Getting out of the "nice guy" syndrome

[Outcast]

women like the door opening and such but they not only want to detect qualities within a man that will gaurantee respect and compatability --but also a sort of wildness about the man that tells them that if they are ever in trouble, he will leap in and defend her with the passion and single-mindedness of an agressive animal.

 

There are probably some women that feel that way but you can't generalize to all women.

 

I think that one of the most important things when dating a woman is respect.

 

I, too, think that respect is critical - on both parts. However I do often see people posting or hear them saying they love someone and then go on to list a whole bunch of things that makes it sound as though they don't respect them at all. So I don't know.

 

Here's a 'nice guy' situation. I was out this evening and encountered a fellow I'd met before. He seems very good-natured and, indeed, very very nice. And he's not unattractive. But here's the thing. I absolutely need to have a companion who gives good head. Not the lower extremity head - the actual head. It's vital that someone in my life at least match me that way - and surpassing me is even better if it's cool with that person. And this fellow isn't someone who could do that.

 

Now what could anyone possibly say to someone? 'You're a nice guy but you're lacking the intellectual agility I'm after'? Of course not!!! He seems to be a lovely person. So don't think people telling you you're nice is a putdown. It's usually not the problem - something else is.

 

Are you going to start the thread or shall I?

 

Beat you both to it!

[Woggle]

I know this is not the pc thing to say but I think society neutered men to much and women in general don't seem to find it attractive. I look at all the men I know that are in happy relationships and they are the manly man types. They are good men who will give you the shirt off your back but they are no pushovers. Many women will not admit it but they miss men like that. My girlfriend told me I am such a breath of fresh air because I am a man that still has my balls. I also hear other women ask where all the real men are at. At the same I have asked where all the real women are at but I am a real man who has found a real woman so that is for others to worry about. I think that men need to rediscover our manhood without trying to hold on to fake neanderthal machismo which really just mask insecurity. Most women are not into the mestrosexual neutered man.

[lindya]

Now what could anyone possibly say to someone? 'You're a nice guy but you're lacking the intellectual agility I'm after'?

 

I think that's often more it:

 

Nice he is, but Tim's so dim

That I just can't face blowing him.

[Outcast]

I know this is not the pc thing to say but I think society neutered men to much and women in general don't seem to find it attractive. I look at all the men I know that are in happy relationships and they are the manly man types. They are good men who will give you the shirt off your back but they are no pushovers.

 

Disagree on all counts. I worked with a whole bunch of happily married men. Every one of 'em a modern guy - not afraid to be sensitive but also knew their maleness. It's not so much being 'manly' or 'womanly' that's the problem. I think it's confidence that's missing and I can't figure out why so many people are insecure.

 

Maybe it's that the last couple of generations have had so much handed them on platters by their parents and been protected from harm so much that they haven't learned through overcoming adversity. They may be insecure and lacking in confidence because they have no history of achievement on which to base their confidence.

[mrB2006]

I agree with everything that has been posted.

 

outcast: I agree with you that it probably comes down to insecurity-at least for me. But I have quite a few achievements under my belt: I am a college graduate, I will be going into a program that very few Americans get chosen for, and I have a somewhat successful position at work. So I don't know if its a lack of achievements or 'fear'.

 

However, I do agree with the others on the whole neutered thing. It is evident in American society.. We have gone too P.C. that even telling a women that she looks nice can land you with a lawsuit....Personally I blame some of it on the Feminist movement..."Let's be equal, but before we're equal we must squash the idea of sexual attraction..."...That's why they want boys to play with "easy bake ovens". They want to strip them of their masculinity.

Just my two cents....

 

mrB

[Outcast]

However, I do agree with the others on the whole neutered thing. It is evident in American society.. We have gone too P.C. that even telling a women that she looks nice can land you with a lawsuit....Personally I blame some of it on the Feminist movement..."Let's be equal, but before we're equal we must squash the idea of sexual attraction..."...That's why they want boys to play with "easy bake ovens". They want to strip them of their masculinity.

