not dive in? Anything worth doing is worth doing right afterall, so why not give it my BEST effort?

Anyhow, that's the short version. (As short as it gets anyway!)

I think your best bet is to keep working on communications, and identifying ENs. That's for BOTH of you, not just him. Don't be afraid to ask for what you really need. You won't be happy together for long, if you end up neglecting yourself.

December 28, 2005

I had to remind myself to support my own decisions. I had already made my choice. I had elected to forgive. Because I had done so, I could not go back on my word. So, I could no longer harbor resentment for his transgressions anymore. It wouldn't be right.

And since our forgiveness was MUTUAL, he couldn't hold onto any resentments towards me. Imagine 20 years of built-up junk just tossed out the window.

Those words are so true, LJ. Once you made the decision to forgive then it was time to move forward. This, in essence I think is what is so hard for the BS.

December 28, 2005

Your right, I am focusing on the conversations that took place between H and OW. I'm trying to put all the pieces together, even though I know that the puzzle will never be complete. He didn't know what he was saying and doing at that time and it doesn't make any sense. I know it never will, but I still try to put it all together so that I can follow along the process and see exactly where it changed for him and OW. Since I know that it will never make sense, and because he can't explain it himself then that is what I need to just let go, right?

I have forgiven him and in fact, don't even bring up (with him ... I am here) what actually happened because I forgave him. I know there was more on her side than there was on his and thankfully, they never slept together. Don't know if I would have forgiven it if that had happened. And, in all honesty, if she were completely out of his life, it would never be brought up at all and it would remain where it belongs, in the past. But it is so hard to deal with when the contact can occur at any time due to work. Of course, along with the fact that we both know she wants more from him and that she is going to be waiting for her chance.

The infidility diet. Not that it is funny, but in a way it is. That is what also happened to me. In two months I lost 36 lbs. 36 lbs. that I hadn't lost since having the baby and needed to. A hard way to lose the weight but I did it and he did take notice. I've also started going to the gym again and he is now going to start going with me on Tuesday/Thursday nights and one day on the weekend. Just another thing that we will start doing together yet again. Another way to strengthen our bond. I stay in shape and keep the attractiveness going in his need to have an attractive wife and he goes to the gym to be with me and to build up his stamina (for walking/running), so that he doesn't feel as if he can't catch his breath anymore.

I don't harbor resentment for the things he did/say, although there are times when I look at him and think what in the h*** happened ... you are an a******! Or, I will think what is it exactly that I won? (He had made a comment to me early on that it is harder for her than it is for me because I had won.) I don't know where these thoughts come from and I feel extremelly guilty afterward for even thinking them.

My H knows that I have a journal and the reasons for it. He has never asked to read it, his only real comment when I told him about it was "nice" but it was more in a sarcastic tone than a good for you one. To him, he doesn't understand why I have the journal or why I write in it. It is over and writing in it to him means that I am not moving forward and I won't let it go. My g/f who went through this three years ago suggested that I start fresh in the journal every week, i.e., delete everything from before. That way I don't reread hurtful things that then stay with me. Sort of a way to let it go. I think she may be right.

But the "shared" journal gave him an opportunity to correct misunderstandings, and it gave him a window into my thought process. It was a way of communicating emotions....without the drama.

Because I was having trouble asking for my needs to be met, our counselor suggested that my husband come to ME and ask if I needed to talk periodically. I had become to feel like a complete harpie....and had pretty much clammed up. By making my husband integral in the communications process, it put some control back in his hands. He didn't feel like he was 'on the witness stand' all the time anymore.

A shared journal to correct misunderstandings and a window into my thought process? That sounds like it could be a great tool and it wouldn't need all the drama, or require me to feel like I am digging around for any clue as to whether he talked to her at all. I think if we did this, it would help me tremendously as then when a thought enters my head I can choose to write it down and get it out of my head. Then it won't manifest itself into this huge monster that is only in my head. I can see where it will help these thoughts get less and less with time as well.

