witabix Posted December 8, 2005 Posted December 8, 2005 Yes but still a large number of people don't recognize the symptoms and don't know it's a treatable condition. Most adults today were never diagnosed and many are unaware that they have it. The estimate is that 4-10% of all adults have AD/HD. That's a LOT of people - four out of every hundred you know. But if a person's brain is no good at time management, then it's not about you or 'respect' at all so to get yourself all upset over it is to be upset for nothing. It's NOT about you!!!!! This is what I mean by taking it personally. Don't - it only upsets you over something that isn't in your control. I get it outcast, 4%-10% is actually 4 to 10 people out of every hundred and yes that is a LOT. I wasn't referring to to people that actually have a disorder. I was referring to the lazy/ignorant ones who just can't be bothered, it can also be a learned behavior. People who have it handed to them on plate, I think the phrase is "spoiled", who have never had to actually think for themselves are the ones I am referring to, and not children but adults who behave like five year olds. I am putting my flak jacket on here as I prepare to say this...... I am of the opinion that a lot of these psych disorders are used as an excuse for incorrect behavior, in the "I can't help being overweight I am big boned!" way, some people need excuses to explain how they just can't help being a jerk. And we seem to love to give them such excuses. If you are in pain you can take a painkiller, if you can't sleep you can take a sleeping tablet, if you behave in a negative fashion you can learn not too, just as you learned to in the first place. Unfortunately no one has invented a jerkalgesic tablet, take two and lie down in a darkened room, and don't ever come out and annoy people again!
a4a Posted December 8, 2005 Posted December 8, 2005 I am of the opinion that a lot of these psych disorders are used as an excuse for incorrect behavior! I will stand with you and take a bullet for that statement! a4a
witabix Posted December 8, 2005 Posted December 8, 2005 I often wonder if people (NOT talking about you specifically) so enjoy getting high on the adrenaline of anger that they don't want to accept that maybe blame and condemnation isn't the best way to deal with such situations. I think you have hit the other end of the stick right on the head (I love mixed metaphors!!) here outcast. This is definately a reaction I have been guilty of in the past, and I recognised that years ago. I unlearned that negative behavior as soon as I could. We are responsible for own emotional reaction to others behaviors, and I believe that how we react to others is more important in defining our interactions than is popularly accepted. We cannot insist that someone behaves in a way that we define they should. We should show them thats its not acceptable to us, and let them decide what they are going to do about, if they even want to. Getting angry with someone never solved anything, explaining that you find something unacceptable and why you do is far more powerful.
Author JadeStar Posted December 8, 2005 Author Posted December 8, 2005 You know OutCast you make a good point about the ADHD/ADD thing. Never looked at it like that. I have often wondered if that is something my hubby has as well. I remember his mother telling me when he was about 10 she took him see a child thearapist, because his teachers would tell her he would just sit and do nothing like he was in a zone or something. Maybe like daydreaming. At any rate, she said his mind was never where it should've been. To my knowledge this thearpists never tested him for anything and just told his mother, "he will probably be an inventor since his mind is always somewhere else." So basically it was never looked into further. She laughs about it to this day, personally I don't feel its funny, but maybe she does because she feels it is now my problem and she doesn't have to deal with it no more. He has 2 older sisters and he is the baby. He has also always had things done for him. He never took the time to do anything for others unless it benefited him. So its highly possible I see 2 things going on with my hubby, possible ADD,(not ADHD because hes not hyper at all) and the mere fact he was babied. There was alot of things early on in our marraige that I had to put a stop too because of the things his mother would still do even though he no longer lived with them. Such as calling my house at 6 am to wake him up so he wouldn't be late for work. WTF? We had an alarm clock that he woke up too, but she still called. Guess who had to be the one to tell her to stop? At 25 years of age (now 35) he didn't see it as a problem that his mother called to wake him up. My parents didn't do that to me, when I got married it wasn't there place. Becoming- I can so relate to your situation as well. ADD or not, it can be very frustating, because I feel all the weight has been placed upon me to do things or at least make sure they get done. However, now that OutCast has pointed out that ADD/ADHD may play a role in the way things might be, I may get him to at least get checked out. Jade
Outcast Posted December 8, 2005 Posted December 8, 2005 I am of the opinion that a lot of these psych disorders are used as an excuse for incorrect behavior How many people with disorders do you actually know? I know a lot and, believe me, nobody wants 'excuses'. Nobody wants people mad at them all the time. Nobody wants to be considered a 'jerk' or 'lazy', 'stupid' or 'inconsiderate'. And being blamed for something you CANNOT help is completely unfair. This is the very illustration of lack of empathy. You can't begin to imagine how hard it is for these people to function so you judge them based on your own abilities. Go to a support group for people with AD/HD someday. Meet some people with mental illnesses. See how difficult their lives are. Trust me, NOBODY chooses to live being hated by everyone because they can't get their act together.
