Overly friendly people and interest

May 18, 2023

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Or when I attempt OLD and sure there are lot of people I find attractive and interesting, just none find me attractive.

How did you meet your ex? Did you think she was “out of your league” when you met her?

You’ve fallen into your comfortable old thinking patterns again which have led to similar experiences and you find yourself back in the same place, namely lonely and struggling with self worth etc. You have to want to change these patterns for things to change. But you tend to defend them and find excuses to continue doing things the same way.

So when I ask about your ex, it’s an attempt for you to go “oh yeah, a woman I found attractive did want to date me!” And try to get to that place instead of twisting it into some failure. You know now that dating someone you find attractive is possible, and you also know there’s a lot more to being in a healthy relationship than that. That’s growth.

May 18, 2023

37 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

How did you meet your ex? Did you think she was “out of your league” when you met her?

You’ve fallen into your comfortable old thinking patterns again which have led to similar experiences and you find yourself back in the same place, namely lonely and struggling with self worth etc. You have to want to change these patterns for things to change. But you tend to defend them and find excuses to continue doing things the same way.

So when I ask about your ex, it’s an attempt for you to go “oh yeah, a woman I found attractive did want to date me!” And try to get to that place instead of twisting it into some failure. You know now that dating someone you find attractive is possible, and you also know there’s a lot more to being in a healthy relationship than that. That’s growth.

I did actually think she was out of my league especially considering my OLD experience. It ultimately was a complete loss in terms of me just messing it up, that cannot be overlooked nor can the frankly ridiculous level of compromise she had to make for my benefit, when I look back I am surprised it lasted 3 dates never mind 9 months. Maybe she had no other options at the time.

In short I failed at virtually every aspect of that relationship simply because I had no experience.

Frankly the only real value I get now is from the odd friendly chat with a client, its business but who does not enjoy the gaze of someone attractive. So yes I enjoy the overly friendly attractive person because at least it keeps the "that would be nice" part of my thinking going.

May 18, 2023

You don't understand friendship because you haven't learned to "get" interpersonal relationships.

Friendships can exist on very many levels. People getting good connections with others through business or other professional "networking" are definitely there to gain in some way other than personal enrichment. This does not mean that real connections and personal enrichment can't result. I have many people in my life at this stage (old) that I picked up along the way because of past professional connections that developed into real friendships.

It's not all cutthroat and uncaring, as you with your black & white thinking want to categorize it. Yes, people are networking and being their best most charming selves for professional gain. Those who engage in this and have ethics aren't going to "use" others. Everybody is on the same playing field in these situations unless there is a bad player, and in that case we hope that our instincts will steer us away from much involvement professionally and zero personally.

I don't agree with everybody that friendship with your ex is necessarily a bad idea. From what I gathered, the main reason your relationship failed was your lack of romantic, physical, boyfriend-like behavior which was necessary to escalate your relationship to where you wanted it to be.

Seems like you two were companionable and enjoyed your times together. You need that in your life and it doesn't have to be "wrong" just because you two did not succeed in developing a lasting romantic union.

May 18, 2023

I don't think the manosphere stuff creates the negative feelings to begin with. That comes from loneliness and not being able to establish a relationship, etc.

I DO think, however it may have started, these days "the manosphere" essentially exploits people in this situation for profit, e.g. via social media revenue. It also may intensify those negative feelings by providing "rationales" based on stereotypes about women. And IMO it very much tends to perpetuate the things it is purporting to solve for men.

Lonely and somewhat bitter men who feel even more bitter, and have also ingrained negative (and ultimately false or only sometimes true) stereotypes introduced via the internet are, after all, even less likely to actually hit it off with a typical woman than they would be if they were less bitter and didn't hold those stereotypes. This sort of thing tends to come out during dating, and women tend to be good at "reading folks". Naturally, the sooner they figure out they are dealing with someone who's bitter and harbors strong negative stereotypes about women, the sooner a typical woman heads for the door.

A recent poster who seemed to genuinely believe that women were, essentially, controlled by their hormones and so only able to be attracted to "bad boys" is a case in point. That notion (as a generalization about all women) is ridiculous, and of course would be very off-putting to the vast majority of women he might date.

So, for men who have trouble getting dates to begin with, manosphere stuff tends to help keep them "stuck" unfortunately.

Edited May 18, 2023 by mark clemson

May 18, 2023

In short I failed at virtually every aspect of that relationship simply because I had no experience.

