Dating with caution and unsure how to proceed

[rosean]

I was approached by a man 5 months ago on a night out, and we have been dating for about 3.5 months, coming up to 4.

He has been consistent for the most part since we met and has pursued me, made plans, let me into his life and shared his feelings for me with me. He told me he loved me pretty early on and then took it back immediately because he felt it was too soon to say those words. Last month I met his cousin and his close friends, who I've been seeing regularly now. 

He is 41 and has not been in a serious, committed relationship since his early 20s. He is a doctor by profession and although he works long hours, he hasn't used this as a reason for why he is single - it's his vulnerability and fear of losing control that his kept him single. There were moments early on where he didn't reply for a few days, but still made plans and sent regular messages / made calls. Over the past few weeks there have been more days where he hasn't responded and it's made me feel like something has changed. When I asked him about the communication he said it he didn't want me thinking him not replying was a sign he wasn't thinking of me, but he had days where he got caught up with other things and didn't see the urgency in replying. I told him hearing from him even just once a day would make me happy and feel connected but unfortunately over the last 24 hours it seems like he hasn't taken that on board and hasn't replied to my last voice note.

I see him about 2/3 times every 10 days because he works in another city so he travels a lot. We have had a few sleepovers however we are NOT having sex with each-other because I am just not ready for that step and want to build more trust. He has fully respected my decision.

Because of the change in texting along with the context of his age/history/travel for work, I am wondering if I am dating an avoidant man who is so used to being selfish and just cannot relinquish control to be in a relationship. I've been burned in the past so my senses are heightened! I'm 32 and not in a rush to settle down... but I also don't want to be taken for a ride.

[ExpatInItaly]

29 minutes ago, rosean said:

I am wondering if I am dating an avoidant man who is so used to being selfish and just cannot relinquish control to be in a relationship

I think you are noticing who he really is, whether he's avoidant or just not that into relationships in general.  

31 minutes ago, rosean said:

I'm 32 and not in a rush to settle down... but I also don't want to be taken for a ride.

I don't think you are being taken for a ride, so to speak. He seems to have been honest about how he operates, and I don't see that he is trying to sell you a version of himself that isn't accruate.  However, it appears you two might not be compatible. He has a very different approach to relationships than you do, and doesn't seem interested in making changes. This is who he is, just as this is who you are. 

Neither of you is wrong, necessarily, but you may be wrong for each other. 

[Wiseman2]

46 minutes ago, rosean said:

 we have been dating for about 3.5 months. he had days where he got caught up with other things and didn't see the urgency in replying. 

 we are NOT having sex with each-other because I am just not ready for that step and want to build more trust. 

Unfortunately he doesn't seem like a big texter and it's difficult to "build trust" or develop a relationship through texting. Try to see each other in person and talk about things then.

It's fine if you're not ready for sex, but perhaps it's time to define what you're looking for in terms of the relationship.

For example since you're not intimate, are you both still talking to and meeting others?  Have you discussed being exclusive?

[rosean]

23 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

I think you are noticing who he really is, whether he's avoidant or just not that into relationships in general.  

I don't think you are being taken for a ride, so to speak. He seems to have been honest about how he operates, and I don't see that he is trying to sell you a version of himself that isn't accruate.  However, it appears you two might not be compatible. He has a very different approach to relationships than you do, and doesn't seem interested in making changes. This is who he is, just as this is who you are. 

Neither of you is wrong, necessarily, but you may be wrong for each other. 

You're right - this is who he is. When he started to get more comfortable with me he told me he hadn't felt this way about a woman in almost 20 years.  Just after our third or fourth date I suggested we just stay friends because of his travel and lack of availability, but he made some quick changes and some weeks later said it was because he didn't want to lose me.

I can't tell if some fears have kicked in, or if he is getting more comfortable. He ran into a friend of mine not too long ago and was raving about me and his feelings for me.

For someone who has a questionable dating history, he has shown me he serious. I don't believe he would introduce me to important people in his life, especially if he fears being vulnerable, if he wasn't serious. My fear is that even if he is serious can he overcome his fears and adjust to be selfless in a relationship? At 41?

6 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Unfortunately he doesn't seem like a big texter and it's difficult to "build trust" or develop a relationship through texting. Try to see each other in person and talk about things then.

It's fine if you're not ready for sex, but perhaps it's time to define what you're looking for in terms of the relationship.

