Am I toxic or is he gaslighting me?

[beebop_it]

He and I had a liaison 8 years ago. I was madly in love. When we first met -the best date I've ever had - nothing happened between us, but he also failed to mention that he was in a relationship. I found out weeks later, despite our never ending daily whatsapp chats -again, nothing physical ever happened in that period -... I found out when I spotted him out with her. Back then I told him I didn't want a relationship with someone who was committed to someone else, and broke it off. 3 weeks later, he texted me that he broke up with his girlfriend because he wanted to keep dating me. So we started going out again. I felt very insecure at the time, I didn't trust him, I was afraid he was still with his girlfriend (and also thought he was out of my league). The fact that we'd meet in random days and he'd avoid meeting my friends or introducing me to his wasn't helping. But honestly , we'd been together for just a couple of months. The idea that I was a "homewrecker" was driving me crazy, but I never told him because I was afraid to lose him. The anxiety however translated in mood swings and paranoia. I reckon I made it hard for him. After three months of dating we broke up, I was "too much". Been kicking myself ever since. Fast forward to 8 years later, we find each other again... Only that he has two sons with that exact woman... Whom he split up with one year ago, he says. But they still live together "because she's not financially independent and for the kids. But we're not together anymore".

When he told me I froze. Then I decided to believe him.

I decided to believe him because I've been kicking myself for 8 years for not making it work back then. It's not easy, tho. We've been hanging out for two weeks now, two perfect dates. Tonight I asked him to spend the night at my place when he comes visit the coming Saturday. He said he couldn't. I proposed the same idea for nthe following week. Again, he can't. I asked why, honestly thinking "his partner is at home with the kids, what is the problem? Is it that he can't explain why he spent the night out?". I know. I'm sorry I went back to that. 

"I have to stay with the kids in the morning". "Oh, ok!".

I was fine with his reply. I was pacified. Then he went on: 

"Jeez, poor you, what did you get yourself into?"; "No, don't worry, I don't mind the kids"; "So what is it that worries you?"; "I just though it was weird that you can't spend the night here"; "what are you afraid of?"; "That I might bee the other woman. But thanks for explaining, you know at times I risk to spiral, so I'd rather clear my doubts and get the rational answer, instead of getting paranoid". His reply was "I knew you'd be like this once again. I didn't expect that you'd be so difficult when it's just a couple of weeks we're dating again. I hate this mood".

I get it. I know I took the decision to trust him and now I should. And I'm sorry that I doubted his reason for not staying over. And I'm probably pushing too much, we just started hanging out again. But I swear that I asked only because I'm trying not to repeat the same mistakes I made 8 years ago, bottling up emotions and fears until they explode. I tried to explain this, but he went back to "you didn't change, it's always the same with you". 

I felt it was disproportionate, both what he said and the way he said it. I wasn't yelling, I wasn't rude, I just asked.

I ate it up. Now I keep rolling in bed (Europe, here), just wondering: am I toxic or is he gaslighting me?

Sorry for the long post and the broken English. 

Thanks if you got here and feel like giving me some advice. 

Edited September 6, 2023 by beebop_it
Bad English

[basil67]

Your English is great!

He's gaslighting you.   Thing is, if he had to be there for the kids in the morning, he could have stayed over but left at 6am to get home for caring duties.  But no.  The truth is that he's got to go home to his partner.

Do your family or friends know what's going on?  I hope you've got some support around you

[Wiseman2]

13 minutes ago, beebop_it said:

 they still live together "because she's not financially independent and for the kids. 

Sorry this happened. Please delete and block him permanently. I think you already know he's lying again. Please free yourself from this so you can have peace and find decent honest single men.

[stillafool]

30 minutes ago, beebop_it said:

Only that he has two sons with that exact woman... 

You knew he had a gf back when you saw them with their kids.  Why were you surprised that he couldn't spend the night with you?  Did he ever take you or invite you to his place?  Did he take you to his place the first time when you guys were dating?

[beebop_it]

11 minutes ago, stillafool said:

You knew he had a gf back when you saw them with their kids.  Why were you surprised that he couldn't spend the night with you?  Did he ever take you or invite you to his place?  Did he take you to his place the first time when you guys were dating?

8 years ago we were in our mid 20ies and he didn't have kids. He had his kids in the past 5 years, while we were apart and I was abroad. I've just come back to my home country and he asked to meet again. I was reluctant, knowing he was in a relationship, but he did explain that he and the mother of his kids are not an item anymore, despite living under the same roof. I thought he could spend the night at my place because I assumed the mother was with the kids and knew he was out. I freaked thinking that maybe she doesn't know. And what would the reason be for her not knowing?

