Is Divorce Necessary if Estranged (for 12 yrs) Spouse is Dying?

[Calendula]

I'm trying to help a friend who is 72 and isn't especially computer literate. Let's call my friend MrsB. She's dealing with some fairly heavy issues and I'm trying to figure out how best to advise and help her. In short, her estranged spouse (let's call him MrT) has recently reentered her life to inform her that he is dying of metastasized prostate cancer. He's been out of her life for most of the past 12 years, with no phone calls or personal contact between them, and CERTAINLY no support from him to her. I'm not entirely certain what he wants from her now, and I'm certain he wants something because he's a narcissistic axxhol, but what my friend wants and needs is more important to me. With his imminent death, my friend is now worried about whether she should pursue steps to get a legal divorce to completely separate her finances and personal business from him before he dies. You can't divorce a dead person. She's also VERY worried about whether she should obtain the necessary paperwork to guarantee that the house she lives in is officially in her name, free and clear. Due to a (BIG) banking error, the title to her house is under some kind of legal dispute because her spouse once managed to take a mortgage out on it in just his name with a local bank, even though his name wasn't even on the Deed and hers was. When the local bank was merged into some other banking conglomerate, the invalid mortgage in his name was declared null and void, and was never fully paid, and the house title went into some kind of limbo (I'm not clear on all the legal details here). This is her home and she truly can't afford to lose it or live anywhere else, as she's barely getting by on subsistence and disability income through government programs. What would you advise and what experiences have you had or witnessed that might compare to this kind of situation? Please read below for more of the story before offering advice, as the history is relevant to the issues at hand. I'll try to keep it as short as I can.   

 

I've known MrsB most of my life, as she bought the house next door to the one I grew up in when I was about 6. She's the kind of person who loves everyone and talks incessantly, she is giving and outgoing, and she is exceedingly caring and attentive. She has an excellent memory and worries about making everyone happy, even at her own expense. She also has extreme ADHD (untreated for most of her life) and she struggles with anxiety and depression (with good reason). Her second marriage to MrT lasted for about 23 years, ending in 2011. I'm unclear on the exact timeline and dates, but what I present is close enough for the purposes of discussion. By that time, 2011, she had experienced some pretty significant physical and emotional abuse at his hand and was a complete psychological and emotional mess. I can't even begin to do justice to the levels of horror he put her through, and I'm sure all too many people on this site are familiar with the kinds of abusive things that occurred. For some of it I don't think she'll ever truly heal. In some ways it was almost a relief to her when he abandoned her completely to go live with a new girlfriend (MsQ) in another state. MrT 's abandonment of MrsB occurred without the two of them ever obtaining a divorce; he just up and left one day to go live with MsQ and MANY things were left unresolved by this behavior. 

 

While MrsB cut phone and personal contact with MrT, she never really dealt with all the stages of grief regarding the end of her relationship with him. She also never sought legal or financial resolution or restitution for multiple reasons, including her ADHD, her emotional turmoil, her limited financial means, and her limited ability to find information or use technology. MrsB currently lives alone, doesn't have much of a true social or family support system, and I wasn't a regular part of her life back in the 2011-2019 time frame. I now live across the street from her, I see and/or talk with her at least weekly, and I help her with all sorts of personal and technical things. In the time MrT has been gone, MrsB has kept loose tabs on him and his doings through her few family and social connections that also knew him and still have occasional contact with him. This is how we know what we do know. She never really moved on with her life, but she also kind of couldn't move on because she was still legally tied to this person who abused and abandoned her.

 

So now MrT is back in town (kind of). His girlfriend (MsQ) was diagnosed with stage 4 metastasized breast cancer last fall and he was diagnosed with metastasized prostate cancer shortly after. By what reports we've had, the relationship between MrT and MsQ was never an especially healthy one (I think he got what he deserved in that regard; thanks Karma), but it apparently deteriorated to the point of even more reciprocal physical and emotional abuse between the two of them when faced with the burdens of their respective cancers and imminent mortality. So MrT has now left MsQ to live in a friend's hunting cabin (Where he'll probably die. Alone). This location is within about an hour drive of where MrsB lives and their mutual friends (who own the cabin) were the ones who initially told her this had occurred. MrT made multiple efforts to again contact MrsB over the past few weeks and his persistence finally led to them speaking on the phone for several hours. She was (understandably) an emotional mess after this conversation and I'm still hearing about it. So much was left unresolved between them and his re-initiating of contact has opened a lot of old, unhealed wounds for MrsB.

