EA - How to handle OW's continued fishing calls/comments to my H

December 21, 2005

I apologize for how long this is, but I would love to hear suggestions of how to handle this situation, or if anyone has been there/done that and where they are now. I’ve read several threads throughout this site over the past four months and it seems as if some real encouraging help has been dispensed....

August 05 during vacation I found out my husband had gone to dinner with a girl he used to work with ... who was fired from his company and began working for a supply company that he has to order from. Initially, they had lunch which I knew about but thought that it was just fine because she was trying to get/keep their business, so I thought it was a business lunch. When my H told me he paid because he wasn’t going to have her pay I was a bit thrown back, but still did not think anything. What I have gathered is that during the course of this lunch, one of them suggested that since I was out of town that they go to dinner. The next day, she called him at work and asked if he was serious about going to dinner and they went to dinner that night. He picked her up from her house and met her son. Then at the end of the night when he dropped her off at her house she just got out of the truck. The next day he called her and asked her if she had wanted more, she said yes. He said he did too. The next morning he left to join me on vacation.

Some history here. Two years ago we had our first child (I have two older ones from a previous marriage). At the same time, we found out my husband has a degenerative autoimmune disease. The baby was very high maintenance and my H was taking pills that would basically knock him out at night, very early in the night (6:00 - 6:30 p.m.). Throughout the two years he was on a variety of medications for anything and everything to include depression. Side effects of some of them were to say the least, pretty bad for him. Heavy muscle relaxers really don’t help your sex life, so I don’t think I need to say anymore there. Some of the side effects of one actually increased his depression and he was having suicidal thoughts. Through all this I did not have his support in raising our baby, and because I was doing everything for the baby and he was always in bed within ½ hour after I got home at night, he didn’t have the support he felt he needed from me. Although I never said anything bad and I always told him I loved him and showed it with affection, my actions, etc., he was completely unhappy with anything and everything I did. I really believe it was because he was unhappy with himself and his health, which he had yet to accept ... and still has trouble dealing with today. So, when he was working with this girl, she always flirted with him and made him feel good. Of course, she knew he was married, but figured that he was unhappy in his marriage because he was always unhappy. So, of course, it had to be because of his marriage. So, she kept on calling him because she promised him, and had him promise her that they would always be friends, no matter what.

Skip forward to July 05. He started calling her at her work everyday to talk to her. She made him laugh and made him feel good about himself. He never told her anything personal about himself, me, or us. As a matter of fact, he never told her he was sick, or has chronic depression and has thoughts of suicide since he was 12 and the depression and thoughts were only made worse by his disease and the medications. He never told her about his gun collection, or that he has certain licenses to carry, or that he enjoys motorcycle riding, four-wheeling, camping. He was very tight about any information on him. Information that he shared was general things like daily activities, what our kids were during, her kids, etc. Since she had worked for his company they were able to talk about the same people. Since she knew his line of work he was able to talk to her about those things that he would have to explain to me. She did most of the talking and personal information. They had a middle school in common and she knew some of the people he knew from school, he thought that was pretty cool at the time. She had a son at 19, married a different guy when she was 24, had a daughter with him, and then he left her for another woman when her daughter was two. NOTE here: She told my H that she was divorced and has been alone for eight years, but public records show that she stayed married to her H for six more years before she divorced him. She told my H that all the good men are married, or gay. When he had called her and asked her if she wanted more, she told him that it bothers her that he is married, but she cared enough for him to overlook it. Nice of her, huh?

Needless to say, we came back early from our vacation. Back and forth over a two week period if he was going to stay with me or move in with her ... yes, she invited him to live with her because she didn’t want him to have to stay in a motel or anything like that when he was trying to decide what he was going to do/what he wanted. Of course, she had told him that he couldn’t stay with me because I would only try to influence him to stay and I would say and do this and that and she just wanted to prepare him for what I would do, so that he could fight it/me.

End result of it all is that we have worked through it all and we are together. He never slept with her, which I honestly believe if he had I wouldn’t have worked it out with him. But, because that didn’t happen, thankfully I didn’t have to test my feelings there. However, he did kiss her. The night we got back from vacation he had to go talk to her in person to let her know that we were going to work things out. What he told her was that he wanted to be with her, but because of our son really needed to work it out with me. He then kissed her. I have a huge issue with that, but I can’t change it, it happened. The next two week were up and down with him going back and forth in his decision. One day I told him I was done, I didn’t want this and that was it, I was done. Then he decided that he wanted to work it out with me, etc., etc. All the things that everyone here has gone through, all the fights, the words, the emotions, we both went through. I went to her work and met with her. He made the choice to be with me. Of course, she tried all the usual things, trying to make him feel guilty, playing the I need help trick, the I’m sick trick, the I’m going out to bars to try to make him feel guilty trick. All of that she has tried.

Funny thing is that she is nothing that he would have ever even brought home to Mom and Dad. She, with him telling me this when he first meet her via work, and even to this day, although he says he wouldn’t never say that to her, it would be too mean, looks rode hard and put away wet. She definitely spent too much time in the sun and looks about 10 years older than she really is. She smokes, when he is adamant against ... yet she would have stopped for him which is what she told him. She has an earring in her nose, which he doesn’t like, and little did she know, but he said that would have came out. He was already thinking of ways to change who she was because she was nothing that he liked, except for the talking and making him feel good part.

Anyway - skip to where I need some good advice .... Now he admits he f***** up, he doesn’t understand how he did it, how he said some of the things he said, he was a complete a**hole and all the other things. All he wants is us, if I didn’t work it out with him and forgive him, he still wouldn’t have wanted anything to do with her, he was crazy, he doesn’t know what he was thinking, etc., etc. I understand that we will never be able to make any kind of sense out of it because you just can’t make sense out of these kinds of things. But here is what is going on now:

He never calls her except for when he has to for work. Each time she always asks him to call her on another day to just talk, he always tells her he isn’t going to. At first he used the excuse that she’ll get fired, then he just started saying o.k., but then wouldn’t call her. She would follow-up with him a week later and ask why, he would respond with because I’ve been busy. She tries to make the conversations longer than necessary by trying to get personal each time. He keeps it short and does not go into what he believes is personal stuff ... he tries to stay with general information. She still calls him from time to time to see “how everything is” which she is just fishing for information on us. That is the problem. She is using the fact that she has to call him for work ... she is his supplier, so she does have to call from time to time to find out if he needs anything, etc. I work also, and know that this is a fact and something that can’t be changed. And, no, him working for a different company is not an option, nor is him ordering from a different company. However, when she calls to see how everything is, she is really asking him how he is doing for her. While he says that she never gets the answer she wants and never will, it still bothers the piss out of me. He says when I make a big deal out of it I act as if they are talking everyday and talking forever and that they have this huge secret going on. He lets me know when she calls and what they talk about, so it isn’t a secret. He will not tell her point blank as I have asked him to that he will not call her except for work and all the stuff that needs to go with that. He feels that she did nothing wrong and doesn’t deserve to be treated like crap just because he was the one who brought her into us. Some personal traits about my H: he would never have approached her if she hadn’t made sure he knew in no uncertain terms that the door was open; although he says what he wants when he wants and doesn’t bow to anyone ... he avoids any type of confrontation when it is uncomfortable for him, i.e., a friend who has several problems that we’ve helped him out of, he avoids his calls, when he was mad at his mother for something, he avoided her calls for one year. He will avoid personal confrontation when it involves feelings at all costs, additionally, since he feels he is the one that crossed the line (which I don’t disagree with) he feels that she didn’t do anything, she was just being his friend and letting him know that she would do anything for him and there was nothing wrong with that.

So, how do I handle these calls from her? No, they are not every week. Sometimes it can be three weeks before he has to call her for supplies, or she calls him to check on everything. I would dearly love to rub her face in crap believe me. I have thought of all kinds of wicked things I could do, but believe in Karma, so am afraid to do anything. Besides, that isn’t the type of person I am. So, since everything is going great with my h and I, better now as the communication that we both lacked with each during those two years is back, (how we both got to where he couldn’t tell me how he was feeling emotionally and I couldn’t tell him I needed more help from him I don’t know), but how do I handle this calls that just get under my skin because I know she is just trying to stay in the background, waiting for her chance to pounce? Because I am at work, I will view the posts/replies frequently. I have never posted on a board before either, but really would love to here some replies and get some support on how to deal with this. Thank you to all.

December 21, 2005

Forgive me for posting on the OW/OM thread instead of the Infidility thread ... this is the first time I have ever posted on anything. However, if there are any OW out there reading this where you are the predator type OW, not the ones that are lied to by a cheating husband who always says he is going to leave and never does, but actual go after until you decide to stop, or until you get what you want other woman, or even the OW who is staying around to be a friend just in case it doesn't work out, I would love to hear your opinions on how to deal with it and what I could do that would be successful. Thanks.

December 21, 2005

He will not tell her point blank as I have asked him to that he will not call her except for work and all the stuff that needs to go with that. He feels that she did nothing wrong and doesn’t deserve to be treated like crap just because he was the one who brought her into us.

Something he needs to accept is that he cheated and he has to do everything in his power to regain your trust and treat you how you want to be treated. That means disregarding the OW feelings if necessary. That doesn't mean treating her badly. He can still be civil to her, but he does need to set up definite boundaries. If it's clear that she's fishing for personal info and that makes you uncomfortable, then he should suck it up, be a man, and tell her that they have to keep it all professional. Otherwise, he's not doing everything he can to repair your marriage.

since he feels he is the one that crossed the line (which I don’t disagree with) he feels that she didn’t do anything, she was just being his friend and letting him know that she would do anything for him and there was nothing wrong with that.

If her motives were completely altruistic, she would have respected his decision to reconcile with you and she wouldn't still be trying to work her way into his life. I doubt you'll be able to convince him of that though, and doing so will only make you out to be the "bad guy" and set him up to defend her. When you talk to him about it, don't insult her or talk negatively about her. It'll just make you look bad.

Maybe it'd help if you looked at it from her point of view (as he presented it). So assuming she is innocent in all this and it's all his fault, then he's being pretty unfair to her by letting her hold onto hope that he's still interested. Telling her firmly that their relationship is limited to strictly business would help free her to move on with her life and be happy.

So by not firmly establishing boundaries with her, he's being unfair to both of you. He's leading her on and causing you to feel hurt and insecure that he's not dedicated to your reconciliation.

December 21, 2005

your husband may be reacting to the fact that you obviously really blame the ow for this. if he says she didnt do anything wrong, then she probably didnt.

sometimes things just happen as a result of everybodys bad luck, his, hers, yours.....his needs, her needs, just coincided. at the end of the day he loves you and chose you, but of course you will not feel comfortable with this situation, what can he do though. if he has to speak to her anyway, then it is not an option to bar all contact. if he is the avoidant type then you going on at him (justifiably) to tell her strictly business might make him stop telling you anything at all. it is a difficult one.

in honesty, do you fear that he has feelings for her and that an a is likely to recur? or is it the fact that she has the nerve to be friendly with him that bothers you?

December 21, 2005

Thank you for replying! I'm stressed out and your advise is badly needed.

Something he needs to accept is that he cheated and he has to do everything in his power to regain your trust and treat you how you want to be treated. That means disregarding the OW feelings if necessary. That doesn't mean treating her badly. He can still be civil to her, but he does need to set up definite boundaries. If it's clear that she's fishing for personal info and that makes you uncomfortable, then he should suck it up, be a man, and tell her that they have to keep it all professional. Otherwise, he's not doing everything he can to repair your marriage.

He has a problem with admitting that he 'cheated' because to him he didn't have sex with her, so therefore, the only wrong he committed was that he kissed her. His words to me about still having conversations with her were to the point of yours that he is still going to be civil to her. The way she is "fishing" for the personal information is by the way she asks him, so, how is everything going for you. We both know that she is asking for herself, not for the company. Sometimes when she calls him she will joke with him when he answers by asking, what, are you mad at me ... you haven't called me. He always responds with I've been busy. I agree that he should suck it up, but he won't in this regard. That isn't to say that he isn't doing everything else that he can to repair our marriage because he is. The only sticky point is my unacceptance of any type of personal communication between them, and his viewpoint that it isn't personal like I think and he doesn't think of her like I think he does. I'm in sales, I completely understand the need to maintain some type of personal contact with your clients, but it is accepting it that is another thing altogether. So, while she isn't being overly agressive anymore on this issue, she is still there, waiting in the corner to pounce ... just like she told him five months ago she would be doing. In this way of her phone calls, she is letting him know in her own way that the door is still open.

If her motives were completely altruistic, she would have respected his decision to reconcile with you and she wouldn't still be trying to work her way into his life. I doubt you'll be able to convince him of that though, and doing so will only make you out to be the "bad guy" and set him up to defend her. When you talk to him about it, don't insult her or talk negatively about her. It'll just make you look bad.