lilmoma1973 Posted December 8, 2005 Posted December 8, 2005 I am married to this type, and, trust me, it'll drive you absolutely ape sh%t (no offense, a4a). Nothing gets done until it's a crisis. For example, our roof was damaged in a storm and leaked. It was covered by insurance and all it would take is a call to the insurance co. who would call a roofer they used to fix it. My h. said he'd do it. And he didn't. And he didn't. I had had it with this behavior by this point. So I decided to say/do nothing. The roof kept leaking until honest to God the ceiling fell in, creating even more problems! At that point, I just left with his babies because it was too unsafe. He woke up at that point. These folks don't seem to have a clue how their behavior affects others until it affects them in a negative way. Could I have made the call to the insurance co.? Sure. Would I? No. It just encourages the behavior. This is still an ongoing problem that is huge in our marriage (can't ya tell?). Just tell me "No, I'm not gonna do it" already! I have to stand tough and calm, which takes a tremendous amount of energy not to fall into the passive aggressive battle (like putting the bags of clothes in the front seat of his car with a "friendly" reminder). In h's case, he was an adored child. If he forgot to do something, Mama did it for him. He thus never had to suffer the consequence of his behavior. His sister calls him Jesus because his mother thought he could walk on water. The thing is, these folks are often quite wonderful. So of course folks are there to do everything for them, which only encourages them. But this behavior is so annoying it's easier to just do it for them after awhile. They can't SAY no because that would make themselves look bad, so they just DO no. And everyone else just seems to understand so they never have to see the negative consequences. It's classic passive aggressive behavior, JadeStar. Look it up on Google. Lilmoma--h did same thing with daughter's closet. It has drywall propped up against it. After 6 years. Staying sane with these folks is the trick. Refusing to accept all the excuses, blame, and calmly holding them to what they say they'll do with witnesses or writing in the business world is sometimes necessary. I worked with one and cc'd his supervisor by email on everything he'd agreed to do because he wouldn't do it otherwise. It has something to do with the perception of being controlled, so nagging only feeds it. Overcommitment. Underestimating the time it takes to complete tasks. Becoming your h sounds like mine and have often wonder if he was bipolar never thought about add or adhd .. H has signs of OCD also need to get him tested and see !!
witabix Posted December 8, 2005 Posted December 8, 2005 How many people with disorders do you actually know? I know a lot and, believe me, nobody wants 'excuses'. Nobody wants people mad at them all the time. Nobody wants to be considered a 'jerk' or 'lazy', 'stupid' or 'inconsiderate'. And being blamed for something you CANNOT help is completely unfair. This is the very illustration of lack of empathy. You can't begin to imagine how hard it is for these people to function so you judge them based on your own abilities. Go to a support group for people with AD/HD someday. Meet some people with mental illnesses. See how difficult their lives are. Trust me, NOBODY chooses to live being hated by everyone because they can't get their act together. I think I have failed to get my point across correctly. I will answer your question though. My mother was a lifelong depressive, constantly needing her "nerve" tablets as she called them, her brother, my uncle, was in mental institutions half of his life, and I went to live with him when I had nowhere else to go, my moms older brother committed suicide because of his depressive nature. I and all my brothers have fought against alcholism and drugs all our lives, my paternal grandfather was an alchoholic. Neither I nor my brothers ever needed to make excuses that we couldn't help our behavior, we got off our asses and sorted ourselves out, and we told each other to do that. We didn't allow family history or our poverty to excuse our negative behaviors. I understand what its like to be at the mercy of, what seems to be outside of your control, but isn't really. And how we need to realise this. I am not talking about AN ACTUAL PHYSICAL IMPAIRMENT OF THE BRAIN OR ITS FUNCTIONS. Having said that, there are people with actual disabilities that could teach us all how to cope better and overcome what seems like insurmountable odds. Thats what I am talking about.
Becoming Posted December 8, 2005 Posted December 8, 2005 I read your earlier post, Outcast, and I have wondered before if he's not AD/HD. We've talked about it. He's talked to a therapist about it but hasn't been tested because they decided this doesn't apply. He can focus quite well on anything he wants to do. We have a daughter who's off in lala land in her own mind who's a lot like him--trouble staying on task, yet wonderfully able and gifted in many ways. Both are highly intelligent. They focus fine on what they want to do. They just have a lot of stuff going on and just can't seem to be bothered by small details, especially ones they know they "should" do but don't want the perceived hassle they think saying no will bring. (Which it sometimes does, in my case, to be quite honest. But I'm learning. . . . ) But thanks, I'll persist and follow up with AD/HD because I know there are lots of manifestations. His behavior is actually getting better. In his case, I really do think it has more to do with waking up, growing up, and accepting full responsibility for life instead of expecting there'll be someone to clean up after him if something doesn't quite get finished. After 25 years of life with this mostly great man, I've learned how to live with it. But I learned the hard way. And even if there is a mental illness, doesn't it mean the person's still responsible for living as well as possible with it and letting others know of their incapacity so they can help them?