Did this woman tell you the above? I doubt that she said you failed in virtually every aspect.

I know this is an out-there recommendation. But since you are quite critical of yourself (many of us are) I recommend something that some therapists use to help patients with anxiety. Don't worry, I'm not treating you. The step is to ask people about the fear we have about ourselves.

I wonder if you would be open to contacting your ex and telling her what you've said here and then asking her if she would agree that you "failed at virtually every aspect of that relationship." You can tell her you're not trying to start any disagreement but that you really want to learn more about yourself in hopes of developing better dating skills.

There's a very high chance you would get some helpful feedback from her. And I'd guarantee that she would mention some things she really liked about you. And I would bet as well that she doesn't think you need to change everything about you and the way you date,. Most likely she'd identify a few areas (and she'll name them) that would push you to another level of dating.

Just a thought.

Keep in mind that partners typically don't judge weak social skills (we all have some weak areas) as harshly as they judge outright meanness and selfishness and nastiness and a habit of lashing out.

May 19, 2023

14 hours ago, Lotsgoingon said:

In short I failed at virtually every aspect of that relationship simply because I had no experience.

Did this woman tell you the above? I doubt that she said you failed in virtually every aspect.

I know this is an out-there recommendation. But since you are quite critical of yourself (many of us are) I recommend something that some therapists use to help patients with anxiety. Don't worry, I'm not treating you. The step is to ask people about the fear we have about ourselves.

I wonder if you would be open to contacting your ex and telling her what you've said here and then asking her if she would agree that you "failed at virtually every aspect of that relationship." You can tell her you're not trying to start any disagreement but that you really want to learn more about yourself in hopes of developing better dating skills.

There's a very high chance you would get some helpful feedback from her. And I'd guarantee that she would mention some things she really liked about you. And I would bet as well that she doesn't think you need to change everything about you and the way you date,. Most likely she'd identify a few areas (and she'll name them) that would push you to another level of dating.

Just a thought.

Keep in mind that partners typically don't judge weak social skills (we all have some weak areas) as harshly as they judge outright meanness and selfishness and nastiness and a habit of lashing out.

I fail at anything resembling romance and intimacy. Its why I actually enjoy interacting with overly friendly people because I get a lot of what I really like without having to offer up what I am very bad at. A really good example of this was someone I spent a lot of time with as a friend, sure I wanted to date her but she just made me feel good, her whole personality is warm and friendly and she actually took an interest in me rather than using me.

Yes, she was exceptionally pretty but it was her personality which defined her and this friendly warmth that I found so attractive. it was one of those rare times where I could completely open up.

Sure I do not think my ex would say I was totally useless but she did say I lack experience and I think over time that became a deal breaker.

May 19, 2023

22 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

In short I failed at virtually every aspect of that relationship simply because I had no experience.

Do you think it would help if you cultivated a little self-compassion? Where you can now look back and acknowledge that it was a difficult situation, and that you did the best you could with the knowledge that you had.

May 19, 2023

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

she did say I lack experience and I think over time that became a deal breaker.

I don’t think it was the lack of experience as much as it was your unwillingness to go outside your comfort zone. Lack of experience gets conquered by a willingness to learn and grow and push ourselves. You refuse to do that and actually actively fight to stay stuck exactly where you are, just like this thread.

May 19, 2023

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Sure I do not think my ex would say I was totally useless but she did say I lack experience and I think over time that became a deal breaker.

You dated the woman for almost a year. Now you have experience, which should theoretically help your next relationship. Unless you persist in this self-limiting thought that you have no experience leads to the demise of your relationship. The truth is, people without experience get into relationships every day - some last while others don’t - either way, it’s ok because what we learn about yourselves and being in a relationship is helpful for future relationships.

May 21, 2023

You sit in these bad patterns because they're comfortable for you. Which really ties into having no self-confidence. Self-confidence involves taking ACTION. The patterns of behavior you find comfortable are usually the same ones you've been in for a long time, and they often don't challenge you to move forward.

How to stop feeling lonely? Join a club or hobby group, consider joining a local running group or taking a cooking class. I've been surrounded by good friends for the majority of my life but sometimes we don't always see each other. I have taken so many different classes, even when surrounded with friends. Sometimes even with friends! I did this because it allowed me to try something new and explore different interests. Other times, I'll do things just for myself and by myself! Like, I love working out alone. I struggle with confidence in some areas (which I am working on every day) and other areas I have no problem with confidence.

