EnigmaXOXO Posted November 22, 2005 Posted November 22, 2005 The way that someone decides to dress or present themselves should not, in any way, justify someone else's choice to victimize them. No matter how irresponsible or careless they seem to be in regard to their own personal safety. Midori provided a great analogy on this topic some time back, and I think it's worth the bump-up (miss her ): We're talking about two different things: a) taking care of oneself and b) "inviting" rape or another personal violation. My main point is that every individual is responsible for their own actions. If a shopkeeper had a late-night delivery and couldn't be bothered to be there himself and so just told the truck driver to leave the stuff by the door and he'll bring it into the store the next morning -- well, yes, that shopkeeper is being pretty careless. Does that make it right for someone to steal the delivered goods sitting outside the shop's door? I don't think so. There's a basic rule: if it isn't yours, don't take it. For many people the rule even extends to: if you find something of value you should make any reasonable effort to return it to its rightful owner -- even if that just means turning it into lost & found or the police. Someone's carelessness with their property does NOT give anyone the right to take that property. A woman's lack of cautiousness, in her manner of dress or in her behavior, does not give anyone the right to sexually violate her. Does it make it more likely that she'll be taken advantage of by an unscrupulous person? Possibly. Maybe even probably. Does that diminish his guilt? Not in the slightest.
Judas Christian Posted November 22, 2005 Posted November 22, 2005 that's absolutely the point right there, and i think it's nuff said.
Neptune Posted November 22, 2005 Posted November 22, 2005 There just seems to be something lacking in putting all the blame on men regardless of circumstances. Read my post on page one. A very attractive 19 year old gets so intoxicated she has a blackout, wakes up on the floor naked, clothes in the next room and seems to be bragging about the good time. It is like holding a salmon in your hand and waving it at a grzzly bear. How many people are going to sympathize with you if you told people you went to Yellowstone and was tantalizing a grizzy bear by waving a salmon at him and got your arm bitten off?
submart Posted November 22, 2005 Posted November 22, 2005 NOBODY EVER DESERVES TO BE RAPED!! PERIOD! Rape is one of the worst crimes that can happen. It is considered soul murder. People suffer from flashbacks, depression, anger, guilt, etc LONG after the rape has happened. This is a very serious touchy topic. Rape destroys lives and is NOT something that oftentimes happen by strange men in an alley with a gun in the middle of the night. It happens by our lovers, parents, doctors, teachers, friends, etc. Rape is never the victim's fault. One is no obligation to have sex with somebody...not even if they are married or dating. One can always say no. I once went on a date with a man when I was 18, and was raped. He called me a slut, said that I deserved it, that I got what I want and it was time to give him what he wanted, that I was lucky he chose me, that I was a tease, that I was going to hell, etc. This was PURE HELL. I did not deserve what happened to me. I don't care if I was wearing a thong and a bra, I said NO. All action should stop there. This holds true for all situations.
alphamale Posted November 22, 2005 Posted November 22, 2005 Rape is one of the worst crimes that can happen. It is considered soul murder. People suffer from flashbacks, depression, anger, guilt, etc LONG after the rape has happened. . men who have fought on the front lines of WWII, Vietnam, Iraq, etc...suffer the same things. I don't hear them sitting around complaining about it all the time... Rape, war, famine, disease, pestilence have been around for eons and will continue to exist. Accept it and move on...
lindya Posted November 22, 2005 Posted November 22, 2005 Rape, war, famine, disease, pestilence have been around for eons and will continue to exist. Accept it and move on... Alpha - that's your phrase for today, I think. More seriously, submart expressed a viewpoint based on a very valid (and painful) personal experience. Yes - many other dreadful things happen in this world, but one person's trauma doesn't negate anothers. You mentioned the experiences of war veterans, and certainly PTSD seems to be a common and extremely destructive problem for many of them. Perhaps all the more so because they have spent lengthy periods in an environment where one is expected to just get on with things. The determination to appear stoical and resilient sometimes seems to reduce rather than enhance people's ability to successfully cope with trauma on a long term basis.