For example since you're not intimate, are you both still talking to and meeting others?  Have you discussed being exclusive?

He's been very consistent with texting/voice notes. There have been some occasions where I haven't heard from him for a few days but it's increased over the past month.

He's been open about what he wants, talks about his values and my values - we see eye to eye on important matters. We have been intimate, but haven't had sex. I feel I want to build the trust more and he respects that.

We're exclusive and not seeing others. I've expressed to him words are important for me but I understand they probably don't come to him as naturally. I guess I want some verbal affirmation from him on top of what he is showing me? And more consistent communication.

[Gaeta]

Is he an ER doctor? My sister-in-law is an ER doctor and she can stay at the hospital 48 hours with no sleep, no time to eat, holding her blader till it burst so forget about her replying to her text. 

Do you have access to his schedule? Do you know when he's working or not? 

2/3 dates per 2 weeks isn't much to build trust and connection. At some point you both will have to find a solution to escalate this relationship to the next level.  At 6 months mark it's a good time to talk about how to spend more time together.

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, rosean said:

. My fear is that even if he is serious can he overcome his fears and adjust to be selfless in a relationship? At 41?

 

What makes you believe he's "afraid of" of things? Are you categorizing him with a "commitmentphobia"? Is this based on the fact that he's not been married before or something he told you? 

He seems into you and things seem to be going well. Keep in mind it's just a few months so it's important to observe if you are a good fit. It's also important to observe each other's lifestyle. For example he's not as into texting as you are.

 

[stillafool]

 

2 hours ago, rosean said:

. I guess I want some verbal affirmation from him on top of what he is showing me?  And more consistent communication.

 

3 hours ago, rosean said:

made plans, let me into his life and shared his feelings for me with me.

Wasn''t this verbal affirmation^?

2 hours ago, rosean said:

He's been very consistent with texting/voice notes

Here you're saying the communication is consistent.  

[ShyViolet]

There's no way I would continue a relationship with a man who goes entire days without replying to me.... especially not 4 months into dating which is supposed to be the peak of the honeymoon period where you are excited about each other.  Maybe he has issues where he has a fear of intimacy or a fear of getting into a serious relationship.  Well he needs to work on those issues but they are not your problem.  He is showing you that he's not emotionally available for a relationship.

[Alpacalia]

Even if he understands your need for communication, he may have difficulty prioritizing it. As a doctor, he is probably working long shifts, of course he's busy -- and on his breaks he probably needs some heavy detox time so he can make it through. He may not have the mental or emotional energy to focus on your needs, as he is likely already overwhelmed with the demands of his job.

The bigger question to me is one you have to answer. Is this a deal breaker? He is essentially saying that this is his communication style. This is something you will have to decide whether or not you are okay with. It may not work for someone who needs daily communication. Different people have different communication styles.

There's no point in us telling you how to feel, because you're the one feeling it.

[smackie9]

No he's not avoidant, it's his profession. If his absence and lack of texting bothers you, then you 2 are not compatible. This is how it will always be until he retires. Don't expect things to get any better than this. 

[NuevoYorko]

7 hours ago you wrote:

 Over the past few weeks there have been more days where he hasn't responded and it's made me feel like something has changed. When I asked him about the communication he said it he didn't want me thinking him not replying was a sign he wasn't thinking of me, but he had days where he got caught up with other things and didn't see the urgency in replying. I told him hearing from him even just once a day would make me happy and feel connected but unfortunately over the last 24 hours it seems like he hasn't taken that on board and hasn't replied to my last voice note.

But one hour later, you wrote:

There have been some occasions where I haven't heard from him for a few days but it's increased over the past month.

So those two statements are directly contradictory.  He's either getting worse, getting better, or remaining consistent.  Which is it?

Honestly,  the only real alarming thing about your situation, besides the fact that you have been very unclear about the tempo of communication, was that he said "I LOVE YOU" early on ... and immediately took it back ???  That is weird.  Was he drunk?  I mean, I can't really imagine any scenario where that chain of events would make sense.  

Aside from that (which is a big deal, it says a lot about him), I think this is really about whether you are okay with his communication style.   My father was a doctor, my mother a nurse, I know lots of stories about how much they did NOT date and during his internship & residency he was a non-present zombie, mostly, when he wasn't working.  When we were little kids and he was "on call," he could do nothing on weekends.  It was a rough life in a lot of ways, though of course he earned a good living.

