Enmeshed with ex?

[Starfish82]

22 hours ago, MsJayne said:

I think you've made the right call. I was in a similar situation with my now-partner at the beginning of our relationship, and it wasn't that he maintained a relationship with his ex-step-daughter that was the actual problem, it was the dynamics of the relationship that made me uncomfortable because I could see that he was being manipulated and used and it ground my gears that he couldn't, (or wouldn't), see it. I think maybe that's what's going on for you, it's not the child or the relationship that bothers you, it's the manipulation and the idea that his ex is still pulling his strings and he's too blind to see it. In my case, my partner eventually acknowledged that I wasn't the first person he'd dated who had told him his relationship with his ex's daughter had toxic undertones, and their 'closeness' faded very quickly after the first time he told her that he, (panel beater/mechanic), wasn't going to repair and maintain her car for free any more. She stopped speaking to him, and that was pretty much the end of their relationship, so my point was proven. In your case, if you interfere with your guy's relationship with a four year old, you'll end up looking bad, it's something he has to realise for himself. No self-respecting person will put up with their partner playing along with a manipulative ex, and that's what's going on, it's not about the child. It has to be his own choice to back off a bit to make way for a life that doesn't have his ex playing a starring role. Stick to your guns, his next girlfriend will very likely give him the same message, and the next, and then it may sink in. The other aspect is, if his ex is in a relationship, how might her new partner feel about her ex being such a huge part of their lives? 

Thank you, yes this is exactly what I'm afraid of. To my mind the ex is clearly being manipulating in this situation. I can see why it benefits the ex, as a single mum, to keep another man around who might be willing help her / pay for things even if she didn't want him back, but she also does have a long track record of wanting him back! And maybe this is just my petty jealousy but I HATE the idea of another woman being able to call on my bf to do boyfriend things like fix her car, do DIY, rescue her from a breakdown or bailing her out if she's broke, especially if they used to have sex.

He is so blind that when I said to him she's manipulating you, he said "no! It's me who really wants to see the goddaughter". But that's how manipulation works, it makes you think you're getting something you want while actually it's the other person getting what they want.  It's no coincidence I think that he has been single the past 5 years, ever since he became godfather - there's a clear link between the two. It's keeping him single, the ex has succeeded in keeping him from moving on even if she can't get him back. Another thing he's oblivious to.

Another thing that bothers me is he said he wishes the little girl was really his. Well there's one way to do that - marry the ex and adopt the child! Probably what she's banking on 

 

 

[Wiseman2]

34 minutes ago, Starfish82 said:

 we didn't date long and I only had a couple conversations about this before I felt so uncomfortable I pulled the plug. 

Exactly. You were seeing each other 8 weeks and it's much better to cut your losses than try to wrap your head around these types of convoluted triangles. He may be a nice guy for being involved in this child's life, but that doesn't mean he's appropriate BF or relationship material. It seems too many people try to stick around too long trying to make sense out of nonsense. 

Edited January 10, 2024 by Wiseman2

[Gaeta]

46 minutes ago, Starfish82 said:

Thanks for all the useful replies everyone! 

In terms of more details, honestly we didn't date long and I only had a couple conversations about this before I felt so uncomfortable I pulled the plug. 

I don't really know what happens on the visits, it's most likely a mix of activities with the child and interactions in some way with the ex. I asked him if there are any rules/boundaries around how interactions with the ex and he couldn't answer the question, he kept saying what do you mean? which I took to mean basically there are no rules, which makes me think he does whatever he feels like in the moment, whether that's stopping for a coffee and chat, or go out for a meal or who knows! And there being no rules I guess it happens both when her partner is present and when he isn't. It's all arranged directly with her so she if she want's him to come by when she's alone she can easily arrange it.

In terms of their previous relationship, it lasted 3 years. He says he broke up with her every year of those 3 years because he knew it wasn't going anywhere and she kept chasing him to get back together each time, and then finally she chased him again with the godfather thing. So she has chased him for 4+ years straight and he has given into her at least 3 times (that I know of). I never got round to asking him about if they ever hooked up post-breakup, let's face it that's not uncommon between exes, so it could have been more than that. 

Why I don't feel a priority - again we didn't date long enough to have direct experience of this as we had not got to the committed bf/gf stage. But I was worried I would not be a priority in a relationship. So I asked him how it would work when he had a girlfriend. What if the gf wants to make plans for a weekend or do something spontaneous and it's the goddaughter's bday/school play/whatever event - his answer: I'll do whatever I agreed to do first. What if the ex calls up with some emergency and needs him to fix her boiler/bail her out/give her money because it would impact on the wellbeing of the goddaughter - his answer was I might not rush out in the middle of the night but we'll talk about it in the morning. Any further attempts to get a clear answer  about what his order of priorities was met with "that's never going to happen!" and other versions of this which didn't answer the question. 

