Why is it ok?

[LauraBancroft]

This goes out mainly to the OW's on this forum. Don't take this post as me judging you. I'd like to understand. So why is it ok for your MM's to stay in their marriage and you've pretty much convinced yourself that it is ok, but in all reality he is cheating on you too with his wife. So why is that ok and how do you reason with yourself to be ok with it?

 

Why does he get to sleep with you, leave your bed, then go back home and sleep and do his daily things with his wife. I know in the OW's head that you might justify this with "Well he is obligated to do the daily things with his wife since they are married, but he loves me more". How do you think he loves you more if he continues to keep you as his secret?

 

Again I'm trying to understand how you get around it and justify it. That is all.

[Hot Coco]

Because they really believe he's only there for the kids and that they don't sleep together. They look at him as a poor, innocent victim.

[newbby]

dont agree hot cocoa. not all of us think he is a poor innocent victim, just get caught up in a fantasy relationship. i dont think alot of us either think he loves us more than the wife laura, i think thats why most of us are miserable in the situation, maybe initially we think that, but as time goes on we become trapped in the "where did i go wrong" mentality, when in fact it was always wrong. hot cocoa, whats all this "they"? arent you also sleeping with a mm, or were until recently?

[LauraBancroft]

See this is where we are going to differ, I have a problem with OW's who say that they just got caught up. Why would you get caught up in something you know is off limits? Again not judging, I'm trying to understand. When a MM says he is married that should be the red flag that slaps you in the face full force to keep away and keep it business related or don't keep it at all. Unless he wants to get out of his marriage and even then you wait until he is divorced.

 

The problem is that I have a serious problem with women saying they were manipulated by an MM. It takes two to tango and regardless you are in control of your thoughts and actions no matter how silver tongued that snake is. You are in control and no one can manipulate you unless you allow yourself to be.

 

For those OW that are outright lied to about the MM's relationship status I can understand about those, but when you know that you're getting used and already bought goods, then I am not so sure sympathy should come into play. This may sit sour with a lot of you, but I want to know how you rationalize it. How you get it in your head that that type of relationship is ok. Because honestly if he is going to cheat on his wife with you, then return to her and cheat on you with his wife, then once he leaves his marriage, if ever, he will do it to you too.

[newbby]

yes of course laura. ow do allow themselves to be manipulated, that is completely true. i think each individual case is entirely different. i can only speak for myself. i allowed myself to be manipulated, in retrospect i realise i have severe committment issues. i of course have had them for a long time, but the relationship with mm bought them to light. this i can see only in retrospect though. at the time i believed his lies, but then did i? i dont think i really did. i was looking for a fantasy relationship. i dont know if that is the case for others.

[Lishy]

Marrying the mistress creates a vacancy!

 

OW have nothing to look forward to at all!

[OldEurope]

Because many times the men do in fact divorce, because many times they are in marriages that are dead in the water and should not even go on, because the OW might even like the initial constraints on their seeing each other as a long, emotional getting to know you period (I am speaking of real relationships that develop and are not about sex, which all are not), and because, the dirty secret being, the OW thinks that she just might be able to win him. Because, see point one, some do.

 

Many of these relationships are real, two people are deeply in love, it is not the ideal situation and certainly too high risk to ever be recommended. That said, categorical statements about OW don't hold.

 

PS It is a bit annoying to have these "I'm not judging anyone" threads (which are very judgmental) in the OW forum. The ladies here know, for the most part, that they are in situations most, if not all, should get out of (the happy endings may not be looking here). But the moralizing is boring after some time. I mean, I am not a drunk. Yet, I do not wander into Alcoholics Anonymous websites and say to the people there, "Hey, why do you all insist on getting sauced like that? You know its not good for you!". In other words, women here KNOW that they are not in good situations and the moral high ground from others in not constructive.

[Hot Coco]

dont agree hot cocoa. not all of us think he is a poor innocent victim, just get caught up in a fantasy relationship. i dont think alot of us either think he loves us more than the wife laura, i think thats why most of us are miserable in the situation, maybe initially we think that, but as time goes on we become trapped in the "where did i go wrong" mentality, when in fact it was always wrong. hot cocoa, whats all this "they"? arent you also sleeping with a mm, or were until recently?

 

"They" is most OW. And no. The only MM I sleep with is my H. Go back and read my earlier posts.

[newbby]

oh i see, your a was an ea. sorry.