In six months I haven't said one bad thing about her until last night. Last night I just let lose with information I had found out about her that I know he didn't know. I have kept this information to myself for so long, and when he responded to me that she has done nothing to me, or to us, it was all him, I kind of got tired of him taking all the blame and not giving any, even a little, to her. (A co-worker's best friend is the OW neighbor ... small world, huh!) She has had affairs with other married men before which H knew, but she told him they lied to her and she never knew they were married. She slept with another co-worker while she worked for my H company, and the next day, conveniently found out he was engaged and immediately called the fiance' to tell her what a slime bag the guy way. One note here that may/may not be important in all this ... the co-worker she slept with has money. She thinks my H has money because his family has money (private planes/lake houses we use for vacation, etc. that she knows about because she worked with him). Other stuff I let out was where she had said specific things to him that any woman would know was a plane out lie. He let me have my say, but did defend her relative to the co-worker thing saying that she couldn't have known he was engaged, there was no way. So needless to say, I probably looked like the badguy last night which I had been trying to avoid all along. SOmetimes though emotions get the best of you.

Maybe it'd help if you looked at it from her point of view (as he presented it). So assuming she is innocent in all this and it's all his fault, then he's being pretty unfair to her by letting her hold onto hope that he's still interested. Telling her firmly that their relationship is limited to strictly business would help free her to move on with her life and be happy.

So by not firmly establishing boundaries with her, he's being unfair to both of you. He's leading her on and causing you to feel hurt and insecure that he's not dedicated to your reconciliation.

I have actually and this gets my goat and he and I have discussed this. He told her that he had to stay with me because of 1) our son and 2) he needed to know that he gave it all, otherwise he would always wonder. I've told him that he isn't being fair to her at all because she thinks that he wants to be with her, but has to be with me. Logically, I would think that any OW would hear this and think, yeah right, but know that she had/had deep feelings for my H. He doesn't return those feelings. He said he never loved her, he never even felt that close to being in love with her. Does it matter what that she thinks he is with me only because of our son and doesn't know that he isn't with her because he wouldn't ever be with her in the big picture? No, it doesn't, but to my ego it does. Where ego has a place in marriage I don't know, but it does for ones self-worth. When I told him he is being unfair to her, his reponse is that she won't wait forever, she will eventually move on.

Relative to boundaries, he says he knows what his boundaries are not only with her, but any other person. He says it will never go that route again, he never wants to be in that place again. The trouble comes in that he has never been clear in the boundaries to her. In September she would make quite a few comments, she would ask him every week what he was doing during the weekend, when he would respond that he and I were doing X, she would respond with oh. When he would get supplies from her she would tell him how hard it was for her to see him and not be able to do anything about her feelings. He would respond with he could make it so she doesn't see him ever again - she, of course, responded that she would rather see him still than not being able to see him at all. So, it is with him refusing to voice the truth to her that 1) is bothersome to me, 2) unfair to her and 3) the problem. To pursue it with him will only cause heartache for both of us, so I'm left with where he is at that eventually she will get the message and stop. But six months later, I don't see that happening.

December 21, 2005

One thing I didn't say ... I asked him why he feels it is so important to keep at least part of a promise he made to someone that isn't important to us (his promise to her that they will always be friends no matter what - which is why he says that the one thing he can at least do is to not be an a****** to her - to him, that is not telling her what he really thinks/feels because that would hurt her feelings). Remember that he has had problems with depression and suicidal thoughts since he was 12. Well, he feels that in July his only way out was to commit suicide (out of his unhappiness from his health) ... until she let him know that she was there for him. So, he feels that because she helped him through that point, then he owes it to her to still be somewhat of a friend to her.

December 21, 2005

in honesty, do you fear that he has feelings for her and that an a is likely to recur? or is it the fact that she has the nerve to be friendly with him that bothers you?

Honestly, that she has the nerve to be friendly with him. I know that an affair won't happen be it physical or emotional again. But he kissed her and she wanted him to move in with her and everything else ... I completely understand the need to communicate with her because there isn't an option for something else ... but, I would prefer it if she kept it strictly professional with absolutely no personal information.

Is trust an issue? Yes, my trust was badly shaken up, but I still know that he isn't going to have an A. I think that the issue of calls are a combination of my hurt ego, and worry that what if she calls one day that he and I are not getting along. He says "what if" nothing is going to happen. But the idea in my head that she thinks that something can happen is driving me crazy.

December 21, 2005

Wow. The more you said, the more it sounds like you're describing this guy I was seeing. The problem wasn't with an OW, but with his ex-gf who he said he didn't have feelings for but refused to "turn his back on". One of his reasons what that she took care of him when he got sick and passed out one day. My thoughts about that were along the lines of "So what. Most people I know would have done the same thing. She just happened to be the one who was there."

My main problem wasn't trusting him either, but the way that he told me she was acting, which seemed to imply that she thought could get him back if she wanted. To me, a real friend worthy of that kind of consideration would respect your H and the woman he's chosen (you) enough to back off. My guy's behavior toward his ex made no sense to me if I trusted everything he said just like your H's behavior toward his OW doesn't make sense.

But I guess if he's not willing to budge on the matter, then you'll either have to figure out how to get used to it or leave. Just don't harp on him about it or he's likely to get fed up with you (which I think you know).

Do you think that if he just didn't tell you about their conversations that it would help?

December 21, 2005

you said that he feels that she helped him from commiting suicide, that is quite a big thing.

i know it must be difficult, but i think he is probably correct in that she didnt do anything wrong.

on the other hand he is not realising the full effect that it had on you.

i know what you mean, it is very much an ego thing. you feel quite safe with him though and that he only wants you, it doesnt matter what she thinks because nothing is going to happen is it? at some point she will realise that nothing more is going to happen.

December 22, 2005

Crazy Girl - I know what you mean by most people would take care of you in a situation such as he was in. Although the OW had/has no idea that he feels this way as he never told her anything about what was going on with him emotionally or physically. And yes, what is getting to me is that I think that she thinks she can really have him if she really wanted to. That she thinks she is the one who let him go ... based on what she told my H when he told her he really had to work on us, she told him to tell me that here is my chance and I better not f*** it up, because she is going to be in the corner like a cat ready to pounce. It was his choice, not hers, yet her response is like she was letting him go. I really think that is what she thinks right now, maybe not, but it is what is in my mind.

I guess that is what I am trying to do, figure out how to get use to it that is. I know it isn't going to stop and that it isn't going to go anywhere for him. My only hope is that she will give up it is just that five months later she hasn't. I would really think that she would give up, that she would have given up at least by October. I thought she had because she went three weeks without calling H through November; however, she had to call right before Thanksgiving ... of course to wish him a happy Thanksgiving. So I try not to harp and am usually prtty good about that. And, I try to never ask ... although the most I've ever gone without asking if they have talked is about three/four weeks. Most times he tells me through conversation of things he did throughout the day like he had to order, he had to check on prices, that type of stuff. Then I know they talked. It is when I don't hear anything that I start to wonder.

He asked if it would be better if he just didn't tell me. I said it wouldn't be better because then he would be hiding it. He said he wouldn't be hiding it, just not talking about it. I felt that I would feel better if I knew and I still feel that way now. Maybe one day that will change?

Newby - I know it is a big thing and I really am thankful that she was there for him during a time when he felt I wasn't. But sometimes friends are only there for a specific reason, that reason is no longer there and that friend needs to go away. I know that that in itself doesn't sound grateful, but the results of that friendship getting out of hand takes away the gratefullness that I would normally feel.

It is difficult to think that she didn't do anything wrong. Only because I know him so well that he wouldn't have approached her about it, about lunch, about dinner, etc. unless she let him know for a fact that the door was open for him. He hasn't denied that either, even though he says she didn't do anything. I think it is his guilt and embarrassment that he did something that he never thought he would do and the hurt that he caused me bothers him extremely, because of that and the fact that he feels she helped him through an extremelly tough time for him that he feels she didn't do anything wrong.

And you are correct as well in that he doesn't realize how deeply he hurt me. As an example he brought up that what I feel now is nothing to what he felt 10 years ago. I'll explain: I was married when I met my current H (my Ex was extremelly abusive and in fact, ended up in jail for five years for attempted murder against his girlfriend immediately after me). I left my ex within two weeks of meeting current H; however, my parents and friends and family all felt that I should return to my ex ... six months into my relationshi with current H I told him I was thinking about going back to ex because of my guilt. We had only dated six months and he still had not even met my two boys at that time, or my family. Now, we have been married for eight years and together for 10. He doesn't feel that what he did even compares to what I did. Mind you, I didn't leave him or go back to my ex, it was only a weekend thought that didn't last any longer than that, but the damage to him was already done. I've tried to explain that is apples to oranges, but he thinks it is apples to apples.

I do feel safe with him and know that nothing will happen. I think it is more like what crazy girl said when she said that the OW (in her case the ex) felt that they could get them back at anytime. Very big ego thing isn't it? How do you deal with that? Just time?

I honestly believe that if she were to be really out of the picture, then we could move forward and I wouldn't give this a second thought (maybe in the back of my mind, but not knowingly). But because she is still there because of work then it is like some bad dream that won't end. You know, she has had four different jobs in three years and was fired that we know of from one of them. I wish that she would find another job that wasn't involved at all with what my H does.

And my thought everyday? When is she going to give up?

December 22, 2005

Hello StrivingtoSucceed.

Well, I can understand how the thought of her there waiting in the wings is really preying on your mind. I don't know how interested she still is in a possible R with your H, and it could be that she won't get tired of waiting because she isn't particularly pining away, just really likes him and is interested to see if things between you fall apart and he becomes available. What I'm trying to say is, that this could be a long-term thing whether she has a great passion for him (believes herself to be in love with him, or whatever) or is just quite interested in him still. She could (for the sake of argument) also just be innocently asking after him out of friendship (though you seem to think that's not the case) and her continued pestering could all be in your H's mind.

The fact is, what whichever is the case, there's nothing much you can do about her being around and feeling whatever it is she's feeling. And you can't bring an end to the phonecalls (so you say). So focusing on her, and the supposed threat (or not) that she poses to your M would seem to be pointless.

There are two ways you can approach this, both of which have been suggested in some of the great responses you've had on this thread. One is to ask your H not to keep bringing up the phonecalls. What matters in this is your peace of mind. I would have thought he could take that on board, rather than arguing that he 'needs' to disclose everything to you. The other option is to tell him that he needs to put you and your M first, over his continued 'kindness' and gratitude to this OW. As everyone has pointed out, his 'nice', non-confrontational attitude is actually hurting both you and the OW. It's totally unacceptable.

I really think you should focus on the person you're in a R with - your H - and who therefore (IF he wants the M to continue), owes you some respect and needs to put the M first above all other commitments he feels he has.

I've had an odd gut feeling about him telling you about this OW at all (I'm assuming he disclosed the fact he had this woman interested in him in the first place, I don't recall if you mentioned how you found out). I'm assuming that it was him who told you that she was threatening to 'always be waiting for him', etc. And now he's telling you every time she calls and asks how he is. I'm wondering if he's not just using her attention to keep you focussed on him and his needs..? Could it be that there's an element of that? Sorry if I'm way off the mark.

December 22, 2005

i too think that your real problems are with your h, and by focusing on the ow you are avoiding the real problems. so i know he has been depressed etc and i know that that is an awful thing to experience, but where is his understanding for you? too many people focus on the ow as the problem.

so he is comparing what you are going through to what he went through and saying it is not as bad. it doesnt even matter which was worse, because this is NOW and that was THEN. unless he was still being affected by what happened then, that it is of no importance in this situation.

the thing is that he has obviously not understood what you were dealing with at the time you met him. maybe you have not understood what he was dealing with at the time of meeting ow either, i dont know. the obvious thing is that there is little forgiveness going on, and alot of resentment building up. have you tried mc, because you really need to get to the bottom of all of these things. has he now recieved treatment for depression? how much is being done to deal with the CAUSE of the a, and the loss of understanding or feelings of support that you both have?

December 22, 2005

Sami D --

I assume the worst in this case, mainly because it is such an important thing obviously. You bring up a great point though that she may not get tired of waiting and will wait until something drastic happens in our relationship. I'm happy to say that I know, and my H knows that it won't. One good thing that has come out of all of this is we both realized that we took each other for granted and that marriage does take work, some times more than other times. We are both committed to making it work and see no reason for us to ever be in that place again. So, she can wait forever and it will never happen for her. But it is the thought there that she is waiting in the wings that preys on my mind all the time. Is it really that big of a deal? I mean, I know that there are guys and girls out there everyday that have some type of sight set on someone that isn't available and nothing ever comes of it. I guess when it involves the one you love and the line had already been crossed that the problem comes into play. Do I think that her asking him is out of friendship? Maybe, but I highly doubt it based upon comments that she has made that my H has passed on to me. More to the point, comments that my H never caught on to, but any other woman would have. I think her continued pestering is more in my mind than my H's ... to him it isn't a big deal at all. I know that is because it is over for him, so he doesn't understand why I just won't let it go, it isn't going anywhere. From my perspective though it started with the phone calls and I just want them to stop all together.

