amerikajin Posted December 26, 2005 Posted December 26, 2005 I dispute the idea that we are born to cheat. I do, however, believe we are born to fall out of love. That's why I have to wonder about marriages based on romantic love. True, there are romances that last a lifetime...but the overwhelming majority of them don't. The percentage of men who cheat on their spouses? Anywhere from 30-60 percent. Conservatively, let's say it's likely somewhere around 45 percent or almost half. The percentage of women who cheat on their husbands? Anywhere from 20-40 percent. Conservatively, about 3 in 10. But the number of people who fall out of love and end up either getting a divorce or living in a crap marriage? I would imagine that it's quite high. I think this is what the poster is getting at here, although I think he improperly framed the discussion as an inevitable desire to cheat, which I don't believe. I still think there's possibly a majority of people out there who can at least say "You know what, this just isn't working out for me...but I'll end this the right way." I think what the original poster is getting at here is the real question of how we should approach marriage. We lament it when someone strays in a marriage. The emotional pain of being abandoned and replaced by someone else is too much for most of us to bear, and the anguish is understandable and natural. The anger that results from that hurt is equally comprehensible. And yet at the end of the day, we are confronted with the ugly reality that the majority of couples who fall in love and plan a life together are no longer in love after ten years, and a super majority of couples fit this description after fifteen or twenty. They may love each other as people and admire characteristics about each other...but in the end, the individuals they married are nowhere to be found in most cases. How to we address this ugly reality? Labelling us as sinners, shaming us and what not obviously hasn't worked in the millennia since we've resorted to this time-honored tactic. So if that doesn't work, what does? My guess is, people have to be realistic about what marriage is, and what it's likely to be. Maybe things like arranged marriages aren't necessarily bad ideas. Or maybe making it a termed agreement, renewable every 5 years or so? Dunno...but like I said, the labels, pillory treatment, scarlet letter A stuff isn't working. Nor are lawsuits...the only ones benefitting there are the lawyers. Oh yeah, and by 'us' I don't mean that I've cheated, I just mean 'us' collectively as the human race.
Outcast Posted December 26, 2005 Posted December 26, 2005 I do, however, believe we are born to fall out of love. That's why I have to wonder about marriages based on romantic love. 'Romantic love' is the pop culture ideal but not something that's really sustainable, nor should it be. Unfortunately, people think they have 'fallen out of love' when the butterflies stop and, rather than accepting the newer, quieter, deeper love that replaces it, they go off in search of a new source of 'romantic love'. Here's one of the very best articles I've ever read on the nature of love http://www.relationshipsandlove.com/Companionate_And_Romantic_Love.htm
SamandBran Posted December 27, 2005 Posted December 27, 2005 I understand what Shadow is saying about what men are supposed to be more likely to do. And/or women. But, just for the record, I love my husband and he loves me and I feel like, even if there is not always going to be that "romantic love" or mind-blowing sex, the fact that we were friends first and have a deep respect for each other, that should "obstain" us from being willing to hurt each other enough by cheating. I believe that people who cheat are extremely selfish, shallow individuals who are by no means thinking of their significant other. If you all both honor your marriage then the potentially deceitful person would not be able to do what they are thinking of doing with a clear conscious. There are those select few that are different and like to think of their spouse having sex with others but the majority of the people that I know consider cheating the ULTIMATE betrayal. It's the prime reason why people kill or divorce and so many other bad things. With this being said, whether or not people were "created" to cheat or not, the fact still stands that if either of you are cheating in your relationship, then whomever is cheating needs to own up to their weakness and leave. Cheating on your spouse will ultimately do more harm than good. And how deep that harm will go, who knows.... And in the end, the damage that is caused, the broken family, lost home, hurt spouse, maybe even a lost life; you have to wonder.... Was it worth it?
Owl Posted December 27, 2005 Posted December 27, 2005 Until we learn to genetically remove these demons from our DNA; and there are serious ethical questions that come along with that; don't be suprised when one of your loved ones becomes consumed by there desires. Good or bad. Had me rolling on the floor with this one...so now the only way for someone to avoid cheating is to be genetically altered to remove the urge to cheat??? I think you've lost me with the intent of your post again. Is your intent here to give an explanation on why cheating occurs? Is it intended to convince us not to be hurt or upset because our spouses have (or might) cheat? Is it to give you a clear conscience on why YOU have cheated? I agree that everyone has the POTENTIAL to cheat. But by no means does that mean that the majority WILL cheat. Nor does it justify it if they DO cheat. We all have the potential to commit murder. Does that mean most of us WILL? Or does it justify murder if we DO commit it? Again, if you know that it's POSSIBLE for your spouse to cheat, how should that change your behavior or expectations of them? Are you suggesting that we should re-vamp the institution of marriage to allow for cheating? I don't think so...not even touching on the religious views of this, the cultural weight behind it is enormous as well. Not to mention the fact that nearly every single person who gets married does so with the belief that their spouse will remain faithful to them...and that they will remain faithful to their spouse. Your posts do sound strikingly similar to another poster that was here several months ago. Even to the specific phrases that you use. Personally, I see no practical use or application of anything you've said so far in this thread. Enlighten me here.