[Lotsgoingon]

I wouldn't date someone who couldn't reply to a text on the day I sent it--absent a catastrophic emergency, which would happen once.

Just wouldn't do it.

Don't care what the reason for the absence of reply is. Could be he's a criminal. Could be his phone is broken. Could be he's avoidant. I wouldn't care. I simply would not date a person who does this.

In dating, we want someone who likes us, who has good qualities and who has the capability to be in an intimate relationship. This guy doesn't have the capability of being in an intimate relationship. And no, his "history" does not explain that. Plenty of inexperienced people, plenty of awkward people, would be available and communicative and consistent. 

It's not your job to assist his development. I would cut down my investing in him. Be sure to bluntly tell him what's going on and your unhappiness. Be more direct than you are. More I cannot continue to date under these circumstances. Maybe give him a short period to change and then dump him. 

[introverted1]

11 hours ago, rosean said:

We have had a few sleepovers however we are NOT having sex with each-other because I am just not ready for that step

Do you think your reticence about taking the next step is preventing him from also taking the next step? It seems you are both holding back, albeit in different ways.

[Alpacalia]

How did you respond when he said he loved you?

It can be just as nerve-wracking for someone to say those words as it is for the person hearing them.

He may have pulled back on the "I love you" until he felt the timing was right. It also shows that he was being honest with his feelings, even though he backed off from saying them because he felt it was too soon.

He's introduced you to friends and family and has respected your wishes to go slow physically.

Did you feel that he was progressing the relationship too fast initially?

Edited May 5, 2023 by Alpacalia

[Lotsgoingon]

Let's go back to basics here.

You haven't had sex yet--3.5 months into the relationship.  So that catches my eye. If you don't feel safe having sex after three months, then there may be something wrong with the relationship or this guy isn't for you.

OP, are you part of a religious group that deliberately puts off premarital sex?

Do you guys make out and passionately kiss and touch? 

 

[rosean]

Thanks everyone for your replies. Looking over my initial post I can see I wasn't detailed enough and can see why some of you might see what I've said about his texting contradictory! 
 

so to start, he was very consistent with his texting and voice notes. I'd hear from him daily. This went on for a few weeks until around Christmas where texts took a little longer to reply to but I still received them from him daily. before our third date he didn't reply for three days and this was when I told him to consider his schedule and priorities cos it was not acceptable to not confirm a date. I refused to meet him and he ended up rescheduling and booking a venue. That was also when he made some swift changes to his punctuality (he was habitually late early on and is apparently late to everything including work). I told him multiple times he wasn't respecting my time and he actually has improved and is no longer an issue because he will tell me if he needs more time getting ready. Every other day following up until recently he has been consistent with his voice notes/texts. I know his schedule and he absolutely does have time to respond because that is what he has been doing for over 4 months - in fact he has even responded on short breaks at work from time to time! And on some days where he has been tired he will send me a short note to say he is acknowledging my messages and he'll respond later. 

This change in communication is recent - he wasn't always like this. It's been 48 hours now since my last message + no reply from him. 
 

It's lowering my attraction to him because he is doing the opposite of what I asked. I feel this is me giving him a chance and I don't feel inclined to fix things because this is his issue, not mine and we are not serious or committed. I told him it was unacceptable and at this stage, a deal breaker to not communicate regularly. 

to those who have brought up the sex thing - you are right, I do not feel safe enough or have a sense of security with him BUT it's not just because of him, I have been burnt badly before and I want to assess a man and his actions without complicating the courtship with sex and feelings. I also want it to get to a place where I feel he is serious enough - and we are both relaxed - before we have sex. It has worked so far and I can happily say I am not afraid to lose him. We have fooled around and had a few sleep overs and right before the communication change we talked about it and decided we'd see how we felt on my birthday weekend (next weekend) - he said he was making plans for me but I don't know any details. 
 

Another reason why I've held back sexually is because of his relationship history which has not consisted of a serious commitment since his early 20s. He opened up saying he hadn't felt this way about a woman in almost 20 years and that there were two other women he had love for but he had trouble being vulnerable and so they never eventuated into something serious. 
 