 

This renewed emotional turmoil makes it even harder for MrsB to think clearly about how to interact with him, how to protect herself and her heart, how to get what she needs from him, legally, before he dies, and, in general, how to cope. She's being forced to deal with something MAJOR that she has been avoiding dealing with directly for more than a decade, even though it has weighed heavily on her mentally and emotionally for all of that time. I worry that she does STILL need to divorce him to protect herself from any bad debts or financial burdens he's accumulated with his disreputable way of living (he was always a bit shady about his construction business and financial management). I think a legal divorce would also give her some sense of closure, as it is something she's told herself she needs and wants for more than a decade. But would a divorce be the best way to handle the situation for her? Won't the title to the house just become hers anyway when he dies if he is still married to her? Could she benefit from whatever assets he's accumulated (probably not many left at this point) if she was still married to him when he died? What other things should we be considering here? 

 

And as far as how he feels about any of this, I have a really hard time caring about that, and normally I'm a very caring person. I've seen and remember well the consequences of what he put her through. I've heard her stories time and again and they never get better. I'm sure she wasn't blameless in their relationship difficulties, but regardless of what part she contributed, NO ONE deserves to be treated the way he treated her. The only reason and way in which I'll even consider what he feels or thinks about any of this is in terms of how it might help MrsB get what she needs or wants from him before he dies. I'm not above using his emotions to her benefit. MrsB is such a caring and giving person that she is easily manipulated, is ridiculously gullible, is emotionally fragile, and would count as an easy mark to any con man. She wants so very desperately to believe the lies I suspect he'll tell her and she struggles to maintain boundaries and protect herself emotionally. And he is the kind of person who will tell her whatever he thinks will work to get something from her, even on his death bed. I've even volunteered to drive her out to see him once she has papers in hand for him to sign, so that I can serve as a witness and possibly interfere if their interaction goes sideways. I want to protect my friend and I'm doing the best I can, but I know there is only so much I can do to protect her from herself. There's a point at which you've done all you can to help and you have to step back and let people to do what they will, regardless of whether or not it is going to be good for them. I'm not there yet, but I know the signs and I can recognize it when it comes. 

 

So I ask you, what advice can I give her to help her though this? What perspective can you offer me to help me better deal with this situation? What is your take on any of this and can you offer me pieces of your experiences to help me better understand some of what my friend is going through? 

[glows]

It’s important not to become so emotionally enmeshed and dependent on the outcome of her well-being. I understand you’re a caring person who has known this older person since you were a child but the ins and outs of her situation need to be dealt with by a lawyer in that jurisdiction. The forum is not permitted to give any legal advice specific to one situation. 

Advise her to look for pro bono help if she can’t afford a lawyer or seek assistance from any programs available to the elderly. What their relationship was like or any of the parties’ love lives are irrelevant to the property issue.

[Calendula]

I absolutely plan to pursue appropriate legal advice locally. I know that is something she needs sooner rather than later. I'll be making phone calls this coming week to try and help her find a lawyer who might be willing to work within her financial means who also has expertise in divorce, estate, and (hopefully) property issues. I don't expect the forum to offer legal advice in this regard, but I am rather interested in whether other people have had similar types of experiences and how things worked out for them. I'm also concerned that there might be something we're overlooking that we need to be considering as I try and help her through this situation. 