I'm sorry I wasn't clear, it's all quite tangled.

[Wiseman2]

2 minutes ago, beebop_it said:

. And what would the reason be for her not knowing?

Because he's cheating on her again. Please save yourself a lot of headaches, heartaches and humiliation and end it. Your instincts are correct that the entire situation is off.

[beebop_it]

39 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Your English is great!

He's gaslighting you.   Thing is, if he had to be there for the kids in the morning, he could have stayed over but left at 6am to get home for caring duties.  But no.  The truth is that he's got to go home to his partner.

Do your family or friends know what's going on?  I hope you've got some support around you

Hey, thanks for replying. I told my sister: she says I'm rushing things and I'm going to scare him away. I would like this to work, but feel like I keep ignoring every red flag just for the sake of giving it a fair chance. At the same time, I've been running from relationships for years because I'm afraid of getting hurt, so I don't understand if I've just become avoiding (avoidant?) And simply too insecure to be with anyone. 

[beebop_it]

3 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Because he's cheating on her again. Please save yourself a lot of headaches, heartaches and humiliation and end it. Your instincts are correct that the entire situation is off.

Thank you. Good to know that someone thinks I'm not crazy.

[basil67]

I can't speak to the rest of your relationships, but your concerns about this guy are valid.   

And given that he's clearly in a relationship, I can't begin to understand your sister's reasoning

[beebop_it]

Thank you, really.

[MsJayne]

2 hours ago, beebop_it said:

His reply was "I knew you'd be like this once again. I didn't expect that you'd be so difficult when it's just a couple of weeks we're dating again. I hate this mood".

Yep, that's gas-lighting. Your concerns are very valid, he's trying to make them invalid by implying that there's something wrong with your perception. 

2 hours ago, beebop_it said:

I tried to explain this, but he went back to "you didn't change, it's always the same with you". 

And there he goes again........

Bottling up of emotions until you feel like exploding is actually a symptom of dating a chronic gas-lighter. You don't tell them your concerns because you know you're going to be invalidated and dismissed. It's this simple, his behaviour is very questionable, so you questioned it. 

2 hours ago, beebop_it said:

I reckon I made it hard for him.

Made what hard for him? Juggling two women and lying to both of them? 

If he can't see why you're concerned, ie; he has a track record of being deceitful towards his partner, then he lacks empathy. So, my answer is no, you're not toxic, but he certainly is. 

[Versacehottie]

5 hours ago, basil67 said:

Your English is great!

He's gaslighting you.   Thing is, if he had to be there for the kids in the morning, he could have stayed over but left at 6am to get home for caring duties.  But no.  The truth is that he's got to go home to his partner.

Do your family or friends know what's going on?  I hope you've got some support around you

I agree totally with basil! Your English is great!! (wouldn't have even guessed that you aren't a native speaker).

Anyway to the problem at hand, this guy is not honest. I wouldn't even get all tied up into labeling it gaslighting--because then you will want him to stop that behavior--when all you really need to know is he's not being honest. It's been 8 years and HE finally has another chance with YOU and you still can't trust him. I'd keep the focus on the most simple point of all--he's not relationship material. It goes beyond what your connection is with each other. You will never be able to trust him. 

On one hand perhaps 2 dates in is a little earlier to expect a sleepover (for a lot of reasons, even if you've already had sex which I'm assuming you have)..mainly bc he might have other responsibilities, like the kids for real but still...I don't buy the story of why he lives with the ex and all that. He lied to you before. Seems like he is lying now. That's all you need to know. I think your life is worth more than giving some like him a second chance, he's just not worth it. Also even if it was early to expect a sleepover, he has a prior obligation to try to build trust with you based on before and he didn't take it. I'd say as a neutral outsider that is because he's exactly the same guy, doing the same things. You are just never going to get honesty from this one. If you really want to test things, tell him to reach back out to you when the ex no longer lives with him and stop all contact until that happens. I wouldn't even waste my time with that but if you need to see it "to the end" that's one way to do it. Just realize that ANY attention you put into him--whether it's in an active mode such as dating him or if you tell him to try you when he no longer lives with her, keeps you in a "waiting" mode. You've already essentially been in a waiting mode for 8 years. You can't make room for anyone new if you still believe he's the one that got away and you don't clear the slate for someone new...like really clear it (cut ties for good). 