Let me clarify the phone calls a bit ... my H is in charge of ensuring all the supplies for his company are exactly what is needed and that he gets them at a good cost. The company requires at least three bids for each item. There are only three companies in our town that provide these specific supplies and one of those companies the owner refuses to do business with, so my H is left with only two competing companies. One thought to note here is this: during July/August and probably even September, he got great deals through her company; however, in October and November, he has complained to me how they are more expensive on some items that they should be cheaper on. He does complain about any vendor that does not call him to make sure that everything is o.k. and sometimes, even stop by just to see how things are going. He feels very strongly that is the way they keep his companies business. If a vendor does not call, or stop by every once in awhile, he tends to avoid during business with them as he feels they will not respond well if he has a problem. BTW - she is not the one that stops by ... it is the store manager that stops by, she is just the one that calls. So you see here that the phone calls are a necessary evil. What I am trying to do is learn how to deal with these calls knowing that in the whole picture of things, she is just waiting for that one opportunity. My focus on her is strong, I can't deny that, but I can't seem to get over it.

I have had great responses on this thread as well as the same topic that I posted on the infidility page. I posted on this page accidentally, but I am so glad that I did ... everyone's responses have been so great and it causes me to think through all this ideas that go through my mind each day. Thank you to everyone!

My H is the one who initally suggested that he not tell me about the calls at all. I'm the one that insisted that he tell me. It isn't that he tells me she called me today at 3:15 and we talked for four minutes. Generally how I find out about a call is when he talks about his day. During the course of that conversation he will tell me that he had to call X at X to get a price and then he called her and the were cheaper, or more expensive. Most times I just ignore it ... it is a course of business that can't be changed. Sometimes though, I ask what she said and that is when he tells me.

I do believe he is putting our M first and he would be the first to adamantly insist that he is doing everything for us. The one and only point in it all that causes problems is my need for her/him to not have any type of personal conversation. My point is obvious although at the same time I am a sane person and know that what I want is a moot point ... I want my h and my marriage, happiness and love, which I have it all, but my insecurity, which I never had before, wants more. I want him to tell her that he doesn't want anything to do with her except for work. His actions have shown it yes, but because in the very beginning of all this he told her it was because of our son, I want him to clarify it now with her verbally, for me and for her. He feels just as strongly that 1) it doesn't matter what she thinks and 2) that eventually she will give up. I can argue both those points but see no reason to do that as it only causes grieve. His number one point I can say then it doesn't matter if you tell her the truth, the number two point I can say it has been six months and she still hasn't given up. Maybe I don't point it out correctly?

One comment H made to me about three months ago (which I have done, at least as far as he knows ... what goes on in my mind on a daily basis is a different matter which I've tried to control, but haven't learned how to do so yet), is he said that if I put as much energy into our relationship as I seem to in what happened, then we would never have any problems. So he is on the same page as you and I'm sure, everyone else. Sometimes though, it is much harder to let go of the pain, which I'm sure everyone understands as well. I think we all are dealing with our own kind of pain and that is what this whole support thing is about.

Can you explain more about the odd gut feeling you have? I have had a thought that he did this TO get my attention and that part of this is continuing because it strokes HIS ego. Make sense? How I found out? Our relationship has always been very touchy/feely and love words spoken all the time. In July, all he did was pick fights with me and anything and everything that I did, or the kids did was wrong. He always said sorry and blamed his health. The last week of July I went on vacation and he was to join us for the 1st week of August. That is when they had lunch and dinner and decided that they each wanted more. When he arrived, he kissed me, but was very stand-offish. That night when we were alone (we were also with his parents) I asked him what was wrong, he told me he didn't know what he wants anymore. I asked him to explain, he said he didn't know, maybe if he just had two weeks, then everything would be just fine. I asked what he meant by two weeks, he said that maybe he would just take our camper and move it to his work location ... that he just needed some time away from me to think. The next day his Mom watched the boys and we went for a drive to talk. During the course of the conversation I asked if there was someone else, he said does it matter. I responded with what is her name. He said does it matter. I asked X. He didn't say anything, so I knew it was her. Where I thought it was her? Because of the lunch thing which he paid for and in July I remembered that he talked about her more often. So that is how I found out. We have never lied to one another. Keeping some feelings to ourselves obviously, but never lied. It was him telling me that she told him to tell me that she'll always be waiting. And it is him telling me that he knows she is asking for herself, not for work. And it is him telling me that while he doesn't want to be with her and never will, doesn't even think about her like that, that the thought is there for him that if he ever wants to talk to her about anything that she will be willing to be there for him. You may be right on the mark on this ... you think? If this is the case, then all my thoughts about OW really are unnecessary correct? Is there a way that I can figure it out if this is the case?

Newby - I've often times wondered myself where his understanding is for me not so much as now, because again, the only area of contention is the phone calls and when I have a problem with them, i.e., most times I don't say anything, other times I question. My wondering of his understanding comes from wondering why he doesn't understand that I was being a mother to his child during this time that he felt I wasn't being a wife to him. But, does that matter now? I don't know. I really don't think either of us focuses so much on the OW other than my need to know the details of calls and the thoughts that are in my head daily (has she called today? Did he have to call today? Will he tell me about it tonight? Or, the one great fear is that he won't tell me about it because something is up with them..... even thought I know it won't happen, that doesn't mean I don't fear it now. Now I know the pain, now I fear that pain.).

Relative to what happened ten years ago .. up to about three months ago, he still brought it up in discussions or disagreements. (And they say women never let things go.) We weren't married or even planning on living together. Yes, we were dating exclusively, but because I was still married to X, had not filed anything yet, and no one in my family had met him yet, to say the least my kids meeting him and them getting along. I always blew it off when he brought it up because I couldn't understand how he could have thought that it could have been different ... I was married with kids. Of course, I always said I was sorry I hurt him, but would always explain it because I felt at that time that it was the correct thing to do, until I realized that I would be losing the best thing that has ever happened to me, which was him. Three months ago I realized that for him, he needed to forgive me, so I asked him to forgive me. He did and doesn't bring it up anymore. Except for the other night when he told me that what I am feeling, while he knows that I hurt, doesn't even compare to what he felt then. I wonder where his understanding is for me here ... we've been together for ten years, we have a child, we are married ... how can this not hurt worse then him possibly losing a 'girlfriend'? Just my opinion though and not really something that I would argue about with him. It wouldn't be worth it.

Have I forgiven him? Yes. It wasn't easy to do, but I love him and know deep down that this will never happen again. Have I forgot? No. I don't bring up what happened then with him at all and really, it doesn't bother me as much as I thought it would. The kiss ... that is probably the most upsetting to me. I know that he didn't really share personal things of himself, so don't worry that he shared part of himself with her that he didn't share with me. What is it that still bothers me then? The fact of the calls. Where, there may be no need for me to be bothered by it if in fact he is doing it to get/keep my attention. He's got it. It isn't going anywhere, I'm sorry that it took this to get my attention. Although, I did tell him that if he would have sat me down and told me that he was having a problem and that to him, we weren't working, it wouldn't have taken that to make me be the wife that he needed.

Counseling. Funny thing counseling. At first he said that he would only go to make me feel better, but that it wouldn't change the fact that he was going to leave. Then he changed it to I said that counseling wouldn't work (which I did because if he wasn't going to go for us, then I didn't think it would work). What it boiled down to was that he knew he was wrong and felt that the only thing counseling would do would be to point fingers at him. Unfortunately, although most people are this way, he doesn't take it very well when someone points out things he does wrong, and doesn't listen very well when someone tells him he must do X. He usually does the opposite just to prove that he is his own person and no one can tell him what to do. Hence, my reason very early on for never telling him that he can't ever talk to her, or see her, etc. What I had told him was that it was unacceptable to me, but it would be his choice in what he does. Right now, he feels that everything is perfect. (Except when I ask questions about her calls ... and it isn't really that I ask questions because he answers them without a problem because to him it isn't going anywhere and there is nothing there to hide ... I think it is because of my reaction ... I get very uptight and tense and my mood changes considerably. I try not to, and most times can control it, but there are times that I just want to lose it and it is very apparant in how I hold myself.) MC to him would be saying that he is wrong ... I've also read in How to Break Free from the Affair where counseling in this situation could make things worse. I also purchased the book His Needs/Her Needs and he said that he would read it with an open mind. I finished it, he quit at Chapter 2 ... the "love bank" idea seemed crazy to him. It has sat there for about two months now. This past Tuesday, after we had argued Monday night about her since she had called him last week just to see how he was and I responded very negatively about it, I just threw it in the trash (bathroom trash can ... it was very obvious I threw it away if he bothered to look). The next day it was back on the shelf where it has been sitting. Don't think he has read anymore of it because the book marker is still in the same place, but one can hope that he pulled it out in his attempt to show me that he will read it.

What are we doing relative to the cause of the affair? Talking/talking/talking, camping by ourselves, having date-night once a week, sex constantly. It helps that the baby is 2 1/2, but without this happening, I don't know if I would have realized that I needed to put him back on the front burner instead of the back. With my two older boys (17 and 13) it helps because we have help with the baby and they don't need our constant attention at that age. Additionally, my parents watch the baby during the day and keep him every Thursday night (which is our date night). His Mom takes the baby one weekend a month and the 13 year old, so we have that time to either go camping, which we did in late summer, or go to a cabin, or just do lots of nothing, but by ourselves. The communication is what is so important. And his whole tone of voice/body, along with mine, is much more caring. I think we both got to the point that we were married, I'm tired, I have other things on my mind, he/she understands, I'm just too tired to try to make him/her feel good tonight. Now neither of us are like that anymore. It is back to the real "us" that was there before baby.

Depression. Different issue entirely I believe. He does not like to admit when he needs help. One important point I failed to mention in all of these posts... he stopped taking his medication for depression in July ... something I did not know about until mid-August when he told me and started taking the medication again. We did discuss this with the doctor (family and his specialist) and both indicated that the instant withdrawal from taking the medication could have contributed greatly to his feelings of inadequency, feelings of complete failure, etc. that he was feeling that led up to him feeling that he needed her because she made him feel good ... she did not know anything about him, yet I did ... he felt that I deserved better and since to him we weren't getting along, then that was his out.

Again, maybe Sami D is really on to something relative to a need he has to keep my attention focused on him?

December 23, 2005

StrugglingtoDeal,

I read your post and I found myself very interested in your story. Let me tell you why I can relate.

First, I am trying to crawl out of an EA with a man. We email a lot. Where he works is where I go to college. He has met my son. He has taken me for dinner numerous times. We have gone for coffee. We have gone for beer. He would never want to make me feel responsible for HIS selfish need to keep me in his pumpkin shell. I accused him of taking a stab at his wife by having me in his life, but he was offended by that comment. The latest develoment is that him and I have both agreed to call things off, and he will always consider me a friend, and we do still email. It's the holidays, so we won't be at the college. If his wife ever discovered the EA, then she would be in the same situation that you are in, at least until I graduate. She would have to deal with the fact that I am a student and that he works there.

As the OW, even now, I am always hoping that he would leave her and pursue a real relationship with me. He says he'll never leave her, but he has said other things in the past that still haunt me. Things to the effect of "maybe one day..." or "if I am ever single"...etc. Like I said, I'm trying to crawl out of this EA/dependency. Just like your husband did not reveal much about himself personally, I recognize the same pattern in this man. Thank you for that insight.

My dad has a degenerative autoimmune disease. It's probably the same one that your husband has been experiencing. I remember that my mom actaully had an affair around the time when my dad's health was worsening. They are still married, and it's 16 years later. When I think that I may end up with the same disease that my dad has, I wonder who will want to take care of me, because what my dad has is crippling. I feel sort of like I let my "X" free of that potential responsibility, by separating. We had several issues that forced our separation, but I always thought deep down that he was rationalizing my expressed fear that I was getting my dad's disease. My fear of developing the disease gives me a sense that a man would have to love me very deeply and truly in order to accept the consequences of such severe arthritis. I am suggesting that your husband feared that your love would not be strong enough to see through his condition, and that he sought the OW because he thought he might have to settle for second best. If she was as weathered as you describe, then it makes sense.

He needed her for a time, but if he found you were there just as strong as he needed you to be, then that washed up old supply clerk is no threat to you. If she tries to press him for a date, then he should be firm and say no. If she helped him realize how important you are and how imporant he is to you, then he might appreciate her and respect her enough to refrain from giving her any grief.