Craig Posted November 22, 2005 Posted November 22, 2005 There are rapists among us and they don't wear signs on their forehead stating as much. There are men as well as women that hate women. I think it is reasonable to expect that some of these people would be surveyed and their answers form part of the results. Other people may not have thought about the question completely and gave answers that they might not give if they were fully informed. I am sure that many of the people that said a woman is fully to blame would change their minds quickly upon being violated against their will. Maybe someone should do a follow-up study and see. Whatever. There is no debate here. Violating another person in any manner is clearly wrong and 100% of the blame and responsibility belongs to the violator.
Topper Posted November 22, 2005 Posted November 22, 2005 One thing we are all doing is basing our replies on that everyone one who answered the questions was western. Since the question was ask by Amnesty International I suspect that it was more then just Americans, British citizens or people from other from western countries replying. As horrible as this may sound. In many parts of the middle east and other parts of the world, The woman is always blamed for the rape. In some countries it is a time honored practise for a family member to execute a female member of the family who has been raped. Her death restores somehow restores the family name and honor. We in The west respect woman a lot more then many places in the world. Nobody, woman man or child should be subjected to rape under any circumstances.
NightsInWhiteSatin Posted November 22, 2005 Posted November 22, 2005 I think if a girl is dumb enuff to get sloppy drunk around some other dopey males who are stupid drunk, she can expect to get raped, and yeah she should take responsibility and say I put myself in this situation thus it's fully my fault. I got 'sloppy drunk' at a friends house party 2 years and i was upstairs in her room with 5 other girls whilst a mix of guys and girls all my friends i'd known for over a year some even longer were downstairs. I felt safe, it was my friends house, she was there lots of other girl mates were with me and only a few guy mates were there. Then right at the end of the night when i was extremely 'sloppy drunk' to the state where i was lay in the bed unable to move just watchin tv with another female friend who was sharin the bed with me and my gay best mate was on the couch in the same room there was a knock at the door and it was a very good mate of mine who was my recent ex's best mate too. He came upstairs tellin us about his night of drugs n drink etc and watched tv with us then he went downstair to see other ppl. The next thing i know i wake up because i felt something really heavy on me and there he was lyin on top of me with his pants half down and he had his fingers in my mouth and was trying to pull my boob out of my bra. Lying next to me was my friend asleep and just across from us was my other friend asleep on the couch. Anyway i'm not gonna go into any detail, but c'mon be fair if you feel you're in a safe environment and you're getting drunk with youre mates it doesnt mean you are 'dumb' if you decide to get 'sloppy drunk' and half the time young girls who dont have much experience in drinking don't know their limit before they become 'sloppy drunk' so they are more than likely to make the innocent mistake of drinking too much because thats how you find out your limitations. I know when i first started going out drinking i used to come home 'sloppy drunk' nearly every time i went out until i learnt what amount of alcohol i could drink before i became 'sloppy drunk'. That doesnt make me dumb in the slightest. Also, if well over 50% of men can control themselves after having a few beers and not go around raping 'sloppy drunk' women there is no excuse for the men who can't. There is some women who....well i wouldnt say 'ask' for it but encourage men by getting their boobs out in public for example on my way home from a night out a girl on a packed night bus got out her boobs and encouraged 2 totally drunk male strangers to grope them - and that was nothing compared to the conversation they had.
Outcast Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 It is like holding a salmon in your hand and waving it at a grzzly bear. Um. No it's not. Unless you honestly mean to equate all men with animals who act on instinct alone and who have no ability to understand right from wrong.
