SmoochieFace Posted December 16, 2005 Posted December 16, 2005 Got news for you, bub. Lots of folks marry people they started out as friends with. Exactly. I really do not understand why this concept is so difficult to comprehend.
loony Posted December 16, 2005 Posted December 16, 2005 Loony, Don't get me started on my opinions....I can p*ss a lot of people. Even though I am an introvert, there have been times where I have been VERY vocal in my opinions. I am not saying that disagreeing with someone makes you a bad boy. But if you really knew me, it would seem badboyish. (I am very, very quiet-but start debating about us foreign policy, or the crappy music on the air waves, or the food at a new restaurant, and I WILL give you an opinion worth hearing. (I know a lot of people despise the political hack shows on cable tv, but I love em. I like being an intellectual bad boy. All I am saying is that I am very opinionated. But that is as far as my bad-boyishness goes... One of my friends was/is one of the best speakers in the debating club and he just loved to argue with me till I want to kick his ass, but that just doesn't make him a really self-confident person. In a way he is, but in a way he isn't. I have trouble speaking in front of people, he doesn't. But he's also the kind of person who will complain that women like jerks - that doesn't speak of much self-confidence. He had a crush on me and that's basically the reason we're not that much in contact anymore. I can only tell it to you from a woman's point of view, that expressing one's opinion has absolutely nothing badboyish about it and it doesn't really impress me that much. Sometimes when it becomes an ego thing for someone to win an argument at any cost it can turn me quite off. What attracted me to other people was not their bad boy attitude. I liked other guys more, because they didn't bother to wonder if they were worthy of me or not, they just went for it. My friend had put me on a pedestal and that's a bad start for a relationship. He once said, he first thought I was dumb, then he thought I was highly intelligent, then he thought I was average, then he thought whatever... He analyzes this sh*t too much.
noclobber Posted December 16, 2005 Posted December 16, 2005 Noclobber: Speaking from a woman's point of view and only my experience (not any fact to cite, blah, blah, blah), I think the above scenario happens because the woman will go out with Guy 1, simply because she doesn't know anything about him and wants to get to know him. For her, Guy 2 is someone she already knows. In her mind, he might hold a friend status. A friend status changes how you feel romantically. She could have thought about dating Guy 2, but he previously gave her the impression that he wasn't interested . . . or he gave her NO impression in regard to interest. She may have felt that she is just THERE in his life, like one of his buddies, so then gave up on the thought of dating him. Why embarrass herself when she is preceiving disinterest? As far as the comment that a man should get other men's opinions on why nice guys finish last is in error, IMHO. I would think that anyone - men or women - don't have a clue as to what they did right to make a relationship work. So, to me, it would make more sense to ask women what makes them like/dislike a nice guy. It has a lot to do with chemistry, personality, etc., etc. I would think. Not only that, but men can't claim to know how women think about particular guys, just as women can't claim to know how men think about particular women. Fair enough.. i completely agree about ur analysis on guy2 situation. but i have seen this (and personally experienced) when a guy cud not ask out a woman because she was in a relationship. this was exactly my case. i cudn't ask out this woman because she had a long distance boyfriend.. but we used to hang a lot and have a wonderful time... and one fine day she said that she broke up with her LDR boyfriend... 2 weeks later i asked her out knowing that she is now single... she refused and said "we started as friends and now u want to date me. how can that happen?" - my a$$ !!! and guess what this woman's age is? she is freakin 29 years old.. say something now Lil Honey!
loony Posted December 16, 2005 Posted December 16, 2005 Blue16 How many more times do I have to say this? I BLEW MY CHANCES. I was ineffectual. The route *"I"* went led me directly to the Friendzone. That was all I was getting at. I wasn't being true to myself by keeping my feelings hidden. I loved her and should have let her known sooner. But I didn't. Again, it was my FAULT. I learned my lesson......and I learned it well.... MrB I think people see that you react to Alphamales brainwashing and that's why they repeat themselves so often.
noclobber Posted December 16, 2005 Posted December 16, 2005 Shallow, superficial, and... yes... young women in general (not all of course) - not the right *type* for a relationship based on friendship. the woman that gave me the "we started as friends so we can't date" crap is 29 years old and works as a Product Manager in a big firm.... huh what can i say!!!
