forestlake Posted December 19, 2005 Posted December 19, 2005 I am new to this site but it seems perhaps approrpriate for my current state. I am 45 have been married for 10 years, children 4 and 9, successful business, mutually having difficulties with marriage although the situation may be otherwise close to optimal for both of us (business and children). Additional details can be provided, just ask. I was not one for sexual adventures while single or divorced but have recently met a woman who has my world spinning. I have been in an unusual state of mind for the past year and my wife is understanding. I believe my wife has also been taking care in her own world with her vacations which is reasonable for me. The circumstance that i met this woman was an innocuous meeting at a beach which led to a few other coincidental but frequent meetings with time. She is 6 years my senior, lived a much fuller yet unmarried life, and is less stable with the functional parts of life but may be more comfortable with her own life thoughts. To paraphrase, in the last 3 months, i have spent more time with her by phone, email, face to face than any woman with the exception of my wife. At times, she and I know each others whereabout 24 hours per day. We have had sex twice, under compromised circumstances. I know that she needs assistance with her life. We live in an area with an extremely high cost of living and her living situation is spartan to be kind, she has few formal skills that would allow her to be able likely make ends meet. When I met her, I believe she was close to the edge, financially. She has a boyfriend, kind of, that she may see once per week, that I would assume take priority over me. I do care for her dearly. I do support her in many ways, financially, mentally and I usually feel good doing it. Now the problem. I feel a responsibility for her. I know without me, she would be in a terrible position in weeks to months. I would like to do this in a way that doesn't make me feel like she is either a whore or sponge but I don't seem to know how. If I cannot work this out in my head, it will be a problem. I suppose I would just walk away but if just doesn't seem right. I suppose if she would make her position about me clearer I could react appropriately but I know she has her own demons to deal with also. Would I consider leaving my wife for her, perhaps, would I support her for life so she would never have to have a financial worry, possibly, the money would not be the issue. Could I have a simpler relationship(s) that would make my easier, definitely. Do I want to, even with the option in front of me I have chosen not. This is probably a typical situation for most MM situations but as others I think it is a one of a kind. Typical dude. Bottom line, when I see or hear her, I feel happy. What does she feel, inconsistently good and bad. Open for recommendations and advice, but I have to go forward, pull back because my present position is killing me emotionally. I think a woman's opinion would likely be more helpful but I am open to well intentioned thoughts. Thanks in advance for your time.
Sami_D Posted December 19, 2005 Posted December 19, 2005 Hello forestlake. Well, there are a lot of questions here, and a lot of uncertainties on your part. You're not even sure if she has another "boyfriend", or if he is more or less 'important' to her than you? If you're not sure where you stand with her, then why not ask her? It seems that you're wondering whether she might be agreeable with being a kind of 'kept woman'... but you're not sure whether that's acceptable to her or not. At the same time, you seem to have some odd thoughts and feelings about doing that, in case YOU begin to think of her as a 'whore or a sponge' You really do sound confused. So in addition to asking her some questions about where you stand with her, you should probably ask yourself some questions about why you're doing this, and your attitude to her in general.
LucreziaBorgia Posted December 19, 2005 Posted December 19, 2005 It sounds like you have the 'white knight' syndrome - a need to feel needed, and a need to feel like you are 'saving' someone who will in turn give you the feelings of worth that you may feel are missing in a life with a wife who isn't as needy for what you have to offer. I would say that you want to feel appreciated, without feeling obligated - and this new woman seemed to provide you with a balance of that - but you wonder when that scale will tip and you'll find yourself with an emotional and financial black hole on your hands. She is the way she is for a reason, and that's because people have enabled her to be this way for so long that it has become her survival method. If you want to help her, then really help her to help herself. Don't throw money down a hole by 'supporting' her - invest in an education for her, or some professional help if you have to, anything to help her get her own feet underneath herself so that she can have a fair shot at life without having to rely on some MM to do it. Let her know that she makes some sort of forward movement, or you will walk away from her. If she wants to help herself and not continue to be enabled, she'll go for it. Unfortunately, that will ultimately lead to her not needing you anymore and probably bouncing you (given her inconsistant emotional state right now), but what do you want? Do you want what works for your ego (being needed and trying to save someone), or what will truly help this woman even if it is at your own expense? Honestly, if I had to give an option I'd say to walk away - this woman isn't likely to change. She was this way before you, and will be this way after you and no doubt you won't be the last guy (MM or otherwise) to give her what she thinks she wants. I would say that you and she are mutually using each other - you for ego needs, and her for support - and that spark of 'happiness' there that you feel together probably isn't enough to sustain and certainly not enough to throw away your family, your history and your legacy away on. For three months your relationship has been successful only in the context of an affair. You are in the wishful thinking/pedistal/idealized stage right now. I have no doubt that if the affair were to transition to an actual relationship that it would fail miserably. I simply don't see her living up to any expectations and I see you being sorely disappointed when you look back at what you traded your family in for (should you decide to take that option). If you want to leave your marriage, then consider it, and consider it for a good long 'no contact' period from OW. Go to marriage counseling if you need to, just give yourself time away from OW to think objectively about this - just don't let this be your exit affair - end the marriage if you need to because you don't want to be married, not because you want to bounce from one woman to the next. You'll need lots of time and space right now before you'll want to consider playing white knight to what amounts to an emotional and financial charity case living off your system. Tell OW that you need to think things through and ask her for 'no contact' for a certain time period - she survived before you, she'll survive this too.