[LauraBancroft]

Because many times the men do in fact divorce, because many times they are in marriages that are dead in the water and should not even go on, because the OW might even like the initial constraints on their seeing each other as a long, emotional getting to know you period (I am speaking of real relationships that develop and are not about sex, which all are not), and because, the dirty secret being, the OW thinks that she just might be able to win him. Because, see point one, some do.

 

Many of these relationships are real, two people are deeply in love, it is not the ideal situation and certainly too high risk to ever be recommended. That said, categorical statements about OW don't hold.

 

PS It is a bit annoying to have these "I'm not judging anyone" threads (which are very judgmental) in the OW forum. The ladies here know, for the most part, that they are in situations most, if not all, should get out of (the happy endings may not be looking here). But the moralizing is boring after some time. I mean, I am not a drunk. Yet, I do not wander into Alcoholics Anonymous websites and say to the people there, "Hey, why do you all insist on getting sauced like that? You know its not good for you!". In other words, women here KNOW that they are not in good situations and the moral high ground from others in not constructive.

 

OE,

Then don't post a response to threads that you deem annoying. It's as simple as that . You have that option on these boards ya know! Just so you know your post comes off as a little defensive.

 

Newby,

 

I think EA's are much worse than the PA's although one is just as bad as the other, but I know where you're coming from on that one.

[OldEurope]

And to Chere LB,

 

As a former OW, with a happy ending, I will respond to threads such as yours which pigeonhole all OW.

 

Just to let you know that your post comes across as a little OFFensive:laugh:

[Hot Coco]

oh i see, your a was an ea. sorry.

 

No biggie.

[Hot Coco]

OE,

Then don't post a response to threads that you deem annoying. It's as simple as that . You have that option on these boards ya know! Just so you know your post comes off as a little defensive.

 

Newby,

 

I think EA's are much worse than the PA's although one is just as bad as the other, but I know where you're coming from on that one.

 

It can't be than an EA is "worse" AND be "just as bad." It's one or the other...BUT I agree it's not a good thing. We can argue till the cows come home which is worse but it really doesn't matter. They're both morally wrong in my opinion.

[Sunset]

I think both are bad.

 

If someone gets into your heart and your thoughts are on him it's as bad as being in your knickers.

[RainyDayWoman]

 

If someone gets into your heart and your thoughts are on him it's as bad as being in your knickers.

 

 

that's not true. it's unfair to say no one has a right to a private, personal thought and that if they have that thought then they are "bad". it's honorable for a person to see they may be attracted to someone, but have the sense to stay away and keep out of "their knickers."

 

just because you're in a relationship doesn't mean you're dead...every now and then someone might come along that rocks your boat a little....the point is the "good" person stops the boat from rocking--but doesn't have to stop all contact with the real world to stay faithful.

[newbby]

i think that theres a great difference between a private personal thought and an ea, which is what we are talking about here.

[Sunset]

Rainy - what I was trying to say was that if you have contact with a person even if not sexual and they are in your heart and you find yourself thinking about that person in ways you shouldn't then that is in my opinion an emotional affair and is as bad as a physical one. That they are both as bad.

 

My short comment probably didn't explain properly what I was trying to say, of course everyone can have private thoughts but an emotional affair goes further than that in level of feelings and that is wrong.

 

It must be or those who didn't 'consumate' the affair wouldn't be on here voicing concerns.

 

Good on those who had the good sense to not go further than an ea and I mean that sincerely, but it's only one small step (or should that be jump) away from a pa.

[RainyDayWoman]

i think that theres a great difference between a private personal thought and an ea

 

exactly....that was my point. a person who does "the right thing" does not even let it get to the ea. it stays in their own heads and hopefully goes away.

[sooooohurt]

Laura nobody said it was ok, I don’t think anyone is proud of the situation they are in.

Do you really think when I was a child I was drawing pictures of a house with me, mm his wife and their kids outside?

Do you think when I was in high school I didn’t watch talk shows and hate the OW, and do pretty much what you are doing now ‘how can they do this’, ‘I’d never do that’ etc

Do you think I seriously wanted 3 yrs of hurt and pain and feeling like all I was worth was what he had left, of trying to walk away and falling every time.

Do you think I liked discovering that the big strong can handle anything moral person I thought I was, was really a weak person who is crying while writing this and facing up to the real facts of the past 3 yrs.

Do you think that I don’t feel I deserve feeling like this because of the pain I caused the W.

