whichwayisup Posted December 10, 2005 Posted December 10, 2005 (I went to a NHL hockey game last month and watched seven fights in a drunken stupor--gawd was that fun). You left out something important...Which NHL team?? (Big Leafs fan here) She said in an email from monday that she 'cant wait to talk with me'..She wants me to have dinner with her at her house so we can talk....This is becoming torture. I hope all goes well. Just breath and relax. I think you need to open up and tell her how you feel. If you don't, you could regret it...(I guess too, play it by ear - You will know and feel if she's into you.) For your own self confidence do positive thinking! It may sound stupid but it works. Daily affirmations (no, not as corny as that Stuart skit from SNL) meaning, if you're comfy enough, do a list of ALL your good and positive qualities. What you like most about yourself and what you bring into other people's lives. Don't look at yourself as the "nice guy". I think you nailed it by saying you're a good guy. Nice guys are pushovers, have no spine and are complete YES men. Noone wants an agreeable and happy-go-lucky partner 24/7. You have humour, you have your opinions and stick with them no matter what. The typical nice guy will waiver... The door thing...I know what you mean. I was brought up to open doors for anybody. Elderly, strangers, whatever. What I DO find funny is, me being female and holding open a door for another female, they get flustered and don't know what to say. Weird eh? I just smile. If I open a door for a guy or an older person, I always get a thanks back. It's good to do nice things for people, even strangers once in a while.
Author mrB2006 Posted December 10, 2005 Author Posted December 10, 2005 whichwayisup: I was at a Stars game. They played the blackhawks (9-1 stars-a complete blowout). Tomorrow they play the Leafs. I bet you'll be there....(I saw Stu Barnes get a hat trick at the game I saw-friggin amazing) The game was awesome, I had never been to a pro game before (only watched them on tv).. thanks for the advice....Although I don't know if there is much else I could do. I wish I had a second chance to 'redeem' myself. She had given me many signs that she was interested, but, again I failed to deliver. mrB
lindya Posted December 10, 2005 Posted December 10, 2005 About wounding my ego with the nice guy crap....I would prefer women just tell me my flaws....sometimes being blunt helps... It's not always a case of flaws - sometimes it's just a lack of chemistry. I hear what you're saying about it being a pisser when you're polite to people (eg holding the door open for them) and they don't respond with courtesy. One of my pet dislikes is when I pull over on a narrow country road to let someone past and they sail past without a hint of an acknowledgement. Ignorant pigs. Still, nothing you can do about them. I know you say you're shy, but some people are shy/antisocial to the extent that they can't even acknowledge other people's presence or small courtesies because it's likely to involve eye contact. In order to make your move on this lady, I think you're going to have to really observe her body language and constantly be looking for little signs that she's ready to be kissed. Also, keep reminding yourself of how much you want to kiss her, so that your thoughts and feelings are focused on that rather than on how nervous you feel about making your move.
witabix Posted December 10, 2005 Posted December 10, 2005 A lot of good stuff on this thread. I hold doors open for everyone too. The ones that don't say thanks are ok, it doesn't matter to me. I will continue to be polite regardless, because that is what I want to do. No woman who I have dated/married/lived with etc has ever called me a nice guy!!! I have been called a gentleman and a rogue (and a cheeky b*stard), I live my own life and avoid being clingy or needy, even if I am feeling like that at some point. I can be arrogant and aloof and dismissive of people I consider to be idiots or rude. Hey who the hell can claim they are perfect? No more Mr Nice Guy, may mean something in the context of the book, but if it means No More Mr Polite Guy its not for me.