loony Posted December 16, 2005 Posted December 16, 2005 Fair enough.. i completely agree about ur analysis on guy2 situation. but i have seen this (and personally experienced) when a guy cud not ask out a woman because she was in a relationship. this was exactly my case. i cudn't ask out this woman because she had a long distance boyfriend.. but we used to hang a lot and have a wonderful time... and one fine day she said that she broke up with her LDR boyfriend... 2 weeks later i asked her out knowing that she is now single... she refused and said "we started as friends and now u want to date me. how can that happen?" - my a$$ !!! and guess what this woman's age is? she is freakin 29 years old.. say something now Lil Honey! I'm not Lil Honey, but I know your case. I think she just liked you as a friend. While she was still in the relationship she evaluated your potential for a relationship and came to the conclusion that this wasn't what she wanted, she wanted to stay friends with you. When you asked her out, she gave you the 'let's just be friends' line. If you had asked her out before, she might have gone out with you on a couple of dates and then after getting to know you better she might have said, "Well, I think it might be better if we were just friends." Even if you had scored a date with her, because she didn't know you well, after a couple of dates she would have still put you in the friends zone. Nothing will prevent you from being put in the friends zone if she doesn't feel attracted to you, whether you are friends with her first or whether she got to know you after couple of dates.
alphamale Posted December 16, 2005 Posted December 16, 2005 I think people see that you react to Alphamales brainwashing and that's why they repeat themselves so often. i may be washing the brains but LOONEY you are at the end of the assembly line drying them off with a semi-wet rag
SmoochieFace Posted December 16, 2005 Posted December 16, 2005 the woman that gave me the "we started as friends so we can't date" crap is 29 years old and works as a Product Manager in a big firm.... huh what can i say!!! Well, she is probably still immature. It's not totally out of the realm of possibility for 29 y/o women to be lacking in the maturity department.
loony Posted December 16, 2005 Posted December 16, 2005 the woman that gave me the "we started as friends so we can't date" crap is 29 years old and works as a Product Manager in a big firm.... huh what can i say!!! People will give you excuses all the time. Just accept that she's probably not mature enough to have a serious relationship.
noclobber Posted December 16, 2005 Posted December 16, 2005 It's not totally out of the realm of possibility for 29 y/o women to be lacking in the maturity department. hahahaha... i completely agree with you! woo hoo
loony Posted December 16, 2005 Posted December 16, 2005 Well, she is probably still immature. It's not totally out of the realm of possibility for 29 y/o women to be lacking in the maturity department. It's also not quite mature to freak out when a woman is not coming clean with you. Be a man and just accept it. It's not the greatest thing to do, but why get upset about it? It shows that you're dealing well with your negative emotions and that turns people off. I find it a good test of character and maturity to see how someone reacts to rejection. People who don't take it well might want to check their self-esteem and their expectations of people in life a bit. (Not that I handle rejection well, ok? I know though I should learn to handle it more calmly and not take things so personally)
blue16 Posted December 16, 2005 Posted December 16, 2005 Blue16 How many more times do I have to say this? I BLEW MY CHANCES. I was ineffectual. The route *"I"* went led me directly to the Friendzone. That was all I was getting at. I wasn't being true to myself by keeping my feelings hidden. I loved her and should have let her known sooner. But I didn't. Again, it was my FAULT. I learned my lesson......and I learned it well.... MrB Just a simple miscommunication between us. The way I interpretted your original response was that you proclaiming that you were going the friends route out of choice - but it's obvious you realize that that wasn't the case. No hard feelings. ...people remembering 'back to high school' aren't exactly awash in experience shut up
noclobber Posted December 16, 2005 Posted December 16, 2005 I'm not Lil Honey, but I know your case. I think she just liked you as a friend. While she was still in the relationship she evaluated your potential for a relationship and came to the conclusion that this wasn't what she wanted, she wanted to stay friends with you. When you asked her out, she gave you the 'let's just be friends' line. If you had asked her out before, she might have gone out with you on a couple of dates and then after getting to know you better she might have said, "Well, I think it might be better if we were just friends." Even if you had scored a date with her, because she didn't know you well, after a couple of dates she would have still put you in the friends zone. Nothing will prevent you from being put in the friends zone if she doesn't feel attracted to you, whether you are friends with her friends with her first or get to know her better when you have a couple of dates with her. Loony i agree with what u say. it sounds reasonable. but u shud also consider something else... this person gave me the vibes that she was interested.. otherwise i wudn't have asked her out in the first place. tell me how many women say they like a guy only as friends but want to travel ONLY with them everyday, have lunch ONLY with them everyday, hang out at every given opportunity, make plans to travel together, and most importantly do all of this even after giving the "i can't date you b'cos u r my friend" speech. she just doesn't leave me.. i know that women value their male friends but i dunno whether they actually chase them like this.. i want to hear ur opinion on this person.. if this is unusual i will dismiss this as an isolated case but if this is the norm then as a woman u got to give some explanations about why women run after their guy friends like this.