 

 

As far as being "emotionally enmeshed and dependent on the outcome of her well-being," I think I'm OK in that regard. I'm good at setting my own emotional and personal boundaries and sticking to them, even in the face of another's apparent distress. I do give a lot, but I learned the hard way, years ago, how much I can realistically give without giving too much of myself (time, energy, money, space) to other people. I also learned long ago the lesson of when to step away from a circumstance and how important it is to let people make their own decisions. I can offer advice, encouragement, and support, but it isn't my job or responsibility to make someone's decisions for them or to try and tell them how to live their life. They are the one who has to live with the consequences of their choices, not me, so it is up to them what they decide and what they do with whatever information I might provide to them. And so my support usually takes the form of providing resources, perspectives, and information, so at least they can make a more informed decision, even if their decision isn't one I'd necessarily make for myself. When helping others, I try to live by the principle of, "It is your life, your choice, and your consequences. I support you in whatever you ultimately decide, even to the point where your decision means I can no longer be a part of your world." I know when to step away. 

 

[glows]

Unfortunately you do seem very emotionally invested to the point of inserting your own opinion into whether she should be divorced or being manipulated yourself into believing she is fragile and needs your help. Many of the questions need to be addressed by a lawyer. Distance yourself from any outcome at all, absolutely zero interest. If you can’t do that then you’re not an appropriate person to be helping or giving her advice. You care about her a great deal but whether she divorced or loses her house, kindly, is not any of your business.

At one point above you had mentioned not being above using her ex to her benefit (quote below) suggests you are far too emotionally involved in this to be of any real help in terms of advice. 

Quote

The only reason and way in which I'll even consider what he feels or thinks about any of this is in terms of how it might help MrsB get what she needs or wants from him before he dies. I'm not above using his emotions to her benefit. 

All you can do is point her in the direction of professional help and guidance and distance yourself from the outcome as it doesn’t concern you. Try not to get involved with any issues with her relationships with this ex or his relationship with others. One might think that she is the one manipulating you in this situation and having you overextend your time and effort. Think also about the effect this is having on your mental health. Leave the rest to the professionals.

[Calendula]

3 minutes ago, glows said:

Unfortunately you do seem very emotionally invested to the point of inserting your own opinion into whether she should be divorced or being manipulated yourself into believing she is fragile and needs your help. Many of the questions need to be addressed by a lawyer. Distance yourself from any outcome at all, absolutely zero interest. If you can’t do that then you’re not an appropriate person to be helping or giving her advice. You care about her a great deal but whether she divorced or loses her house, kindly, is not any of your business.

At one point above you had mentioned not being above using her ex to her benefit (quote below) suggests you are far too emotionally involved in this to be of any real help in terms of advice. 

All you can do is point her in the direction of professional help and guidance and distance yourself from the outcome as it doesn’t concern you. Try not to get involved with any issues with her relationships with this ex or his relationship with others. One might think that she is the one manipulating you in this situation and having you overextend your time and effort. Think also about the effect this is having on your mental health. Leave the rest to the professionals.

You have valid points here. I suppose I am emotionally invested in terms of caring about my friend and caring about what happens to her. And I do have fairly strong opinions about her estranged husband. I've certainly taken a side in that regard. I wouldn't go so far as to say that she is consciously manipulating me (she's not that calculating), but I can see how it might look that way from the outside. I do appreciate the perspective and the advice for myself and my own involvement and I'll certainly keep it in mind moving forward. And this would be part of the reason for why I find it helpful to write about such things to an anonymous audience. You're right that it does weigh on my mind and worry me, but it is a fairly minor nuisance relative to many of the things I have dealt with or currently face.  

 

Besides for a lawyer and possibly some kind of professional therapy, what other types of "professional help" would you suggest I try and help her find? Anything in particular come to mind in that regard?

 

[JTSW]

She doesn't owe him anything.

He has come crawling wanting her to look after him because no-one else will.

I first though that as his wife she would be entitled to his estate when he dies, but then you mentioned that he has allot of debt.

I strongly agree now that she should divorce him so she is not lumbered with his debt.

She needs to seek legal advice as soon as she can.

[mark clemson]

On 1/22/2023 at 7:26 AM, Calendula said:

Besides for a lawyer and possibly some kind of professional therapy, what other types of "professional help" would you suggest I try and help her find? Anything in particular come to mind in that regard?

Hospice services might be helpful, particularly if they're free or low cost.

[Wiseman2]

On 1/22/2023 at 9:05 AM, Calendula said:

  what advice can I give her to help her though this? 