 

OK, kids. How's about rather than whining about the 'stripping of masculinity' which is totally bogus, we just take a look at our own selves and figure out who we are and what we stand for?

 

It's not you're 'too nice'. It's not that society emasculated you. It's plain and simple - YOU. If you're afraid, fix it. If you're not confident, go challenge yourself and learn to be so. Get counseling if you need it. But don't go whining to a counselor about all the bad guys on the planet who made you bla bla because you'll likely get your butt handed to you on a plate.

 

There is no emasculation. There is no 'too nice'. There's just a bunch of guys with flaws looking for all possible scapegoats rather than take responsibility for growing into people that others want to be with.

 

And you know what? Not taking responsibilty for your own growth isn't attractive. I'd not be interested in any man who went on about all these 'social conspiracy' theories - major, MAJOR turnoff.

 

So maybe lesson one in 'how to become a desirable man' is drop the blaming everybody else.

[mrB2006]

outcast: I agree with you. I am not trying to blame every thing on a "conspiracy". In my case it is myself I have to blame. I was a coward-I recognize that. I have to work hard to change myself.

 

 

But you have to at least acknowledge that there does exist an attitude of 'unisex only'--definitely brought on by the feminist fringe.

 

It does start out at an early age. Boys can no longer play 'cowboys and indians' any more because 'gun are evil and it doesn't give justice to the Native Americans'....Boys can't play dodgeball because you may hurt someone's feelings....Toy trucks are bad because some day that boy will want to be a mechanic. Boys can't act like boys....they must be submissive to the whims of a post-modern form of lunacy.

 

Do you realize that it some American high schools, the idea of having a Valedictorian is losing favor? The fringe elements want to remove competition from society...WE may hurt someones feelings, and the feelings of others are more important than your masculinity (and for the women-feminitity--there are a lot of female valedictorians out there--my 'friend' was the one at my school).

 

That attitude leads right into the teenage years....I am telling you that this does exist.

 

What happens when that boy becomes a man? He may be a man physically, but he hasnt developed emotionally...

 

This is true of women also....these fringe groups want to redefine the whole male/female thing....you can't change nature!

 

Sorry about the rant,...I have been listening to too many George Carlin specials.

 

mrB

[loony]

They want to strip them of their masculinity.

You're whining and this is not attractive. Right now you're just looking for excuses to explain your lack of success with this girl.

 

Isn't one of the reason why you like this girl her assertiveness? Her bold approach of taking the world whenever it pleases her? I've actually rarely seen a 'nice' guy confess his admiration for a girl who was just feminine. Usually they girls they described were pretty and had a certain brashness about them that demanded respect. Would the latter be described as a typical feminine feature? Not really I guess. Would you have fallen in love with a girl who was just pretty and feminine? I doubt that for a woman to be feminine and for a man to be masculine is enough to cause them to feel attracted to each other. I think you need to look beyond the stereotypes and meet her at a human level where people have basically the same needs whether they are male or female.

 

Your girl very likely is not looking for a man à la John Wayne, just someone who is more assertive and self-confident.

[loony]

What happens when that boy becomes a man? He may be a man physically, but he hasnt developed emotionally...

Seriously, he should just stop the whining and get his sh*t together...

[mrB2006]

Loony:

 

Let me reiterate....I have my own problems and I am trying to deal with them. What I have posted is not applicable to me...I messed up and must learn to deal with my own problems....I was a coward towards my 'friend' and I must work it out on my own...I have no one else to blame other than myself...I take full responsiblity for my inactions....

 

I am starting to sound like I am in a 12 step program.....

 

But, there is an element out there that wants to squash the whole idea of masculinity/femininty....They are out there...

 

Again: I have my own problems. I take FULL

[mrB2006]

sorry about that:

 

where I left off: responsibility for my own weaknesses.....

 

I was a coward and must learn to deal with my insecurities.....