I know you are a new person here but I rarely say "cut it off, the guy is a liar" and yet I'm saying it about your guy. I wouldn't waste another second on him. A relationship is about more than having a good connection. If you don't have trust, you don't have anything. Good luck

[Versacehottie]

5 hours ago, beebop_it said:

At the same time, I've been running from relationships for years because I'm afraid of getting hurt, so I don't understand if I've just become avoiding (avoidant?) And simply too insecure to be with anyone. 

This guy is prob part of the reason you might be having insecure feelings. It 99% won't be better with him. He's contributing to that feeling you may have by being in your life and your thoughts all this time. WHEN you clear the slate to meet someone new who you can trust, you won't feel like this and you will feel like a much more secure person. Even in the time you haven't been with him, you can start to feel insecure because you don't trust yourself for the choices you've made and the way you "feel" or think you feel. If you take decisive action based on what you want, your security will grow. What you should tell yourself is that you want "a guy who loves you and that you trust immensely"...And the fact that this guy doesn't fit these qualities is the reason you should say BYE and be done with him. If you don't make it about "him" it will be easier to do. Probably you feel like it's hard to let him go because you think he's special when you think of who he is. You are putting the focus on something outside of you--that you can't control and are only chasing a connection. If you put the focus on you--what you need, what you want, what is acceptable and what isn't, it will be so easy to let this guy go. He doesn't live up to what you want, period.

[Alpacalia]

Yes, he is using your fears and an insecure moment to destabilize you and make you question your own feelings and actions. Of course, gaslighting is bad but big picture is that he was in a relationship with someone else when you two met, and he's potentially still in a relationship with his two children's mother.

This obviously throws red flags into the air.

If someone cheats on another person and the other person decides to forgive and give it another go, the least you can expect is honesty and transparency and he's not providing either.

In a relationship built on genuine care, individuals often take a moment to introspect about their past actions and acknowledge any pain they might have inflicted. They might think to themselves, "I deeply hurt this woman through my past betrayal, and I'm committed to ensuring her sense of safety and security." 

He isn't making these efforts, and it strongly implies it's a good indication that if you take things further it won't be different and would lead to different feelings of insecurity. If you choose to stay with him you will always be questioning where you stand and the pain will only increase. His past actions and behavior is pre-conditioned to play down his wrongs as well as a way of protecting himself from getting hurt or having to face the truth of his past misconduct.

It's his behaviour and lack of genuine understanding and consideration that's toxic, not you.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Alpacalia

[JTSW]

Your story sounds very familiar.

Girl, this guy is clearly lying all the time and I'm so baffled why you are with him.

He is very clearly still in a relationship with his kids mother, hence why he won't stay overnight with you.

You're not crazy but you do need to wake up to reality here.

You're questioning yourself when none of this is on you.

Don't waste your time on this douche.

[Acacia98]

You have really good instincts, @beebop_it. The problem is that you don't trust them. You need to learn to listen to what your instincts are telling you about a person, especially when the actions of the person in question clearly indicate that he is not being trustworthy.

It seems to me that your actual problem is not this guy. It's your low self-esteem. Also, I hope you understand that you don't have to be in a relationship with anyone. If dating makes you anxious, set it aside and focus on yourself (and by this, I mean you should seriously consider getting counselling and find other ways of building yourself up so that you know that you deserve better than whatever this guy is offering). 

[ExpatInItaly]

12 hours ago, beebop_it said:

I told my sister: she says I'm rushing things and I'm going to scare him away.

Wow. Your sister gives bad advice. 

If I were your sister, I'd be telling you (nay, pleading with you) to wake up and stop pretending you don't know what's really going on here. And then run for the hills.

He's obviousy still in a relationship with his kids' mom. It was a mistaketo choose to believe him and try again. Where is your self-respect, girl? 

Edited September 7, 2023 by ExpatInItaly

[stillafool]

Do you live with your sister?

[beebop_it]

We haven't had sex yet: I'm really attracted to him and on one side I'd love to, trust me, but sex is important to me (let's say I have underlying conditions?) and I don't do it lightly (although I wish I could). 

That's what triggered me: we were planning to meet at my place and it was kind of a given that it would happen... So I wanted him to stay after. 

I don't know if it's being irrational or too demanding and clingy - I just feel like that.

I don't live with my sister anymore, she's been in a relationship with her partner for 20 years - in fact I think she simply wants me to find somebody and she probably believes that if I were a bit "cooler" with the situation, things would work out by themselves. 