Yes find an affordable attorney for her. In the meantime she can run her credit score, check all her accounts with her financial institutions including whose name is on any titles and deeds. She can also look up tax returns and other financial documents. She can also check property and other public  records even if he filed for divorce some place.  She will need most of this information anyway to supply accurate information to an attorney.

There's a lot of public or  (her personal)  banking information available. As far as whether it's beneficial to divorce or wait to be widowed, that's much too complex and individual a situation to speculate. Everything from abandonment to many other legal and financial complications.   But no matter what, she needs to research her own assets and financial standing.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Wiseman2

[Lotsgoingon]

She needs to get to a divorce attorney. Keep in mind that different states have different rules about divorce AND they apply the same rules in different ways.

Law isn't always what's on the books. Law is also the history of how people in a jurisdiction interpret the words.

Only a good local lawyer (family law or divorce law) will know the details. 

Now to the important stuff: you cannot protect your friend. Sorry, it ain't possible. She's a full adult and if she is a bad decisionmaker, there is little to nothing that you can do. Beware that you're talking about her the way a parent would talk about an intellectually disabled child, as if she can't thrive without you.

You may be right: that your buddy is passive and clueless and gullible and vulnerable. Unfortunately you can't fix this unless she agrees to do EVERYTHING you say. And that almost never happens.

Example: when my father was in his last years, he basically let me make medical decisions for him. Whatever I'd recommend, he'd go ahead and do. He consciously did this because he trusted my judgment and trusted me and felt too tired and exhausted to make those decisions. But I would usually recommend steps that I know that he would take if he were thinking about the problem. So there are times when we can help other people's decisions, but in those cases, the original person needs to be wise enough to turn over decision making to someone else they really trust. 

FYI: typically in situations like this, the person in your position is neglecting their own life in hopes of saving someone else's life. You want to give suggestions if asked and let go. If your friend hasn't learned from a lifetime of experience how to protect herself and act smartly, I' sorry you can't fix that. Pretending otherwise is really harmful for you.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Lotsgoingon

[Calendula]

On 1/23/2023 at 5:56 AM, JTSW said:

She doesn't owe him anything.

He has come crawling wanting her to look after him because no-one else will.

I first though that as his wife she would be entitled to his estate when he dies, but then you mentioned that he has allot of debt.

I strongly agree now that she should divorce him so she is not lumbered with his debt.

She needs to seek legal advice as soon as she can.

Fortunately, I'm reasonably sure he hasn't asked her to take care of him. He's sought help from other friends that he still has relationships with. I think he knows he screwed their relationship up too much to even think of asking that of her. If he did ask, I'm reasonably certain she would say, "no way!" If she didn't outright refuse him and instead chose to be a part of his final days, that would be her choice to make and live with. If she were to choose this path, I hope that it would bring her some sense of closure and peace rather than becoming a further burden and wound on her already damaged psyche. 

From a great deal of reading I've determined that legally, in the United States, debt carried by one individual in a marriage isn't automatically inherited by the spouse, even though plenty of debt collection agencies would probably prefer for said spouse to believe otherwise. The estate of the individual is typically used to settle any debts carried solely by that individual, and then whatever is left gets passed on to beneficiaries according to the individual's Will (if there is one) and then according to state-specific and somewhat convoluted inheritance rules. There are, of course, contingencies and caveats to this (some things bypass probate and the Will and get inherited directly), every situation is unique, and every individual should absolutely seek professional legal advice pertaining to their own situation. My main point here is that it is important to NOT just accept that you are responsible for your spouse's debt because a CREDITOR is asking for you to pay it after they die. This was something MrsB believed, too, so at least I could put her mind at ease on this count. 

[Calendula]

On 1/28/2023 at 11:49 AM, mark clemson said:

Hospice services might be helpful, particularly if they're free or low cost.

Fortunately, MrsB isn't at risk of imminent demise, so I don't think that hospice is going to be of any assistance to her. MrT, however, may well be eligible and may be using such services, but that is his business and I know nothing of it.