lilmoma1973 Posted December 16, 2005 Posted December 16, 2005 Damn. I always thought it was nice girls finish last. Yeah me too JS17!!!
alphamale Posted December 16, 2005 Posted December 16, 2005 Yeah me too JS17!!! yeah nice gurls finish last too, at least in teh dating game. I've had a number of "nice girls" interested in me over the years and they did not even get the time of day from me. Either they were too boring or not feminine enough or did not wear the right clothes or did not excite me for whatever reason. It works both ways and for both sexes...
loony Posted December 16, 2005 Posted December 16, 2005 Noclobber, you take this messed up high-maintenance girl and make her the representative of all women? I think your problem is that you don't have that much contact with women and now you're experiencing a culture where most women have quite a lot of experience with guys and dating, that will make it even harder for you. You need to learn more about them. Often a lot of things go unsaid and people will somehow assume that you know what or how they mean it. If you want to have a better communication, you have to talk with them and ask them directly. If she's not able to give you a clear answer, then I would recommend you to stay away from her.
noclobber Posted December 16, 2005 Posted December 16, 2005 Noclobber, you take this messed up high-maintenance girl and make her the representative of all women? I think your problem is that you don't have that much contact with women and now you're experiencing a culture where most women have quite a lot of experience with guys and dating, that will make it even harder for you. You need to learn more about them. Often a lot of things go unsaid and people will somehow assume that you know what or how they mean it. If you want to have a better communication, you have to talk with them and ask them directly. If she's not able to give you a clear answer, then I would recommend you to stay away from her. i do come from a culture where there is not too much interaction between men and women but i have lived in the USA for 7 yrs now and have interacted with women a lot. i do know about them. plz understand that i am not considering this one woman as a representative of all American women. i clearly said that if u can understand why she is behaving the way she is plz help me comprehend it. my only question is why does she say that she likes me only as a friend but does all the things that i had outlined. i am just trying to understand whether this is a typical female attitude towards her guy friends or not.. that's it.. i don't mean any offence..
loony Posted December 16, 2005 Posted December 16, 2005 i do come from a culture where there is not too much interaction between men and women but i have lived in the USA for 7 yrs now and have interacted with women a lot. i do know about them. plz understand that i am not considering this one woman as a representative of all American women. i clearly said that if u can understand why she is behaving the way she is plz help me comprehend it. my only question is why does she say that she likes me only as a friend but does all the things that i had outlined. i am just trying to understand whether this is a typical female attitude towards her guy friends or not.. that's it.. i don't mean any offence.. I think she's just not very mature. Other guys probably wouldn't have stayed with her for such a long time. I'm not sure what I should say. Some people are a little bit more messed up than others. Others don't have the courage to give a direct answer. She likes hanging out with you, she likes doing things with you, but she doesn't feel attracted to you and she might not want to lose all this by offending you and telling you that she's not interested in you as a boyfriend. I think the most important thing is is to realize that she's not giving you positive signals to bring things to the next level, so I would just leave it at this. You're not going to achieve more by pushing her or bugging her for an explanation why she doesn't feel attracted to you. My experience is, when I'm having doubts if someone is interested in me or not, he usually isn't. When I get this feeling of desperation or neediness then I know, I'm not heading anywhere. If things were going well, then I would just feel a bit of anxiety and nervousness. Now I'm usually out when I feel I'm becoming needy, it means that my object of desire is not trying very hard to keep me or not giving off enough positive signals and that's why I feel so nervous. A positive anxiety feels differently. You should try to develop a similar sense, it helps to prevent getting too deeply involved with people who are not interested in you. It took me a couple of heartbreaks though to become smarter...
noclobber Posted December 16, 2005 Posted December 16, 2005 Thanks Loony! Also from ur previous post: Nothing will prevent you from being put in the friends zone if she doesn't feel attracted to you, whether you are friends with her first or whether she got to know you after couple of dates. is by far the best thing that I have come across in LS. I think this one statement puts to rest several confusions. It all really boils down to whether the person in question is attracted to you or not in the first place. But then again what makes a woman get attracted to a man is a huge question in itself. That's where this whole 'the bad guy can trigger that attraction' comes into play... whatever... its just upto the other person.