elijahBailey Posted December 10, 2005 Posted December 10, 2005 To mrB2006: How NOT to be a nice guy.. . Learn to wallk away with your pride intact . Tell yourself she's not the only fish in the ocean . Do not let her feel that she's got you figured out . Have a mind of your own Most importantly, have some confidence. And you can't fake this one. And, oh, Lindya..... don't start with me again :lmao:
Author mrB2006 Posted December 10, 2005 Author Posted December 10, 2005 lindya: I think that there was chemistry between us. If not, then why would she spend every other day with me. Also, she asked me to drive cross-country with her to her school. I was so self-aware of myself that I ignored her and worried about my own feelings. For that I feel horrible. It has been about four months since I last saw her. And I have been thinking about all the times she tried to give me hints, yet I was so chicken not to jump on the opportunities given to me. I still love her, but I don't know how to approach her when I see her in a week. witabix: Thank you for your input. I agree I will not be rude to others. It's just a downer when people ignore you. (My friend told me that I was polite and a gentleman at times--yet she also gave me the "nice guy" routine when I finally spilled my guts). mrB
NewLee40 Posted December 10, 2005 Posted December 10, 2005 Let me tell you about my recent experience with a so-called "nice guy." We meet a local restaurant last week. He's there with a friend and the two of them strike up a conversation with me. We talk about our jobs, our kids, and even pass pictures around of our family. I notice nice guy is kinda flirting with me and when his friend goes to the bathroom, he asks if I have a business card and we exchange cards. He is cute by my standards. Not drop dead gorgeous, but has a sweet smile, a twinkle in his eye, is clean cut and our senses of humor mesh impeccably. I tend to be a little on the shy side, so it takes a special kind of personality to bring out that playful, flirty side so early on. But, in his presence, my sparkle came out a little and I really was quite taken with him. During that conversation, he eluded to the trouble with being a nice guy and how he even told one woman she was really missing out because he was a decent guy and she was too stuck on chasing the bad boys. In fact, he referred to it as the "bad boy disease" and apparently, he'd hooked up with quite a few women who had it. He cited that he was a good guy, good job (CPA), great dad, etc.... We commisserated about the 40 something dating pool and the number of messed up people who are out there. The next day he calls me and asks me out for that evening. We meet at a bar for a drink, talk a little while, and then go get some dinner. He asks me back to his place and I hesitate. We talk about it a little and I tell him I'm willing to go, but there won't be any hanky panky (niave of me, I know). We go back to his place, open a bottle of wine in front of the fire and start making out. He starts to push the boundaries, and I pull back and explain that I probably should go. I'm not the kind of person who has sex on the first date, that I like him, and would really like to see him again. He says he can tell I'm the kind of woman who is looking for something more, and he could tell that I'd had my share of disappointments. He was really very sweet and I have to say the chemistry was electric. Still, I left that evening with my chastity in tact and we made arrangements to see eachother again a couple of days later. Two days of phone calls and long talks, and I was totally convinced he was really a decent guy. We talked about our lives, our experiences, and what we wanted in the future. He seemed interested in what made me tick, and how he could see I was a really good woman. I heard more of his hard luck, it sucks to always be the nice guy and have women reject you for it time and again. I could identify. I've often felt like I should change my name to LeAnne You are aWonderful Woman But... So, on our second date, I decided to take a chance on this guy. All the components where there, the chemistry, the comfort, all, that....we totally clicked. I felt I'd really come across a decent guy, and decided to go with the moment. We did the deed. He introduced me to his dog who fell asleep in my lap, and he made the comment that I also had a calming effect on him. Awwww...sweet. I felt a little awkward later, going home. I've been hurt pretty bad recently and I've had enough rejection to last a lifetime. But, he called the next day and I was relieved. He couldn't wait to see me again. We make arrangements for that Wednesday. I have a standing dinner date with my best friend, and I told him, I'd come over after that. Again, we did the deed and he told me he'd call and we'd actually have dinner the next time. He was very cute. He kept telling me how sweet I was. Thursday. He doesn't call. I'm bummed, but I know alot was going on with his work, so I was patient. Forwarded him an email that I thought would