[Calendula]

On 1/28/2023 at 2:21 PM, Wiseman2 said:

Yes find an affordable attorney for her. In the meantime she can run her credit score, check all her accounts with her financial institutions including whose name is on any titles and deeds. She can also look up tax returns and other financial documents. She can also check property and other public  records even if he filed for divorce some place.  She will need most of this information anyway to supply accurate information to an attorney.

There's a lot of public or  (her personal)  banking information available. As far as whether it's beneficial to divorce or wait to be widowed, that's much too complex and individual a situation to speculate. Everything from abandonment to many other legal and financial complications.   But no matter what, she needs to research her own assets and financial standing.

Thanks for the suggestions. We've already pursued and obtained some of these kinds of publicly and personally available documents and we may look into some of the others. One of the first things I helped her do when I started helping her with technology-related personal stuff a few years back was to help her get free copies of her credit reports from all three credit reporting agencies. I now help her get them annually, just as I do for my own. From the info in these credit reports she is reasonably sure her name isn't linked to his on any current financial accounts and she is familiar with all of the things that still show up on her financial record. When we first did this, it was a huge relief to her to see her financial info as it then stood. She'd worked for years to improve her credit rating and pay off debt incurred by MrT on some of her accounts, so she was finally able to celebrate the accomplishment of obtaining a quality credit score after many years of hard work and not knowing. Even so, considering anything related to her financial concerns tends to set off her anxiety and can even trigger panic attacks. I think it has helped her to have me to talk to about things, though I mostly just listen and help her find information. It isn't my place to tell her how to manage her affairs and I regularly tell her things like, "you need to decide that for yourself because you are the one who will live with the consequences of that decision." Some might think I shouldn't even know her business, but she trusts me and I value and respect her trust. I know that she wants to be able to make informed decisions and that can be hard to do for someone who struggles to find relevant and current information. 

 

I went with her to the local public services center about a week ago and helped her navigate the system to access copies of all the public records she could obtain pertaining to herself, her husband and her property. People in both the Probate Office and the Tax Assessors Office were very helpful about enabling her to get copies of things like the deed to the house she lives in, mortgage records, her marriage certificate, and tax records. All of these things are part of the public record and can be freely accessed, but you have to know where to go and who to ask in order to get them. And you have to know you can even go look for them. These were things she didn't know, she had no idea even where to start, and she was therefore really anxious about doing it. I mostly provided guidance and encouragement and we were able to leave with a lot more definite information than we had when we started. 

 

As far as divorce goes, she almost filed around the time they split about a decade ago, but then he talked her out of it and she never subsequently followed through. I seriously doubt he ever filed for divorce against her, and she certainly was never served papers accordingly. 

 

There is an amazing amount of information out there in the world, ready for the finding, but someone like my friend is severely handicapped when trying to find it on her own. She truly struggles with technology (computers are scary and she barely knows how to turn off notifications on her smart phone) and even navigating simple tasks can become challenging when her ADHD is in full force, reinforced by her anxiety and depression. Often, especially when I'm helping her with something, she tells me that my steady progression through a task from point A to B to C to D to conclusion seems almost miraculous to her. For me, accomplishing the task isn't a big deal and takes me relatively little effort or time, but for her it seems insurmountable. At least until I help guide her through it. Sometimes people just need a little bit of help, but it has to be help they can trust. 

[Calendula]

On 1/28/2023 at 2:21 PM, Lotsgoingon said:

She needs to get to a divorce attorney. Keep in mind that different states have different rules about divorce AND they apply the same rules in different ways.

Law isn't always what's on the books. Law is also the history of how people in a jurisdiction interpret the words.

Only a good local lawyer (family law or divorce law) will know the details. 

Now to the important stuff: you cannot protect your friend. Sorry, it ain't possible. She's a full adult and if she is a bad decisionmaker, there is little to nothing that you can do. Beware that you're talking about her the way a parent would talk about an intellectually disabled child, as if she can't thrive without you.