Your husband might want to know that the clerk may benefit from any grief he could give her. She may need to have that heartstring severed. He owes it to her. She may feel miserable to hear him say, "Oh you silly old girl...you washed up old clerk...I was crazy to go for you...I almost f** up my marriage, but I would have never chosen you...I was not well... you have been used..."

I've got to check my email now. Heh.

December 23, 2005

Thank you for your reply ... your story is very interesting to me as it seem as if we are both on the opposite side, so the thoughts/ideas going through my head I can enlighten you with and vice-versa. Also, your Dad's disease and my husbands sounds familiar. Which would be like one in a million. What my H has is generally 9 times out of 10 a woman over the age of 50. My H is obviously a man, and is only 34 ... he was diagnosed when he was 32, but showed signs, which we didn't know what they were, for about four years before that. Ever heard of Sjorgren's? It is a cousin to Lupus and, of course, also goes along with RA. Of course, it is hereditary and he has a huge worry that his son will develop it in the future. That is on the back of his mind daily and bothers him totally.

The good thing in my scenario is that it never did turn into a PA. Not saying it couldn't have. If I would have told him to leave and that I hated him, I was mad at him, etc., which I think he wanted me to do/but I didn't, then I know they would have had a PA. Knowing my H as well as I do, I know that he would have tried coming back within two weeks/a month at the most. The only thing that stopped him from leaving? Because he knew it would be a one-way street. He has said that through all of that, the one thing he couldn't lose was me. It wasn't an option for him. If he lost me, he would have ended up committing suicide eventually. Losing me and only seeing his son on every other weekend type stuff, and dealing with the pain he has everyday (all the specialists have been sure to explain to me that what he feels is comparable to what we would feel when we have the worst flu possible and everything hurts, it can even hurt to blink your eyes ... that is how he feels everyday, yet must still get up and live life). Every night when he went to bed in July/August he told me that he would pray to God that he wouldn't wake up in the morning. He hates his life - because of his health, not because of his family. He can't even get a new life insurance policy, or disability insurance as they have denied him because of this disease. The only thing that has kept him from committing suicide is that he thinks I won't get any insurance money. He obviously didn't listen to our agent when he said that the suicide clause is only effective for the 1st year. But I will never let him know any different.

Anyway, there really isn't much that they can talk about when the conversation is only two or three minutes at most. It really is just the thought that she thinks she is better than me, that if she really wanted my h that she could have him that bothers me and I know it is an ego thing, but I can't get over that. I want my H to tell her just like you said. Selfishly for me. But, I also know that it would be good for her to know. I want him to be mean because I had been hurt. I don't want him to be mean because really, that is not what either of us is like. Neither of us have ever hurt anyone intentionally. As I type that I know that he hurt me, but honest to God, I don't think he realized what he was doing. We have talked about if he was trying to push me away, which in a strong way I do think it is what he was doing, but in the course of things, developed a strong relationship with her. Maybe not as strong as I have in my mind, since he never shared anything of himself with her and planned never to, but to him, he was so confused and so "out there" that he felt she is what he deserved. He said that to me. He said multiple times that I deserve a better husband and the kids deserve a better father. I, of course, always correct him, but it is there in his mind and something I think he struggles with everyday. And, it is all because of his health.

You know, when my H told her that one night he kissed her, that he wanted to be with her, but had to be with me, just as that plays out in my mind, I'm sure it plays in hers, just like you said. But, let me ask you something. If he never sought you out, never initiated conversations with you EXCEPT for school issues, and when you tried tomake it personal he cut the conversation off within two/three minutes, what would you think then? Would you realize that he doesn't want anything to do with you on a personal level? (Please don't take this wrong ... your situation may be different ... but I would like your opinion on what my OW may be thinking from her point of view.) Is it as my H says that it is all one-sided? He asked me why I can't understand that, that no matter what, it is only one-sided. I can understand that, but because he did cross the line, I have a very hard time accepting that they even have to talk b/c of work. Another thing I know he told her that night was that if it wasn't for me and our son, then he would be with her. He told me that as well. Now, that is one of the many things he says he doesn't know how he said that b/c he would never want to be with her and I do believe him b/c she isn't anything that he would ever be happy with. Too many things that he is insistent upon that would come between them. Add to that that he is the type of man that enjoys having an attractive partner that he can basically be proud of (don't we all). I'm not saying she isn't pretty, because in her way she is, but at her age she already looks 10 years older, she doesn't have a chest or a butt. My H is first a butt man, then a boob man. She has neither. The smoking is a big part of it also along with the fact that she has kids ... not that he doesn't like kids, but he only wants to deal with his, not anyone elses. The second-best thing you said rings a bell with me because he said that he deserves her and I deserve better. Do you think that relates?

A question for you, that maybe you might have already, or want to think about that may help you in your situation. Have you thought about what a real life would be like with him? He would be at school and you would be at home, or at work. Would you be able to trust him, or would you wander if he was developing a relationship with another student? Would that be something that would haunt you, or something that you wouldn't even think of? If he has kids that would come into play as well. And, believe me, kids in a relationship can really make things stressful.

When you said that my OW helped my H realize that he loves me and wants to be with me and may be grateful and not want to give her any grief. That may be possible as well. He is adamant that there is nothing there for him relative to her and that he only wants to be with me for as long as he has left. (Note here that he never tells me forever, because he KNOWS that he is going to be dead within the next 9 1/2 years, either from his disease or cancer ... he has always thought growing up that he would die from cancer before he turned 45.) He doesn't just tell me that he doesn't want her, he does tell me that he doesn't want anyone else either. I am definitely not worried about him developing an EA/PA with another woman. It is just this one that I can't handle and I'm sure it is because it already went over the line. I don't see how, once you go over the line, you can ever go back. I think that is where you are at also, am I correct? How do you just cut off your feelings for this man? You want to wait on the sidelines for him to realize that he should be with you, but it doesn't happen. So you wait and hope and continue to do so. Maybe not so much as planned, but in the back of your mind it is always there. Am I correct? If so, that is what I feel she is thinking and that bothers me. I don't want her there.

Don't get me wrong, I know that there is a guy I know through work that would leave his wife in an instant if there were to ever be a chance that I would be available. (I travel for my job throughout the states ... he goes to the same places I do). I have known this guy for 15 years, yet I have never wanted to be with him, it doesn't enter my mind. We were friends for about four years. Remember I was married before and in a bad relationship. I probably was having an EA with him when I was married to my Ex, but didn't really even think anything about it. When I met current H, I never gave this other guy a second thought. He was there for me when I needed it, but there was no need for him anymore, make sense? I have never continued any type of real personal conversations with him ... we go places on trips with a crowd and don't even sit together, or hange out. I make it a point to make sure that there isn't anything he could ever misconstrue to think that I want to be with him. I don't think that would be fair to him, or to me, or to my H. My H does know about him, but knows that there is nothing there on my side. Maybe that goes with his point that he trusts me, I should trust him. As I type this I am wondering if what I don't trust is her. That is something I am going to have to think about. With her history of seeming to always be the agressor, I worry that she won't stop, won't go away, and will try something eventually. Not that they are ever in a private setting, but I wonder what idea she could come up with.

Will my H ever say anything to her? I highly doubt it. I asked him the other night if it is ever going to bother him that she still calls. He said it doesn't bother him because it isn't like it is every day, or every week even. And it isn't like they are talking about anything personal ... she'll ask him how everything is, he says great, she asks how work is going, or something particular about someone they know from work, she'll ask him what he did, or is going to do that weekend, he'll tell her he and I went shopping, or something. He always makes sure to say my name and he went/did/is going to. He does that b/c I told him that if he just says I, then she will think he is omitting me on purpose and he isn't happy. Funny thing is, is that when he started adding me into the equation, she didn't like it at all via her tone of voice.

I have to go ... my 17 year old is waiting for me to take him shopping. I would love to chat with you some more and get more of your point of view and, maybe in the course, help you deal with what you are going through. Thanks so much for replying!

December 23, 2005

dealing with the pain he has everyday (all the specialists have been sure to explain to me that what he feels is comparable to what we would feel when we have the worst flu possible and everything hurts, it can even hurt to blink your eyes ... that is how he feels everyday, yet must still get up and live life). Every night when he went to bed in July/August he told me that he would pray to God that he wouldn't wake up in the morning. He hates his life - because of his health, not because of his family. He can't even get a new life insurance policy, or disability insurance as they have denied him because of this disease. The only thing that has kept him from committing suicide is that he thinks I won't get any insurance money. He obviously didn't listen to our agent when he said that the suicide clause is only effective for the 1st year. But I will never let him know any different.

Because of this, he needs to talk to someone one on one. Some sort of therapy so he can cope with his illness. He is depressed and honestly if he goes to talk to someone it will help him so much.

December 23, 2005

I never heard of Sjorgren's. It sounds more severe than RA. RA does not reduce life expectancy, as it seems your husband's condition can. My dad had a heart attack a couple of years ago but has since been well, with a new valve in his heart and without cigarettes. The trouble is that my dad cannot exercise. He used to love coaching softball, but now he is happy to do his woodwork. He displays incredible strength, both physical and mental.

I have developed a strong relationship with the man I have been seeing, as the OW. I am currently trying to back off from him and I am allowing myself to let him know what is happening in my head and heart. I'm not interested in having hopes in the back of my mind forever. Even if I met someone and fell in love and had a good relationship and a good life, I know that he would still be the ultimate choice, against which I would compare everyone else. I need to find a way to cut all ties to this man. The good news is that it never went beyond a kiss toward a PA. Emotionally, I am right into him, which is bad news. The other bad news is that he is teaching my course next semester. Right now, he's getting a healthy dose of my reality, but only through email. This online collaboration style of interacting and communicating, is good but certainly has its limits. Anyway, this man loves his wife, but he sure opens himself up for me in a lot of ways, but he never gets as personal as I get with him to reveal things about myself and my life. I guess he has his wife for those particular needs. I am only compensating for what he cannot find in his marriage, right?

If he never sought me out, and never initiated conversations with me EXCEPT for school issues then I would think that he is a great instructor and a nice guy, an awesome person, but a big geek. If he never let our conversations get personal, then I would have moved on toward someone else who would go there with me. I needed someone to be a good friend, be attracted to me, boost my esteem, someone who would find me interesting and who could lift my spirits. I had just gotten separated when I met him, and he did accomplish all those things in a very short time. He needed someone like me, too, because his marriage was in crisis. While he does not want me to get too personal, he does want as much to do with me as he can manage. He was vulnerable when I was stopping by his office and talking with him. He pursued me by stating that I am attractive, and emailing me a lot. I was vulnerable, like I said, and I pursued him just as much. Things progressed in tiny stages, to where it is now... over the line.

Is it all one-sided? That is a loaded question. At this stage, his wife is unaware of the EA and he is only backing off, not by his own choice, but only when I indicate to him that he should, for my sake. In time, after we back off, I believe that I was happier when I was miserable with him, and things get back on track. If it reaches the stage where his wife is aware of the EA, then there will be his moment to decide if I am worth the huge change in his life, or not. If he chooses his wife, then she will reinforce his choice and leave me behind. It would be one-sided for me to pursue anything at that point. How much proof would I need?!

After reading your first post, I noticed how she seemed like the second-best thing for him. It relates exactly to you saying that he thinks he deserves her and you deserve better. The truth is probably that you and your H deserve each other and that the OW is delusional.

A real life would with this man of mine would be better than this EA. I am attracted to the real life with him in terms of how I envision our lifestyle, but I still wonder about issues like sex (ie. would it be great?) and about our age difference of 15 years (ie. how will he look in 5 years from now when already he looks too old for me?). He has kids that are 13 years older than my son. I have met one of them- the one that hates his mom. I would not totally trust him, and I would not only wonder if he was developing a relationship with another student, but I bet I might find a sexier man for myself, on the side. His marriage is marked with past affairs. His wife cheated and he cheated, and his wife was becoming very involved with her current boss, but not to the point of a PA because her boss refused.

The only chance I have of cutting off my feelings for this man is to confront him with my wants in a clear fashion and have those wants either denied in a clear fashion, or accepted in a clear fashion. I hope that I can switch my fondness for him to detest, in the inevitable event of being denied. I don't want to wait on the sidelines for him. I told him exactly what I want from him and if he gives me what I want, then he will be divorcing his wife. If he won't give it to me, then I will be upset enough to know better than give him any other chances. I am sure it all sounds so immature and naive, but it's what I'm going through.

The problem is that I can't get away from him and he can't get away from me. Does this help you? It helps me, but it also confuses me. I may end up best friends with his wife! Can you picture that?