 

I hope I have made it clear that I am being responsible here....

 

My reply was to just add a little to the mix....

 

mrb

[loony]

But, there is an element out there that wants to squash the whole idea of masculinity/femininty....They are out there...

I don't know, this reeks of conspiracy theory and I'm starting to think that there's too much paranoia out there. Nobody is out to erase the male race and nobody wants to populate the earth with androgynous beings.

 

Would you feel comfortable with presenting this idea to your 'friend'? If not, you know why, it's because it's nonsense.

[mrB2006]

Loony,

 

In fact my friend did bring up the whole idea of 'p.c. and sexuality' a couple of times. She seemed to agree with some of what I said...She said that I had an convincing viewpoint. Now, I want to say that the feminist movement has made some great advancements that will benefit both sexes...But there is the militant fringe who are completely off their rockers....

 

P.C. is ruining life for us...It makes us afraid to speak up....

Watch the news occasionally and it will be evident...Did you know that the 'Christmas tree' in Boston, is named the 'holiday tree' because there was a fear of offending people....It is a Christmas tree and nothing else...

 

I used to be overweight. I will admit that I was a fat A**. I was not 'horizontally challenged'.

 

Animal rights groups try to equate KFC farms to Bergen-Belsen and other concentration camps...To equate the killing of a chicken to the deaths of millions of innocent people is a sign of possible mental illness, IMHO.

 

It's the same thing with boys and girls,....boys will be boys and girls will be girls.....it is nature defining who we are and not a group of feminist gorillas.

 

That is all I am saying here.....and it is not nonsense.

 

In my case, I put on the appearance of being 'asexual'. But the man inside wanted to be let loose....I was a coward......

 

And again, I am not saying that I am a 'victim of a conspiracy'.....

 

I am to blame......................

[AmberAriesMom]

Here's the thing about 'nice guys'...are they nice guys or people pleasers? If you are the latter then you are being a phoney person to yourself and one day you're going to blame it on someone else.

 

What is a nice guy anyway? (be it male of female) Someone who respects and doesn't abuse you? Someone who really understands and cares about your feelings and doesn't just give them a token care? Is it someone who is somewhat on the wavelength of any civilized person? Maybe all the above, but moreso, this seemingly nice guy person needs to be all that to themselves first or else there is no overflow to share with someone else. ANd that's what real love and caring/sharing of ourselves is. It's what we have left after we fill our own cups so we don't become needy in a relationship.

 

And being all the above to yourself first means you sometimes have to say no and argue when interacting with other human beings who also have the above standards. In other words, if you think being a nice guy means you have to please others first, you're not really a nice guy at all. You're suppressing things that may one day blow up once you feel that all your niceness has not paid off. You are looking to be rewarded for your niceness with another person who will cater to your every whim like a 'nice guy'.

 

Being a nice guy on purpose is easy to spot. I would suggest you get real with who you really are and do what makes you feel like a respectable person in your own eyes. A female of like kind will gravitate toward you.

 

You see, the thing is, we are all human beings and as such we all know there will be times when we get angry and want to 'have it out' if for no other reason than a stress release. And we all know how hard it is to get angry with a 'nice guy' who will take it like a whipped puppy! No one wants that! Unless they are sadistic! And you don't want THAT! A normal healthy minded person wants to know they can be real/angry/cuss our loved ones out/have a bad day...and while we don't want to be attacked for it, we also don't want to be treated condescendingly as if our feelings don't matter. We don't want our feelings to be cheapened by nice guys....nice guys who are faking being nice as if they are the 'bigger person'. Nice guys come across as thinking they are better than anyone who is not so nice. But when you realize that NICE is just fake anyway as it is a denial of our emotions, well to quote Freud..."tell me about your mother".