Outcast Posted December 8, 2005 Posted December 8, 2005 So its highly possible I see 2 things going on with my hubby, possible ADD,(not ADHD because hes not hyper at all) and the mere fact he was babied. And it's worth figuring out which is prevalent and by how much but his mom's description of his behaviour in school is classic ADD. So for sure it's worth investigating. There are a lot of conditions that can mimic AD/HD so the doc needs to do a proper diagnosis - meaning you need one who knows what he's doing. There are still a lot of physicians (mostly, I suspect, the ones who graduated before the very recent science on AD/HD was done) who don't 'believe' in AD/HD or who think kids grow out of it. The AD/HD advocacy groups still have a fair bit of public education work to do. He can focus quite well on anything he wants to do. Shows that guy didn't actually understand AD/HD. In fact, that's one of the major symptoms. Interest enables focus - it's doing the boring things that are the problem. And even if there is a mental illness, doesn't it mean the person's still responsible for living as well as possible with it and letting others know of their incapacity so they can help them? In an ideal world, people would be able to be rational about it but the fact is that, while finding out AD/HD explains one's behaviour, a lot of people still feel 'broken' and bad when they're diagnosed and respond with denial. It takes some quite a bit of support and acceptance to be able to deal with the fact of having a disorder; mostly precisely because too much of society still stigmatizes people with mental ailments as people looking for 'excuses' or people who are simply weak-willed
Becoming Posted December 8, 2005 Posted December 8, 2005 Thanks for enlightenment, Outcast. The fact that I have a daughter who zones out like he does sometimes really has me suspicious. Lord knows that child hasn't been babied like he was. I have a friend whose daughter has a strange learning disorder: she doesn't process oral language. Only hears about every 3rd word. Imagine! No wonder school and social life give her fits. We're all just broken bits held together by skin that makes us look intact, aren't we? We're just broken in different ways, yet we pretend we're not because of the stigma. How sad. Obviously, depression runs in witabix's family. And that's a tough one, too. Thank you for reminding us, Outcast, that we could all use a little more tolerance and understanding. Personal responsibility, absolutely! Less pretense with one another, perhaps even more. What I like about LS is that we're not afraid to ask for help here, but we do this here because it's safer in this anonymous world than in the real one. Would that we transfer this cyber world of understanding to our real lives.
Outcast Posted December 8, 2005 Posted December 8, 2005 The fact that I have a daughter who zones out like he does sometimes really has me suspicious AD/HD is one of the most heritable conditions there are!! We're all just broken bits held together by skin that makes us look intact, aren't we? We're just broken in different ways, yet we pretend we're not because of the stigma. How sad. It really is. One of the big lessons of my adult life is that there are very few people that are without trouble or pain of some sort. It's really a world of the walking wounded, IMHO. Imagine (said John) how it would be if we all sought to understand and heal each other - if we saw that behind the anger and pain and selfishness is usually a wounded creature trying to protect itself.
witabix Posted December 9, 2005 Posted December 9, 2005 We're all just broken bits held together by skin that makes us look intact, aren't we? We're just broken in different ways, yet we pretend we're not because of the stigma. How sad. Obviously, depression runs in witabix's family. And that's a tough one, too. Broken bits held together by skin....... I hear that. I feel like I am a pile of broken bits held together by skin, that is an excellent description of how I feel inside. I will not show that to anyone. I believe that if I show that, that is what I will become. So I behave in the fashion that I wish to be perceived, a together man, who is relaxed and cool. You have no idea how it feels to be me, anymore than I know how it feels to be you. Thank you for sympathetic attitude, I in no way wish to imply that I do not understand the pain of real real mental health issues. To outcast I would say the same thing. I do understand, and there is no way I can say how much I understand, and there is no way you can understand how much I understand. I ask you a question outcast, how much time have you spent in a mental institution?
witabix Posted December 9, 2005 Posted December 9, 2005 .........if we saw that behind the anger and pain and selfishness is usually a wounded creature trying to protect itself. Remember your own words Outcast, remember them well. You probably never wrote a truer set of words, sometimes us wounded people speak more truth than we are given credit for.
