MM seeking advice

[newbby]

i think what you have decided is to be alone? nc with ow, and separate from wife?

as far as working things out logically, i do think that is a good way to do things, as long as you are not denying your own feelings about the other parties. however, giving yourself enough time to work this out, without dragging anybody else along with your confusion is definetly best, for everybody and of course ultimately yourself aswell, because thats the way things usually work out if you take that route.

the ow's feelings? all i can say, is from my own experience. it is a difficult position to be in, because even if she would want to be with you in an exclusive relationship, she is unl;ikely to put that kind of pressure on you. if you are already single you are likely to get a more honest response, and this is what you have already decided to do.

also giving yourself time away from your marriage to see if it is a greater loss than you had suspected it would be.

i do think you are going about things very sensibly.

[forestlake]

i think what you have decided is to be alone? nc with ow, and separate from wife?

as far as working things out logically, i do think that is a good way to do things, as long as you are not denying your own feelings about the other parties. however, giving yourself enough time to work this out, without dragging anybody else along with your confusion is definetly best, for everybody and of course ultimately yourself aswell, because thats the way things usually work out if you take that route.

the ow's feelings? all i can say, is from my own experience. it is a difficult position to be in, because even if she would want to be with you in an exclusive relationship, she is unl;ikely to put that kind of pressure on you. if you are already single you are likely to get a more honest response, and this is what you have already decided to do.

also giving yourself time away from your marriage to see if it is a greater loss than you had suspected it would be.

i do think you are going about things very sensibly.

 

The biggest problem in all this is that I have to deny my own feelings. I am crazy about this women and have not been shy in expressing this fact. When she asked what about her is it that I like, I say I like it all, her face, her hair, her politics, her attitude, the whole combination. I somehow don't think there is a way to go with your feelings and do the right thing in a compatible way in situations like mine. Maybe as a single guy but lets be serious, that is going to be a long (months to years) time from now with all that is usually involved.

Heart vs Head. Little vs. Big. She did teach me a word, Bashert, which means fated in stronger terms. This is what she thought of us early in the relationship. It seems a little unusual for me to have considered a divorce when I thought our problems may have been manageable. I only realized the depth of it after meeting someone else but if I were really being true to my family, I guess I would have never gotten to know her and fate drives by without even a pause. As a interesting side note, I have a picture of my great grandfather with his 4 wives in the old country (Central Asia). Different time, different place, but still seemingly compatible for all parties concerned. Please, I am not condoning this type of behavior especially in this society, but it begs to argue that we have forums and boards like this because polygyney and polyandrony are perhaps deeper issues than we would like to admit.

[newbby]

it isnt going to help you or anyone else to be beating yourself up.

it is a difficult thing, what you are doing now just proves that. you love somebody else, but are in no position to act on it. in order to be in that position you must wait for up to a year. it is not easy.

still though you have not stated your aim.

is the aim now to work on your marriage? or is the aim to be in a position that you can have a relationship with ow? either one of these is fine. it is how one goes about things that causes the most pain. i think the way that you are doing things is good. however you still seem unclear about the aim.

you say you are doing nc with ow. does she know why? perhaps it might be better to just explain things a little bit.

how do you feel about your marriage now? do you still think it is possible to resolve things there?

feelings are also a big factor in this and denying them does not help. the reason is: if you love ow, and no longer love wife, but decide to stay married just because it is the "right" thing to do, your feelings are going to surface some way or another.

be logical but dont deny feelings.

[forestlake]

it isnt going to help you or anyone else to be beating yourself up.

it is a difficult thing, what you are doing now just proves that. you love somebody else, but are in no position to act on it. in order to be in that position you must wait for up to a year. it is not easy.

still though you have not stated your aim.

is the aim now to work on your marriage? or is the aim to be in a position that you can have a relationship with ow? either one of these is fine. it is how one goes about things that causes the most pain. i think the way that you are doing things is good. however you still seem unclear about the aim.

you say you are doing nc with ow. does she know why? perhaps it might be better to just explain things a little bit.

how do you feel about your marriage now? do you still think it is possible to resolve things there?

feelings are also a big factor in this and denying them does not help. the reason is: if you love ow, and no longer love wife, but decide to stay married just because it is the "right" thing to do, your feelings are going to surface some way or another.

be logical but dont deny feelings.