My advice to others is to take action to do things that will build your self-confidence. Start by taking small steps and challenging yourself to try new things. Don't be afraid to do things alone or with friends, whatever helps you to come out of your comfort zone. Also, find a supportive community such as a hobby group or a local running group to connect with others and learn from each other.

May 22, 2023

Ok one thing I can say with absolute certainty was the banter was simply to try and get into my network of contacts, I was at a group lunch yesterday and this lady was present so it was very obvious to me. No problem with that at all.

These lunches are usually one of the places I feel best, everyone has a common interest, everyone is interesting to chat to but as a dating place this is not it really but I take it for what it is, some nice company for a few hours.

May 22, 2023

23 hours ago, Alpacalia said:

You sit in these bad patterns because they're comfortable for you. Which really ties into having no self-confidence. Self-confidence involves taking ACTION. The patterns of behavior you find comfortable are usually the same ones you've been in for a long time, and they often don't challenge you to move forward.

How to stop feeling lonely? Join a club or hobby group, consider joining a local running group or taking a cooking class. I've been surrounded by good friends for the majority of my life but sometimes we don't always see each other. I have taken so many different classes, even when surrounded with friends. Sometimes even with friends! I did this because it allowed me to try something new and explore different interests. Other times, I'll do things just for myself and by myself! Like, I love working out alone. I struggle with confidence in some areas (which I am working on every day) and other areas I have no problem with confidence.

My advice to others is to take action to do things that will build your self-confidence. Start by taking small steps and challenging yourself to try new things. Don't be afraid to do things alone or with friends, whatever helps you to come out of your comfort zone. Also, find a supportive community such as a hobby group or a local running group to connect with others and learn from each other.

I think this is very easy to to actually say, there is a fundamental issue I have found, I have tried to step out of the way I engage with people, I have tried to get out of my shell more but I can tell you categorically there is never much advantage for me to doing either of those things. Again last week I get a nice conversation going with someone attractive and again Mr. humor and charm arrives and instantly the attention is on him and not me.

I will apologies unreservedly for this but maybe I should not bother with that type of person who has endless options? Clearly it does not work for me and very clearly all I am good for is either my contact list, used for my help or good for a stop gap conversation.

Almost everything I do on my own, its a pattern that goes back to school days, I had no real friends there either barring another 3 or 4 miss fits like me. With some shame I admit when someone I find attractive pays me attention in any way I really enjoy that, I probably should not but I do and as such I like to try and hold that attention.

The best confidence builders I ever had were two people who were simply really nice to me, both could see I had no confidence and both have supreme levels of confidence and just a warmth that I really liked. There I could project my most confident self and the level of feel good was really good but I sometimes ask myself how much of that was because I was simply way out of my league.

May 22, 2023

15 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

The best confidence builders I ever had were two people who were simply really nice to me…

But these interactions didn’t build your confidence at all. Your self worth is as low as ever. You negative self talk is as ample as it’s ever been. You admit you don’t have confidence. So the strategy of befriending attractive women actually doesn’t build your confidence at all. It likely is a temporary distraction from you loneliness and gives you a chance to fantasize about “what if”, but none of that actually increases your confidence.

You were also convinced that I’d you just got one person to date you where there was mutual attraction your confidence would increase. You got that, yet no increase in your confidence. As has been stated many time before, confidence and self-worth does not come from other people. It comes from within.

May 22, 2023

On 5/19/2023 at 2:06 PM, BaileyB said:

You dated the woman for almost a year. Now you have experience, which should theoretically help your next relationship. Unless you persist in this self-limiting thought that you have no experience leads to the demise of your relationship. The truth is, people without experience get into relationships every day - some last while others don’t - either way, it’s ok because what we learn about yourselves and being in a relationship is helpful for future relationships.

Yip even I cannot spin this truth into any other truth!

I think in theory it does help but seeing as I never really meet anyone who ticks any of the boxes its just theoretical. Perhaps in some ways its easier to fall in love with the idea than it is to fall in love with an imperfect reality. I think it all depends on what one is hoping to accomplish, ultimately I was stupid and I now pay the price for that.

Though oddly enough there is some sense that me being able to date was more about me be incredibly lucky rather than any great quality I may have.