I'm cautious because I don't want to think I'm the special snowflake who is going to magically make him be more vulnerable and selfless enough to take on the responsibility of a relationship. I'm sure his work has played a role in his inability to hold a relationship but he has specifically said he has a fear of losing control and even suggested I would 'destroy' him! I have no doubt he has been content being a bachelor and doing whatever he pleases when he pleases. He has been sincere and consistent up until this point and I can see from his actions he is serious. it's just now, SOMETHING has changed. 

One other thing I have picked up on is some delusion and a need for perfection in a relationship - something he cannot even deliver? I feel he has been treated a certain way by society because of what he is and it's made him entitled and selfish. I don't know this for sure but it has crossed my mind with some comments he has made.

[rosean]

 

4 hours ago, Alpacalia said:

How did you respond when he said he loved you?

It can be just as nerve-wracking for someone to say those words as it is for the person hearing them.

He may have pulled back on the "I love you" until he felt the timing was right. It also shows that he was being honest with his feelings, even though he backed off from saying them because he felt it was too soon.

He's introduced you to friends and family and has respected your wishes to go slow physically.

Did you feel that he was progressing the relationship too fast initially?

I didn't get a chance to respond because he took it back quickly. He was drunk when he said it. It has come up in some jokes since, but he hasn't said it again. He has however alluded to it.

I definitely didn't feel he was progressing the relationship slowly - I would think it was a slower pace if anything because there were long gaps between when we'd see eachother. I had already met some of his friends and formally met his closest group a few weeks ago. He told me he was very nervous and couldn't recall the last time he had done something like that... He has brought up thoughts he has on whether he can give me what I want and meet my expectations however his effort level has increased so it has been a reason for concern up until now with the communication.

It's not the distance that bothers me, it's that I only see a relationship worth investing in if he communicates daily and is committed.

He was communicating regularly and daily until recently. 

The change in frequency is the reason for my concern.

He has shown me he is very capable of daily communication. 

Something has changed and I am no longer hearing from him daily. 

Edited May 5, 2023 by rosean

[NuevoYorko]

It seems like you might be "testing" him by sending him a lot of messages via text and voice notes to sort of put him through his paces.

If you are going to be in a relationship with a person who has trouble keeping up with these kinds of communications, I think you will need to minimize your requirements for texting and voice messages.

It's certainly reasonable that he should respond on the same day.  I do not think it's reasonable that there should be a bunch of messages that need to be responded to within a day.   

I'm old and I know that times have changed, but "back in the day" people in a relationship would call each other every day if they wouldn't be meeting.  ONCE a day.  

I do text plenty these days, but when my partner and I are apart we don't keep up this stream of texting / messages. Still once a day.  

Can you dial it back?

[Wiseman2]

2 hours ago, rosean said:

 I only see a relationship worth investing in if he communicates daily and is committed.

Something has changed and I am no longer hearing from him daily. 

Since there is no intimacy and there has been no exclusive conversation, it's unrealistic to think that he's not talking to and meeting others. 

So far you don't really seem that compatible as far as communication and the amount of time and attention you require.

It's up to you to decide how much you want to invest rather than explain to him that he has to text daily and regularly and tell you what you need to hear.  If he's not meeting your requirements, all you can do is step back.

[rosean]

2 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

It seems like you might be "testing" him by sending him a lot of messages via text and voice notes to sort of put him through his paces.

If you are going to be in a relationship with a person who has trouble keeping up with these kinds of communications, I think you will need to minimize your requirements for texting and voice messages.

It's certainly reasonable that he should respond on the same day.  I do not think it's reasonable that there should be a bunch of messages that need to be responded to within a day.   

I'm old and I know that times have changed, but "back in the day" people in a relationship would call each other every day if they wouldn't be meeting.  ONCE a day.  

I do text plenty these days, but when my partner and I are apart we don't keep up this stream of texting / messages. Still once a day.  

Can you dial it back?

It's already been dialled back though. He initiated the messaging and pace from the start, I just reciprocated but slowly because texting a lot with someone I don't know well isn't natural to me. 

it's the pattern that has changed dramatically. I'd hear from him at least once a day and now I haven't heard from him in over two days. 

something has changed. Every time he has been vulnerable he has withdrawn but not like this.

1 hour ago, Wiseman2 said:

Since there is no intimacy and there has been no exclusive conversation, it's unrealistic to think that he's not talking to and meeting others. 