 

i have had a chance to read some of your posts and i think you are pretty spot on about a lot of things. i do think the process of divorce, especially in a complicated situation as my own will take a lot longer than a year. i guess i could ask the OW to wait until that resolves but lets say that she ends up not being the one. I have not used the time because i have been NC, and she may have been waiting all this time for naught. somehow i can't imaging asking someone that i care so dearly to make a sacrifice like this. this almost seems worst than keeping her as an OW while things work out and having her trust that my intentions are good. i don't imagine anyone seriously thinking that they are that saintly, i surely am not. i don't think i could possibly have an aim in this, as you so eloquent stated, she is more in control of at least the initial parts of this relationship. i may have to have the mature head and be the one to put the brakes on but it couldn't have happened without her. i know this, she knows this and therefore any aim on my part may be imaginary at best, self deceiving at worst, the very thing i am trying to work around. with regards to my marriage, i think the writing is on the wall, my wife and i are seeing how to best salvage a situation with children. fortunately money is not going to be a big issue. i feel better about stepping away than i could have imagined even 48 hours ago. sure it hurts, it hurts like hell not responding to a person who as of a few days ago knew where i was 24 hours a day and vice versa. i don't understand how i could logically for her, my W and C best interest do anything differently. sure my mind says differently but we don't used these linked threads to think illogically. the variable is the thing that i really don't have control over. what she wants to do. if she really pushes, that is really going to be tough. i have told her something that may be truer as the the nights grow longer. fight for what you really want, beg for what you really need, be indifferent to things that don't matter. i hope my situation does settle as nicely as yours.

[newbby]

when i said to explain things a little i did not mean to ask her to wait. you cannot do that obviously. i thought from what you said that you had just cut off contact with no explanation at all. i'm sorry.

i do think that you are doing the best thing. you seem self aware enough to know that it is impossible to make any promises of anything, and anything you ask her of her feelings implies a commitment that neither of you can be sure of.

sometimes though, you have to take a little risk, although perhaps the timing is not good at this stage.

[Sami_D]

forestlake, when I read your posts I get the impression that while you're talking logic, you're actually quite afraid of not being in control of the situation. It's clear that you need to know what your OW thinks and wants in this, but for some reason you haven't asked her that... and it seems (it's not clear) that you've now gone NC on her without tellling her what you are doing or why you're doing it.

 

What I meant about approaching things with logic and theory is that life doesn't often work that way. That's a lesson I learnt myself the hard way Even if you take your emotions or needs out of the equation for the sake of argument (and let's face it, that is illogical, since the affair began because of emotions and needs, no..?), you are still left with other people's feelings, and your own, unexpected actions which will result from surpressed desires.

 

Now, I don't have another means of approaching a problem like yours (or mine, for that matter). But what I'm saying is that expecting everything to work out OK, or there to be an optimal logical solution is unrealistic. It may be that you will have to accept ragged edges, upset, disappointment and who knows what else.

 

You also asked how I would deal with a situation in order to work out 'the best result for all'. I don't. I'm only human. I think that in a situation like yours (and mine), as long as the children are properly considered and catered for, the other people may just have to accept a possibly sub-optimal outcome. That's how life is.

[OldEurope]

ForestLake, if you feel your life is going to be more honestly fulfilled with this new other woman in your life, then go with her. Case closed. My impression of your marriage, by the way, is that you seem somewhat indifferent about it, or should I say, quite emotionally removed from it. That cannot continue in any case.

 

I will say, my most humble opinion of course, that "dependency" issues, such as severe financial ones, trouble me. And at 52, as this lady is, it is not as if we are 18 and taking our first swings at bat in life. The White Knights of more chivalrous days were out to protect "a woman's honor", not to pay her visa card. I don't know for how long you can remain dazzled by someone who just doesn't make moves to improve such a situation (I of course am only going by the sense I have of your emails). It seems to me wariness, exasperation would set in--and later, alarm bells.

 

FREEZING in Florence,

 

OE

[forestlake]

forestlake, when I read your posts I get the impression that while you're talking logic, you're actually quite afraid of not being in control of the situation. It's clear that you need to know what your OW thinks and wants in this, but for some reason you haven't asked her that... and it seems (it's not clear) that you've now gone NC on her without tellling her what you are doing or why you're doing it.

 

What I meant about approaching things with logic and theory is that life doesn't often work that way. That's a lesson I learnt myself the hard way Even if you take your emotions or needs out of the equation for the sake of argument (and let's face it, that is illogical, since the affair began because of emotions and needs, no..?), you are still left with other people's feelings, and your own, unexpected actions which will result from surpressed desires.