Basically he does not want to have to choose and wants to make everyone happy - but my point is, him being so involved means sooner or later there will be a conflict with the plans, desires and priorities in his relationship with his gf, and what would he choose in that situation? I cannot get a clear answer which means it's probably an answer I don't want to hear.

So you asked him what were the rules concerning his visits with the child and he did not understand the question, instead of giving him examples of what you meant you assumed a bunch of stuff based on nothing. 

You don't count the years they were dating and breaking up. You count from when he left and moved away, that was 5 years ago and they never got back together after that. 

You said twice that you did not feel a priority but now you're saying you have not dated enough to get there so....you assumed you would not be a priority. There was nothing wrong with the way he would handle having a girlfriend. I will not cancel a recital or concert of my niece and nephew to please my boyfriend. Being in a relationship does not mean you are  no longer a godmother, an aunt, a cousin, a friend to other people. What did you really want to hear from him? that he would drop in a heartbeat  a promise made to a 4 yo ?

Everything I put in bold are things out of your imagination. Things you *assume* would happen. 

It's ok you don't want to date him BUT for goodness sake, just stick to the facts. You wrote a whole novel out of things you *assume* would/could happen. 

[Gaeta]

53 minutes ago, Starfish82 said:

as a single mum, to keep another man around who might be willing help her / pay for things even if she didn't want him back,

Didn't you say that she is now in a long term relationship?

 

54 minutes ago, Starfish82 said:

I HATE the idea of another woman being able to call on my bf to do boyfriend things like fix her car, do DIY, rescue her from a breakdown or bailing her out if she's broke,

Again, didn't you say she is in a relationship?

 

55 minutes ago, Starfish82 said:

It's no coincidence I think that he has been single the past 5 years, ever since he became godfather - there's a clear link between the two. It's keeping him single, the ex has succeeded in keeping him from moving on even if she can't get him back. Another thing he's oblivious to.

You assume this, base on what? 8 weeks dating a man that you said yourself you did not get to know him really enough to know...anything about him. 

[IrinaM]

1 hour ago, Wiseman2 said:

He may be a nice guy for being involved in this child's life, but that doesn't mean he's appropriate BF or relationship material. It seems too many people try to stick around too long trying to make sense out of nonsense. 

agree. Plus- jme- a lot of people try to paint their crappy boundaries as "I'm so nice." Let's face it, it's not like this guy loves children so much that he volunteers at the local boys and girls club or is a foster parent. Those would be reasonable steps to take if one wants to do something altruistic for a child. Not agree to be a godparent to your ex's kid (who is, allegedly, a lovesick stalker).

The scenarios OP asked about are, in fact, likely to happen moving forward. And I think the outcomes are pretty easy to predict. It's pretty reasonable to infer this man will remain enmeshed in his ex's life, as he seems to find it emotionally fulfilling.

[NuevoYorko]

I don't understand why you are still going over all of this when you and the guy are already in the rear view mirror.   You dated for a short while and then you made the decision that was best for you.   

Some of us would have been okay with it and others would not - you were not.

 

[Acacia98]

1 hour ago, Gaeta said:

It's ok you don't want to date him BUT for goodness sake, just stick to the facts. You wrote a whole novel out of things you *assume* would/could happen. 

If she were talking about an abusive man or a gambler, would the fact that five years had elapsed mean that she should not be concerned about what he had done in the past?And wouldn't it be normal for her to imagine the sorts of things he might do in different scenarios before ultimately deciding she didn't want to risk being with him?

Edited January 10, 2024 by Acacia98

[Gaeta]

18 minutes ago, Acacia98 said:

If she were talking about an abusive man or a gambler, would the fact that five years had elapsed mean that she should not be concerned about what he had done in the past?And wouldn't it be normal for her to imagine the sorts of things he might do in different scenarios before ultimately deciding she didn't want to risk being with him?

But what bad did he do exactly? He was in an on and off relationship for 3 years, went away one year, never got back with her ever since that was 5 years ago. 

We're not talking addiction or abuse here, he had a hard time after a breakup like none of us ever experience that. 

All the talk about the ex being manipulative, how he'll run to her to fix her water heater, how he'll prioritize the kid over OP, that's all born out of nothing....she did not date him long enough to learn what kind of man he is.

Edited January 10, 2024 by Gaeta

[ShyViolet]

On 1/9/2024 at 3:33 PM, Starfish82 said:

To Gaeta's point I sometimes think that quietly to myself - why am I not able to be supportive? Am I just selfish or unkind?

Nah.  At two months of dating, it's not your job to be supportive of a situation like this.  At two months of dating, you're just getting to know a person and feeling out the situation.  If something doesn't feel right then you pull the plug.  Your gut told you that this situation was just too strange and I absolutely think you made the right call.

 

11 hours ago, Gaeta said:

Why is that viewed as negative?