Outcast Posted December 9, 2005 Posted December 9, 2005 I ask you a question outcast, how much time have you spent in a mental institution? None. I've actually been very blessed with good health (knock on wood). However I've known several people with schizophrenia and other conditions. There are depressive people in my family. And I've been working with groups to support people with AD/HD and other disorders as well as learning disorders. Always been fascinated with psychology/psychiatry - all that goes on in the mind.
witabix Posted December 9, 2005 Posted December 9, 2005 Good, I hope you never do. I do not want you to think that I have any problem with your point of view. All I wanted to do was put my point of view. Your POV is cool, and I truly do understand all the things you said. I in no way wanted give the impressin that I think everyone who has a mental/behavioral problem is faking it or needs to snap out of it. I realise re-reading my own posts that that is what may come across. I really do understand. I hope I haven't given you or the other readers the wrong idea here.
Outcast Posted December 9, 2005 Posted December 9, 2005 I in no way wanted give the impressin that I think everyone who has a mental/behavioral problem is faking it or needs to snap out of it. I realise re-reading my own posts that that is what may come across. I really do understand. I hope I haven't given you or the other readers the wrong idea here. It did sound that way at first but you've since cleared it up
Becoming Posted December 9, 2005 Posted December 9, 2005 Imagine (said John) how it would be if we all sought to understand and heal each other - if we saw that behind the anger and pain and selfishness is usually a wounded creature trying to protect itself. Amen! And a fitting tribute to John on the anniversary of his death.
Becoming Posted December 9, 2005 Posted December 9, 2005 I once worked in a mental institution, the old Bedlam of Shakespeare fame in London. Ya couldn't tell the patients from the staff. Given what many had been through, if they'd been sane they would've really been crazy. Truth is, none of us is that far away from going around the bend at some point in our life. If we think otherwise, we're deceiving ourselves. These folks were nurses, teachers, businessmen. Ordinary folks. Tho they mean well, the staff is largely ineffective. Drs. see pts. 1x/week for a few minutes to make med adjustments unless someone's violent. Nurses are the real healers and they should get combat pay. All I know is that I'd have to be in serious danger of hurting myself or others to ever want to be admitted from what I saw there, but maybe things are different here. Visits to pts. here don't look all that different, though. What about you, witabix? You been inside? My father had a brain tumor that left him with a hole in his brain from radiation. He's certifiable, and it's not pretty, though he did once give me all the distilleries on the east coast, which the Queen of England had given to him. We could all use a little more kindness and understanding, n'est ce pa? And humor. Now that I own all the distilleries, I can throw one helluva party. Really funny for someone who rarely drinks!
Outcast Posted December 9, 2005 Posted December 9, 2005 Truth is, none of us is that far away from going around the bend at some point in our life. That's just it. None of us can afford scorn, for there but for the grace of God go we all.
a4a Posted December 9, 2005 Posted December 9, 2005 You know I have beat my brains out with the Passive Aggressive concept for many hours last night trying to get a handle on my Hyena..... It would seem that there is just of good of a chance that many of the people complained about in this thread are simply PA people or combos perhaps of that and a disorder. http://www.passiveaggressive.homestead.com/PATraits.html a4a
Author JadeStar Posted December 9, 2005 Author Posted December 9, 2005 Thanks for the link a4a. I read over them and I think there were about 11 traits at the top half of the page. Even though I'm not doctor, I can honestly say out of the 11, my husband displays about 7 of those. However, I found that I have 2 of those myself. But I could relate to those 2, not on a daily or ongoing basis though, but I have found that I display those 2 traits once in awhile. Husband displays all 7 everyday. I feel bad about saying that, but it true. Thanks again that was a helpful link. Jade
a4a Posted December 9, 2005 Posted December 9, 2005 I am on a quest myself on how to deal with the PA person. It is f-ing frustrating...... if you do not have a choice but to deal with them that is..... thus the CPA thread.... not certified public accountants........ although they may have PA traits as well...... a4a
Becoming Posted December 9, 2005 Posted December 9, 2005 I read a book on dealing with the passive aggressive personality that was extremely helpful: LIVING WITH THE PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE MAN by Scott Wetzler It's not just for husbands/SO but for folks we work with as well. After reading this book, I can recognize what's going on and am able to exert some power in the exchanges instead of feeling like an accident victim who never knew what just hit her.
Outcast Posted December 9, 2005 Posted December 9, 2005 It would seem that there is just of good of a chance that many of the people complained about in this thread are simply PA people or combos perhaps of that and a disorder. The problem with disorders is that they make people behave as though they have other neuroses or problems, which is why the first best thing to do is have someone diagnosed. The differential diagnosis process should rule out or in whether someone has a disorder or is in need of therapy for their dysfunctional coping strategies.
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