whichwayisup Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 They asked men and women; 1) If they think women who wear revealing clothes was partly to blame. 34% said yes What if MEN who were flirty and cute, was partly to blame if they were raped by someone of the same sex? Did he ask for it? 2) If a woman gets drunk is she partly to blame for being raped? 31% said yes! If a man was drunk, is he partly to blame for being raped by a member of the same sex? Did he ask for it? 3) If a woman is known to have slept with quite a few people. 19% said yes!! If a man, gay or straight, slept with many, either women or men, is he partly blamed for being raped by someone of the same sex? Even weirder, 5% of women and 3% of men said a woman is FULLY to blame for being raped if shes drunk:eek: . You got to be bloody joking! Does anyone out there have this opinion, that certain women are "asking for it"? If so were in major trouble. It's crazy and pure bullcrap! Which is why I posed my questions, just to see what others say and how they react. Let's say a 14 year GIRL is heading to her first grade 9 Prom. She is dressed up, looking cute, bit of make-up...All giggly and happy too. Some guy walking down the street sees her, hears her laughing and being bubbley with her friends...He somehow manages to get her away from her friends, rapes her. IS IT HER FAULT????????????????? f*** NO, Ofcourse not! So, why would be a woman's fault???? Would it be a man's fault if he looked sexy to someone else, and they thought "Hey, I want that" and BOOM! He gets raped! IS it HIS fault?? f*** NO!
westernxer Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 Provocative woman are asking to be fuucked, not raped.
whichwayisup Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 What's the difference? I've not read the whole thread, so unless I missed the point of it all, I think there really isn't a difference, except that saying "f***ed" doesn't sound as nasty as "raped."
westernxer Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 What's the difference? One is consensual, the other is coercive. Actually, I can't say whether they're asking for a shag, even though, deep down, I'd like to believe that they're begging me for it. </ego>
whichwayisup Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 One is consensual, the other is coercive. But rape isn't consensual or coercive. Actually, I can't say whether they're asking for a shag, even though, deep down, I'd like to believe that they're begging me for it. </ego> Write a novel or a movie about it! LOL!
westernxer Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 But rape isn't consensual or coercive. I agree. I was referring to fuucking... excuse me, making love (something you'd never see in a westernxer book or film).
whichwayisup Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 I agree. I was referring to fuucking... excuse me, making love (something you'd never see in a westernxer book or film). Just lots of doggie style, right?
westernxer Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 Just lots of doggie style, right? I'm gonna audition actresses tomorrow, given that I work on Hollywood Blvd. (not on the street corner... haha).
whichwayisup Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 Make sure you get the coffee from STARBUCKS...
lifeasiknowit Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 "The Rape of John Smith" (something I read and am repeating here from what I can remember) A man reports that his wallet was robbed: Officer: So Mr. Smith, when and where were you mugged? Smith: I was out around 11 at night and I was accosted by a man and that's when I was robbed. Officer: Did you willingly give him you're money? Smith: yes Officer: why? Smith: because he threatened to hurt me, possibly kill me and he was much bigger than me. I didn't put up a fight. Officer: Have you given away your money so easily before? With no resistance? Smith: Well, yes. Officer: May I ask what the heck you were doing out late at night by yourself? Do you realize how dangerous it is for a person to be out alone at that time of the day? Smith: I was just leaving a bar. I didn't really think about it. Officer: What were you wearing on the night of the incident? A nice suit and tie, perhaps? Smith: I was wearing a pin stripe suit, a silk tie, dress shirt, leather belt, Armani shoes. Officer. Were you wearing any expensive jewelry? Smith: Oh, I was wearing a Rolex watch. Officer: So you were out late at night, alone, maybe a little drunk as well? Smith: I had a couple of drinks. Is any action going to be taken to find this guy? Officer: No. Smith: May I ask why? Officer: Well, let me see. You were out at night, alone in an area that you knew might be questionable. You have a history of giving out money. You were drunk. And most of all, you were wearing an expensive looking suit and a Rolex watch, so you were practically a billboard advertising to nearby robbers that you were rich, screaming to be robbed! This is not the fault of the man who mugged you, but yourself, so nothing can be done.
Author loveheart59 Posted November 23, 2005 Author Posted November 23, 2005 Exactly, there was a case where a woman went onto a train with a see through skirt on and no knickers and a see through top. She got raped but the judge threw the case out because he said she "was asking for troble":( People tend to have funny opinions on rape because its quite a common fantasy with men and women so stuff gets muddled up. I never really understood, UNDERSTOOD rape until I was friends with people who had been, particularly childhood rape which has pretty gruesome, bloody scenes described to me by my friend. There was a study in America recently when they asked guys at Yale university: " If rape was legal would you do it?" 9/10 said yes. I do believe they were thinking with thier erotic minds when in fact rapist dont rape for pleasure, they do it for power. Also I think they missed the point that if rape was legal they could get raped, their sister, brother, mother and them too. I think people sometimes watch too many fake rape scenes in porno "where everyones alright in the end" and mistake sexual violence for submissiveness and being assertive. Men and womens real views on rape are pretty different from person to person.
