Author Tristram Posted November 22, 2005 Author Posted November 22, 2005 Becoming, I guess I should have been a little clearer. I am trying to judge what she is doing by merit. She already knows what my emotional needs are and what behavior is expected in the future to help prevent this from happening again. If I was to tell her and expect her to do exactly "what I want", then that would make my actions no better then hers. Due to the fact that I surely would do nothing but PUNISH her. That would definatly be the easier route for me, and believe me I would love to do just that. But what if I destroy whatever love she does have for me in the process, would it be worth it? Then what good would it do? Also add the fact that part of me still does love her and would feel terrible for doing so. Does that make more sense?
whichwayisup Posted November 22, 2005 Posted November 22, 2005 But there is nothing she can ever do that will make up for what she has done. No there isn't...The only thing that can happen is relearning how to trust, building confidence together to make the marriage work. It won't be the same as it was, but it could be better. Meaning, the communication will be there always, the appreciation of eachother and never letting anything come between you two again...Understanding eachother and fulfilling each need by the other person. Tris, what you said above is very clear and healthy thinking. Stick with it and together do baby steps. Don't think of next week or next month, just stay in the now.
Author Tristram Posted November 22, 2005 Author Posted November 22, 2005 The only thing that can happen is relearning how to trust, building confidence together to make the marriage work. And there in is my difficulty. I don't know if I can do that. Of course it will depend upon her mostly I believe. All I know is "once burnt, twice shy". In other words, I will probably bail at the slightest provocation on her part. I am not going to further suffer, it's just not worth it. Judas Christian, Thanks for your support. I would not wish this upon anyone, except those that are WS's. And that is only to see the error of their ways.
jonesgirly Posted November 22, 2005 Posted November 22, 2005 Tristram There are people who cannot allow themselves to trust again, once its been broken. I have a large chunk of that thinking within myself. How in the heck can I ever trust a person who obviously wasn't worthy when I did trust them? How will I ever know that they are deserving of it now? I know it was a leap of faith before to have trusted, but NOW I question his worthiness - something I never had to consider, evaluate or think about. Seems like its all I think about........When I see him I think; "How could you have behaved so selfishly while blatantly disregarding MY feelings?" I know that I would NEVER have done anything to cause such hurt, and have far too much respect for him to even consider the "appearance" of it. I guess it just depends on how you feel in your heart. I think your wife is sincerely and genuinely remorseful, but could lighten up on the "look how stupid I was" stuff. Okay, she's made a HUGE, life-changing screw-up. Its time now to pick up the pieces and fix it! This will require an enormous amount of patience on her part. You will not always feel like being nice, and need to have that understood. Doesn't mean you have to become nasty (at least all the time), but that you do indeed have a right to be angry for a while. There was a book I read that seemed to make the most sense as far as how the betraying spouse should behave and/or how to fix the mess they made. It is called (appropriately) "How to Gain Forgiveness and Respect after Your Affair". It was very insightful for me because my husband didn't do one single thing that the book outlines (and its very simple and straight-forward). At the end of the day though, I still wonder if I will be able to stay in the situation after discovering his weapons of mass destruction. I don't know if there is a tried and true method to managing such a heart-felt betrayal. It takes a lot of work to try, but even if you decide in the end that its just not gonna happen, putting forth a good-faith effort now will result in NO regrets in the future.
Becoming Posted November 22, 2005 Posted November 22, 2005 If I was to tell her and expect her to do exactly "what I want", then that would make my actions no better then hers. I'm talking about the things you need to help you see that she means business about working together with you to make a new marriage that's better than the last. I missed that you've already done that. Sorry. You sure are right to want to avoid the "do this because you hurt me" controlling game it'd be easy to fall into!
Author Tristram Posted December 8, 2005 Author Posted December 8, 2005 Update Finished moving, finally got everything connected including ISP. Which is why I have not posted in a while. I still do not know what to do. I know her intentions are genuine and sincere, but I still dont know. I find myself constently questioning my own judgement and rationality. I also did something that physcially hurt her that I have come to regret and feel terrible about. Even though she could have stopped it at anytime. I think I am starting to enter a depressive state. I don't do anything anymore, I don't enjoy anything anymore, I don't like physically being around people anymore, all desire to be intimate with another person is gone. I truly feel dead inside. I am disgusted with and hate myself. I have compromised my own self respect and morality to the extent that I am now nothing. Nothing but a empty shell that wants to die. But no one pity me, for I have created my own prison (that is a song that makes perfect sense now). Take care everyone.
Mz. Pixie Posted December 8, 2005 Posted December 8, 2005 Does this have anything to do with her "Anal sex will make my husband want me more?" If you hurt her in a sexual way, married or not, that's rape Tristam. If you're going that far, then it's time for you to leave.