Author forestlake Posted December 19, 2005 Author Posted December 19, 2005 thank you sami d. I do believe you are correct on most counts. I have a confusion that is difficult to fully articulate. I believe it is the usual is this right/wrong, am i being reasonable/unreasonable, am asking for too much/not enough. Based on the limited facts that I had, the decision I made is what it is. Not necessarily good the seemingly the best at the time. Having said that, how do I feel about her, I really like her on many levels. My previous definition of love was responsibility (stuffy but absolute). This is something different, very different than I have ever experienced Could I imagine life without her, yes. Could I imagine a life with her, yes. I asked her and she said she wasn't sure. I know she needs and accepts the support but is that fair to me, her. If I thought that I should not be giving her support, I would not do it. When you give anything to anyone, there is always the fear that what you get in return may be in exchange for the support. I think I am reasonable in articulating these thoughts however sinister it may sound. I have been in touch with her daily since I have met her. Maybe detaching a bit would be appropriate, but what message would that give. How do I get answers when I have difficulty even formulating the appropriate questions? Many questions, few "corrrect" answers, maybe less thinking but that is what got me to where I am now. I was having quite a difficult time working this through all by myself and finding the site has been extremely helpful. Even writing about this publicly gives it a sense of permanance that I have not been able to do by myself. So once again, thanks, if any specific info would be of I do appreciate your thoughts.
Author forestlake Posted December 19, 2005 Author Posted December 19, 2005 Ms. Borgia, I think you may be correct. I don't know that I feel the need to change her, I am comfortable providing her with the financial needs that working would likely not provide, but would this be fair. She is 52, I don't think I was ever thinking that I could change her, and I like her for what she is not what I was making her to be. I spend twice what I provide for her for various anonymous assistance/charitable purposes and justify a lot of what I do in this context. If being a knight that bad. Do you think this as a basis for a relationship at this late age is still as bad a problem. Walking away is something that I thought of doing but it doesn't obviously benefit me, her, children, estranged wife..Thanks for your thoughts.
LucreziaBorgia Posted December 19, 2005 Posted December 19, 2005 Being a knight isn't bad - as long as you know the difference between slaying dragons and chasing windmills.
Author forestlake Posted December 19, 2005 Author Posted December 19, 2005 You are very right. Clarity has to start with me and perhaps I can be rewarded with something that I will not regret. I should let go but not offensively, (in order to get something that I want). I do thank you for your time and thoughts.
LucreziaBorgia Posted December 19, 2005 Posted December 19, 2005 Yes, you are right - there is no need to be offensive. Just tell her calmly and gently that you need some time to find some clarity and ask her to grant you that 'no contact'. If you have to, ask her if she needs anything before you make that break and then consider it a parting (even if 'for now') gesture. You can walk away and there isn't anything that says you can't walk back but for now you need to walk alone to figure some things out. Consider it a solitary quest for the grail, to put it in knight terms.
veronese Posted December 19, 2005 Posted December 19, 2005 Ask yourself if you are happy to offer your support to her, without any strings? I sense the problem is within you, you're mature enough to know that everything comes at a price.
Author forestlake Posted December 19, 2005 Author Posted December 19, 2005 Interestingly, not only am I happy to support her without strings, as I have, I would not have it any other way. In other words, if I felt like I was buying her I would feel terrible, regardless of whether it was or was not true. Having said that, I sense that I am involuntarily doing it regardless of my true intent. One of the things that she does like about me and we kid about is that I truly have a small care of money. I am fortunate to have been born with skills that allow me to make money relatively easily and her skills are not as marketable. I look at it in terms of love and companionship but her interests may be support which may or not be divergent issues. I think the gist of the messages and perhaps a similar theme is that a decision of intent has to be made prior to initiating a relationship. That is the price of doing it when married, as perhaps opposed to when single. I think the world of this woman and perhaps am in the position that requires me to make decisions. Perhaps I have to be mature enough to think it through despite the spontaneity. I just wonder if there ever is a win win situation in these sorts of situations. Maybe it is just one of those urban legends. Thanks for your comments.
newbby Posted December 19, 2005 Posted December 19, 2005 i cant quite work out what you are asking. are you asking in a roundabout way, whether anybody thinks she will be happy to be there for you long term (by this i mean, to continue relations) without you needing to leave marriage etc? so you are saying, considering that she has her life made easier in this financial way, is she likely to be seeing this as a good thing. you dont want to talk about these things to her, i.e "if i continue to support you in this way, yet stay married, can we make it a kind of commitment?", because there is a danger it becomes a prostitute type situation. you may view her this way if she accepts. you are caught between fearing that you cannot really expect a commitment, unless you are offering something in return, or making a deal that has the potential to ruin things. is this the problem?