Greg25 Posted December 31, 2005 Posted December 31, 2005 I have looked into the 'evolutionary psychology' of cheating myself, and things are quite different from what you are saying. It is true many species of creature engage in what we might call 'cheating.' The reason basically lies with maximising reproductive success in terms of propogating your genes. However, for most creatures, this is not a concious choice but mere instinctual behaviour caused by their genes. It is also true 'cheating' occurs in higher mammals, including primates and in humans, and no doubt has done so for millions of years. Again, the reason for 'cheating' appears to be related to ensuring you get the best genes from a potential partner. This explains some aspects of human reproductive behaviour, such as the often irrational pairing of people, affairs based on physical lust, male predilection for younger women, and the way human women are always 'in heat.' (Most other animals have a limited time period for estrus). Hormones like testosterone and oxytocin and oestrogen also play a complicated role in sex and sexual attraction, by binding us emotionally and sexually to a partner. However, the effect of these hormones isn't so much to encourage us to cheat, as to want to have sex and intimacy with someone. Overlaying the biology of course are our social and moral beliefs, which influence our behaviour. Strongly built into all human societies is the notion of loyalty, to your parents, your tribe, and your sexual partner. Human beings are individuals who biologically, are driven to selfishly maximise their chances of evolutionary survival by spreading their genes as wide as they can. But human beings are also social and political animals, and co-operation and altruism (i.e. faithfulness and loyalty) are as critical to our species as 'cheating', because if no-one trusted another person enough to have sex with them, the species would die out, and the human social co-operation which has been essential to our success as a species would die out. So biologically, we are not doomed to only be cheaters. We also are concious beings with the power of free will. Because humans are 'doomed to be free' (to quote Sartre) we always have a choice, to carry out or not carry out a course of action. Nature, as many evolutionists themselves like to point out, doesn't tell humans how they ought to behave. Looking at the way things behave in the natural world does help us shed light on ourselves and our origins, since we still bear the 'stamp of our lowly origin' (to quote Darwin). But our moral codes assume we have a free choice, to choose between what is the good, and what isn't the good. We don't have to misbehave because birds or fish or chimps engage in infidelity. Personally I don't buy the argument the findings of evolutionary biology justify cheating in relationships. Cheating occurs for all sorts of complicated reasons, and I think cheating in the human sphere is the result of several factors working together, rather than a single 'atomic' factor. 1
lindya Posted December 31, 2005 Posted December 31, 2005 We also are concious beings with the power of free will. Because humans are 'doomed to be free' (to quote Sartre) we always have a choice, to carry out or not carry out a course of action. Nature, as many evolutionists themselves like to point out, doesn't tell humans how they ought to behave. That is up to us. Well stated. I think nature does influence social behaviour. We are, however, highly sophisticated and evolved animals. Most of us have the ability to think analytically, and form personal ethics that may sometimes differ from the ones that society pressurises us to adopt. Nature can be an overwhelming force that often gets the better of humanity in terms of natural disasters. In some situations, our natural instincts will take over - eg if someone was trying to kill me and I was unable to escape, I would do whatever I could to save myself, regardless of whether they died as a result. It wouldn't even be a case of "is this ethical for me to do?" It would simply be a matter of my survival instinct taking over. In normal, non-emergency situations, there is time and scope to apply one's own personal ethics. If the person has ethics but chooses to depart from them for selfish reasons, then I guess that's one of the symptoms of a weak personality. Whether or not it means that person is closer to nature than is the person who holds onto their ethics, I don't know. Perhaps most people out there do cheat on their partners regularly. Who knows? Studies indicate that most people have an IQ lower than 111....so what "most people do" doesn't necessarily provide the greatest guidance for an intelligent person to develop and refine his or her personal belief system.
Toni_no12002 Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 Here's one of the very best articles I've ever read on the nature of love http://www.relationshipsandlove.com/Companionate_And_Romantic_Love.htm Thats quite a good article makes sense worries me alittle about the jelousy thing though lol. So basically people end up cheating because its only romantic love?am i getting it right lol
newbby Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 'Romantic love' is the pop culture ideal but not something that's really sustainable, nor should it be. Unfortunately, people think they have 'fallen out of love' when the butterflies stop and, rather than accepting the newer, quieter, deeper love that replaces it, they go off in search of a new source of 'romantic love'. Here's one of the very best articles I've ever read on the nature of love http://www.relationshipsandlove.com/Companionate_And_Romantic_Love.htm good article. it sounds a lot like eric fromms art of loving too. is it possible to find companionate love and add romance to that though? in my experience and its probably just a personal defect, i find it really difficult to feel romantic for somebody i know too well and i find it almost impossible to try and have a relationship with them.
Guest2 Posted February 4, 2006 Posted February 4, 2006 altruism (i.e. faithfulness and loyalty) are as critical to our species as 'cheating', because if no-one trusted another person enough to have sex with them, the species would die out I can imagine many primitive women were raped and didn't have the "choice". If there isn't much trust in relationships NOW, I can doubt there was much then either especially with limited or no language.
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