Author Enygmatic Posted December 17, 2005 Author Posted December 17, 2005 I think a reason why women tend to put these "nice" guys into the friends zone is that they have intuitively figured out that these guys are whiners and just waiting for an opportunity to unleash this wild beast on them. Roar. You think you were unjustly put into the friends zone? - No way, it's because we have a sixth sense and can look into the future. Actually ist just some kind of test. A false nice guy will start whining. A truly nice guy will accept it and try to make it better next time. The fact that you're whining just confirms our suspicion that you are not going to make it. Interesting comment loony...soo in order to be a nice guy you need to let the girl you commited to cheat on you....interesting. So should I say "go ahead, keep it in the low, screw as many friends as you want, anyway Im a nice guy so if I want to prove it I'll let you do whatever you want, turn back and leave....like a loser"..... Interesting
Outcast Posted December 17, 2005 Posted December 17, 2005 yeah nice gurls finish last too, at least in teh dating game. I've had a number of "nice girls" interested in me over the years and they did not even get the time of day from me. I'm sure they all retired to nunneries But then again what makes a woman get attracted to a man is a huge question in itself. That's where this whole 'the bad guy can trigger that attraction' comes into play.. Girls who have watched all the movies where the 'bad boy' is actually a sweetheart with a heart of gold will buy the 'bad boy' myth until they've been burned a few times. Then they learn their lessons and look for a nice guy. they like a guy only as friends but want to travel ONLY with them everyday, have lunch ONLY with them everyday, hang out at every given opportunity, make plans to travel together, and most importantly do all of this even after giving the "i can't date you b'cos u r my friend" speech. she just doesn't leave me.. i know that women value their male friends but i dunno whether they actually chase them like this.. She was treating you exactly like she would a girlfriend. she refused and said "we started as friends and now u want to date me. how can that happen?" - my a$$ !!! and guess what this woman's age is? she is freakin 29 years old.. Maybe she was sure you had an understanding that dating was out of the question and so was surprised you changed your mind.
Author Enygmatic Posted December 17, 2005 Author Posted December 17, 2005 Are you positive it's not because you have an overblown ego and think you are better then every one else? I had an ex who was the classic "nice guy", but his ego was unberable. Always about him. him him him him... His friends made jokes about it. You know that country song that says it's all about you. They inserted his name into it. He was a super nice guy. He just thought he was superior to everyone. Personally, I hated it. I'd rather find a midget with some modesty and balance, then be with that guy. Wow that was a low kick, it kinda hurt but it is true in some way. I admit that I have a big ego but my ascertion was not made out of anger, it's the reality. I always respected my girlfriend, I always rerpected other people relationships which he didnt do. What can you expect from someone that doesnt respect a relationship of one year, especially when its a happy one. I go to college and I'm a goal oriented person, he goes to high school and is always cutting class and procrastinating. He doesnt have manners.. I do because they are part of my principles. He just wants to do her, I loved her. If we talk about the physical part...I dont consider myself a really handsome guy but everybody tells me that I'm way better that this other guy..so no.... my ego has nothing to do with the ascertion I made...at least not this time
mrB2006 Posted December 17, 2005 Posted December 17, 2005 blue16: No hard feelings.... Yeah, I did not want to be in the FZ. That was not my objective. However, I was led there by my inablility to grow a backbone and let her know my feelings. If I had done that, then who knows where we could have gone....But you can't live life in the past. I will take what I know now and apply to future relationships. I will see her next week. I am still a little bit nervous. But it looks like that ship sailed long ago.... mrB
Author Enygmatic Posted December 17, 2005 Author Posted December 17, 2005 yeah that's true Mrb2006. We need to learn from our experiences. When we finish school the clasrooms are still out there and it's up to us to learn everyday's lesson. It sounds kinda nice in theory but thats the only way to be happy...no matter how hard life kicked us. I heard that the more mistakes and the more bad experiences you have, the more wise you'll get. I hope it's like that
Craig Posted December 17, 2005 Posted December 17, 2005 Aren't nice guys and bad boys after the same thing? Control. A classic nice guy wants to control the relationship by overdoing the so called nice things all the while sacrificing himself. A classic bad boy wants to control the relationship by overdoing the so called bad things all the while sacrificing himself. In the end don't both wind up alone? In both cases there is no relationship only the facade of a relationship. For any relationship to stand the test of time a reasonable amount of honesty and respect is going to have to be present. Both the bad boy and the nice guy are in the weak position in the relationship and are dependent upon the woman to continue the relationship. Nice guys hang on to false hope and bad guys hang false hope out as a carrot to extend the "relationship." How could anyone respect someone like that? And so the end comes as it always does. Yes bad boys and nice guys do end "relationships" but they know they are in positions of weakness and wouldn't it be attractive to be the one to end the relationship in an attempt to preserve the illusion of strength and control? I think bad boys and nice guys have a lot in common.
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