Author forestlake Posted December 19, 2005 Author Posted December 19, 2005 i cant quite work out what you are asking. are you asking in a roundabout way, whether anybody thinks she will be happy to be there for you long term (by this i mean, to continue relations) without you needing to leave marriage etc? so you are saying, considering that she has her life made easier in this financial way, is she likely to be seeing this as a good thing. you dont want to talk about these things to her, i.e "if i continue to support you in this way, yet stay married, can we make it a kind of commitment?", because there is a danger it becomes a prostitute type situation. you may view her this way if she accepts. you are caught between fearing that you cannot really expect a commitment, unless you are offering something in return, or making a deal that has the potential to ruin things. is this the problem? My inability to be clear is likely a reflection of my inner turmoil and for that I apologize. Reading the replies as well as the other posts from other OWs has given me a real perspective on what I previously looked at as a reasonable position. Could I leave my wife, yes. Would I leave her for this woman, possibly. Do I think it would work out, I really don't know. Would I be willing to take a chance, yes, depending a great deal on the other woman. Is it fair to put someone I care so deeply about in this unattractive, possibly hateful OW position, seemingly not. I think that is going to be the biggest issue. I love this woman in that I am sure. I care for her and would hate to cause her pain and grief. I think I am doing this by the very nature of the MM OW relationship. Asking her may not be in her or my best interest because it is an unfair situation for her. It amazes me that something so seemingly cut and dry took so long for me to realize. I think I justified it by saying that the financial, emotional support was outweighing the OW situation. I also thought that a 52 year old woman would perhaps have a better sense of what she does or doesn't want and therefore my own house is the only one I had to keep in order. Sitting here in a chalet with my two boys looking at the raining mountains in the Sierras sure is a funny way to figure things out, but then early is better than late is better than never. I will keep reading while the inevitable avalanche lurks inside me, ready to hit me when I am at my weakest. One interesting thought, do you think it would be in any way helpful for the OW to see these posts? I intuitively know that this is a stupid question but seeing that I have lost perspective, it seems reasonable for me to ask.
newbby Posted December 19, 2005 Posted December 19, 2005 helpful for your ow? possibly. so you have decided to leave your marriage? you want to ask the ow, if she is prepared to make a serious go of things?
Author forestlake Posted December 19, 2005 Author Posted December 19, 2005 One other thing, I know I mentioned it before but I have been separated (sleeping in different bed, houses etc) prior to consumating this affair. I don't know if that makes it better or worse but my wife does understand that our problems are deep and I as well as she are exploring other options as time passes to perhaps the inevitable.
whichwayisup Posted December 19, 2005 Posted December 19, 2005 my wife does understand that our problems are deep and I as well as she are exploring other options What are the options? Marriage counselling? If that is the case, how can you even attempt MC when you're in the midst of an affair? Isn't that just setting your wife up for a fall? If you want to see if the marriage has anything left, the only fair thing to do is be with JUST your wife. Let go of the OW. If you feel that you can't work things out with your wife, then divorce her, let her find someone who will love only her and not someone who can't decide what he wants. I don't mean to sound harsh, but what you're doing to both women is unfair. The OW is probably deep inlove with you. Are you willing to jump out of marriage and then get into another relationship so fast too? That is something else to consider. You will be losing ALOT and I'm betting those feeligns/emotions won't hit until (if) you leave. Read some other posts by OW here, and read afew posts in the infidelity section. Do a search of DazednConfused, OWL and Thumbingmyway...Read their situations. Could give you some insight, an understanding of the full impact of what you're doing.
Author forestlake Posted December 19, 2005 Author Posted December 19, 2005 helpful for your ow? possibly. so you have decided to leave your marriage? you want to ask the ow, if she is prepared to make a serious go of things? I appreciate you spending your time with someone else's issues. I have not yet decided to leave, but I believe openly discussing the situation with my wife and physically separating from one's spouse is a real and not imaginary step. I had my reluctances and I am sure from the tone of my posts my concern of the position I am placing my OW in is more important than I could have ever imagined. If I am the mature one in this relationship, perhaps the one in control, maybe no good could come from asking this question. If the answer is no, I am hurt. If the answer is yes, she gets hurt. NC as the only viable alternative. Do I always have to have such good intentions before getting into any relationship? I can say I am a hell of a lot better informed about this than I would have thought possible. Interestingly, I actually did research on Game Theory vonNeumann et al to help determine the path of best outcomes. Weird I know, but trying in my own way. Aiyaya
newbby Posted December 19, 2005 Posted December 19, 2005 maybe you should take some time out from both situations to gain some clarity. if you and your wife are already headed down that road, she will understand this.
newbby Posted December 19, 2005 Posted December 19, 2005 game theory. doing what is best for the most people?