I just see myself heading for heartbreak and I don't know if I can take it. At the same time, I feel lame about it: I'm never gonna gain anything if I'm not willing to risk anything.

I see you all tend to agree that this situation is off. I even went back to my original post a few times, trying to understand if I depicted the whole interaction in a way that is flattering to me, making him look bad, but I truly don't think I did. 

The last point is that I was ok until yesterday, I didn't feel this attached or emotional, but I'm a wreck since he hinted that I have no right to feel like this, and I am now double guessing myself on every word I told him. I don't want to feel like this. I consider myself a decent person, I'm a hard worker and have grown so much since 8 years ago: it's not healthy that suddenly I'm back to being an insecure, whiny, poor little thing. 

I have to let go. It's just excruciating, because I've always thought he was the one who got away and deep down I think I'm wasting my chance.

I can't tell you all how grateful I am for your replies, for taking the time to read all this and trying to support a total stranger.

Hope you all are fine and happy

[ExpatInItaly]

31 minutes ago, beebop_it said:

I'm never gonna gain anything if I'm not willing to risk anything

You have to get better at risk assessment, though. 

The risk here is far too great that you will get tremendously hurt. I think this man sees how vulnerable you are and how much you desperately want to believe his nonsense, and he takes full advantage of you for it. 

You sound like a kind, sensitive and loving woman. Don't waste that on this clown. 

[beebop_it]

40 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

You have to get better at risk assessment, though.

This.

it's ok. I broke it off. He was right in a sense, it is all like 8 years ago, I'm just not down for it anymore. 

Thank you all again!

[Versacehottie]

1 hour ago, beebop_it said:

We haven't had sex yet: I'm really attracted to him and on one side I'd love to, trust me, but sex is important to me (let's say I have underlying conditions?) and I don't do it lightly (although I wish I could). 

That's what triggered me: we were planning to meet at my place and it was kind of a given that it would happen... So I wanted him to stay after. 

I don't know if it's being irrational or too demanding and clingy - I just feel like that.

I don't live with my sister anymore, she's been in a relationship with her partner for 20 years - in fact I think she simply wants me to find somebody and she probably believes that if I were a bit "cooler" with the situation, things would work out by themselves. 

I just see myself heading for heartbreak and I don't know if I can take it. At the same time, I feel lame about it: I'm never gonna gain anything if I'm not willing to risk anything.

I see you all tend to agree that this situation is off. I even went back to my original post a few times, trying to understand if I depicted the whole interaction in a way that is flattering to me, making him look bad, but I truly don't think I did. 

The last point is that I was ok until yesterday, I didn't feel this attached or emotional, but I'm a wreck since he hinted that I have no right to feel like this, and I am now double guessing myself on every word I told him. I don't want to feel like this. I consider myself a decent person, I'm a hard worker and have grown so much since 8 years ago: it's not healthy that suddenly I'm back to being an insecure, whiny, poor little thing. 

I have to let go. It's just excruciating, because I've always thought he was the one who got away and deep down I think I'm wasting my chance.

I can't tell you all how grateful I am for your replies, for taking the time to read all this and trying to support a total stranger.

Hope you all are fine and happy

No judgement on whether you have or have not had sex with him yet but just giving you more objective feedback on the facts as I see them as an outsider. Don't you think if you dated solidly 8 years ago for 3 months that it would have happened at that time? I sort of get why it hasn't happened right now after just 2 dates once you reconnected...but again that gives me the idea that he was cheating or flirting behind his real partner's back 8 years ago (and surely now too). I'd guess he enjoys the idea that you are crazy about him and it's an ego boost (as a primary motivator for him) when it's this set of circumstances.

I'm curious why you asked in your title if you were "toxic"? I didn't see anything remotely like that in your posts from your side. 

With your (bolded) comment about "risk" i think you just need to reframe it and think about it from a variety of perspectives--not just the one you've been thinking about it from, ie right now you are thinking about "risk" as giving him a chance/going after what your heart thinks it wants....but risk is also, the courage to cut it off, the courage to meet new people, the courage to do hard things or things that aren't easy but will lead you to a better place. Like what you did by breaking it off today---that's good risk. Try to think of yourself as an information gatherer and weigh up the evidence you get along the way on someone against what you want in a relatioship...it's bigger than any one person--it's what you want and need to be happy and what will make you happy long term. So under that description, people aren't really "the one" unless they CONTINUALLY are meeting your standards of what you hold in your mind as the type of relationship that will make you happy and secure. The most important person is you--vs "obtaining" a relationship with someone you've deemed the right one for you. A guy is ONLY the right one if he continually meets your criteria--and that is fluid, meaning he has to keep it up,  You are going to choose yourself first and always. Obviously, my advice is a bit more selfish than what people normally think of healthy, balanced relationships--but I think if people have a tendency to put others first or operating on "hope" etc, then it's a usefully way to push you more onto a healthier end of the spectrum to achieve a balanced, healthy relationship.