 

Now, I don't have another means of approaching a problem like yours (or mine, for that matter). But what I'm saying is that expecting everything to work out OK, or there to be an optimal logical solution is unrealistic. It may be that you will have to accept ragged edges, upset, disappointment and who knows what else.

 

You also asked how I would deal with a situation in order to work out 'the best result for all'. I don't. I'm only human. I think that in a situation like yours (and mine), as long as the children are properly considered and catered for, the other people may just have to accept a possibly sub-optimal outcome. That's how life is.

 

I am currently on vacation with my children, no wife, no nannies just me and my boys. Here to clear my head, body and soul and I believe that in an idyllic mountain setting looking at the snow covered mountains, which my little ones are learning to ski for the first time in their life, I have reached an settling of sorts. Prior to coming here, I asked my OW to minimize contact for the next week. This was not because I was on break, that would never have stopped me in the past, but because I knew deep down that I was not being reasonable. Wanting without knowing what, needing without knowing what. Just becoming more and more unhappy with what I knew to be and am sure of a poorly thought out end game. So yes, I have discussed with my OW about a NC as well as the reasons for it. It is something that I tried to do in the past and it is perhaps that I actually have the nerve and will to go through with it that has changed.

The reasons for doing it are evolving but how could anyone as confused as I am and was ever hope to do the right things for the right reasons. Perhaps just doing the right thing is better than 90 percent of cases.

What is her impression of the reason for this lack of communication, no self loving person with a supply of pride would freely run into a situation like this. She knew I was married, she knew my visible place in the community; but I liked, she liked and we moved together. Prior to this, as of August of this year, I can say that I was the model choir boy. I was the friend that made sure everyone got home okay. At the strip club I would pay for the other guy's dances and politely decline my own. At the casino trips with the whores galore, I would help sponsor the party but never partook. It wasn't some gallantry or badge of honor that made me do it. It just seemed the right thing at that time. My situation and personal situation is obviously complex and could use several reams of paper but I believe this is a reasonably accurate description. When I changed, I had many women available and I had purely physical relationships with a few. I recall having an interesting time with a committed lesbian in a relationship who used me to get out of one mess and into another. None of these moved me enough to consider anything drastic with my W that hadn't already started until I met the OW. I was honest with her, I told her about the women in my life and who I initially thought wanted me be involved with so that I wouldn't be doing anything with her for novelty sake. After it became clear to me that it did bother her I stopped. When I told her that she made me get in to these relationships she has this air of disbelief but I think she was rightfullly wary. She has a boyfriend that she cares for but she knows not to be the one and their stagnant relationship is going or gone by the wayside. Those are her details that I do not try to control and I have no right to ask about so they are accurate but impressions nonetheless. Initially she asked me what I had in my mind with regards to our future and I answered, whatever happens. I truly meant that I was williing to go wherever it took me with the only limitation being the care, welfare and attention that I provide to my children. She understood the children part and respected it. The other answer she didn't like. Now you have to understand, I have been blindered all these years with regards to how people in these situations think and act and I thought pure but mindless honesty was the best policy. I live in a place that recently was quoted to require an average of over 20 dollars per hour in wages in order to afford the average place to live. There is no way that anyone, who does not have a skill or wants to work doing physical labor can reasonably make it. They can struggle I am sure but it would be difficult and as an employer I truly know this. I help her like I help a lot of other people and things, usually anonymously. I helped her before I even think there was an emotional attachment and with my comparatively vast resources, changing slightly the direction of the wind and making things happen truly doesn't require a lot of effort. Do I really know where she stands, no. Does she doubt where I think she stands, absolutely. I am crazy about her but it will take a huge leap from me and her. She knows that if she is identified as the one who made me leave my W, it will be scarlet bad mark in this small, and aren't they all, community. Frankly I don't think she really wants the responsibility of a dependent boucing guy, and rightfully so. I want her to be the one but am not so foolish to believe that there is any way in such a short period of time anyone can be sure. I have been moved to make her the only one with whom I am intimate with. I have been behind her in every step, but it is going to require a huge leap that I believe she is familiar with and extremely wary. I am moving up this learning curve pretty fast, and most remarkably with the help of this site. I knew that logic alone would not carry me, part of the reason I believe I love this woman is that I have chosen her interests over mines, desire over what I normally would I would have considered to be right. This is not the emotion of the chase, I was a single guy before and I remember that emotion. No this is a little more raw, perhaps related to a midlife crisis, but a reason doesn't change what has and continued to happen. So could I be even more direct with all parties concerned, perhaps. But a physical separation and separate vacations with my W, letting the OW know how important she is to me, acting upon that thought and going through the the NC because I think it to be right is about as much as I think I am capable at this time. Now old world, does she have issues, at 52, single, having to struggle to survive, yes. Is she trying, yes. Is she that much worse than most of the single people trying to make it in this expensive place, no. She freely admits that her financial and life decisions have placed her where she is. She has few marketable skills except a dogged determination with things that are important to her. She tells me that she never accepts things from men because they usually want something in return. She says she accept it from me because I do it so freely and easily. She also sees how I tip and give money away to those who need it more than I and she sees how truly I don't have money as my driving factor in life. I now understand when she was asking what we see as our future, she did not want an honest answer. I have learned that on this forum, when people have asked me what my goal, aim was they really didn't want to what I honestly had in my mind. Her and I think the appropriate question was whether I had a honorable, good goal in mind before I undertook this relationship. My marital status was therefore the question, and not some freefloating what are you thinking about that I as a typical clueless guy assumed. Now why am I going on like this. For one, I sleep only 3 hours a night and I have time while my boys are asleep. More importantly, and I do mean this, sometimes a multitude of biased, anonymous and mostly honest opinions can drive home point that I find more difficult to talk or argue around. I cannot confide in my friends, colleagues at this point. Long soliloquoy about what most see as a cut and dry issue. Divorce my wife, make as sure as I can that this is the woman I want to spend time with and until I am reasonably sure let her know why and stay out of touch with her, take care of my children and go forth. Part logic, mostly compassion for the needs and feeling of others, a duty that I had performed so easily until late summer. Subordinating my personal emotions and feelings is however the key to make sure the greatest good for the most people is achieved. The greatest good for my illogical mind is to run to the OW and bath in the Bashert. A bit of a ramble but the sun is up and duty calls. Thanks for your thoughts and words. I have believed in asking questions only if I was interested in listening to the answer and I believe I have found some solid footing based on the responses I have received and experiences of others in similar positions. I wonder if any others have benefits from this rather public diary. I would certainly hope that to be the case.