May 22, 2023

5 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

But these interactions didn’t build your confidence at all. Your self worth is as low as ever. You negative self talk is as ample as it’s ever been. You admit you don’t have confidence. So the strategy of befriending attractive women actually doesn’t build your confidence at all. It likely is a temporary distraction from you loneliness and gives you a chance to fantasize about “what if”, but none of that actually increases your confidence.

You were also convinced that I’d you just got one person to date you where there was mutual attraction your confidence would increase. You got that, yet no increase in your confidence. As has been stated many time before, confidence and self-worth does not come from other people. It comes from within.

Sure point taken but for a large portion of time I did feel immensely good and could find a lot more confidence, when I was dating I lacked confidence too because I was all too aware I could not do the romance part of dating at all so the level of pressure I put myself under was immense. If anything what I just realized was even if I had by some miracle managed to get one of these models to date me, it absolutely would not have worked for the same reason it will not work with anyone.

Have to tell you "what if" is actually really nice more so for me because there was a sense of "yeah this should not be possible for me, this person really should not be spending any time with me".

In reality there are few things that feel better to me and make me feel better than knowing I have somehow beaten the odds at something.

May 22, 2023

54 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Almost everything I do on my own, its a pattern that goes back to school days, I had no real friends there either barring another 3 or 4 miss fits like me. With some shame I admit when someone I find attractive pays me attention in any way I really enjoy that, I probably should not but I do and as such I like to try and hold that attention.

It is likely because of a lack of socialization and positive reinforcement from peers during school days that made it difficult for you to form and maintain meaningful relationships.

Sure, life hasn't been kind to you.

There will come a point in life when you grasp that your perception of yourself is not the same as that of everyone else, when you will be able to stop grounding yourself and finally learn to disregard your inhibitions.

Don't give a hoot. Just try. A little...

Seriously.

Until you can truly no longer give a single hoot, it will be hard to be confident.

May 23, 2023

16 hours ago, Alpacalia said:

It is likely because of a lack of socialization and positive reinforcement from peers during school days that made it difficult for you to form and maintain meaningful relationships.

Sure, life hasn't been kind to you.

There will come a point in life when you grasp that your perception of yourself is not the same as that of everyone else, when you will be able to stop grounding yourself and finally learn to disregard your inhibitions.

Don't give a hoot. Just try. A little...

Seriously.

Until you can truly no longer give a single hoot, it will be hard to be confident.

I do not really care to be honest but what I am trying to do is step back to see things differently. I just find it rather difficult at times to tell interest from friendly so the easiest way to do this is to just accept everything is simply friendly with no real interest.

What also does not help is there is frankly mountains of subjective evidence around me that supports all my viewpoints, would be nice if there were examples to disprove my viewpoints. What the work world has taught me is it is possible to boost the confidence of others by encouraging and making them believe they can actually do something. Now compare this to my experiences, yes @Weezy1973is not wrong, I do not get a lot out of the interactions I have had with people I find attractive but for a moment I can believe I might get it right.

Again overly friendly people tend to offer the same sense of belief but then I actually go and do the chore like things to try and accomplish and well its a thud down to earth because well that lady who might be having a nice conversation with me, will very quickly have a much more friendly conversation with someone better looking, more charming and able to flirt. Which of course leaves me nowhere.

Having said all of that if the best I can do is a friendly interaction with the sort of people I would date then I guess I need to be happy with just that.

May 23, 2023

12 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I do not really care to be honest but what I am trying to do is step back to see things differently. I just find it rather difficult at times to tell interest from friendly so the easiest way to do this is to just accept everything is simply friendly with no real interest.

I'd imagine that 9/10 people we talk to are just being friendly. I'd never assume romantic interest unless they are being flirty or suggesting doing something together.

12 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

well its a thud down to earth because well that lady who might be having a nice conversation with me, will very quickly have a much more friendly conversation with someone better looking, more charming and able to flirt.

I think you're an outlier in valuing good conversation with attractive people.

Anyway, this whole paragraph is you confusing friendliness with interest. It's most likely that friendly lady will simply go off and have nice conversations with anyone who comes her way because she doesn't dismiss potential friends on the basis of appearance, gender or age. And if she's just being friendly, there's absolutely no reason to believe that the handsome guy she talks to will mistake her friendliness for romantic interest...or that he would be available or interested in return.