December 27, 2005

WWIU -

I agree wtih you that he needs professional help; however, it is a very touchy thing to discuss with him. He won't admit that he needs the help, even with the family doctor indicating to him that he needs to get involved in counseling. I think his biggest fear is that a counselor would tell him he is screwed up, which is as he thinks. Add his physical ailments to it now and that just really makes him think ... what is it that he said the other day .... that he isn't a great catch at all. I do all that I can to let him know that he is a great catch and in reality he is. But inside himself, he doesn't think he is. His mother and I have actually talked about all this (we were with her when all this came out in August). She thinks that I should go to counseling and then have him go to "support" me. It is an idea worth considering.

Why do you suppose he is so against it? Because he doesn't want to show that he needs help? Because to go to counseling may be him admitting failure? I don't know the answer to it and worry that in some way, maybe counseling wouldn't be a good idea for him. I know I get that thought from his responses to my suggestions of counseling, but the doubt and worry is still there.

I can sit here and justify to anyone and everyone, except myself, of why the EA happened. I accept my part of blame in it all. But, what I have trouble with is dealing with the pain and betrayal, and the anger. I want to learn how to control those feelings before they get the best of me. We both want our marriage to work, but sometimes I feel as if he should be the one that proves to me that he wants to be with me and that I shouldn't have to prove anything to him, I mean, I'm not the one who had the EA. I know that isn't logical, we both have to prove it. In any relationship, both people have to be secure in the knowledge that the other person wants to be there, that the love they give is indeed returned. And for the most part I do, but sometimes that anger gets the best of me.

Civalien -

Sjorgren's kind of goes with RA. If you have it, you also have Sjorgrens. I believe this is the same with Lupus as well, but not sure on that count.

It seems that you are very close with your Dad and you came close to losing him a few years ago relative to the heart valve. I think I'm correct in this assumption ... your MM is older than you, you respect his intelligence, his warmth, the idea of the safety he can bring to you, but he isn't what you would normally find physically attractive. Am I correct? In a way, you may be unknowingly trying to replace your Father? Just a thought.

Don't all of us women, who have a good relationship with our Father's always compare men we date/have a relationship with to our Fathers in some way or another? In reality I think we all have one or two relationships in our past that we fondly look back on and think what ifs ... but know that it wouldn't have worked out. I think we tend to forget about the bad things, or even little things that bothered us, that made the relationship not work out. Where I'm going with this is that although you think that he is ultimately what you will always want, I think that when you do find someone that is willing to share his life with you, and only you, then you will find that which you (all of us) are looking for. Also, I noticed that you said you hope your "fondness" for him, not "love" for him. Once you find that someone willing to share your life with that you love and that love is returned without anything being held back, your thoughts of this MM will no longer be relevent.

I understand that it may be awhile in happening and that it does hurt. I don't there is anyone in any of these types of relationships be it the MM/MW/BS/OW/OM that isn't hurt or in some type of pain. Even though you and I are on different sides of the coin in all of this, I can certainly sympathize with your pain.

I also think that he is dragging you along in all of this. He has let you know that he loves his wife and he won't leave her, yet here you are. Allowing him to drag you through hell. I'm not denying that he obviously needs you and that you are filling some type of void that he feels he needs that he isn't getting at home. Maybe he isn't really looking for it at home? But I don't think that matters. In your case, I think that what matters is really, what is he giving you? It seems as if it is all give and take. Give from you and take from him. He listened to you, yes. He allowed you to talk about your personal information with him which makes you feel special. You go to coffee and dinners and spend time together. But he doesn't share with you a lot of his personal information. He keeps that from you. Why does he hold back from you? That is not fair to you and deep down, you know you deserve better. Otherwise, him being married aside, you wouldn't be trying to break free.

Teaching your next course. That would be tough to deal with. If you break it off with him completely, then you have to deal with seeing him all the time, listening to his voice, etc. If you remain as you are, then still it will be tough to deal with knowing that he goes home at night to someone else. I think you are right that you need to tell him exactly what you want to happen. But, I think you really need to think about what it is that you do want to happen. You said that you can envision a life with him, but that you can see where you may have an affair on him. I don't think that is the type of relationship/marriage that you really want. What you envision is also how you envision it. How does/would he envision it? Have you two ever talked about how you would want to live if it were together? What types of things do you like to do that he likes to do? Would he expect you to be like his current wife is now? Or, would he expect you to be involved in all things he does? A thought I have is this. His wife does not know what is going on with the two of you, yet he has dinner with you, goes to coffee with you. Would he expect you to be just as content as his wife is, or would he have a problem if you had a problem with him doing what he is doing with someone else. Would he have a problem with you needing to know where he is, who he is with, etc.? It doesn't sound as if his wife has a problem, or much less cares where he is or who he is with. That may be what he is getting from you, someone who shows they care. But, will it still be something that is endearing to him in a relationship, or because he obviously enjoys his freedom to do what he wants/when he wants now, something that will make him upset with you in a relationship?

O.K., sorry to have gone on like that on your situation. I should find your thread and post there. But, since we started here, thought it would be the easiest. Again, don't think I am necessarily being hard on you just because I want to. I think you posted to my thread because we are both on opposites sides and can give each-other some insights into how each is feeling. I also think you posted because you want to break-free, but are at a loss as how to do so. I'm sure that you have thought all this through and you have probably already thought all that I said above, but I know you deserve better than what is being handed to you right now and if he does decide to leave his wife, then I still think you deserve better than someone that you wouldn't trust, or that you yourself would think of possibly finding someone for the side.

When I had asked you if you thought it was one-sided, I'm sorry if you misunderstood me, but I was wondering if you thought that it was all one-sided from my H's OW's point of view. Wow ... that was a lot to say, LOL. What I meant is that my H tells me that while he knows the OW calls him and asks him how he is doing for herself and not for work, that it is all one-sided for him because he doesn't want anything to do with her. So, do I agree with his point of view? He isn't doing anything against our marriage, or against me. Of course, I can argue that because I would prefer they never talk at all, even though the logical side of me knows that isn't an option unless he went to work for another company, which is always an option as the competition company has always let it be known that they would hire him in a heartbeat. But, he has been with this company for 16 years and is a superintendent ... starting at the the bottom of the totem pole would not be desireable and I can completely understand that and it isn't something that I would ever force. So how do I deal with the knowledge that deep down inside my OW, she wants my H and probably always will? I do I control the outrage that I feel anytime my H tells me that she asked how he was doing? You indicated how much proof would you need ... my question is how much proof does she need? If what she really needs is my H telling her in no uncertain terms that it never would have happened, it would never have lasted if it had, and she isn't what he wants, he only used her, etc., etc. Whatever it took for him to say to her that he isn't willing/isn't ever going to say to her, then what happens? When will she finally get the hint and leave him alone? Sami D said something that has made me think. She isn't pining away for him. However, she is interested and until she finds someone for herself, then she might always be there waiting in the shadows.

I wish I could find someone for her to make her happy so that she would leave my H alone. Sometimes I wonder why she has been alone for eight years ... although she has dated, it seems as if it has always been married men. Why won't she find someone that she can have just for herself? Is it because she is afraid to make a committment since her Ex left her for OW? Or, is it because she is looking to justify herself by trying to take other H's away from their wives, boyfriends from girlfriends, etc.?

Thoughts of her override my common sense. I need to focus solely on my H and our relationship, but I worry that she is always there, over our shoulders watching and waiting. I can't get that feeling across to my H. He says that he doesn't feel that way about her, never did, etc., etc., so he doesn't understand why I can't just let it go. I let him know it was because of the hurt that I can't let it go. I also have a fear that if I can't let it go, that I will drive him away, that my insecurity, even though justified, will drive him away. I need to learn how to deal with it and how to make the thoughts of her never come into play again. I need to learn how to deal with the anger I feel towards him when I think of him even allowing her in to the extent that he did. Even though it was small, it was still over the line. I need to learn how to deal with the anger I feel towards her when I hear that she called just to see how he is doing. Work I can blow off and swallow my pride. But when she is just calling out of the blue? How am I to handle that? My H doesn't want to make a big deal out of it because he feels that she has to do it for work, even though he admits that he knows she is really doing it for herself, he expects that kind of service from any of his vendors. So how do I deal with that? Just ignore it and make our marriage the best it can be, so that she doesn't have a leg to stand on?

To be honest, I am afraid that I can't do that. I'm afraid that I lost the ability to make him laugh, make him happy, make us happy. I am so afraid of the hurt and the pain and going through all that again I have a wall up that I swore I wouldn't put up. But, because I am afraid of the pain, I feel that it is preventing me from enjoying what I do have, a H that wants to be with me, that found out through his EA that he doesn't want to lose me. I'm afraid b/c the OW is a daily, or weekly, or monthly reminder (whatever the case may be) to me, to my H. I know that she is more of a reminder to me than to my H b/c to him it is over and never really went anywhere and she isn't what he would have ever wanted. I know that she is on my mind more than she is on my Hs. To me it isn't over because I still feel the pain. I want it to be over so bad, but don't know how to get there. I want to be relaxed enough that the ability to make him laugh, to make us happy is there. How can I relax knowing that she is in the corner? Does it matter if my H wants nothing to do with her except for work? How can I get that into my head and realize it for fact?

My H is back to himself and his loving ways with me that stopping in July. He calls me throughout the day to see how my day is going, he tells me all about his day, he blows kisses on the phone, everything is there for me. What I am struggling with is how to accept the calls that she makes that for all to see, aren't stopping. As the OW, wouldn't you eventually give up? Or, like Sami said, since she is interested, will always be there and that is something I need to learn to accept? Would I love to call her up and give her a piece of my mind, YES. But, I won't. Maybe it is because I'm not a confrontational type of person. Maybe it is because I don't want to put any importance on her that she is aware of. (If I were to do that, she would then think that we are having problems that my H hasn't told her about and would therefore continue in her efforts thinking she has light at the end of her tunnel ... my opinion anyway.) Our only problems are my inability to deal with her being in the corner. If I were never made aware of that fact and they never had an EA, and both my H and I knew that she flirted with him and was obviously interested, it would never had bothered me because I was secure. I know my h won't have another EA, or have a PA, but it is the fear of the pain that I now know. I'm sorry I'm rambling today ... there are so many thoughts in my head I can't seem to keep them clear.

To be friends with the OW? I know that wouldn't work for me. You know, she told my H that she doesn't want anything to do with him personally anyway because she doesn't want to have to deal with me. This came from when I showed up at her work and asked her to lunch. She feels that because I went to her work that I'm a phsyco. Of course, she doesn't think that her sleeping with a guy, then calling up his fiance' and telling her all about it is crazy ... she feels that she owed it to the other girl so that she would know what she was marrying. Was this her telling him (which was after he told her that he was going to do all that he could to make our marriage work) that she doesn't want anything to do with him like that, so that he could feel rejected and hence, want to be with her because it would be like the candy you can't have? Or, was it her telling him so that they can remain friends? Friends as in her sense of the word. I don't think friends as in friends of the marriage sense as I do honestly think that she will jump at the first chance, or sign that we aren't getting along.

Can you be friends with his wife? As long as she never knows, probably. Because I think in the long run, you respect him and admire him more than you love him. But, why would you want to put yourself in that position? Seeing him in a social setting interacting with his wife. Even if you came to the realization that a relationship with him would not be want you wanted out of life, he may never come to that realization. Unless he came to the same conclussion, then I don't think a friendship would work out with you and the wife because she would get a sense that something just wasn't right. Although, you know, stranger things have happened. My Dad's best friend is my mother's former lover. It went on for about 15 years while I was growing up. At that time I thought it was normal because that was the way I grew up and we grew up with his kids. We all had dinner every night at my house and we always went camping together, etc. Everything we did was always together. Anyway, one day it all blew up b/c my oldest brother told my mother some things that made her stop it all. For about 10 years my parents didn't have any other contact with this man although us kids still stayed in contact with the other kids... we were like brothers and sisters. About two years ago my father received a call from the other man apologizing and asking for his forgiveness. Since then they have talked everyday and see each other about every other month. In the end, I don't think it was worth it to my Mom, or to the OM, for the pain that it caused, but the friendship did end up working out after all. Why did I tell you this story? B/c while I think it may be possible to be friends with the wife and all, it doesn't come without a lot of pain not only to yourself, but to anyone that is involved included children.

Do I think what you are going through, what you are feeling is niave? Not in the slightest. Like I said above, I think that he is dragging you through all this not so much as it is his intent to hurt you, but I think in his need to have what it is that he is getting from you, he doesn't know and/or care about the hurt you are feeling. If it is because he doesn't care, I don't mean that he doesn't care for you, but that in his self-justification for getting what he needs, he thinks it is a fair trade-off for you to be hurt because he doesn't see any other way to get what he needs. Feelings are real and no one can tell you what to feel, if you are right, or wrong. But you can take control and make the choice to allow him to continue to use you in this fashion, or put your foot down and tell him to make his choice. Just think about it before you make him choose and make sure that he is truly what you want forever. If he isn't, then let him make the mistake with someone else and find someone that will treat you as richly as you deserve to be treated, with complete faithfulness to you.