[Sami_D]

Well, that is a very long post with no paragraph breaks. I didn't get very far down it before I read:

 

"no self loving person with a supply of pride would freely run into a situation like this"

 

And yet again you're bashing your OW. Personally, I'd like to see you leave her alone.

 

And I would suggest that unless you can break your own thoughts down into something more concise (and include some paragraph breaks) then people are going to lose interest in something that is already looking a LITTLE too self-masturbatory (to me)

[newbby]

no self loving person with a supply of pride would freely run into a situation like this.

sounds like love and compassion to me

[forestlake]

sounds like love and compassion to me

interesting that the comments are on that one sentence. what i meant was that a self respecting person with pride would not have gone into the relationship knowing what was in store. i and i assume the OW did not have that in mind when we first met and decided to become friends.

now for the diatribe, i was in a flow, a self expressive mode, that is extremely unusual for someone usually so constipated. i guess wanting to be clear and at the same time getting something off my chest is no excuse for being a boor. thank you all and i appreciate your thoughts and words.

[newbby]

What is her impression of the reason for this lack of communication, no self loving person with a supply of pride would freely run into a situation like this. She knew I was married, she knew my visible place in the community; but I liked, she liked and we moved together.

it does sound as though you are speaking specifically of her.

i think the comment still irks, because it lacks some understanding of her as a person, and this is the woman you say you love.

what if she would say of you "no decent and compassionate person would cheat on their spouse"? does that show that she knows and understands you or that she is painting you with a stereotype?

as for the "diatribe", i dont have any problem with it, and whatever helps you to make sense of things and deal with the emotions is good. the only thing is that it is hard for people to respond to because alot of it is difficult to make sense of. so if you really want other peoples advice and opinions then you might want to make your writing style a little easier to follow.

[Owl]

OK...first off. Forestlake...puncuation is a wonderful thing. It helps to improve communication so that people can clearly understand what you are saying. You might consider it so that you'll get more responses. Reading through your posts was sheer torture.

 

Second...at no point in ANY of this do I see you taking your wife's feelings about this entire situation into account. Have you confessed the affair to her? Do you intend to continue on hiding this from her? Does SHE get to have any say in what happens with your marriage at all? It IS half her marriage at least...does she get the chance to decide if she wants you after all of this?

