Girls don't initiate anything, do they?

[MarcoInaros]

I know this is kind of stereotypical, but girls do not initiate anything in terms of starting a relationship. That entire burden is on the man, who must ask as many girls out as possible, putting his ego on the line, hoping that maybe one will go out with him. And then they still don't initiate anything probably until after a few dates, when she begins to trust him I suppose.

 

Men who are nice, and who rarely initiate, will never get any. And women will percieve that he does not initiate will avoid him even more, because he lacks the desireable male characteristics of being bold and domineering.

 

So really, the paradox of feminism is that they want to disassemble these gender stereotypes, while at the same time feminists reinforce these stereotypes.

 

Is my analysis correct?

[Art_Critic]

Until I was in my late 30's I had never asked a girl out before..

 

They had alway's asked me out.. Including the woman that became my ex-wife..

 

I will say that when a woman asks a man out it has alway's been my experience that getting some was almost a sure deal..

 

So even in that aspect they initiated it.. in a way.. I just followed their lead and took the ball from there

[IhavenoFREAKINclue]

In a way you are correct. It's old fashioned. Just like the man is supposed to ask the woman to marry her. The man is supposed to pay for dinner etc. Its a nasty stereotype but its true. Occasionally you get your assertive woman (like myself) who takes it upon herself to approach a guy. Are you trying to tell me if you see a cute girl, you won't approach her b/c you think she should initiate it? You would never get laid! its ben done for hundreds of years and it will continue.....just have to deal with it hun.

[SmoochieFace]

I believe your analysis has some truth to it but I always like to go against the grain when it comes to relationships. I do not approach women so THEY can put THEIR egos on the line instead.

 

I gave up approaching way back in HS when it wasn't working. I decided to quit being insane - *insanity* defined as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results! So now if they want me they come to me. No more of this games *beep*.

[scratch]

Until I was in my late 30's I had never asked a girl out before..

 

They had alway's asked me out.

 

Art, I think you're in the minority. More to the point, I believe your experiences in being the quarry rather than the pursuer were a product of being unsuccessful with women rather than successful with women. Did you want to ask women out or be more aggressive?

 

Jeff, you are significantly overstating the point when you say men must initiate everything. Yes, you have to take most of the risks in terms of asking for a number, asking for a date, and going for a kiss. But a woman who is interested will take steps to let you know your risks are likely to pay off.

 

Yes, feminism has some paradoxical aspects, but this isn't one of them. The rules here apply to men and women alike. You want to ask out who you like? So, ask. You want to limit yourself only to the people who ask you? So, don't ask.

 

Finally, why do you think it's nice to refrain from initiating conversation with women, or asking them out?

[SmoochieFace]

But a woman who is interested will take steps to let you know your risks are likely to pay off.

 

 

This is my biggest issue. I am denser than platinum in this regard.

 

Think "Asperger's."

[Art_Critic]

Art, I think you're in the minority. More to the point, I believe your experiences in being the quarry rather than the pursuer were a product of being unsuccessful with women rather than successful with women. Did you want to ask women out or be more aggressive?

 

Jeff, you are significantly overstating the point when you say men must initiate everything. Yes, you have to take most of the risks in terms of asking for a number, asking for a date, and going for a kiss. But a woman who is interested will take steps to let you know your risks are likely to pay off.

 

You make a couple of good points Scratch.. But my younger years were dedicated to my work and the women that asked me out filled up my free time so there was no need to ask a woman out..

There were plenty of women in my life at the time so I guess I had the why bother attitude..

 

And your point about Jeff taking more chances is right on target.. I even hinted about that in my first post..

You have to follow their lead sometimes in order to know which way to go.

 

I would like to add that today is a different story for me.. Age has a way of changing things..

When I was in my 20's and successfull they were all over me.. today in my 40's and successful .. I'm not in the minority anymore.. and I have to put forth the effort of pursuing a conversation with a woman.

 

So I think a lot of it depends on what the guy is offering to how hard he has to work for it

[JS17]

Jeff, you're back Honestly, I think you'll find the information that you're looking for on an SA site but everyone here is right. It doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman, you have to learn how to take chances. It's so tempting when you have SA to take what comes to you, it's the easy way out. CBT has had a lot of success...as hard as it is you should try to force yourself to go out and talk to women and maintain positive thinking. So what if she rejects you, SHE's the loser in the situation.

 

(If you want you can PM me about good SA books & sites:cool: )

[MarcoInaros]

Yes, feminism has some paradoxical aspects, but this isn't one of them. The rules here apply to men and women alike. You want to ask out who you like? So, ask. You want to limit yourself only to the people who ask you? So, don't ask.

 

Finally, why do you think it's nice to refrain from initiating conversation with women, or asking them out?

 

I converse with attractive women all the time, but I usually don't get the feeling that they are interested in me. One time I did and I asked for her number, she willingly gave it to me, and I called her twice asking her out. She sounded irritated at the end of the second phone call and told me she would call me back which she never did.

 

People tell me that I am handsome, and yet I am 25 and haven't kissed a girl. This is proof that women do not initiate anything, and that it is all up to the man.

[elijahBailey]

This is proof that women do not initiate anything, and that it is all up to the man.