The man identified something that made him unhappy and he took action to remove it from his life. That tells me he's a man of action. 

I find this to be such a strange take.  He moved to another country just to "get away" from her, then did a 180 and decided to become enmeshed in his ex's life again.  That's not a man of action, that sounds more like drama or poor boundaries.

[Alpacalia]

4 hours ago, Starfish82 said:

Thank you, yes this is exactly what I'm afraid of. To my mind the ex is clearly being manipulating in this situation. I can see why it benefits the ex, as a single mum, to keep another man around who might be willing help her / pay for things even if she didn't want him back, but she also does have a long track record of wanting him back! And maybe this is just my petty jealousy but I HATE the idea of another woman being able to call on my bf to do boyfriend things like fix her car, do DIY, rescue her from a breakdown or bailing her out if she's broke, especially if they used to have sex.

He is so blind that when I said to him she's manipulating you, he said "no! It's me who really wants to see the goddaughter". But that's how manipulation works, it makes you think you're getting something you want while actually it's the other person getting what they want.  It's no coincidence I think that he has been single the past 5 years, ever since he became godfather - there's a clear link between the two. It's keeping him single, the ex has succeeded in keeping him from moving on even if she can't get him back. Another thing he's oblivious to.

Another thing that bothers me is he said he wishes the little girl was really his. Well there's one way to do that - marry the ex and adopt the child! Probably what she's banking on

I would not be so quick to assign 100% blame to the ex's manipulations and 0% to your ex's choices and actions. After all, he is a grown man, who theoretically, is capable of making decisions for himself. And your ex is not without volition here. If he were completely not interested, odds are he wouldn't be doing this. You write your ex is blind; possibly so, but it wouldn't be out of the question there's a part of him who likes the attention or other reward he's getting from playing second father to this child (and by extension providing some support to the mother, whether it is her intention or not).

[MsJayne]

43 minutes ago, Alpacalia said:

I would not be so quick to assign 100% blame to the ex's manipulations and 0% to your ex's choices and actions. After all, he is a grown man, who theoretically, is capable of making decisions for himself. And your ex is not without volition here. If he were completely not interested, odds are he wouldn't be doing this. You write your ex is blind; possibly so, but it wouldn't be out of the question there's a part of him who likes the attention or other reward he's getting from playing second father to this child (and by extension providing some support to the mother, whether it is her intention or not).

Yes! His desire to play a father role is a very important factor, and also yes to it not being 100% his ex's idea. I'm thinking what @Starfish82 was told was his tailored narrative, and maybe he's left out some vital information, possibly that he in fact was the dumpee rather than the dumper, because that would make this add up, whereas happily agreeing to a life-long bond with a stalky, still-in-love ex who you had to leave the country to get away from, doesn't. He can't tell new partners if he was the dumpee because he'd go from looking like the kindly, doting God-father to looking like some puppy-eyed orbiter using his god-parent status to keep his foot well in the ex's door. 

[Acacia98]

3 hours ago, Gaeta said:

But what bad did he do exactly? He was in an on and off relationship for 3 years, went away one year, never got back with her ever since that was 5 years ago. 

We're not talking addiction or abuse here, he had a hard time after a breakup like none of us ever experience that. 

All the talk about the ex being manipulative, how he'll run to her to fix her water heater, how he'll prioritize the kid over OP, that's all born out of nothing....she did not date him long enough to learn what kind of man he is.

I don't think the discussion is about him being bad. I think it's about him engaging in actions that pose a threat to the development of a romantic relationship. He comes across as someone whose boundaries are weak. And that is problematic for anyone contemplating a relationship with him. That observation rings true even if one ignores OP's speculations and limits oneself to the man's own biased description of his relationship with his ex.

Let's consider a more neutral cause of incompatibility if abuse and addiction are too negative: if OP and the man had had religious differences instead, it would have been legitimate for her to speculate about the kinds of dilemmas that might arise due to those differences. If the man had been unwilling to discuss those differences in depth, then it would have been understandable if OP had felt that there would be unsurmountable problems in their future and had proceeded to end the relationship.

On the matter of all of us having experienced bad breakups in the past: yes, that's true. And if I'm completely honest with myself, my inability to completely move on from a relationship that wasn't working had a lot to do with my having weak boundaries. If I had insisted on maintaining a close friendship with the guy with whom I had admittedly had weak boundaries in the past, it would have made sense for any new guy I was dating to have second thoughts about continuing to date me.

Edited January 11, 2024 by Acacia98

[ExpatInItaly]

7 hours ago, Alpacalia said:

I would not be so quick to assign 100% blame to the ex's manipulations and 0% to your ex's choices and actions

Exactly. 

He has made choices that contributed to this situation. It is not only a question of her maybe being manipulative, but also of him wanting to be part of this arrangement as well. 

In any event, it didn't sit well with you. Therefore, it was the right choice to shelve this relationship.