Author forestlake Posted December 19, 2005 Author Posted December 19, 2005 What are the options? Marriage counselling? If that is the case, how can you even attempt MC when you're in the midst of an affair? Isn't that just setting your wife up for a fall? If you want to see if the marriage has anything left, the only fair thing to do is be with JUST your wife. Let go of the OW. If you feel that you can't work things out with your wife, then divorce her, let her find someone who will love only her and not someone who can't decide what he wants. I don't mean to sound harsh, but what you're doing to both women is unfair. The OW is probably deep inlove with you. Are you willing to jump out of marriage and then get into another relationship so fast too? That is something else to consider. You will be losing ALOT and I'm betting those feeligns/emotions won't hit until (if) you leave. Read some other posts by OW here, and read afew posts in the infidelity section. Do a search of DazednConfused, OWL and Thumbingmyway...Read their situations. Could give you some insight, an understanding of the full impact of what you're doing. I am starting to see the light. Using the time that it take to fully decide and actually get a divorce to be by myself, work and children may be good for me and possibly just desserts.
Author forestlake Posted December 19, 2005 Author Posted December 19, 2005 maybe you should take some time out from both situations to gain some clarity. if you and your wife are already headed down that road, she will understand this. I think I have come to that conclusion with all your assistance. I am separated, on separate vacations as we speak and ready to stop communication with the OW. The first part I decided on months ago, the second part today. Thanks
Author forestlake Posted December 19, 2005 Author Posted December 19, 2005 game theory. doing what is best for the most people? You guys might actually get a kick out of this. Game theory is not a rationalization but a way of seeing the most natural solutions to many defined problems. Defining the variables (sex, support, money) is difficult but once done can help to see where the ball usually falls. My conclusion was that my support of her and her relationship with me was the best win/win possibility. Looking out for one's self interests however, usually takes you to support without relations or relations without support. Reading the posts, I think that expecting both to do what is immediately in their best interest, and giving up the best in all world situations is life, real bloody, unfair but real life. That is the usual conclusion of most game theory exercises. Funny I thought that support was my most important asset but leaving my wife and being available is probably the most pivotal variable.
Sami_D Posted December 20, 2005 Posted December 20, 2005 I think you're trying to solve the problem using your head, theories, logic, and so on... and I don't know that these situations are amenable to that kind of analysis. However, kudos to you for trying... at least you're not prepared to just let it drag on 'forever' just because that's seemingly easier. I still think you should ask your OW... what does she want..? It's not unheard of for the OW to NOT ultimately want M with the MM. Perhaps, at her age, she's settled in her way of life, and doesn't want someone to 'take care' of her, be the boss, support her financially, make a deal... 1
Author forestlake Posted December 20, 2005 Author Posted December 20, 2005 I think you're trying to solve the problem using your head, theories, logic, and so on... and I don't know that these situations are amenable to that kind of analysis. However, kudos to you for trying... at least you're not prepared to just let it drag on 'forever' just because that's seemingly easier. I still think you should ask your OW... what does she want..? It's not unheard of for the OW to NOT ultimately want M with the MM. Perhaps, at her age, she's settled in her way of life, and doesn't want someone to 'take care' of her, be the boss, support her financially, make a deal... Thanks for you comments, I did find using emotion and desire to approach my problem only got me deeper and not necessarily better for all parties concerned. I am curious what means you use to help delineate the best course of action for all? I once again wonder if the question of what she wants would truly be helpful, doesn't want to be with MM I am hurt, if she does want to be with me and I am being unfair by "letting it drag on 'forever'." Why ask the question if I have to be mature and sensible enough to know the answer, detatching is best. Believe me she is no wilting flower, she gives probably better than she takes. She will tell me that I am an ass, appropriately, without hesitation. The fact that she lets me know of her financial situation when I ask, gives me her account numbers for financial transfers, and thanks me after the assistance shows me that it is something the could use and may need. As far as being her boss and changing her way of life, I doubt it but than again, it has not yet been an issue with me. The NC which I have already started is getting a reaction of sorts. Her emails are asking me for responses as opposed to statements that don't require replies. My new worry is if it involunatarily and incorrectly (for her) pushes her to really wanting to make a go of it. I have been changing my mindset to one of letting her go for all parties concerned. It is a situation something I have yet had to deal with and certainly would be a tougher scenario to deny myself.
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