I think it's great that you are a hard worker, etc...but i would guess those qualities don't have much bearing on relationship stuff. What I get from reading that thought of yours, is that perhaps you feel like you do everything right/well-intentioned/honestly and wonder why it doesn't get you the same back? Or get you what you want.  I'd guess you aren't communicating your value/worth well enough so that has to be priority number one. A guy is only worthy of being your boyfriend (or more) dependent on how he treats you and that's what you have to strive for. This guy will probably have purpose in your life in terms of the lessons you learn from the situation--not necessarily that you were meant to be with him. When you are with the right person, it will all make sense why it happened the way it did. Congratulations on cutting it off for him. Stay strong. I think for breakups give yourself a limit: a handful of days--no more--to feel sad and then keep yourself busy and moving forward. I'd be surprised if it didn't feel like a relief in some ways. Good luck

[mark clemson]

20 hours ago, beebop_it said:

 I've been running from relationships for years because I'm afraid of getting hurt, so I don't understand if I've just become avoiding (avoidant?) And simply too insecure to be with anyone. 

If seeing a therapist is an option for you, then you might consider doing that to discuss this point. One can't be emotionally attached to a partner without being "vulnerable" so you will have to take this bull by the horns sooner or later if you want to be in long term relationships.

Whether he is lying about their status or not, he's probably too close to his "baby momma" for it not to interfere with new relationships unless/until they can separate their living arrangements. Unless/until that happens, he's probably a poor choice for a partner now, today, despite how you might feel about the past.

Edited September 7, 2023 by mark clemson

[Rusty78]

On 9/7/2023 at 8:25 AM, beebop_it said:

I would like this to work, but feel like I keep ignoring every red flag just for the sake of giving it a fair chance. At the same time, I've been running from relationships for years because I'm afraid of getting hurt, so I don't understand if I've just become avoiding (avoidant?) And simply too insecure to be with anyone. 

You ignore red flags in men you are attracted to? You were attracted to this man twice he was in a relationship both times, is this common with the men you are attracted to? Are you only attracted to men you can't have? If there is a pattern to the men you want but can't have maybe seek help in IC.

[beebop_it]

On 9/10/2023 at 3:34 AM, Rusty78 said:

You ignore red flags in men you are attracted to? You were attracted to this man twice he was in a relationship both times, is this common with the men you are attracted to? Are you only attracted to men you can't have? If there is a pattern to the men you want but can't have maybe seek help in IC.

Yes, that's kind of my pattern. I did go to therapy a couple of years ago. In my early 20es I got in a very traumatic abusive relationship. During that time I experienced severe depression and asked psychological help. I was actually prescribed antidepressants and those + counseling gave me some distance and clarity and I managed to let go and get away (mind you: when I started therapy, I didn't know that my depression depended on my relationship). Back then I didn't realise I was in an abusive relationship, despite the beating and everything, and I've been scared ever since, that I might put myself in a similar situation without realising. This guy, the one from the original post, was my first attempt at a normal relationship a couple of years after I broke it off with the "abuser". I think what made me fall for him back then was how kind and respectful of my timings he was. Eg. Believe me or not, we've never had intercourse. 

I went into therapy again a couple of years ago, I was concerned about falling for unavailable men, and that was explained to me as a pattern. So I've intentionally kept away from unavailable men. 

This is the first time in a few years I fall for it again, I hope it's because of our past and this fantasy I have about this guy, being so kind and respectful to me.

What concerns me now, is the anxiety and attachment I developed since he started implying that if we are failing again, it's because of me. 

I was fairly relaxed until a few days ago.

I broke it off on Thursday. For some reasons, yesterday I was a wreck, chest pain and mood swings and everything. Totally disproportionate compared to the amount of time this last experiemnt lasted.

Go figure.

Today I feel like breathing is a bit easier, hopefully I'll be back to normal in a couple of days. 

Thanks for the advice!