 

Did mommy give you whatever you wanted as long as you were a good little boy? If so, this is what you may be looking for in a mate. So in that, the honesty is that you want someone who will be nice to you as long as you are nice to them. So what happens then when said person is not nice to you as you see it? What IS nice to you? If you don't get your reward for being nice, do you get mad? Do you pout? Or do you hit? Or do you run away? What do you FEEL like doing? You indicated early on in this thread that you opened doors for people who didn't appreciate it...so later you punished them by deliberately slamming doors in their faces (including a handicapped wheelchair bound person)....you, my dear, are not a nice guy because you want rewarded for seeming nice and when you don't get it you feel hurt and seek revenge. Real NICE people don't want or expect rewards for their niceness.

 

I'm sorry, but I just think this whole nice guy thing is not real. It's not real for males or females. It's nothing short of pretending to be perfect to keep from hearing NO. It is a way of setting people up to accept you as perfect when everyone knows damn right no one is. I pity anyone who falls for the nice guy routine.

[amerikajin]

I don't necessarily believe in an adrogenous conspiracy either but I think some of the recent trends in gender behavior have caused some confusion among both men and women. I think men watch movies and listen to music in which the man comes across as some kind of lovestruck whiney wuss boy who finally gets the girl of his dreams after becoming so wussified as to be a walking posterboy for transsexuality. In real life, that's not how it works.

[loony]

Ok, I'm not American and most of the complaints come from your corner of the world. Maybe it is indeed worse than here where I live. I'm not really sure what to say. Most of the time I would have said that if you blame it on PC when you don't dare to speak up your mind then the problem is actually yours and not PC. PC just seems a convenient way of hiding the lack of balls. But once again, I can't really evaluate the degree of repression that people experience in the American society, most of the time you hear how important 'freedom of speech' is and that it's a pillar of the constitution. Makes me wonder what is true now.

[mrB2006]

Amerikajin: Bingo! Thank you...that is what the point I was trying to make..

 

AmberAriesMom: I agree with what you have posted. I think I am generally a 'good guy'....I try not to be a people pleaser....I refuse to be an a** kisser.. I did that back in high school thinking that would gain me friends and it didn't I have strong opinions and if necessary I will let people know what I'm thinking...I refuse to be a pushover.

 

I agree that getting into healthy arguments is good....I remember that on our road trip my 'friend' asked me about the death penalty...she is against, I am for (but not in all cases)....We got into a heated argument over the merits of the death penalty...In the end we didnt convince each other to change sides....

 

We had this argument when Katrina was happening....We heard on the radio that there was a looting problem....I told her that the police should shoot dead any looters. The looters were adding to the misery already present...She was a upset at that proposition....She kept saying that they were poor and helpless. I fired back saying that looting televisions in a hurricane is just about as retarded as the looting itself. I realized that I needed a way out. I then said the following: "OK, I wouldnt shoot them dead, I would just shoot them in the knee caps and let them fall into the water. Let nature finish them off." Well let's say that didn't go over too well either (although she did laugh a little).....In other words we moved to another controversial topic: abortion. Thankfully there we were on the same page (we are both pro-choice). I am not a pushover, I can be sacrcastic and snippy at the same time.....

 

mrB

[mrB2006]

Loony: I believe that the P.C. thing may be more of an American invention. We have become such a melting pot of people that it is necessary not to be overly offensive. However, when a small group of people try to scare the majority, that is when things get dangereous.

 

America is not a bad place. 99 percent of us want peace in this world. And We all believe in freedom of speech...It's just that some people would like to dominate that speech and not let different viewpoints into the mix....

 

I love my country, I would do almost anything to defend her...However, I cannot defend the actions of those who try to deconstruct the lives of their fellow citizens to further some loony cause (that only 2 percent of the population agrees with).

 

A democracy is only viable if the people have enough information to make choices.

 

This P.C. stuff is prevalent in American culture....It is a fight between the elites and the common man...

 

(If you are wondering, I am not a liberal or a conservative--I am a demo-tarian--democrat with libertarian leanings....)