interest him, and left it at that. Friday. No call. Now, mind you, this was a guy who called me two or three times a day as every day for a week. And here we are Saturday. I don't know what is going on with this guy and I don't know if there is a reasonable explanation. But, unless he's been in a car accident that has left him in traction and unable to dial a phone, I don't think a "nice" guy would act this way. So, here I sit...feeling foolish and instead of feeling like the sweet, good, special woman he made me feel like, I envision him doing a fist pump in the air to his guy friend and telling him how he got lucky with the slut they met at the restaurant. I say all this to say, women fall for "nice guys" all the time. The problem is, they don't always turn out to be nice at all. But these guys are still the ones (and I'm not saying YOU are this way, but a little self examination may be in order) going around saying - as this guy did - hey, I'm a nice guy and I always get rejected for it. Are you nice....really? Or are you just shooting for women who are out of your league and overlooking the nice women yourself? I've told guys they are nice when rejecting them, if they are truly nice. I'm not rejecting the nice. I'm just telling you the truth. I'm saying, you seem nice to me, and you probably have alot to offer the right woman, I'm just not interested. There may be other qualities that just don't work for whatever reason and may not be within the guy's control to change. If I'm rejecting a "not nice" guy, I don't preface it with the "nice" statement. There are lots of nice people out there that are not good matches. I mean, really, if a woman doesn't want to go out with you, do you really WANT a laundry list of all the things she finds unattractive about you? Would that kind of feedback really be helpful? I doubt it would. We all deserve to be with people who like us as we are - if they don't, then its on to to find the one that does. I have no problem walking away from the bad boys. No problem at all. Its the seemingly "nice" ones that get me everytime.
amerikajin Posted December 10, 2005 Posted December 10, 2005 Nice guy. Yeah, as someone else said, "You're a nice guy, but..." = "Frankly, I'd rather stay at home and play with my vibrator." That's the bottom line in any romantic relationship: does she feel the pressure of your vein-laden jackhammer or not? For women, an affirmative answer to that question will be influenced by different factors. If she's young, slim, tan, well-toned, intelligent, and got that special twinkle in her eye, gleam in her smile, and spring in her step....well, you'd better have some charm and charisma, be fairly fit yourself, and have some potential as a future provider. Love, romantic attraction, whatever you want to call it is about the least politically correct arena you'll ever visit. Something you've got to do from the outset is to be realistic about your prospects. Some guys can get the hot chicks, and they know it, and that's exactly what they end up doing. But if you've never done better than a 7 on a scale of 10 in the looks or desirability index all of your life, chances are, by age 30, a 7's about all your gonna get. But there are some 7's out there that make damn good partners. There are 4's who make damn good partners too, I hasten to add, but obviously for most men, we want the mate who will give us the most sexual gratification we can find. One big problem in a relationship is when you know you can get a 7 but you end up settling for a 4. That's not good because you're always going to be looking for something else. On the flip side, it makes no sense to pursue 9's and 10's when all you've ever had is a 6 or 7. Now like I said, how attractive a hard-bodied hottie will find you depends on several factors. The most universally important factor to determine how attractive you are, besides your ability to get along with other people, is your ability to be a provider. In short, your assets. That's why a bald, pudgy 45 year old who strikes out in New York can have his pick of the litter in Bangkok. He's a dime a dozen in Manhattan, but in Bangkok, he's highly affluent. They're the ones usually ranting about Asian women being better than Western women, but in reality that's not really true; it's just that circumstances make it seem that way.
JS17 Posted December 10, 2005 Posted December 10, 2005 I say all this to say, women fall for "nice guys" all the time. The problem is, they don't always turn out to be nice at all. I have no problem walking away from the bad boys. No problem at all. Its the seemingly "nice" ones that get me everytime. I've said this a zillion times on LS, nobody seems to believe it except a handful of women here. I remember Merin saying once, If I knew what I was signing up for from the start do you really think I would have? Boy can I identify with that. I feel your pain NewLee. It's so tough to spot the wolves in sheeps clothing. There's nothing you can do. You can wait to have sex but the outcome will still be the same.