 

It sounds to me as though you're convinced that BOTH women are going to be willing to do whatever YOU decide here. It's all YOUR choice that matters in this...and they'll simply go along with whatever you decide. (of course, OW knows that you're married...but I'm not clear if your W knows that you're cheating with OW?)

 

Here's my advice.

 

Tell the wife the truth. End the lies. Make your choice where YOU want to be...with the wife, or with the OW. And then start taking action to make that choice happen.

 

Notice I told you to tell your wife FIRST...because you owe her your honesty, if not your devotion. This gives HER some input into this as well...which is only fair...she's got as much stake in the marriage as you do...she can choose whether she feels the marriage is salvageable or not as well.

 

And realize that you simply CANNOT (or at least SHOULD NOT) keep both women in your life. If THIS is what you choose to do, there's no good advice anyone can give you, other than the reminder that NO secret lasts forever.

 

And realize that no matter what choice you make...neither woman is likely to trust you implicitly once this is all said and done.

[newbby]

with respect owl. if he wants to finish the marriage, his wife cant MAKE him stay. it is nearly always only ever one persons decision to end a relationship.

[forestlake]

OK...first off. Forestlake...puncuation is a wonderful thing. It helps to improve communication so that people can clearly understand what you are saying. You might consider it so that you'll get more responses. Reading through your posts was sheer torture.

 

Second...at no point in ANY of this do I see you taking your wife's feelings about this entire situation into account. Have you confessed the affair to her? Do you intend to continue on hiding this from her? Does SHE get to have any say in what happens with your marriage at all? It IS half her marriage at least...does she get the chance to decide if she wants you after all of this?

 

It sounds to me as though you're convinced that BOTH women are going to be willing to do whatever YOU decide here. It's all YOUR choice that matters in this...and they'll simply go along with whatever you decide. (of course, OW knows that you're married...but I'm not clear if your W knows that you're cheating with OW?)

 

Here's my advice.

 

Tell the wife the truth. End the lies. Make your choice where YOU want to be...with the wife, or with the OW. And then start taking action to make that choice happen.

 

Notice I told you to tell your wife FIRST...because you owe her your honesty, if not your devotion. This gives HER some input into this as well...which is only fair...she's got as much stake in the marriage as you do...she can choose whether she feels the marriage is salvageable or not as well.

 

And realize that you simply CANNOT (or at least SHOULD NOT) keep both women in your life. If THIS is what you choose to do, there's no good advice anyone can give you, other than the reminder that NO secret lasts forever.

 

And realize that no matter what choice you make...neither woman is likely to trust you implicitly once this is all said and done.

 

I must apologize for offending you on several levels. That takes talent, the stuff that I wish I didn't have. At some point, restating or clarifying things sounds whiney. With that sign clear enough for even me to see I thank you all and wish you all the best this holiday season.

[Owl]

Forest-

 

Interestingly enough, you didn't offend me. You still haven't. I'm simply offering my advice to you as I see it...and am interested in your take on things. Hence all of my questions.

 

My post was intended as an eye opener for you...because it appears that you're wearing some blinders yourself my friend. You see some possibilities...but I don't see anything to indicate that you've seen the full picture as of yet.

 

Keep posting, don't worry about offending me or anyone else...I'm a big boy...if you offend me, I'm fully capable of simply not opening your thread anymore. And if I offend you, simply let me know and I'll no longer post to your thread.

 

Newbby-

Actually, I wasn't envisioning his wife forcing him to stay...in truth, I was more picturing her choosing to end her marriage if she decides to. Right now, she has NO choices in front of her, because she doesn't have any of the pertinent information.

[newbby]

except they are already seperated, so how much more info does she really need?

[Sami_D]

except they are already seperated, so how much more info does she really need?

 

Are they separated? He was talking about 'perhaps' leaving his W for OW. I got the impression that he was on holiday with his kids but not W. And some suggestion that the W was off 'making arrangements' for herself (with another man). But it was very difficult to sort the facts out of his account.

[newbby]

well it is difficult to make much sense of it, thats for sure, but he said that he and his wife are seperated. hmmm well i just read again, and i think you are correct, they are only seperated for vacation. well, i apologise. thats the second thing i thought i saw in this thread that turned out to be wrong. it is really hard to know which woman he is talking about, sometimes.