[mrB2006]

AmberAriesMom: About the 'door incident'....I expect nothing in return other than a smile....I feel that that is not much to ask for. Hell coming into work for a crappy wage you need a smile. but you try being polite to someone who doesnt acknowledge your existence. It's like he is saying "Look: I am in a wheelchair, you must bend overr backwards for me" If This happened to you everyday... I bet you would be a little peeved. And who cares if he is in a wheelchair. It could have been the pope coming through the door (and I am sure he would say something)....There is common courtesy.

 

This doesn't happen now, but it did occur years ago: Have you ever said hello to someone and they just walk right past you...That happened to me in high school. I would do my damndest to be polite and friendly....but it got me nowhere....I refuse to be treated like a doormat....

[mrB2006]

Heck, I am just full of opinions today:

 

AmberAriesMom: I understand your viewpoints. And believe me, I don't want to be seen as an a**hole. However, IMHO, it is about giving and taking.

 

From what I gather from your message, I should want to open the door for a jerk in wheelchair because he is in a wheelchair. I should ignore his attitude because he is disabled. That's kind of messed up thinking there. It is naive thinking to believe that it is a 'one-size-fits-all' niceness that counts. In that case I become a doormat.

 

And mommy didn't get me everything I wanted. You know what she gave me? A whoop the the a** if I acted up. And if she found out about the door incident she would have tanned my a**. But once in a blue moon, mom could be wrong...

 

Now, when I started this thread I was debating whether I was falling into the 'nice guy syndrome' or not. By reading all of the responses, it appears as though I was falling for an illusion. I can change for the better. And I will make a strong effort to change because I do care about myself and my friend.

[lindya]

P.C. is ruining life for us...It makes us afraid to speak up....

Watch the news occasionally and it will be evident...Did you know that the 'Christmas tree' in Boston, is named the 'holiday tree' because there was a fear of offending people....It is a Christmas tree and nothing else...

 

I wonder if a lot of the more absurd political correctness is down to lack of communication. I worked in a very multicultural setting last year, and I can't for the life of me remember any Muslims having a problem with Christmas. By the same token, non-Muslims in the office would, whilst not observing Ramadan themselves, bear it in mind and have sufficient tact to avoid offering food to/ or ostentatiously eat food in front of colleagues who were fasting.

 

I think it's when people from different cultures have a lack of tact and respect for eachothers customs that resentment starts building up and the more absurd forms of political correctness sprout up. I think they're sometimes based on well-intended but misguided assumptions, and form a very poor replacement for common courtesy.

[loony]

And I will make a strong effort to change because I do care about myself and my friend.

Heck, you're acting as if you're friend is made of sugar... You're really far from understanding what it is with self-respect and why it's so important. She's going to have you as an appetizer.

 

I don't think women like it when a guy starts caring for them when they're not interested in him yet. Save all this caring when you're with her indeed, but right now, it's the completely wrong attitude.

[mrB2006]

lindya: I tend to agree with you. I think that it probably comes down to communication. I am still not sure how we should proceed. I feel that we should do everything possible to make immigrants and others comfortable. However, how far should we bend over backwards without causing trouble to our beliefs....

 

mrB

[mrB2006]

loony: Point taken. It does sound a bit syrupy.

[lindya]

lindya: I tend to agree with you. I think that it probably comes down to communication. I am still not sure how we should proceed. I feel that we should do everything possible to make immigrants and others comfortable. However, how far should we bend over backwards without causing trouble to our beliefs....

 

mrB

 

I think being genuinely interested in other cultures definitely helps. That office I worked in will, I think, always be one of my models for how it can work perfectly well. We would have office chats about love, sex, religion, politics, terrorism, the pros and cons of arranged marriages - all sorts of things really.

 

In that environment, there isn't really any need for people to feel like they're bending over backwards to accommodate other cultural beliefs. Learning more about different customs, and getting to see them in practice, made the working day a good deal more fun and interesting - and creates a setting where nobody resents the celebration of one particular religion's special day