About a week ago, before we went to the county services center (see my posts above), MrsB and I spent the day on the phone and the computer researching and contacting free legal services agencies that she might be eligible for. There were three organizations in our area that provide free legal aid to certain qualified individuals in need and MrsB certainly qualifies. Even this, though, wasn't a simple thing to navigate. It required access to a phone, the internet and email, a computer with the necessary current software, a printer and a scanner, the ability to navigate various web pages and search for information online, and the ability to identify relevant and useful information and act upon it. This might seem simple to someone in their 40s, 50s, and most youngsters, but to someone who is essentially computer illiterate, technologically challenged, and in their 70s, this seemingly simple task would be impossible. My friend isn't stupid or intellectually disabled and I don't believe that I talk about her or think about her that way. She is, however, officially, psychologically, and medically disabled, and there are therefore many things she struggles to learn and has difficulty doing. It is incredibly frustrating for  her as an intelligent adult to not be able to do the things she knows she NEEDS to do because of things other people take for granted and this frustration piles on top of all her other struggles. You're right that I can't protect her from her own poor decisions and I know better than to try to do so. Her life, her decisions, her consequences; I wouldn't try to make it otherwise. My goal is and has always been to to provide her with the kind of help and assistance that enables her to do things she otherwise couldn't do. To empower her to make informed decisions and to take actions she would otherwise struggle to take alone. Things that she knows she NEEDS to do, and that she trusts me to help her with. I take that trust very seriously and treat it with respect, perhaps even more so than others might, because I know how hard it is for her to set aside her pride and ask me for help to begin with. We did manage to get her in touch with a free lawyer, eventually, but it wasn't a simple process and she absolutely would NOT have been able to navigate said process without assistance. I always find it ironic that the people who most need help are typically those least able to obtain what help there may be for the having. At least for my friend I could help remove those barriers to assistance. Below is what was involved in getting her in touch with a lawyer. To help her with this process I had to be privy to much of her personal information and she therefore wouldn't have been willing to accept help from someone unknown to her that she didn't trust as she does me.  

For the first organization we left a voicemail in the morning and someone called us back by the end of that day. For this first one, there was one lawyer providing services to four counties worth of people, they were currently scheduling appointments for EIGHT months out, and they weren't qualified to litigate in court, do anything with deeds or divorce, or serve papers - the three things MrsB probably needed. The things they could do were to provide general legal counselling, help with writing up basic Wills and Powers of Attorney, and provide basic types of Estate advice. So she made the appointment to talk to someone in August about her own Estate, but these people weren't going to be able to help her with her more pressing issues.  

For the second organization, I helped MrsB complete and submit an online application form. We tried to call this organization to talk with someone but we ended up on hold for three hours as the number of people ahead of us in the call line dwindled from 45 to 12 before we gave up on that to take the call back from the first organization. The response to the emailed application came a few days later with someone calling MrsB to confirm her information and let her know that she would have to wait 6-8 weeks before a lawyer might be available to contact her about her problems. Again, not especially helpful when considering possibly time sensitive issues. 

For the third organization, I helped MrsB submit an online contact request that led to a return call a few hours later. The person we spoke with then emailed us a detailed application that had to be completed and sent back for review before they could refer her to a local lawyer. I helped her access the application and print it, she filled it out, and then I scanned it to PDF and we emailed it back to the organization. We could have received and returned the application by Snail Mail, but that would have taken much more time (of which we are short). These people called her a few days later to again review her income information and case issues (basically everything she'd already filled in on the application) and then told her she'd be called by the local (to her) chapter of their organization. The first person we talked to for this organization told us it would only take three to five business days before she'd have a chance to talk to lawyer and this was indeed the case. I wasn't present when she finally got that call just two days ago, but I certainly heard about it that evening while talking her down from a severe panic attack. Getting in touch with a lawyer was a HUGE milestone, but there are still many challenges she has to work through and most of them are now in her own head and heart. 

So, at the moment, MrsB now has a lawyer (HOORAY!), she has gathered what paperwork she can concerning her issues, and she is now working on the next, more emotional, stages of her process and objectives. She has a path forward and I plan to do what I can to support her as she navigates it. If she could have done these things alone in the 12 years she and her estranged husband have been separated, I think she would have. But she didn't, because she couldn't, for lots of complicated reasons. Sometimes people just need help and there is never any shame in asking for it, accepting it, or giving it, especially when it is done with care and respect.