Outcast Posted December 10, 2005 Posted December 10, 2005 Thanks for your input...However, the nice thing to do would be to tell me point blank. Don't wrap it up in a 'nice guy' package...I am an adult..."Tell me it straight and I will respect you more". OK, you're an adult now. Part of that is understanding that the world will not operate the way you think it should. So whether or not you'd prefer to hear the entire laundry list of why she's not into you, you won't get it. It's not whether you open the door. The opposite of the "nice, undesirable guy" is not "dickhead". It's "good, secure guy". Exactly. and once u become friends with a woman that's pretty much the end.. she will never ever date you If that were true, LS wouldn't have bunches of posts on 'I fell in love with my friend'. In fact, friendship turning into love happens a lot - it's often how affairs happen. It's total BS that the 'friend zone' is the 'impossible zone'. There are TWO 'friend zones'. There is the 'he's a friend because we haven't got what it takes to be a couple and I'd never want to sleep with him' zone and the 'he's got a lot of great qualities and I could maybe love this guy someday' zone. The key is knowing which zone you're in. Either I`m having a moment of deja vu or this thread has been posted before. I have certainly seen it prior to today. No, it's just that this 'nice guy finish last' whine is almost as common as 'is my penis too small' or 'can I get (partner) back'? questions. Scott Peterson and serial killers gets love letters in prison from women. Don't ask me to explain it. That out of the hundreds of millions of people in the US there are a handful of troubled women who find him attractive does not mean all women are nuts Forgot to add: I didn't mean to come across as a 'dickhead'. It's just that I try to be friendly and open with people (even though I am shy). It is really frustrating when people ignore you. I just would like people to recipricate. You know, if someone says hello, you say something back. Someone opens a door you say thanks. Simple manners, which have been lost in our American culture. One of your problems is that you don't know who you are. At all. See the above? That's you governing your behaviour according to others' behaviour or opinions. Now contrast this: I hold doors open for everyone too. The ones that don't say thanks are ok, it doesn't matter to me. I will continue to be polite regardless, because that is what I want to do. There's confidence. He knows who he is and what he believes and stands for them. He doesn't go whining that nobody appreciates him. He does nice things because that's who he is. The "nice guy but..." is just one of those meaningless sweeteners people use when they have to give a message that is likely to wound someone's ego. But guys seem to get totally hung up on those two words "nice guy", and perceived "niceness" becomes the scapegoat whenever you don't get what you want Quoted for truth. One big problem in a relationship is when you know you can get a 7 but you end up settling for a 4. That's not good because you're always going to be looking for something else. On the flip side, it makes no sense to pursue 9's and 10's when all you've ever had is a 6 or 7. Ugh. How lame. Today's 7 will be tomorrow's 3. Looks don't last. Personality does. If all you think about is numbers on an arbitrary scale of shallowness, expect that your love life will be unsatisfactory.
loveheart59 Posted December 10, 2005 Posted December 10, 2005 Im an honest girl. Ive had a bad experiance with a guy and I have said "I want a nice guy" but I dont really. A nice guy would bore me to death. Part of the allure of men and also the vice is the way you keep us guessing. "He said hi to me on Monday but he walked passed me on Wednesday, does he like me?". We hate it and love it at the same time:love: . Not all woman are the same but a lot want to be looked after. If someone jumps at you in the middle of the night demanding money you want someone who can hold his corner, not a nice guy...
Milo Posted December 10, 2005 Posted December 10, 2005 "nice" to a girl means plain, not interesting, not ATTRACTIVE. Nice is a euphemism. Like when the mob gives you "early retirement."
Milo Posted December 10, 2005 Posted December 10, 2005 Let me tell you about my recent experience with a so-called "nice guy." Goddamnit, that is irritating. A very cool friend of mine recently got "played" as she put it by a guy who convinced her that he was interested in more than a fling. Same deal, too. Jackass. I mean, my friend is quite cautious about this sort of thing and she was really caught off guard.
JS17 Posted December 10, 2005 Posted December 10, 2005 It's a common occurance Milo. Tell your friend to get used to it.