I realize in my marriage where I wasn't there for my H, which caused him to seek out someone else. I am deeply sorry that I let that occur and know that I will never let that happen again. I stopped listening to him. I had so many things going on in my head at once, work, a 17 year old who was doing all he could to test every one of his limits, a 12 year old and a 2 year old. When he would talk, I would nod my head like I was listening, but I was thinking about the 20 different things I still needed to get done. I learned that I need to listen to him, that we both must take time for each other everyday and that we can't take each other for granted. I learned that we needed to get back to doing the things we both enjoyed. We let our lives get the better of us and we stopped doing enjoyable things together. We always did everything together, but we stopped doing the enjoyable things.

It is interesting that you say he can't get away from you and vice versa. My H and I are the same way. Even through all this, while he was telling me that he was going to go to the OW, that it was going to happen, that he didn't want to be with me, that he wanted to be with her, he never left, he never let me leave. I never left him and I never let him leave. He never allowed me to be alone and I never allowed him to be alone. He was always touching me and I was always touching him. We could not let that connection die, it was like we needed it to keep on living. We needed each other and it wasn't an option to either of us to lose the other. But, he was never like that with the OW - but it still is something difficult for me to deal with.

You know, hopefully both of us can get through this in one piece and much stronger for having gone through it. I do thank you for your honesty with me in how you are dealing with what you are going through as it does help me with what I am going through, and, I hope, I can return the favor.

December 29, 2005

I have always preferred to spend time with men rather than with women. Women are mean when they are jealous! It is an interesting thought that the MM in my life is compensating for the fear I have of losing my father. It is likely true to some degree.

You will be happy to hear that I have avoided the MM since the 23rd. I needed him to give me so much more than he was giving me. I wanted him to marry me. I told him that I wanted this from him and he replied that he could NEVER give me what I want. It was all through emails. He went on to say that he suffers when we aren't getting along and that he will accept any terms I may have regarding my relationship to him. I could be his friend, just like all his other students are his friends. (He is very well-liked and very personable). Or I could be a friend in an EA with him. He and I have discussed that the relationship we have been having has been an EA. He would also have accepted it if I told him that we would not be friends at all. His emails have been making me angry because it has become obvious to me that he is manipulating me to stay wanting him. I told him I wanted him to marry me, like I said. He replied that he could never do that.

**It is very difficult for me to give an account of the events because my emotions get in the way of my concentration and I jumble up...so please sift throught the debris as best you can**

His replies are usually stern that he is just for his wife, yet his replies are always designed to make me feel good. I finally had had enough of his smooth talk and I told him that I could not be friends with him, at all. He replied with smooth talk that made me laugh and made me think that I should be friend because he is such a great guy. He is ALWAYS willing to be involved with me as long as I am the cherry on top of his life. Anyway, I pushed the MM as far away from me as I could. After it was clear to him that I wanted him to marry me, I would no longer allow him to be friendly toward me. When he payed me another compliment, after I had already explained to him that I won't settle for a friendship, I took it as though he were pushing for an EA and hoping for a PA. I told him that he was making me want to marry him and that he should stop being likeable. If he triggered my emotions, he triggered my ultimate goal. He finally got mean with me and I was shocked to read his words. He really cut me down and insulted the father of my child. I never emailed him again. I don't want to email him because it would leave me to await his reply. The whole cycle would begin again and I would soon be hoping for me to be his wife. Forget it. I pushed him away. He won't approach me again. He emailed once and addressed it to my son. The email was about a movie on TV and contained a "Merry Christmas" at the end. I was tempted to reply to that email, but I knew I would be wasting my time. I spent a lot of time emailing him and meeting with him. He is a waste of my time.

I know that he and I cannot have a simple friendship. It has to be either we have an EA or we don't interact. I have chosen not to interact. I stood up for myself very well last week. I had not read your post yet, and I could skim over parts of it tonight and just nod because I had decided not to settle for him already and, more importantly, I had taken action to result in my freedom.

The MM is my instructor. I will try to sit in his class, but if it does not work then I'm in trouble. I'll have to wait and see what it is like. If I cannot concentrate, then I may as well not be in class. I'll end up getting notes off someone and just showing up for exams. How will I explain that to my classmates? Gawd. What a mess.

I have broken free. That MM makes me ill. I was desperate for romance and he was desperate for an EA. I still need a significant other in my life and I am giving my old boyfriend all my attention. I want to be back with him, but I don't want to be back with him. We would need counselling for sure and we would need to really work at resolving some MAJOR issues. I don't know where to send my heart. I am the type that always needs someone to hold me and listen to me. My x was not so great at that, but I don't want to get to know anybody new.

Your H tells you that while he knows the OW calls him and asks him how he is doing for herself and not for work, that it is all one-sided for him because he doesn't want anything to do with her? Ummmmm...that makes me think that he may like the attention he gets from that OW. Maybe he expects her to fish for him so he can feel so proud about his commitment to you. Maybe he likes to feel pursued by her. Maybe she will finally get the hint and leave him alone when he stops relying on her calls. He may not wait by the phone for her, but his psyche may feed off her calls. Men like to feel like they have succeeded in courting women. Peacocks have their feathers and moose battle with their antlers in order to impress the females of those species. Humans are more complex than that. Your H may be very slyly and almost subconsciously contributing to the OW's dependency on him. How is his tone of voice to her? Would you be able to accept that the OW is your H's ego? Would you be able to realize that the OW and your H are playing a game? I played their game and it is exciting. It's a thought.

The OW is indeed afraid to make a committment. I am not the type to enjoy torturing others, but maybe she enjoys torturing you. Maybe you comiserate. Maybe your H is one proud peacock, like I said. Maybe you are insecure. Maybe you need to see another perspective on your situation.

There is a thought in my head about my ex that I cannot shake. He never had sex with any woman before we got together. How will I ever deal with it? He is free to go and get some sex now that we are separated, and he is trying. He just wants sex with another woman. Can I accept that? He is not succeeding, so I am still dealing with the "what if" scenerio in my head. I think it is similar to your fear. Look at what you have. You have a man who loves you and whom you love and you share a child together. You could picture the three of you as an unshakeable family unit, which you have proven yourselves to be in the light of this EA your H had with this OW. Throw off that switch in your head that signals for you to fear the OW. It's not that easy, is it? Aw shucks, I don't know! Why don't you call in sick every once in awhile to your work and go to your husbands work and wait for her call? You could tell her off and threaten her to make her go away. I think that you need to do one of two things: (1) threaten her (2) ignore her. In nature, threats are everywhere. This OW has had no consequence to her life for have a secret EA with your H. Give her a consequence.

Where is your H in all this? He should be asking you what HE can do to help you cope with this OW in the background of your life. He put her there. He excuses her for being there more than she needs to be. He should support any method you may devise to rid yourself of the threat that this OW imposes upon you. Ask your H if he would think it were reasonable if you were to publicize his EA at the place of his work, and deal with the problem of her phoning him. Is SHE the only employee at her work who can make calls of the nature that she makes to your husband? She must have a superior who can handle the task. The great thing about EA or PA is that they are secret. I'll have to tell my ex that I had a MM in my sights and tell him the entire story. He will look at me as though I have no ethics. He will see a side of me that I am not proud to display.

You won't call her up and give her a piece of your mind? I don't blame you. You're not a confrontational type of person? That's funny because you sure are struggling to confront the issue of the OW. I believe that things grow. Start confronting people and your issues with people. That skill will grow and develop to where you will be able to confront the OW, but not for a cat fight. You don't want to put any importance on her? Your H makes her feel important and that is enough for her!!!

You went to her work? Oh. She does not see you as a threat. You're hooped. I don't want the MM anymore. I've moved on in my head.

I was joking about being friends with his wife. I was alluding more to the fact that I was feeling on a level with you and paralleling you to the W. This is confusing! Don't take it too seriously, okay?

Maybe go to counselling with your H. Won't a counsellor basically keep track of your problems and prevent your from overanalyzing your situation to death? Chill out. Light beeswax candles and relax in your husband's arms. Cherish moments with him and live in the moment and let it linger through the next day.

Thanks for your insight. You know it helped me!

December 29, 2005

Men are much easier to get along with. I've also found that women can be mean and jealous. I have two great women friends since forever. Immediately after school they moved away and we were able to always maintain that connection we had. One moved back here two years ago however, and while the closeness remains, I find myself pulling away from her due to her jealous streak and to some degree, what I think she was doing was still competing with me like we did in school. Maybe you didn't play this game in school, but we did. The game where you try to get the other girl's guy? We'll she moved back here because she got a divorce ... she left her h because of other women. It wasn't one woman, it was many, and she got tired of it and left. But, since she got back here, I've noticed things that I really do not like. As my friend I would have assumed that she wouldn't play these games and when I brought it to her attention that I didn't like them, she said she wasn't doing anything, but she didn't stop either. The things that she would do? Intentionally lean over while wearing low cut tops and getting my H attention, if I got something from my H she would jokingly complain to him that since she is his other wife, then he should get her something. Stuff like that which I just got tired of. Three months ago she moved to the next city as she found a boyfriend that seems to be just what she needs. Don't know why I went on that rant ... I guess because we were talking about why it is easier to have friendships with men rather than women. But, those friendships can get just as confusing can't they? With all that said though, I do thing women can be your strongest ally when needed. They come prepared with all the support you need and will stay with you through the end.

Happy to hear that you've avoided MM? Yes and no. Not because I'm the wife and I think bad about OW. That isn't it at all. Yes because I think it is best for you, especially when I read how he responded when you were staying firm in your resolve to not continue with him. His anger and resulting hurtful words weren't needed and just went to show you that if a relationship with him continued, even with him marrying you, any time you stepped over his invisible line of what is acceptable to him, he would hurt you with words. I think if you give someone enough time, they will eventually show their true colors. No, because of the pain that you are going through. I understand it hurts. It hurts no matter what side you are on.

Accounts on events are very hard to do I think for anyone here on this board. Our emotions are overwhelming us and are sometimes hard to control. That is why I came on this board. It gives me the ability to get these thoughts and ideas out of my head. It allows me to get someone else's perspective on what is happening and lets me know that I'm not going crazy. The more you type, it seems the more you remember, it just isn't in order.

I think the hardest part of all this is going to be having him as an instructor. However, if you continue with your resolve to not have anything to do with him it may make it easier. Hate. That is a strong word, maybe despise would be better, but either one may be what you need to get through it. If you begin to hate/despise what he represents (a MM who wants to just use you and will never have any intention of leaving his w), if you can look at him just a few times and think what a joke he is, then you can eventually look past him and move on with your life.

Things he said about your child's father, while hurtful to you, ignore them. It isn't his business anyway is it? You trusted in him enough to give him the information to use to hurt you with. Realize that and it will also help you realize that he isn't worth your time of day. How dare he use your son (via the email) to get to you. If I recall, your son is too young to be able to read himself and therefore, you would have to read it to him. Sorry if I'm wrong on that one, but still I think he did it just to keep himself top of your mind. He wants you so that he can feed off of you and continue to take, take, take, but he's not willing to give you want you want, or need. He is a dog. He really is and you deserve way better than that.

I understand it is hard and with him trying and being an instructor next semester ... again, I think it will only benefit you if you despise him and then when you can accept that you deserve better and he is nothing but a slimeball, then you will be able to look past him and it won't affect you anymore. Maybe eventually, years down the road, you will be able to think of him with some fondness that he helped you through a tough period in your life as he was there for you to talk to, and that will be o.k., because you will be past him then.

Your old boyfriend is interesting. What is it that made you two separate in the first place? If you go back to him, will you feel like you settled? Will he be good for your son?

Not being able to be alone. That is a tough one and one that I probably can't give any advice on ... I've never been there. My first marriage was pretty bad, but I couldn't leave it on my own. I met current H and was only then able to leave first marriage. I needed that support, I couldn't do it on my own. Today? Could I do it today? Probably, but I am much stronger now than I was 10 years ago. But in saying that I also realize that I wouldn't be alone for long. I would have to find someone, but I wouldn't settle either ... at least I don't think I would. I can understand not wanting to open yourself up to anyone else. To do so is a leap of faith isn't it? Sometimes the leap seems to far away, other times it isn't. Sometimes it is easier just to fall back onto what you know, hence your X. It may not be what you really want, but it may be want you need to get back on your feet and be strong with yourself.