How can I go about gently bringing this subject up and get him to agree to reading it and responding to it? However, could this be misconstrued by him as a means of rubbing his face into what happened? Could he look at this idea and think, see, I told you that you would never let it go? I wouldn't use it to bring up what happened, I can see myself using it for clarifying something he said that I may be throwing around in my head thinking of all the negative things he could have meant. But then again, I would think that I would have to caution myself about asking if he talked to her and what they talked about as that is a thought that is in my head daily.

I guess that is the leap of faith you are talking about isn't it? Faith that he is honoring his promise to me not to call her except for work related issues, and not to talk to her about anything personal. He hasn't done anything to break that promise to me although I know that she tries every so often to get into personal stuff. He changes the subject immediately when she tries to go there, which he is very proud of. I know that he wants kudo's from me in doing that and I do tell him that I appreciate it, but at the same time, I don't go overboard in saying thank you, etc. because I feel that it is something that should be automatic in a relationship anyway. I guess I am still trying to build that time-line that will never be filled in. That last piece of the puzzle that I will never find.

After a lot of thinking about what everyone has said along with their suggestions, I realize that I do say/react to things that make my H defensive. These are the things that I need to stop doing. That self-preservation mode that you go into is very hard to leave. Yet, I do understand that to go forward and leave all this in the past, I need to take that leap of faith and trust that he will continue to tell me the truth and continue to work on us. He has given me no reason to doubt him, he has never lied to me straight out, only by omission when he was crossing the line with OW during the month of July when he was talking to her everyday and building up the EA. As soon as he decided that he wanted more out of it (a PA) is when he came to me and said he wanted out. And, even though he said he wanted out, his actions were much different and in the end he never left. So, I guess it would be safe to assume that for him, this is definitely over and that I need to not question him, or try to delve deep into his thoughts, etc.

Sometimes I wonder if he is the man that I always thought he was. On one hand, I never thought he would do something like this (and neither did he) and since he did I wonder if I really knew him at all. On the other hand, he didn't really do anything ... I mean, he did, but what he did is work through his confusion and realize that he does want me/us, and so then I think that he is the man I always thought he was because of that. But, I go back and forth and wonder if I'll ever really know the answer to that.

I know what I am looking for is unavailable ... a concrete answer to whether he'll ever hurt me again. No one will have that answer because none of us know what the future will bring. We can only trust that we will make it and that all will work out as it should.

Back to the journal ... do you think it is a good idea and that he won't think I'm using it to bring up problems/past? And, if you think it is a good idea, anyone have any suggestions on how to bring it up to someone who will look at it as a bad idea to begin with?

Ahh, one positive note (I think) ... last week I threw away the book I had purchased in October "His Needs/Her Needs" because he only read chapter 1 and stopped there. I figured he wasn't going to read it, so there was no use in keeping it and honestly, I was mad that he choose not to read it when he said he would with an open mind and we just had had that horrible argument because he had told me that she called him the week before just to see how things were going. So, I threw it in the bathroom trash. I say bathroom trash because that is where he always seems to be and I know that he would notice it. Well, he took it out of the trash. I asked him last night why he took it out of the trash. He said because to him, my throwing it away represented that I was throwing US away and he wasn't going to let that happen. I responded that I threw it away because he wasn't reading it, so why keep it around. He said that just because he hasn't read it doesn't mean that he won't. It may not be now, or in a month, but at some point in time I will read it. So, I take that as a good sign, just wish that he would read it so that he and I can communicate on what our individual ENs are to ensure that we are both meeting them in the future. I guess that will be the deciding factor in maintaining our happiness, each of us ensuring that we are giving the other person what they need. With that, then there should be no worry of him every going to someone else to fill it ... correct?

December 28, 2005

Sometimes I wonder if he is the man that I always thought he was. On one hand, I never thought he would do something like this (and neither did he) and since he did I wonder if I really knew him at all. On the other hand, he didn't really do anything ... I mean, he did, but what he did is work through his confusion and realize that he does want me/us, and so then I think that he is the man I always thought he was because of that. But, I go back and forth and wonder if I'll ever really know the answer to that.

I can identify with every last bit of that paragraph. I would have sworn on my own life that my husband would NEVER cheat on me. And then he did. It felt like he was a complete stranger to me.