Author mrB2006 Posted December 10, 2005 Author Posted December 10, 2005 Again thanks for the advice.... I am trying to take it all in appropriately. I realized that I goofed up royally. outcast: I think you are right about the fz issue...But do I still have a chance? Can I learn everything I did wrong and somehow redeem myself in her eyes? Are there second chances? Believe me, knowing what I know now I would have played it all differently....My problem is that I am too damn shy...I am usually easy going, but when I get close with a woman I tend to freak out...I fall into the whole shy guy thing. That's when I hear the your a nice, sweet guy stuff. NewLee40: You are right. I am trying to look at myself differently. I am trying to become more confident. I believe that I am a nice guy but not in the 'nice guy syndrome' sense. I look at myself as a 'good' guy, it just seems that others say 'nice guy'..If someone gets me talking I tend not to be a pushover. With my friend: I always kept my word. If I said I would email her I would. If Isaid that I would let her borrow a book I would loan it to her. I always kept my word...I always enjoyed her company...It was just that I was too damn shy to make a move...I am sorry that jerk treated you poorly I am embarrassed by my lack of action...I should have made my move at the beginining...I believe we had a lot of chemistry... Bottom line: I will start being more confident in myself. I will stop with the whole 'nice guy' talk....Damn it, I am not a 'nice guy', I will not let people define me, I will define myself. How do I do that: by breaking old habits. Final question for all: Once I spilled my guts out to my friend, I told her that Iwould understand if she no longer wanted to communicate with me.. She said that she wants to still speak with me...However her last email said that she "cant WAIT'-her words- to speak with me during the christmas break. She wants me to have dinner at her house... Am I reading too much into this? She knows how I feel about her? Is this her way of giving me a second chance? --I will take all of your advice to heart and put it into practice starting now. I am tired of my negative thinking... Thanks for the advice, some of it was a bit troublesome but necessary to read. mrB
loony Posted December 10, 2005 Posted December 10, 2005 It's a common occurance Milo. Tell your friend to get used to it. It really might be the place you're living in or you need to take more time to get to know people. I'm not sure how you look like, but I'd assume that the better you look, the more careful you have to be in order not to become a player's victim.
Outcast Posted December 10, 2005 Posted December 10, 2005 outcast: I think you are right about the fz issue...But do I still have a chance? Can I learn everything I did wrong and somehow redeem myself in her eyes? Are there second chances? Believe me, knowing what I know now I would have played it all differently....My problem is that I am too damn shy...I am usually easy going, but when I get close with a woman I tend to freak out...I fall into the whole shy guy thing. That's when I hear the your a nice, sweet guy stuff. You know the very best person to ask? Her. When you're having your dinner at her place, ask her if she could see you two as a couple. She'll give you a no or a qualified yes or something in between. That way you're not directly putting her on the spot but you're finding out what she thinks about long-term prospects for her. It may be you're not sporty enough or not enough into family or any one of a zillion things she might have on her 'list' of qualifications and the only way to find out if you can make it to the short list is to ask the lady herself.
JS17 Posted December 10, 2005 Posted December 10, 2005 Final question for all: Once I spilled my guts out to my friend, I told her that Iwould understand if she no longer wanted to communicate with me.. She said that she wants to still speak with me...However her last email said that she "cant WAIT'-her words- to speak with me during the christmas break. She wants me to have dinner at her house... Am I reading too much into this? She knows how I feel about her? Is this her way of giving me a second chance? I don't think any of us can actually answer that for you, I think only she knows and I think you could get varying opinions. IMO, I think that you're best off expecting the worst. There's a significant possibility that you will end up disappointed otherwise. I sincerely hope it works out for you but I think it's best for you not to get your hopes up and end up getting hurt.