Telling him that you had an EA with your instructor? I don't think that has anything to do with your ethics and if he knows you well enough he will see that. Your MM preyed on you. You indicate that you would go to his office and talk to him. He realized you were vulnerable and he took advantage of that. You needed him at that time and he used you for that need. Your X should be able to recognize that without a problem. You are not the one at fault here. You sound like a smart woman, but because you are hurting and very vulnerable right now you can't see the whole picture, you are too close to it. Outsiders can see the whole picture. I am just like you, I am a smart person, but because I am too close I can't see the whole picture and I need an outsiders view in order to clear it up for me. I feel as if I have no control even though I know I do. I don't know how to use that control because of these emotions that get the best of me.

You don't need to explain anything to anyone, particularly your classmates. He is definitely not going to tell them, why should you be the one responsible for it? If you still have trouble being in the class, find a classmate you trust completely, tell them you just can't handle that particular instructor and you would appreciate being able to copy their notes. Show up in class when you need to be there to ensure you don't get dropped, etc. Ignore him. Ignore him. Ignore him. You might have to say that over and over and lack the ability to concentrate in calss for awhile, but it can change too to where you can handle it.

I guess I should clear up where I stand on the MM/OW thing since I am a wife. If a MM develops a relationship with another woman and leaves his wife for that woman, then that is their business not mine and however they deal with any of the consequences of their actions is their business. Ten years ago I was in the MW/OM scenario and ended up marrying OM. Do I think my current problems are because of what we did and that they were bound to happen as a result of karma? Even though I believe in karma, I don't believe this is because of that ... there are too many other factors involved that weight more heavily than karma. However, I think any MM/MW who strings another person along is doing a great wrong to everyone involved and I have absolutely no respect for them. It is one thing to be unhappy and find that happiness elsewhere and go for it. It is entirely another thing to cause other people unhappiness repeatedly just to feel good about themselves for awhile and never do anything to change it.

I think there is some truth in what you think about my H. I don't recall if I explained it in this thread, or not, but our relationship is the only real realtionship he has ever had with a woman. When he was 20, he got involved with a 40 year old for sex only, it was on and off for about three years (actually, until the night he meet me). His other relationship was with a girl that lasted six months ... again, he had no feelings for her one way or the other and just kept her around for sex. For anyone, having someone pay attention to you, pay you compliments, anything that is positive is a great feeling. Him feeling proud of his committment to me? I guess that could be true to since when he tells me things like, "see, I changed the subject real fast, didn't I?" with this big smile on his face, he is proud and wants to show me how good he is.

Does he like being pursued by her? At first I'm sure he did. Now, I really don't think so. I recall a conversation I had with him in early September about her calls. (Note: I never told him he can't talk to her, or that he must stop all contact, etc., only told him that their repeated calls and any personal conversations between them was totally unacceptable to me. I let him know it was his choice in how to respond to them, but if they continued, that eventually I would reach my point that I would have to make the best decision for me. To him, it was an ultimatim. I told him he could take it as he wanted to. He did promise me that he would not call her for anything unless it was work-related, that he wouldn't talk about me, about us, or anything else that if I were to here the conversation I would be uncomfortable, etc.) O.K., back to September. She continued to call him almost daily, everytime she would call, she would try to get personal and I'm sure that he did talk a little bit (how else would she have been able to tell him that she didn't want to get into a personal relationship anyway since I'm a phsyco?). He was tired of her calling him. In fact, he was so tired of her calling him, and, I think, him feeling trapped, that he literally threw his cell phone out the window and he refuses to get another one.

When she would call she would always ask him to call her back. He would always repond with I'm not going to call you back, you are going to get fired if you continue talking on the phone like you do. She would respond with she won't. He would respond with you will. He never called her back. In October her calls probably went to every three/four days. Still with her asking him to call her; however, instead of him saying no, he won't call her, he just started to say o.k., but he wouldn't call her. When she would follow up with him the next week, or a few days later, whichever the case may be, she would ask him why he didn't call her, he always responds with I've been busy. In November it was the longest streak of her not calling him. They didn't talk for just shy of four weeks. However, right before he left for the Thanksgiving weekend, she called him, to tell him Happy Thanksgiving. She used work as an excuse, I know/h knows, by asking him how he was doing on supplies. This past month, the calls have been a little more frequent because her company has his personal welder that we bought from her company that isn't working. He is extremelly pissed that it isn't working and so they are working hard at getting it fixed. When I say more frequent I mean, that before they came to pick up the welder, he called her to tell her that they needed to fix it. She called him back and said that since it was working for them when they had it that it would be at his expense. He responded with the threat that he doesn't care, it isn't working for him, has never worked for him, and if they don't fix it, he will do all that he can do to ensure that they never get any more business from his company. Of course, now they are fixing it at their cost, but it still isn't fixed. Two weeks ago she called him just to see how things were doing, he immediately changed the subject and asked him if they have fixed his welder yet. She said no, but that she would find out what was going on with it. Last week she called him to let him know that her office here in town now has his welder and he needed to call the guy in the other town that fixed it to find out all the details. He has yet to hear from her this week relative to when he will get it back and he is pretty upset with the whole situation. He is sure that he probably won't have it back until late next week due to them having to order a torch thing for it; however, I'm just as sure that she will call either today, or tomorrow, using the welder as an excuse just to say have a good weekend and Happy New Year, see if he has any plans, etc. Just an assumption, but one that she has proven right over and over. Who knows, he may get tired of not hearing anything and just call her to see what the status is.

Do I think my H is contributing to her dependency on him? I don't know. I would really like to answer with a resounding "NO," but since I have never listened to their conversations, or been around them I don't honestly know the answer to that. From what I do know, with information given to me by him, I think he is without even realizing it. Why do I think that? Bare with me on my thoughts on this one, they're many .....

1) The major fact is that he will not tell her there will ever be anything between them and he will not disclose the truth to her that he will not call her for anything other than work. Actually I think he is being an a****** to her relative to this and have told him he is being totally unfair to her. His argument, which is the same each time, is that he isn't going to be mean to her and telling her that will just be mean and that eventually she will get the hint and give up. My response to that is that as long as she thinks she has a chance with you, because your not willing to tell her differently than what you originally told her, she isn't going to look for anyone else and if she does find someone, will compare them to you and since she would still be wanting you, find them lacking. I also ask him what he is going to do if she doesn't ever give up. His response is that it isn't as if she is really trying, it is just that she is there being nice and that eventually she will give up because no woman will wait around forever.

2) For the most part I think he is just as abrupt with her as he is with anyone who calls during work hours for personal reasons. Let me explain a little more on this one. His work ethic is very black and white. Really, his life is black or white. There is never an inbetween, or grey area for him. (which always makes what happened that much more confusing to me) Work begins at 7:00; however, he is there at 6:20 and expects everyone else to be there NLT 6:45. If they get there any later than that, even though the clock doesn't start until 7:00, they are late. Personal calls during work? Forget about it! He doesn't believe in them. (which again, makes the fact that during July and August, he and she were talking everyday, sometimes five and six times a day, so hard to accept ... it wasn't something that my H would have ever even thought he would do) Now, I've mentioned that he calls me during the day, which he does. He calls me everyday during his lunch, as he eats in his office at his desk. He calls me everyday before he leaves work ... more so on this one because he doesn't have a cell phone anymore and wants to make sure nothing came up that he needs to do after work, lets me know if he is going anywhere after work, or going home, etc. If I call him during work, or his mother, or his best friend, or even other departments of his company, he always responds when he finds out who is on the other line with a very abrupt "What's up?" To him, it is an interruption of his day and not appreciated. If he wants to talk, he will call you when he is available. He works in a huge shop and if the phone rings and he is away from the office he runs to the phone. I've responded with maybe you should just ignore the phone, to which he responded that usually he does. But sometimes he is expecting a call, or if it is first thing in the morning, around lunch time, or during bad weather, he thinks it could be me as I've had an accident (which wouldn't be uncommon unfortunately ... I kind of like ending up in ditches, LOL), have a flat (also not uncommon as for some reason my tires always attract nails), or something like that. I have questioned him on how he responds when she calls and he has told me that he is just as abrupt with her as he is with anyone; however, he also said that if he hasn't heard from her in two/three weeks he at least gives her the time of day to see why she is calling, but he doesn't allow the call to last more than two/three minutes. He is also quick to point out that he does that for anyone that calls that he hasn't heard from in awhile because it is only being considerate.

3) When she has made comments, i.e., I know you are going to make your marriage work and that you will be happy, but I'm going to go in the back room and cry now; or, when he had to stop by her shop to pick up some parts she told him that it was so hard to see him when she knows she can't really be with him, his response to her was that he can make it so that she never sees him again. Coming from him, it would have been said in a tone of voice that only people extremelly close to him would realize was dead serious. He has told her not to make comments like that anymore and for the most part I think she has abided by his request, but I think she still does it in a way that my H, being a man, does not get.

So with all that said, I think he is not giving her a fair chance because he has never closed it for her. To her, at least in my opinion, it is still open and she still stands a chance. He isn't rude, or mean to her at all, just either changes the subject, or says he has to go. If she asks him to call her back when he gets a chance, he says o.k., but never does. I do see his point that eventually she will get the message and stop. It is just that five months later, she is still around, still calling, still trying. Maybe not in an outright blunt way, but in a small way. So I wonder when will she get the point. Sometimes it makes me extremelly mad, sometimes I can ignore it, sometimes I want to call her and threaten her and tell her all kinds of things, but at the same time, realize that it is more my H's fault than hers because he is unwilling to budge and thinks that he is doing things the right way and fails to see my point of view on it, or really, hers. So in all actuality, my anger should be directed at H, but I guess I feel that since I have chosen to stay with him and make our marriage work, that I can't take it out on him, and since I don't take it out on her, I'm at a loss of who to take my anger out on. Maybe I should take up kick-boxing. It would be a great way to get back in shape and a great way to get out all my frustrations.

Would I be able to handle it if she is my H's ego and the game they play? I don't know. I'll have to think on that one. On one hand I want to say yes, because it would only be a game and if it makes him feel good about himself that someone else finds him attractive then fine. On the other hand b/c the line had been crossed and the fact that she is still waiting I don't think I could. Is that my insecurity talking? Probably. I have never been insecure. I have always been very strong and confident (well, during this marriage). That strong and confident woman that I was went somewhere and I don't know where she went exactly, but I do mean to find her. Talking with you is helping a lot amazingly. And I get what you mean now about becoming friends with his wife ... maybe I'll become friends with the OW.

I do agree with you that I think my OW is afraid of committment. More so b/c of her past relationships with taken men and her comment to my H that all good men are either married, or gay. There are great men out there that are neither, that she just hasn't found, or more likely, that she hasn't looked for. That is one thought that scares me. You know, if she found someone then she would more than likely leave my H alone ... but if her track record is MM/engaged men/boyfriends, then I don't see her finding someone that would make her happy anytime soon.

I don't know if she enjoys torturing other people, or me. I would like to think that my H wouldn't have involved himself with someone that would be of that caliper, but then again, I never would have thought that he would have involved himself in someone else to begin with. I don't even think that she realizes that she is still an issue in my relationship with my H. I know my H told her that he tells me everything. She responded by telling him that he tells me too much. His response is that is our relationship, we tell each other everything, even if it hurts. Her response was that he should learn to keep some things from me. He said he never would because than we wouldn't have a relationship. This was all said probably in August. Maybe she said that b/c she would have agreed to a PA with him even if he didn't leave me and was fishing to see if he would be able to handle it. Maybe she said it for another reason, I don't know. I know that she told him in the very beginning that it bothers her that he is married, but because she cares for him so much, she is willing to ignore the fact that he is married. She also told him that she either wants all of him, or none of him. She has also said that she is willing to just be his friend, but that she is waiting in the corner for her chance. So maybe that is the type of person she is. Since none of us know her as a person, no one can really answer that question even though I wish someone out there had a crystal ball and was able to tell us everything we need to know.

Is H a proud peacock. I don't really think he is; however, I think that maybe having someone else out there wanting him is what his self-esteem needs. His depression and his feeling of self-worth with his disease is a whole thing and ultimately, what I think led to the EA. Not that I don't think I had a part to play in it, because I did as I wasn't as attentive enough to him and didn't realize that he couldn't accept being on the back-burner when our child was born. He makes many comments about him not being a great catch, of how he can't even get disability insurance, or even a new life insurance policy without paying a huge amount of money. He is 6' 6" with brown hair and blue eyes. He's not skinny, his not big. Just right is what I would think. To me, I see women looking at him all the time, it isn't something he sees. I point it out to him, and he disagrees. He doesn't really see why anyone would like him, unless they were after a sugar-daddy. He never has really thought women liked him. He would tell me stories about girls in high-school and the things they would say/do. I would respond that they wanted to date you, he said no because they never said that. It was obvious to me that they wanted him, but even with me pointing it out, it wasn't and still isn't to him. However, some of the meds that he has been on has increased his appetite and he has gained some weight around his middle. He has a huge problem with this weight gain and comments from guys at work really bother him. As an example, yesterday a guy asked him if he was expecting, or if he was just getting bigger. He isn't big at all, believe me. He weighs about 220 and his waist only went from a 33/34 to a 35/36. So maybe it isn't that he gets off on people paying him attention, but maybe his self-esteem gets the boost that it needs from her?