May 23, 2023

15 minutes ago, basil67 said:

I'd imagine that 9/10 people we talk to are just being friendly. I'd never assume romantic interest unless they are being flirty or suggesting doing something together.

I think you're an outlier in valuing good conversation with attractive people.

Anyway, this whole paragraph is you confusing friendliness with interest. It's most likely that friendly lady will simply go off and have nice conversations with anyone who comes her way because she doesn't dismiss potential friends on the basis of appearance, gender or age. And if she's just being friendly, there's absolutely no reason to believe that the handsome guy she talks to will mistake her friendliness for romantic interest...or that he would be available or interested in return.

Well yes going forward I will just assume nobody is interested and adopt that approach, I did this for a while but then questioned whether it was the right approach. Why I value specific conversation may surprise you, an attractive person usually has many options and to be frank I am never one of those high value options. For me some the worst experiences I have had were with people I did not find attractive who tried SO hard to make themselves attractive to me, whereas I sit in front of someone who has their pick of people, I generally do not need to worry about that at all because there is always some boyfriend or many a good suiter around.

Its me recognizing I get more out of that interaction than one with someone who is desperately trying to make themselves attractive to me so yes overall from a realistic point of view I am more likely to attract a conversation than I am to attract interest. I just need to remember this more!

As long as I realize I will never have a chance with the people I am attracted to everything is sort of OK, its when I mistakenly think I can compete with the charming, wealthy, attractive guys that I get clobbered. I just need to work on this.

May 23, 2023

Why would a person who's simply being friendly twist themselves in knots trying to be attractive to you? It makes no sense whatsoever. Like I said earlier, most of us don't care what our friends look like.

And the part about you not having a [romantic] chance with the people you're attracted to is irrelevant when we're talking about friendly people.

May 23, 2023

I’d enjoy the friendly banter and keep the personal out of it if it’s confusing to you or it seems she has ulterior motives or wants to “use” your contacts. It seems you’re flattered and lonely but I don’t get the sense that you’re attracted at all to this woman, given her sales background and attempts at getting to other people you know.

I didn’t see her comments as inappropriate either or indicating any interest in a romantic sense. Friendships do develop at work or from work settings but it doesn’t have to be right now either. Leave the door open on that and reply whenever you feel like it or are free. If she’s genuine in her friendship or getting to know you, you’ll see that over time.

May 23, 2023

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I do not really care to be honest…

If you didn’t care you wouldn’t be posting nor would you be complaining about loneliness.

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

What also does not help is there is frankly mountains of subjective evidence around me that supports all my viewpoints, would be nice if there were examples to disprove my viewpoints.

Ever heard of the term confirmation bias? Look it up. There is ample evidence that counters your viewpoint, including the actual lives of most of the folks posting on this thread. Like me! And with your ex, didn’t you meet her friends that were in relationships and you mentioned it changing your view at the time.

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

As long as I realize I will never have a chance with the people I am attracted to…

You were attracted to your ex. So you can put the “never have a chance” belief to rest.

May 23, 2023

7 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

What also does not help is there is frankly mountains of subjective evidence around me that supports all my viewpoints, would be nice if there were examples to disprove my viewpoints.

That's because the evidence supports a negative viewpoint. The world around you is negative. Of course it's easier to find evidence to support your views. It is a natural human tendency to seek out evidence that confirms our existing beliefs, even if this evidence is only anecdotal.

On here there are threads about long distance relationships going sour and to avoid them at all costs, but in real life I've met enough people who are in successful long-term relationships to make my head spin. They either bridged the gap or are still in it.

If you want to start seeing changes, consider all evidence, not just that which confirms your existing beliefs. It is possible to find evidence to support positive viewpoints as well, IF you are open to it. Research has shown that people who have a more positive outlook tend to be more successful in life. So the people you refer to as being naturally friendly most likely are just, well, positive.

Edited May 23, 2023 by Alpacalia

May 24, 2023

@ZA Dater is this thread about romance or friendship? I understood it as being about friendship and chatting to those around us because the woman you were talking about is a very friendly person. But perhaps I'm wrong??

May 26, 2023

On 5/23/2023 at 1:54 AM, ZA Dater said:

What also does not help is there is frankly mountains of subjective evidence around me that supports all my viewpoints, would be nice if there were examples to disprove my viewpoints.

We’ve given you examples that disprove your viewpoints in the past - you dismiss them.

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