Author mrB2006 Posted December 10, 2005 Author Posted December 10, 2005 outcast: Thanks, I will definitely take your advice... About family issues...Over the months she would ask me what I thought about marriage and having children..I said that I would like to get married someday and have kids....whenever we talked about former classmates who now have families, she would ask me if I tought I would ever get married, I gave her the same response....Believe it or not, she asked me what names I thought would be nice for children... there were several ackward moments: She asked me on our roadtrip a real interesting question: one of those indecent propsosal questions. I responded truthly and she nodded in approval of my answer. She also asked me if I would rather marry a rich woman I didn't love or a an attractive poor woman...strange question... she asked me other questions as well...it was obvious to me that she was interested in me as a potential bf, but again I was too cowardly to make my move.... I know in my heart that she may be my match.... But I come back to the main problem, we are currently two thousand miles apart....I will be overseas in three months (however, she may be in my region-a short plane ride away). I disappointed her and myself by my inaction. I have thought that we could see each other every two or three months. But I think I am being a little bit unrealistic. Can relationships work like this? Also, I believe that my self-awareness is selfish. I was so wrapped up in my shy-thing that I neglected her signals....I have to remember that she may already have somebody else, and I could be SOL.... mrB
amerikajin Posted December 10, 2005 Posted December 10, 2005 Ugh. How lame. Today's 7 will be tomorrow's 3. Looks don't last. Personality does. If all you think about is numbers on an arbitrary scale of shallowness, expect that your love life will be unsatisfactory. Oh, I'm sooo misunderstood. I wasn't trying to suggest that looks are the only criteria in dating. But let's face it, attraction's a big deal in the beginning at least, and I think that's especially true for men. In later years, you have to be more realistic, but that urge to find someone physically appealing never quite goes away.
Author mrB2006 Posted December 10, 2005 Author Posted December 10, 2005 Clarification: She had asked me all of the marriage questions every once in a while... I asked her if we would be a a good couple, thats when I heard the 'just friends, your're so nice' talk.... then, we go on the road trip...She asks me more about marriage, children, and my future....also the indecent proposal questions come into play... When I finally spilled my guts out to her, I told her that I had kind of asked earlier about a potential future together, but I told her that the talks concerning marriage and sex( yes, she seemed to have sex on her mind a lot)had caused me to ask her again....Again I got the 'just friends, nice guy' talk.... About a week after spilling my guts, I sent her an email clairifny something I had written....She replied that I she was waiting for me to make a move. since I didn't she figured that I wasn't into her in that way....she went on to say the I doubt myself too much and that I should take risks because you never know where you will end up... And yet, she still wants to write to me. She knows how I feel........ mrB
ms_jnj Posted December 11, 2005 Posted December 11, 2005 Hm, I've been thinking about this "Nice Guy" thing myself. And being female, the closest thing I can figure is that...women like the door opening and such but they not only want to detect qualities within a man that will gaurantee respect and compatability --but also a sort of wildness about the man that tells them that if they are ever in trouble, he will leap in and defend her with the passion and single-mindedness of an agressive animal. Basic and primal, but I think it's true. I think a woman's secret fear, one she may not even cognitively realize, is that she will get a man that will send her flowers and open doors but will stand there blubbering and wringing his hands if she is attacked or in danger. Just my theory!
Woggle Posted December 11, 2005 Posted December 11, 2005 I think that one of the most important things when dating a woman is respect. She has to respect you and if you are a doormat she will not respect you. I see many guys get trated like crap and keep coming back for more. For a woman or man your mate will respect and appreciate you more if they know they can lose you if they do you wrong. Acting like a doormat makes a woman respect you less.
johan Posted December 11, 2005 Posted December 11, 2005 This cuts both ways. Women can also be too nice. And it's hard to love a woman you don't respect. I suppose it would be an interesting discussion as to why men are the ones griping about it all the time. Probably some kind of gender roles thing.
lindya Posted December 11, 2005 Posted December 11, 2005 This cuts both ways. Women can also be too nice. And it's hard to love a woman you don't respect. I suppose it would be an interesting discussion as to why men are the ones griping about it all the time. Probably some kind of gender roles thing. Are you going to start the thread or shall I?
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