AlmostMarried77 Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 If the question was "Can some women be stupid and very unlucky" then i would have to say yes. You can't blame a woman for rape, no one asks to be raped, like no one asks to be robbed. Yes, some women might get themselves drunk and in a situation that leaves them very vunerable and they should be considered stupid for getting into that situation whether a rape occurs or not. However this does not excuse the actions of the rapist. Anyway, the survey is nonsense. Only 1000 people questioned, no break down into demographic groupings and then no actual rape statistics to compare with public perceptions. And lets face it, most peoples perceptions of rape will be from what they've "learnt" from TV and the newspapers. And about the title of the thread - how can anyone ask to be raped? Surely the very act of asking gives consent
Judas Christian Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 Again, rapists are out there. Women know rapists are out there. In the ideal world, there would be no rape, nobody would be screwed up enough in the head to want that power trip or want to harm anyone. However, this is the real world and in the real world there are rapists. Make whatever argument you want, but when a woman goes into the real world wearing see-through clothing and nothing underneath, right or wrong, she is asking for trouble, because she knows as well as any of us that there are rapists out there. Should the case have been thrown out? No, the man still raped her, it's still a crime. But I can also understand why the judge had little or no sympathy for her as well - what she did was both stupid and ignorant.
lifeasiknowit Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 Is there no such thing as self control? The women dressed provocatively is responsible for another person's sexual aggressiveness? Oh, he couldn't help it. Come on! There was a case of an Aboriginal woman who was also a prostitute (Aboriginal women as well as women with disabilities and other marginalized identities are more likey to be raped according to statistics) who was raped and murdered and when the case went to court, the judge advised the jury for them to consider the fact that this woman happened to also be a prostitute. The thing was she wasn't murdered "on the job" per se, but basically kidnapped, raped and murdered. And what the hell does her being a prostitute have anything to do with it? It is a power thing. Women who have almost no status in our society, no money or means to support themselves or are discriminated against are often the ones with a higher chance of being raped. They are more vulnerable. Young women are also more likely to be raped. 14% of all reported assaults are children. I wouldn't really respect a woman who walked around wearing a see-through outfit, but I don't blame her for being raped, I blame the rapist. Also, I read somewhere that most rapists rape because they are power hungry, so most of the time it doesn't matter what the woman is wearing or looks like as long as he can overpower her which is a huge turn on. Some rapists can't get it up unless they feel like they are over powering the woman. Also, everyone has different ideas of what is too sexy. One woman in one of my classes told me this story about when she was travelling in southern France in her 20's. She was wearing a tank top and shorts down to her knees and she was groped (her breasts and between her legs) by a stranger on the street. She screamed and pushed him away and there was a police officer right across the street from her. When she told him what happened (he saw it all happen anyways) he basically told her, what do you expect? Look at what you're wearing. what the hell? Another point: have you ever watched movies where the sex scenes are aggressive, sometimes violent? It's part of our culture to believe that women like aggressive sex, that they want it. I'm reminded of Mr. and Mrs. Smith. They are trying to kill each other with honkin huge guns in this scene and then have wild aggressive sex. I can think of many movies where there are scenes of aggressive sex.
Author loveheart59 Posted November 23, 2005 Author Posted November 23, 2005 And about the title of the thread - how can anyone ask to be raped? Surely the very act of asking gives consent The title of the thread refers to some peoples way of speaking about women who they like but cant have. example: "she wants it", "you know you wanted it", "shes looking to get bent over", "shes asking for it"...etc If a woman has little clothes on, even if she has no thoughts of sex on her mind some guys see her and assume thats what she wants......hence the thread title!
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