I can’t justify it, but you’ll find most people on this forum are trying to get out of the situations they are in, and having to walk away knowing they will never get any answers or closure. You don’t need to judge me or anyone. After the complete whirlwind, despair, lose of control Ive been in now for too long now, I’m having a hard enough time judging myself.

[newbby]

very good post sooohurt,

it is completely true of course. nobody ever said it was ok, if they thought it was ok they would not be seeking help in this forum!

[Sami_D]

So why is it ok for your MM's to stay in their marriage and you've pretty much convinced yourself that it is ok, but in all reality he is cheating on you too with his wife. So why is that ok and how do you

reason with yourself to be ok with it?

 

Why does he get to sleep with you, leave your bed, then go back home and sleep and do his daily things with his wife. I know in the OW's head that you might justify this with "Well he is obligated to do the daily things with his wife since they are married, but he loves me more". How do you think he loves you more if he continues to keep you as his secret?

 

Again I'm trying to understand how you get around it and justify it. That is all.

 

Well I'm just going to answer for myself and my own situation. First thing I would say though is that 'OK' isn't how I view it at all. I wish our relationship was different. I'd rather say that "I accept it for the time being". Nothing about it is really OK. Now on to the specific things you asked about:

 

"So why is it ok for your MM's to stay in their marriage"

 

I accept that this is the best thing for the time being. The reason he isn't leaving is because of his children, especially his daughter who is nine next month. We've had all the debates about whether it's best for the children to see parents in a happy marriage, etc. etc. and I've always pushed for him to get himself out of that situation and be honest with everyone. BUT at the

end of the day, they're his children, it's him who has to live with the consequences of damaging their lives, and so it's his decision. And if I can't respect that decision then I have no business being in a relationship with him. That's how I reason that one.

 

"Why does he get to sleep with you, leave your bed, then go back home and sleep and do his daily things with his wife"

 

They don't sleep together. He doesn't go home to her at the end of the day. He works away from home and only goes back there at weekends. He spends all week in hotels because when he's at home more often they argue and get frustrated with each other. I stay with him in hotels at the moment because of the contract he's working on, but that will be over soon and we have the

option to get somewhere more permanent. I feel jealous of the time she gets with him at weekends, but I know it's me he looks forward to being with. If I had a choice of whose shoes to be in this situation - his W or his OW -

then I wouldn't want to swap with her for a minute.

 

"I'm trying to understand how you get around it and justify it."

 

Hopefully some of what I've said has thrown a little light on the 'getting around it'. But I have to say that it's very, very difficult. I DO want him to leave eventually. The fact that we're in this situation is only just bearable. And that goes for both of us. We spend far too much time

upset and trying to work our way through the pressures, guilty feelings, worries and pain of the whole thing. Neither of us is wearing a huge smile about this relationship for longer than brief moments. And that's really sad, because it seems wrong that finding love and fulfilment with someone should be a miserable experience.

 

Regarding 'justification'... of what? His behaviour? Mine? I don't think either of us needs to justify to anyone or ourselves at this moment. I think we're doing the best we can, and I leave the moralising to other people.

[too]

This goes out mainly to the OW's on this forum. Don't take this post as me judging you. I'd like to understand. So why is it ok for your MM's to stay in their marriage and you've pretty much convinced yourself that it is ok, but in all reality he is cheating on you too with his wife. So why is that ok and how do you reason with yourself to be ok with it?

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It is not okay. You basically go to hell and back and end up hating the guy, who gives you 5 billion reasons: 'My wife threatens suicide, I don't want to be responsible for her death', 'My kid won't get his college degree , if I leave now', 'If I don't sleep with her she goes beserk', 'she screamed at me the entire night, imagine the poor kids' etc....Pathetic, you will say. And pathetic it is. Even if all of the things you get told are true. Which is why a person with a brain will turn around one day and say 'BAd for you that you are in a miserable, unhappy marriage, leave me alone'. But if you think, that that was the end of the story and that they will turn to their wives then, you are wrong. Their love is so BIG, they keep running after you with tears like rain about having been misunderstood, with outbursts of 'rightful' anger, with heart wrenching pleas and vows: 'How could you leave me? You are the love of my life! I can't live without you! I swear x.... I swear y.... I swear z....Just give me another chance. I know I am a loser and I don't deserve it, but this time I will not fail you. I already found an apartment....I have applied for a job closer to you...etc.' And you are in love, you ache for him, your heart wants nothing more but to believe everything he says, 'Isn't that true love in his words, his eyes, his touch, aren't these real tear?, Isn't he just a scared little child after all, unable to handle the situation with this vicious manipulating, unloving, threatening wife?. Well, and afterwards you feel like you are a creature without a brain and without control over your most basic instincts and needs. Humiliated, betrayed, hurt, angry, losing your self-esteem - staring at a bottle of alcohol and sleeping pills. Is that an answer that satisfies you?