But like yours, my husband didn't 'go all the way'. So, even though I was emotionally devastated....he didn't REALLY think he did anything that bad. I suppose in some ways it was a 'leap of faith' for him as well, to recognize my feelings and prioritize them as real.

A shared journal to correct misunderstandings and a window into my thought process? That sounds like it could be a great tool and it wouldn't need all the drama, or require me to feel like I am digging around for any clue as to whether he talked to her at all. I think if we did this, it would help me tremendously as then when a thought enters my head I can choose to write it down and get it out of my head. Then it won't manifest itself into this huge monster that is only in my head. I can see where it will help these thoughts get less and less with time as well.

How can I go about gently bringing this subject up and get him to agree to reading it and responding to it?

This is what I was talking about when I told you to identify your ENs as well as your husbands. You're feeling insecure. He caused it. So, now, he needs to address it.

He doesn't have a crystal ball, so you'll have to tell him about your feelings. That doesn't have to be a big, threatening conversation. It can be as simple as, "I'm still feeling really insecure, and I need your support."

"I need to talk about some things with you, and I'm not sure how to go about it. My foundation has been shaken and I need to find a way to rebuild it. But I don't want to make you feel bad by reminding you constantly. I don't want you to feel like I'm 'rubbing your nose in it' and harping at you.

I thought it might be easier for both of us if we write out our discussion in this journal. That way we can talk about whatever new thoughts and ideas occur to us. It'll give us a chance to slow the communications process down and really concentrate on our responses to one another. It'll also give us a window into each other's thought process so that we can correct whatever misunderstanding might be at hand.

If you don't want to do it, that's okay...but here's where I'm going to keep it so you can read it whenever you want to."

I know how hard it is to ASK for the things that you need. You probably feel like 'rocking the boat' is going to endanger your new-found peace. But bear in mind that you aren't making demands here. You're just asking for help.

This is an area where you can compartmentalize the emotional issues. The issue of 'forgiveness' is separate altogether from the issue of 'security'. You've already forgiven him. That's been handled. But your feelings of insecurity haven't been addressed yet. You still need emotional reassurance. Present it to him as a separate issue.

(Sweeping generalization to follow. Forgive me guys.... )

Men sometimes have a bit of difficulty in this area. Emotions can be troublesome for them to classify, and oftentimes their first response to unpleasant stimulus is anger. Because it's that way for them, they assume it's that way for us too. He needs reassurance that you're not angry. Most men get REALLY upset when they feel like they've let their wives down. An emotional response of anger might be representative of him feeling anxious or guilty about disappointing his wife or family. So, it's entirely possible that sometimes he's really mad at himself more than he is at you.

Whatever... You still can't avoid conflict on issues that are important to you. So, ASK for what you need.

Regarding the book... Tell him it's important to you. "I really appreciate it that you're planning to read this book. It helps me alot to know that you're willing to prioritize our marriage." Then make some time for reading together before you go to bed at night. It doesn't matter if you read it aloud together, or if you read something else entirely while he reads about ENs. It'll still be a positive experience if you make some quiet time for being together.

And don't be too disappointed if he never writes in the journal or if he never reads the book. Every person has to go about problem-solving in the best way for them.

The idea here is to make sure that you're speaking up and asking to have your needs met. He might have his own ideas on how he'll get that done. It's entirely possible that he'll choose a different method, but still get the same end result. The bottom line is that you make it known to him that you still need reassurance, and that he finds a way to give it to you.

December 28, 2005

StS,

I might have missed it in your post, but have you talked to her?

December 28, 2005

You make so much sense! And, while I'm glad you know exactly where I'm coming from, I'm sorry that you had to go through with these emotions as well.

Men sometimes have a bit of difficulty in this area. Emotions can be troublesome for them to classify, and oftentimes their first response to unpleasant stimulus is anger. Because it's that way for them, they assume it's that way for us too. He needs reassurance that you're not angry. Most men get REALLY upset when they feel like they've let their wives down. An emotional response of anger might be representative of him feeling anxious or guilty about disappointing his wife or family. So, it's entirely possible that sometimes he's really mad at himself more than he is at you.