Author Tristram Posted December 8, 2005 Author Posted December 8, 2005 then it's time for you to leave. I should have been gone long before I ever met her. And yes. I did not force it upon her or insist she did that. She could have said no with out repercussion. Why she decided to I will likely never understand. I will admit I only went through with it because of my desire to punish her. I never really wanted to do that particular thing, I only teased her about it in the past because she was scared of it. And I am a ass for doing all of it. How she described things in her post isnt exactly how it all happened. It takes two, but that is rather irrelevent. As the facts of it all will not change how I feel, or how she does. Well, flame away I know I deserve it.
Trimmer Posted December 8, 2005 Posted December 8, 2005 Oh, man - this is a delicate subject, so I want to tread lightly here, but Mz. Pixie, if that is what Tristram is referring to, and after reading her latest post, then are you really ready to attach the word "rape" to it? They had talked about it, she agreed to do it, and I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume, until I find otherwise, that if she had said "stop" or "no" at any point, that he would have done so immediately. Even if you argue that she was coerced, she still - by her own description - began the act consensually if not enthusiastically. Tristram, did you know you were hurting her at the time? Would you have stopped if you knew? She thinks that you will want to do it again... Knowing that it hurt her, and how she feels about it, would you want her to do it again? And ultimately all these questions, and their answers, may help us understand the kind of person Tristram is, how sensitive and moral a man and lover he is, but all that aside, isn't 'rape' proceeding with the act beyond any point where you no longer have permission? I think if you knew, or even should have known, that you were hurting her, you should have stopped (did you hear her crying?) But I'm not sure it goes all the way to rape. What do you think, Ms. Pixie? Tristram? Tristram - have you and your wife talked about this incident, heart-to-heart, and what is your impression of how she came out of it? Did this happen out of anger, or was it a sexual experiment that didn't work, that went wrong? Respectfully, - T
whichwayisup Posted December 8, 2005 Posted December 8, 2005 Trist, you need to go talk to someone one on one. Get your feelings sorted out and maybe some anti-depressants to get you through this rough time. You don't deserve to be flamed...It's all unfortunate circumstances that has had bad fallouts and reactions... Do take care of yourself. Keep posting too.
Author Tristram Posted December 8, 2005 Author Posted December 8, 2005 Trimmer, At first no, I did not realize how badly it was hurting her. I was to occupied with my own vengefull thoughts. When I did realize she was crying I stopped sat down and thought "why am I doing this". Of course I realized also that after enduring all of that I couldnt let her know it was for nothing. (I do hope she does not read this), so I went back to it for a few seconds, stopped, told her I had one (which I actually didnt), cleaned her up and did my best to comfort her. I feel terrible about it but I can't let her know that, so I pretended like it was the best thing in the world. And no I have zero desire to ever do that again, period. I have no desire for anything else either for that matter. She did it because she believed it would make me happy. I did it for more cynical reasons and feel terrible for it. I wanted to hurt her back, and when I did what I felt was not what I expected. But truly what difference will it all make now. And yes, it was consensual on both sides. Yes, I felt vengefull but I am by no means a completly heartless bastard if that is what everyone is getting at.
whichwayisup Posted December 8, 2005 Posted December 8, 2005 And no I have zero desire to ever do that again, period. I have no desire for anything else either for that matter. Tell her that, she needs to hear it 1000x over and over again. Make it up to her by your love. You aren't a heartless bastard, you got caught up in the moment, a thrill and fantasy, the rest didn't click in your head, her being upset. Again, all i can say is, show you're sorry and do all to make it up to her.
Kenyth Posted December 8, 2005 Posted December 8, 2005 Oh, man! Bad mojo doing that for those reasons. This is why I feel that discovered affairs destroy marriage. Their relationship has become a twisted mockery of what it was. There will be a lot of pain here before it's over on both sides. They're both tearing themselves apart here. Tristram, I know you've been hurt, but you decided to make a go of it and it's past time to make good on that commitment. You can't stick around just to think of how to hurt or punish her. She made a big mistake and deserves to lose you for it, but she doesn't deserve unending torment to atone for it, and neither do you. The sad thing is you make yourself feel all the worse for it. You need to now make a mature decision. Stay or go. If you stay, you must now put all your anger behind you before it turns you into something you'll hate. Your constructive anger has turned into destructive hate. You must no longer feed your hate! You must start attempting to control your thoughts and emotions. In other words, quit thinking about it, and quit getting angry about it. You must accept it and embrace it as reality and the fact it has passed. Find a private place and cry and scream if you must, but let it go. It will be very hard at first, but will be easier as time goes on. You must have conviction!