 

Sure, there are women with an infinite capacity of denial, too. But I would think that is a minority.

 

Do not underestimate, either, what some MM do to keep the OW, like kneeling down in public and crying and confessing their burning love. I think one has to see it to believe it.

[Wind]

When a MM says he is married that should be the red flag that slaps you in the face full force to keep away and keep it business related or don't keep it at all.

 

This may not sit well with everyone but ... I hate to say this but this outdated idea that a marriage is a commitment and until death do part is simply not true anymore- There is a 50-60% divorce rate. People are not property of a spouse and there is no red flag that can warn me off. I dont view a wife as having any special rights or is due any respect from me. I dont care about her. Also, if the H isnt happy with W then its HIS choice what he does within HIS marriage and he has to live with it. If/when I get tired of the situation, I can leave. It isnt any of my business what he does inside his marriage as I am not the one having to lie or cover up anything. I can sleep well at night! I dont have to reason with it being OK to be with someone elses husband because I dont care if they are married - after all its the not-married-today-separated-tomorrow-divorced-next-year attitude. In otherwords, if W cant keep her husband, then its her problem. I also think kids are better off with one stable parent than two unhappy ones and the whole crap about staying together to raise the kids is a bit pathetic.

 

I have been the OT and the 'W" so I kow both sides - I was in a long term relationship with someone I knew very very well- since we were in early teens. I knew of his liking for women and I knew that it was something I could either accept and have it openly discussed/arrange boundaries for his behaviour or he would lie to me and hide it. I chose the open road and it worked out well. He would never have left me and we split when I moved to a different country.

 

I think the bottom line is to be with someone who makes you happy, even if you have to share and even if its only for a short time. Life has no guarantees and you have to learn to accept the circumstances life throws at you. If someone's husband makes my stomach flip, my eyes crinkle with laughter and I can bounce out of bed and look forward to something later in the day, then there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that. The problem I think occurs when insecurities and other demands, wants or needs that arent being met start to take over a situation. THen its time to get out of the A or never to get into it in the first place if you have doubts or early problems.

 

What is MY issue is how I deal with being picked up and put down at the whim of the man. I have been the OW once before (separate from my current situation) and I learnt a few gems- I cannot be a security blanket beacuse he cant take care if himself and he thinks he needs it both ways. I worked with the guy the last A I was in, and it caused problems- not the co-worker kinds or gossip or anything that I normally read about on boards but little daily stuff where he feels comfortable to take his bad day temper tantrum out on me or I have to cover up for him or do extra things for him etc. I dont like being the OW because of the choices I choose for myself. (Which is why I dont want to be further involved with my MM at work- its about me and NOT her or the kids).

 

I also want to add, I have read many of OldEurope's posts and I aften agree with the perspective written. It may not always be popular but it is valid. I am guessing I may get a few flames for my post but it is what I think (seriously) and I am actually a well balanced, mature, highly educated professional person! Please accept my post as a perspective of someone who isnt apologetic over being the OW however unpopular or even unusual it is!

[Outcast]

I hate to say this but this outdated idea that a marriage is a commitment and until death do part is simply not true anymore- There is a 50-60% divorce rate. People are not property of a spouse and there is no red flag that can warn me off. I dont view a wife as having any special rights or is due any respect from me. I dont care about her

 

Lovely. Expect Karma to have its way with you. Don't be surprised if many people cheer. This 'me, myself, and I and screw all other people' philosophy is appallling.

 

MY issue is how I deal with being picked up and put down at the whim of the man

 

K - a - r - m - a. You reap what you sow. If you sow rot - that's what you get.

[Wind]

I dont believe in karma and I think its fairly obvious what comes around doesnt necessarily go around! (I dont think there is good or evil either...)

 

I do believe that we should all do what makes us happy. If we are happy then others around us might do the same, and so on.... We seem to be a culture built on self-sacrifice as an idealism and unrealistic goals are our mantra.