That is my h to a "T." I know the anger that he feels is directed more at himself even though it comes out at me. He is, I think, probably more disappointed in himself than I am in him. I get this from comments that he has made that if a dead relative were looking down at him, how embarrassed he would be; I deserve a better husband, etc.

I have tried going the route that you suggest where I let him know that I am still insecure and I need his help; however, it backfired on me. Because of my insecurity. My insecurity makes him realize how much he hurt me. It is like he can't deal with my insecurity because it is too much of a reminder to him. As long as he feels that I am secure (and that would be with me not bringing her up at all, asking about her calling, what she wanted, etc.), then he is happy as a jay-bird. I don't know if it is because he feels that me being secure means that we will be good, of if it is that he is so disappointed in himself that any mention of it brings about his depression.

I have let him know that when I have a question, or a thought that I want to talk about with him, it is not my way of harping on him, or rubbing his nose in it. I let him know that is not something I would do. I have let him know that I have forgiven him and reminded him that I do not even talk about it/her in that regard. (The month that all this happened and him going back and forth on what he wanted.) I've told him that what I'm looking for is his reassurance that we will be o.k., that we will be good/great. I've mentioned that I need his reassurance, that if he were to just give it, instead of getting upset, we wouldn't even have any arguments/disagreements/misunderstanding anymore. However, even after telling him all this numerous times, he still gets really upset.

Maybe it is because he is so down on himself for even considering a PA, or leaving me? As much as he can't stand cigarettes (if you've read through the whole thread there is something in there relating to the fact he can't stand cigarette smoke ... and she smoked!), or liars, he can't stand people who have affairs/leave their spouses for someone else. On that point, he does separate me and him considering that I left my ex for him; however, that was a very abusive relationship and I left ex 2 weeks after meeting current H. I didn't stay in the relationship with ex and have an active affair with current H, but his support is what helped me make the decision to leave the relationship. Now, going back to him being down on himself. Can he hate himself so much because of this that it prevents us from being able to talk about it at all? I question this just because of his comments relating to how he feels about himself and more specifically, his comment to me the other night that he prays to God to just let him leave because I deserve better.

I really don't know how to deal with it with him since I have tried to suggest things to him like you said. I do like your idea of saying I am going to keep a journal and here is where I will keep it in case you are ever interested in reading it. And, I do appreciate you LadyJane, telling me not to be upset about it if he never does read it, add to it, or read the book. You are right, everyone addresses problems differently and maybe his way (which history would prove me right) is to just ignore it. The only problem there would be how do I then deal with my need for his spoken reassurances? While his actions give me reassurance, the thoughts in my head sometimes are a lot louder than his actions. Those thoughts are what seems to get the better of me and I feel that his words would calm them.

December 28, 2005

My Other I -

I'm not sure if I understood your question ... talk to the OW? If that is your question, yes I have. The first week I found out I showed up at her work, called and asked her to lunch. She was very surprised I was there, heck, I was surprised with myself that I had the balls to do that as I'm normally not a confrontational person. But, I was fighting for my marriage.

What did I find out about her? That she is really the type of person that will always be there in the corner waiting to pounce just as she told my H that she would be doing. In the course of our conversation I realized that she had been pursuing my H for two years. Not blantantly pursuing him, but in her own way. Flirting, inappropriate comments, etc.

At the end of our conversation she said that everything would be o.k., it would all work out and that I shouldn't worry. But, she was going to do it in her own way to make sure that my H didn't think I talked her into anything. Of course, she hasn't left him alone and is still there lurking, just like she told him she would be.

There were other bits of the conversation that she turned around when she talked with my H immediately after our little lunch; however, I wasn't going to argue the point with my H because I knew at that point in time I would have lost. From what she told me, and then what she told my H, I realized she is very coniving and wouldn't stop at anything to get her way.

I haven't talked to her since then and don't really want to now. Why won't I talk to her now? Because my H is honoring his promise to me not to talk to her except for business and they don't ever talk about personal stuff. Do I know that as a fact with living proof? No, I don't. But his actions prove to me that he is honoring it. I can't go to her now for three reasons:

1) it will show my H that I don't believe anything he says, or his actions. The result I fear, would be that he would think to himself, why should I even try, nothing I do is good enough.