Grinning Maniac Posted December 8, 2005 Posted December 8, 2005 Seeing as I've now read through both of your previous threads, I call complete bull**** on your wife. If she's an excellent liar in person(and she would have to be) than she's gotta be a guru in text form. Also, think about it in this respect. She knows that you're posting here and that you're looking for advice. She knows that you'll probably take some stock in what people here have to say. What better way to shift things in her favor, than to make herself a sympathy case on LS and ultimately get a few people to believe what she's been telling you? "Oh hey..you know she does sound really sorry Tris. Maybe you should just let bygones be bygones." It's a shame that she showed up. You probably shouldn'tve told her about LS, man. The neutrality of these boards is now essentially dead. It's not like you're going to be quite as free to say whatever's on your mind... Get thee to a counselor! She's putting out conflicting messages BIG TIME and I'm betting on "damage control" and nothing more. It's like the thief who's not at all sorry for stealing, but gets remorseful as hell when the cops start talking about jail time. It's bull****. Look here: 1) What about the note she wrote to the OM that you found in the trash, that ended with something to the tune of: "No matter what. I have no regrets." Have you forgotten about that, Tris? You can bet your ass that she's going to be more honest with her boy-toy than she will be with you (and us) on a PUBLIC FORUM. You want the truth? You found it. 2) I'm sorry but why does it seem from your wife's perspective like she only did this guy *once*? Am I reading her posts wrong? I seem to recall you mentioning that when you asked her when the "last time" she was with OM was...she said "You don't want to know." That suggests a little more frequency than she's letting on. I smell compost, man. Watch out. 3) One last thing...don't believe that line she gave you about only continuing to talk to the OM because she was afraid that if she suddenly stopped, you'd wonder why. That just reeks of BS. Does it really make any sense to you? She's saying that her CEASING the behavior that was making you suspicious, would ultimately tip you off? You've got to be joking. Sorry to be speaking so harshly, but what your wife has said here just seems so off in comparison to what you've been telling us... Like I said, they aint sorry for doing the crime, but they sure are sorry about doing the time...
whichwayisup Posted December 8, 2005 Posted December 8, 2005 Good advice GM. I'm trying to stay netrual here - I feel for both of them. Finger pointing right now isn't gonna do any good but either way something has to give, something has to happen. A decision.
Trimmer Posted December 9, 2005 Posted December 9, 2005 Tristam - My last post crossed yours, (I actually sat writing it and editing it for quite a long time, as you can see from the posting times) and when I wrote it, I didn't understand the emotional state you brought into that encounter. All I can think of is, don't ever mix sex and anger; it sure gets things all twisted up. I'm at a loss... I agree with WWIU - counseling. Find out how you can let some anger out in a safe way.
Mz. Pixie Posted December 9, 2005 Posted December 9, 2005 I haven't read her additional thread. I'm not coming out and saying he's a rapist. I think he's hurt and he's angry. He wanted to punish her. She in her emotional state thought that doing this would show him that she's his- she loves him- and it might make up for what she did. That he did it while she was crying- well, that shows he wanted to punish her and she wanted to take it- because she thinks she deserves it. I'm trying to stay neutral as well. I feel for both sides here. I do truly believe that his wife is sorry for what she did. I don't believe that she's come totally clean about the affair however- and she never replied to my questions/statements in her thread about the affair- where I put some point blank statements to her. What I would like to see is that if Tristam acutally decided to work it out and forgive her that he truly begin to do that and work towards putting their lives back together.
Kenyth Posted December 9, 2005 Posted December 9, 2005 Seeing as I've now read through both of your previous threads, I call complete bull**** on your wife. If she's an excellent liar in person(and she would have to be) than she's gotta be a guru in text form. Also, think about it in this respect. She knows that you're posting here and that you're looking for advice. She knows that you'll probably take some stock in what people here have to say. What better way to shift things in her favor, than to make herself a sympathy case on LS and ultimately get a few people to believe what she's been telling you? "Oh hey..you know she does sound really sorry Tris. Maybe you should just let bygones be bygones." It's a shame that she showed up. You probably shouldn'tve told her about LS, man. The neutrality of these boards is now essentially dead. It's not like you're going to be quite as free to say whatever's on your mind... Get thee to a counselor! She's putting out conflicting messages BIG TIME and I'm betting on "damage control" and nothing more. It's like the thief who's not at all sorry for stealing, but gets remorseful as hell when the cops start talking about jail time. It's bull****. Look here: 1) What about the note she wrote to the OM that you found in the trash, that ended with something to the tune of: "No matter what. I have no regrets." Have you forgotten about that, Tris? You can bet your ass that she's going to be more honest with her boy-toy than she will be with you (and us) on a PUBLIC FORUM. You want the truth? You found it. 2) I'm sorry but why does it seem from your wife's perspective like she only did this guy *once*? Am I reading her posts wrong? I seem to recall you mentioning that when you asked her when the "last time" she was with OM was...she said "You don't want to know." That suggests a little more frequency than she's letting on. I smell compost, man. Watch out. 3) One last thing...don't believe that line she gave you about only continuing to talk to the OM because she was afraid that if she suddenly stopped, you'd wonder why. That just reeks of BS. Does it really make any sense to you? She's saying that her CEASING the behavior that was making you suspicious, would ultimately tip you off? You've got to be joking. Sorry to be speaking so harshly, but what your wife has said here just seems so off in comparison to what you've been telling us... Like I said, they aint sorry for doing the crime, but they sure are sorry about doing the time... That's as may be GM. If he want's to go, then he should go. He's currently decided to stay. He's either going to have to leave or accept this affair and get some closure. Sticking around to just to play in the psycho circus this house has become is just plain unhealthy for the both of them. They'll waste years on pointless torment if they're not careful.