So far you don't really seem that compatible as far as communication and the amount of time and attention you require.

It's up to you to decide how much you want to invest rather than explain to him that he has to text daily and regularly and tell you what you need to hear.  If he's not meeting your requirements, all you can do is step back.

 He is 41 and has intimacy issues and fears vulnerability. I simply don't believe there is anyone else. He works from 10pm to 8am, six days a week and then I see him most days when he is here. I know his schedule and I also just met family and his closest friends. Someone like him who struggles with vulnerability and intimacy would never introduce me to his inner circle. Someone who hasn't felt this way about a woman in 20 years, as he said to me, just wouldn't do that. 

Don't think no sex has anything to do with it. It's a boundary I have set and he has respected it. 

I'm wondering what has changed and why he is pulling back now that it is getting more serious. The bad communication is a sign he is withdrawing, I just don't know why. I find it unkind and unacceptable. 
 

I am going to really stress that the communication was consistent for the majority of our time dating and as of the last few weeks it has changed to no communication for days.

we are not incompatible with our texting. He has shown he can communicate daily because had been doing that for months!!! 
 

He is now pulling back suddenly on his communication , for a reason - I just don't know what exactly. All I know is it's lowering my attraction and willingness to invest. 

Edited May 5, 2023 by rosean
Add text

[Wiseman2]

48 minutes ago, rosean said:

.He is 41 and has intimacy issues and fears vulnerability.

I'm wondering what has changed and why he is pulling back now that it is getting more serious. The bad communication is a sign he is withdrawing, I just don't know why.

Has he told you he "has intimacy issues and struggles with fear and vulnerability"? Or is this your interpretation from his relationship history?  

12 weeks dating is a good time to reassess compatibly and how happy you are. Are you fearing that he's slowing fading rather than making a clear-cut break?

[rosean]

31 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Has he told you he "has intimacy issues and struggles with fear and vulnerability"? Or is this your interpretation from his relationship history?  

12 weeks dating is a good time to reassess compatibly and how happy you are. Are you fearing that he's slowing fading rather than making a clear-cut break?

Yes - he has said he struggles with vulnerability.

he ran into one of my friend's about two months ago and told her he adored me and feels very vulnerable around me.

he also said that he struggled being vulnerable with the two women he dated in the last 20 or so years and that's why they never eventuated to serious relationships. 

He has not been in a serious committed relationship for much of his adulthood and this worries me. He's made some bigger gestures including me in his friendship groups and family, but his sudden communication drop is making me question where he is at.

 

 

 

[Gaeta]

30 minutes ago, rosean said:

he ran into one of my friend's about two months ago and told her he adored me and feels very vulnerable around me.

You can't rely on something he said 2 months ago in such a short relationship. At the time you probably had no more than 2 dates, his comment was based on oxitocine released by the excitement of meeting someone new, not based on *knowing you*.

I think your guy is doing everything he's done in the past, the new relationship energy isn't new anymore so he's slowly distancing himself.

I would not even gone on a 1st date with him sfter knowing he never had a serious relationship at his age.

You have better things to do with your life than to raise a 41 yo to adulthood.

[Wiseman2]

45 minutes ago, rosean said:

He has not been in a serious committed relationship for much of his adulthood and this worries me. .but his sudden communication drop is making me question where he is at.

Unfortunately he may prefer being a bachelor. Only time will tell. He seems into you if you're socializing with his friends and family  As far as the drop off in communication, you've already spoken to him about it and he didn't seem to think responding immediately was an issue for him.

[introverted1]

7 hours ago, rosean said:

I only see a relationship worth investing in if he communicates daily and is committed.

Maybe he only sees a relationship worth investing in with someone who wants sex.

Being in a sexless relationship is not something most people want.  You have been dating for ~4 months.  Perhaps he feels he is seeing the real you and is questioning whether he wants a LTR with someone who (in his view) is either sexually repressed or simply unattracted.

To be clear, I am not questioning your reasons for withholding sex, but I can easily see where you have put a stake in the ground -- daily texts -- as a condition for the relationship, but it's not clear if you have considered what his stakes might be (even if he hasn't articulated them).  I would say that, generally, women need to feel close in order to have sex, whereas men need sex in order to feel close. In a sense, you are both operating in a way that makes it less likely you will give each other what you need.

Edited May 5, 2023 by introverted1
typo