2) That will give her too much of a window into my marriage and my relationship with my H that my H didn't give her while this was going on, or is giving her now. I don't think she should feel that much importance is placed on her.

and,

3) I feel that the issue is now soley between my H and myself. WHile I am consumed with thoughts of her and as LJ brought to my attention, thoughts of their conversations, if my security is there and I get the reassurances from my H that I need, then we can get through this.

I hope that answers your question/train of thought you were going with?

December 28, 2005

That's exactly what I was wondering. Sorry for missing it in your post.

Good luck, seems like that lady won't let go

December 29, 2005

The only problem there would be how do I then deal with my need for his spoken reassurances? While his actions give me reassurance, the thoughts in my head sometimes are a lot louder than his actions. Those thoughts are what seems to get the better of me and I feel that his words would calm them.

You need his words, but he's only giving you actions. I think that there are two things that might help.

The first is to pay strict attention to the actions that he's already doing. These are like little gifts. The value of them is in your notice of them. So, notice them. When he's committing actions that are designed to reassure you, try to recognize them as little reminders that he's 'putting his money where his mouth is'.

This leads to the second thought that I have for you. Have you read The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman?

It's a much less daunting read than His Needs / Her Needs, so you might be able to elicit your husband's interest a little easier. It's fairly concise and encompasses an overall plan for improving the marital relationship. The premise is that people don't necessarily speak the right "love language" to their partner. They tend to speak the language that they most readily identify with themselves.

For example, you might be a person who feels more loved and validated when you hear Words of Affirmation. Now, if his '"love language" is Acts of Service, then he might be trying to prove his love for you in HIS language rather than yours. So he's washing your car and scrubbing the kitchen in order to make you happy.

But you've failed to recognize his efforts because what makes YOU feel better is hearing lots of compliments about how great you are.

I don't think any single book or program has ALL the answers. You have to tailor all these different concepts to your own lifestyle and experience. But Chapman's book is not a bad place to start because most people can grasp it handily enough.

December 29, 2005

I'll make sure to get the book this weekend, read it, and, of course, leave it in the most obvious place for my H to find ... the bathroom. http://www.loveshack.org/forums/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Looking at his actions as little gifts I think is a great way to look at them. I see them now, but don't really realize what they are. I can also see how his language of actions played a big part in our problems that led to EA ... I wasn't the wife/best friend he needed b/c I was caught up in the baby. It was that I wasn't doing the actions that he feels is necessary b/c to him, that is his language. I was telling him all the same things as I always have, but I wasn't doing the little actions anymore. I wasn't getting up with him in the a.m. making his lunch everyday, I started staying in bed because I had gotten up during the night with the baby. Him asking me to make a call for him, or pick up something for him would take sometimes two weeks of him reminding me, b/c I would just put it on the back-burner. I got used to bringing dinner home instead of cooking it because it was easier for me; but he likes dinners made at home. He made so many comments that I didn't recognize relative to these things until now. I need actual words and I give actual words. He needs actual actions and he gives actual action .... Interesting bit of knowledge there, thank you.

I'll let you know how the weekend goes with my idea that I'm now going to just ignore everything about her and how I felt the book was, and, of course, his reaction.

Thank you so much for your support!!!! I know you know what I mean when I say that it means everything to me.

My Other I - no problem .... it is a long post and I'm sure for anyone who does read the whole thing and b/c I'm sure a lot of it is the same thing that other people have already posted, that skipping down through the posts is easy to do ... I've done that over the past few months of checking this site out myself. No, it doesn't seem as if OW will let go, so I guess for my peace of mind, I am going to have to ignore her like a ...... pesky fly that won't go away. The more you swat at it the more it stays by you ... when you ignore it, it either goes away, or dies. Hmm... that just came to my, but I think it is so right and ... what I am going to try to do. Thanks for the wishes of good luck!

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EA - How to handle OW's continued fishing calls/comments to my H

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