Throw off that switch, huh? Unfortunately, that is what I am trying to do. You are right. We are an unshakable family unit, but the fear is still there. Thanks for your vote of confidence on that regard, and thanks for the laugh ... I would love to answer his phone at work as that would really throw her off guard, I'd have to laugh when I handed him the phone and told him it was her ... I don't think she would know what to do. But, since her calls are never consistent that would be slightly hard to do.

Threaten her? Honestly, I think if she were bluntly trying to get my H I could do that. Kind of like the mother bear with her cubs. And, my H would either have to accept it, or not, at that point I wouldn't care.

I guess I haven't really painted my H in a good light have I? I have never fully explained what he has done, or tried to do to make it right between us. In short, he has asked how he can make me feel secure again, he has admitted that it is his fault that I am where I am now emotionally and has basically done all that he can do and has jumped through all those hoops that I've thrown in his path. The one and only thing that is still in out path is the need for them to still have communication because of work. For all I know, I really can be blowing it out of proportion like my H says when he gets tired of my bringing it up. My H thinks there is nothing going on between them and it is completely over for him. If they didn't have this need to maintain the communication between them because of work then it would be for me as well. And, in that event if she did try calling she wouldn't have the excuse of work and I can say that I would truly expect him to tell her never to call again and honestly believe that he would. I think in a way he is between a rock and a hard spot. He got himself in this situation and he sees no way out. He isn't going to be rude or mean to her because he still wants to get good deals from them and probably has some feelings of gratitude to her as well and therefore, just won't be mean. He is thankful, just as I am, that this actually opened both our eyes and we realized we were both taking each other for granted and not putting into our relationship what we needed. It was like we were both just in this one position and neither of us would budge, because neither of us thought we needed to. His EA with her changed all that. Does he put importance on her at all? Definitely not with me, and I don't really even think he does it to her ... at least not knowingly he doesn't. However, that may be kind of along the same lines of him not knowingly making her depend on him still. Do you think?

H is a very private person and doesn't air personal information to anyone ... even to her. For me to inform people at his work about the EA would destroy his trust in me. His trust in knowing that all his thoughts, feelings, etc. are safe with me. However, I do think that people at his work are aware of "something" between them, even though he doesn't think so. But, then again, he isn't a woman. She used to work for his company, until they fired her. She remains friends with the receptionist for my H's company. While she works at the main office and my H works at his shop, he still see's this girl everyday when he goes up there to get his mail, etc. One week in August my H was sick with a head cold. OW brings tea to the receptionist over the weekend and tells her to make it for H because he is sick. H doesn't think anything of this. I told him that everyone at his work will now know. He said they won't because she promised him she wouldn't tell anyone. I guess I said enough that it put doubt in his mind because he ended up asking her if she told the receptionist. She responded that she would never do that b/c the receptionist is too religious and would then think bad of her. That may be true; however ... women in offices talk. Women in general talk. I'm sure that the receptionist isn't stupid. Additionally, when she played the I Need Help Trick ... she asked my H in August if he had a ladder she could have as she needed to do work at her new house. He told her he would have to get back to her because he didn't know. About two days later she asked another person from his company if he had a ladder she could have. When the guy said yes, she told him to give the ladder to my H and that he would bring it over to her ... then called my H and told him that X was going to give him a ladder to bring her. (He was a little miffed at this due to his reactionary comment of, oh, I guess I didn't give you an answer soon enough, huh?) Well, she expected my H to drop off the ladder at her house when she was there ... he purposly (Thank God!!) did it while she was at work ... he just placed it in her backyard. However, I'm sure that guy she asked for the ladder from wondered what was up with that as well. I know that people at his company know for a fact, which I haven't told my H. I think that he needs to find out other people know on his own. If I tell him, he still won't believe me as I really do think he isn't at a point yet to think anything bad of OW. And, if it is me that tells him, then he would feel that I'm only doing it to be mean and spiteful. How do I know for a fact? My X's brother works for the same company ... my X sent me an email in September asking if I was alright ... he had been hearing some rumors that my H was having an inappropriate relationship with someone from his work. Having people at his work know though would really be no big deal to them ... he is in constuction, so affairs actually run rampant through his company with specific guys, my ex brother-in-law is one of them.

Her company is probably different. She works for a welding supply company that is nationwide, but her office here is only manned by three people, the manager; a guy who does I don't know ... works on welder's I guess, and her. Her job is to handle all the orders and to do all the calls. The manager is only to get involved if there is a major problem, i.e., he got involved with my H regarding making my H happy and agreeing to work on the welder at no cost to H. I have had thoughts of going to her work and telling her specific things in front of her boss, but at the same time think .... she has had four different jobs in four years. I don't think she will be at this job for a long time either. I may be wrong, but it doesn't seem as if she has ever stayed in any job for a long period of time. Believe me, I will be so happy if she quits/gets fired/anything so that she isn't in this position anymore. Could I contribute to that if I wanted? Probably, but I guess I am just too nice on that front. My g/f's all tell me that they would be at her work talking to her boss and getting her fired. I guess since she isn't being extremelly pushy right now, I'm not going to do that. Although, as I said earlier, maybe if she were to start pushing, I probably would be there in an instant and my H would then have to deal with the consequences of him not putting an end to it like he should have in the first place.

I guess I am a little bit wishy washy aren't I? I don't like confrontation, but I'm trying to figure out to confront this whole situation. If I can figure out how to handle this, I'm sure it will help me in any other situation where I have to deal with confrontation ... just getting there is the thing. I realize there were so many factors that were involved that made the EA happen and that it wasn't just her, but the fact that she was interested, made her interest known. Combine all that with his medications, his depression, his thoughts of pushing me away because I deserved better, his thoughts of maybe he is missing out on something, my lack of attention, etc., etc. and then it became an EA that she definitely wanted more and he thought he wanted more.

You went to her work? Oh. She does not see you as a threat. You're hooped. I don't want the MM anymore. I've moved on in my head.

I'm a little lost on this one. I went to her work the first week of August. How does she not see me as a threat? Is it important that she see's me as a threat? Isn't the fact that my H is with me and not her enough to let her know that she played the game but lost? And, what do you mean that I'm hooped? Is the I don't want the MM anymore. I've moved on in my head relative to her, or to you? Sorry ... but I just can't understand what you were meaning here.

I really don't know what a counselor would do. I actually worry that it might make it worse due to the way my H is. I have a strong feeling that the reason he gets so upset is that whenever the subject of her is brought up, he gets upset at himself for doing what he did to me, doing something that he never thought he would do, doing something that he is totally against. He doesn't want any reminders of what he did at all and I think counseling would just bring it to light. Of course, the way he reacts and his current actions of not thinking anything of her calls now lets me know that he can compartmentalize everything that happened. He can talk to her now and not think anything of it because the EA is safely tucked away in a different compartment, not to ever be opened again for him. Unfortunately, I can't compartmentalize it like that and to me, everything associated with her is all related to the EA. That is where I'm thinking that maybe, just maybe it is me blowing this all out of proportion and what I need to do is what you suggest, ignore her. I came to that conclusion yesterday and really think that you are right on that one. For my peace of mind, I need to ignore her and everything that she represents. When I know that my H had to talk to her because of work I will listen, acknowledge it, and then throw it out the window of my head.

I do have one concern there though ...... by doing that, by ignoring her, does that require me to cut off my emotions. I mean, I don't even know how to say this .... does that mean that I would be committing emotional suicide? Does that make sense? I worry that in order to make it so that I don't care anything about her, so that it doesn't bother me when they talk and I don't care if she tries her fishing tactics, that in itself will mean that I don't care about my relationship, my H, or anything. Sorry if that doesn't make sense ... maybe you will understand what I'm trying to say here ... I don't know how to explain it. I want exactly what you picture, relaxing and enjoying and cherishing being in my h's arms. Can I do that and still not care about her? Isn't not caring if someone is trying to get my husband the same thing as not caring what happens to my relationship? There ... that explained what I worry might happen if I just choose to ignore her.

There is a thought in my head about my ex that I cannot shake. He never had sex with any woman before we got together. How will I ever deal with it? He is free to go and get some sex now that we are separated, and he is trying. He just wants sex with another woman. Can I accept that? He is not succeeding, so I am still dealing with the "what if" scenerio in my head.

I can understand what you are saying here ... you know, one of the things my H said to me was that maybe he was just trying to see what he is missing. His meaning was clear ... he was basically asking my permission to sleep with her. He really asked me that!!!!! I think that if he had more experience before me, then he might not have even asked this. But, because he allowed her in, he started thinking about what it would be like with someone else. I guess a guy being a guy ... he started thinking with his other head (sorry to any of you guys out there reading this ... remember this is just my perspective). So, assuming you guys did not break up just b/c he wanted to sleep with another woman (???) then you can't hold anything against him, just as he can't hold anything against you, while you aren't together. That wouldn't be fair to do, would it? Maybe him having sex with another woman, or even him trying and never getting it, will allow him to realize what he had and that he doesn't want to risk losing it. Can you look at it in a different light? Maybe, compare it with what I'm going through now because my H thought he was missing out on something and he wanted to find out if he was .... if your ex finds out now, then it won't be a factor or something he thinks about 10 years down the road?

December 29, 2005

striving to succeed. i have to admit to not following your posts because they are so loooong. it may be unfair, but i am just letting you know. maybe other people feel the same way i do, and you may be missing out on alot of peoples different advice.

December 29, 2005

Newbby - I have to agree with you. They are extremely long. I'm new to this whole forum thing so forgive me. I thought maybe some of the content should be listed under a new thread, but don't really know the right way of doing that. I mean, what do I call it, and would everyone understand the big picture w/o all of the little details? I've also thought of doing private emails to someone like Civalien, since we both are going into great detail, but couldn't figure out how to do it. I follow along great with examples ... if you can give me some tips I'll try to use them. Thank you for your candor!

December 31, 2005

Sami D --

How I found out?...

... I asked if there was someone else, he said does it matter. I responded with what is her name. He said does it matter. I asked X. He didn't say anything, so I knew it was her. Where I thought it was her? Because of the lunch thing which he paid for and in July I remembered that he talked about her more often. So that is how I found out.

---

We have never lied to one another. Keeping some feelings to ourselves obviously, but never lied. It was him telling me that she told him to tell me that she'll always be waiting. And it is him telling me that he knows she is asking for herself, not for work. And it is him telling me that while he doesn't want to be with her and never will, doesn't even think about her like that, that the thought is there for him that if he ever wants to talk to her about anything that she will be willing to be there for him. You may be right on the mark on this ... you think? If this is the case, then all my thoughts about OW really are unnecessary correct? Is there a way that I can figure it out if this is the case?

Just reading this part, I thought... oh... isn't he just trying to tell you what he needs..? Wasn't that all about him needing some more attention all that time..? But... how much attention is selfish..? How much should he have been helping YOU while you were pregnant and bringing up his children..? HOW can someone outside of this know how selfish he is being..? It's hard to know, even with so much information, similar acts can mean very different things in different people.

So... just my response to this.

Then...

One comment H made to me about three months ago (which I have done, at least as far as he knows ... what goes on in my mind on a daily basis is a different matter which I've tried to control, but haven't learned how to do so yet), is he said that if I put as much energy into our relationship as I seem to in what happened, then we would never have any problems.

Then he goes and says all that... ffs... what about HIM putting something into it. I just don't know. I just don't like his little comments, that's all.

December 31, 2005

Newbby - I have to agree with you. They are extremely long. I'm new to this whole forum thing so forgive me. I thought maybe some of the content should be listed under a new thread, but don't really know the right way of doing that. I mean, what do I call it, and would everyone understand the big picture w/o all of the little details? I've also thought of doing private emails to someone like Civalien, since we both are going into great detail, but couldn't figure out how to do it. I follow along great with examples ... if you can give me some tips I'll try to use them. Thank you for your candor!

sorry sts i didnt see this.

i agree with you sometimes the details definetly help. i was just pointing out that sometimes people dont read the really long posts as much, especially if they have missed alot of the thread. i dont really have any tips! maybe posting smaller bits of information at a time. that way it is more digestible and lots more people might respond.

December 31, 2005

Must admit that I've not been on the forum for a week and read the latest post but nothing since... But sometimes it really helps to vent!

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EA - How to handle OW's continued fishing calls/comments to my H

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