Author Tristram Posted December 9, 2005 Author Posted December 9, 2005 Trimmer, WhichWayIsUp, I do understand what you are both saying. And I did talk with her about it yesterday and told her how I actually felt about it. What I don't understand is why she did not get upset about it. I did not expect her to react happily about what I had to say. Maybe she expected me to feel bad about it and was happy she got the reaction she expected? I don't know what to make of anything anymore. I don't know her or myself anymore I guess. Grinning Maniac, You have pretty much surmised what I think and believe about the whole thing. The only way I could ever know for certain would be for her to take a polygraph. Which is something she refuses to do. I have even said I would take one also just to be fair, but of course I have nothing to hide. She keeps acting like she is stupid and ignorant of everything that happened, I think she is lying and being manipulative to get what she wants. Mz. Pixie, Kenyth, What you have stated is part of my issues with the whole thing. This is not something I will easily get over. I feel she is lying, therefor I cannot accept whatever she tells me as truth. And until I know I have the truth this will remain a open wound for me. Her being truthfully with me about everything past, present, and future will be the only way I will ever have the closure you speak of. I recognize now that will be the only way for me to begin to trust her again.
Mz. Pixie Posted December 9, 2005 Posted December 9, 2005 I'm not saying you're wrong to feel the way you do, I'm just saying don't stay to punish her.
Art_Critic Posted December 9, 2005 Posted December 9, 2005 It's a shame that she showed up. You probably shouldn'tve told her about LS, man. The neutrality of these boards is now essentially dead. It's not like you're going to be quite as free to say whatever's on your mind... Get thee to a counselor! I agree with this 100%.. LS is being used to alter what the other is feeling/thinking
Becoming Posted December 9, 2005 Posted December 9, 2005 Been wondering about you, Tristram. This situation is beyond us here now. For your sake, get some help through this with someone completely confidential who'll just be there for you and help you sort all these horrible overwhelming emotions and events out. You don't deserve to feel this bad, though you have violated your own code of behavior with wanting to make your wife hurt as much as she hurt you. As you now know, revenge really doesn't make things better. Only forgiveness does, and that can take years even with the involvement of a Higher Power who continues to love us no matter what awful things we've done. May that grace surround and cleanse and love you through this terrible, terrible period in your life and pull you out of this pit of self-recrimination. Go to the dr. and get some help. You're depressed, and it's a sneaky disease. And you're in such pain. You deserve to be happy and free to love freely and deeply in a supportive, honest relationship. May that reality become yours.
whichwayisup Posted December 9, 2005 Posted December 9, 2005 I think she's absolutely terrified to completely come clean with you. Fear of hurting you more, fear of losing everything. Maybe she's waiting for a guarantee that you will allow her to tell you the truth 100% so she can feel safe that you won't just walk out on her as she comes clean. I hope she really did read DazednConfused's thread - He has many insights that could help.
Kenyth Posted December 9, 2005 Posted December 9, 2005 Tristram, like it or not, if you want to stay, you're going to have to let it go. If you can't, then do everyone a favor and go bye-bye. Just leave. There will never be enough of this story or enough details to satisfy your craving. It's like drinking salt water to satisfy your thirst. It will provide minimal temporary relief, and slowly make it worse until it kills you. You're hopelessly looking for an explanation that makes you understand and feel better about it. There isn't one. It happened. It happened for any number of 100 reasons, none of which are good enough. That's the end of the basic story. Another reason you might be digging is because you know it makes her uncomfortable. You may be trying to punish her with that too. Regardless, if you're staying, it's all counter productive. Quit while you're ahead, one way or the other.
CaliGuy Posted December 9, 2005 Posted December 9, 2005 Tristam, I was going to write a lot but I think GM hit the nail on head. You distrust your wife and that is no basis for a marriage. I suggest a separation for now and search your soul. If you feel she is not nor ever will come clean, then I suggest you do what you have to break free of this marriage.
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