 

There are so many ways of lookin at things jeff.

 

The way I look at it, it's all pretty cool that men do the initiating. At least you have some control over who you want to impress. And, if you're lacking in the confidence department (and it sure looks like you are ), you can do something about it to increase your success rate. But, what about women who are totally lacking in the looks department? They can't change the way they look, and they can't initiate. You wanna be in their shoes? Don't play the blame game.

[scratch]

I converse with attractive women all the time, but I usually don't get the feeling that they are interested in me. One time I did and I asked for her number, she willingly gave it to me, and I called her twice asking her out. She sounded irritated at the end of the second phone call and told me she would call me back which she never did.

 

People tell me that I am handsome, and yet I am 25 and haven't kissed a girl. This is proof that women do not initiate anything, and that it is all up to the man.

 

I think your anecdote cuts against your original point. You initiated with a woman you suspected was interested, followed up and struck out despite the fact that you were "bold and domineering."

 

Look, you want to accomplish certain goals with respect to women. For starters, you probably want to kiss one before they make a documentary film about you. So, take the world the way it is and figure out how to best accomplish your goals.

 

Maybe take a page out of Art's book. Work your ass off and become a professional success. This will make you more appealing to many women because a) some women find professional success attractive and b) you won't seem desperate to women because you hardly will have time for them. Eventually someone will approach.

 

I've been approached by women maybe 10 or 20 times in my life. Usually I wasn't interested. I've approached women far more often, and usually they aren't interested. When I have approached someone and ended up succeeding, most of the time they would make it pretty clear that they were available to me. Sometimes I just took a shot and it worked out. The point is, there are any number of permutations for this sort of thing, and the best way to avail yourself to any and all of them is to keep trying. The metaphor I like is that if you keep chopping wood, eventually the tree falls.

[Walk]

Don't go getting all "woe is me". Women got the short end of the stick. Men judge us mostly from our looks, and there's no getting around that. No matter how great a personality we have, or how funny, or intelligent we are.

 

If we approach a man and pursue him, then usually we're pushy and too assertive. Half the men hate women that pursue, others don't really care, but see them as quasi sluts.

 

It has never worked out for me in pursuing a man. The only relationships that lasted were the ones where the man pursued me.

 

And women aren't nearly half as picky about a man's looks as men are about women. Though I would say more picky about status, and income. (hate to say it, but it seems like that.)

[noclobber]

Don't go getting all "woe is me". Women got the short end of the stick. Men judge us mostly from our looks, and there's no getting around that. No matter how great a personality we have, or how funny, or intelligent we are.

 

If we approach a man and pursue him, then usually we're pushy and too assertive. Half the men hate women that pursue, others don't really care, but see them as quasi sluts.

 

It has never worked out for me in pursuing a man. The only relationships that lasted were the ones where the man pursued me.

 

And women aren't nearly half as picky about a man's looks as men are about women. Though I would say more picky about status, and income. (hate to say it, but it seems like that.)

 

Men choose based on looks b'cos their needs are different. Same goes to women!

 

A man will go after a beautiful woman because he thinks she will satisfy his physical needs. A woman will try to lure a man that is rich b'cos she believes he can be a good provider.

 

Atleast a woman's looks are a part of her personality, but a man being judged based on his bank account??? huh... how shallow is that!!

 

It cuts both ways!! So quit blaming men.

[Neptune]

lostjeff,

I feel your pain. Have been there and done that. The first thing is to develop your self awareness. Take a good look at yourself and think what you need to do to be more attractive. Clothes or whatever. Then study a lot, read books on dating. The most important thing is to always be asking yourself what women you KNOW are attracted to you. That means all women regardless of age weight or whatever.

 

If you can say none whatsoever then you either are very unattractive or don`t have a clue to the signals women are giving you.

 

Just asking women out is not good enough. You have to have a plan. That plan is mostly just being in control of your life and having a direction and enthusiasm.

 

The women are there for the taking. Good luck with them:rolleyes:

[seachange]

Atleast a woman's looks are a part of her personality

 

Surreal...how d'ya figure?

[GuySimple]

There is an old (not really old actually only a couple of minutes) proverb that goes something like this “He who sits in the middle of the square, keeps his mouth shut and smiles gets many dates”.

 

Hey, you’re a guy, accept that when a woman say’s yes to you she is slumming it. Honestly, when you see a couple or more women interacting together, just about anywhere, the fact that they even go out with men is down right amazing.

 

Sorry, I’m a guy and proud of it, but I am convinced that the reason that women don’t initiate dates or sex more is because they can’t dumb themselves down enough to get to that level.

 

Sorry guys. We are good a lots of things but emotional intelligence is not one of them.

[katiebour]

My current SO first initiated online contact with me via MySpace- I had seen his profile before but thought "he is sooo good-looking- way outta my league." After we got to talking online, and then met in person, we were both anxious to get to know each other more, yet neither one of us not wanting to appear desperate. We'd have conversations that went like this:

 

"I had a great time talking to you yesterday..."

 

"Me too, we should do it again sometime!"

 

"Yeah, sounds great. Just let me know when you'd like to get together again..."

 

"Is tomorrow too soon?"

 

"Tomorrow would be great!"

 

 

I actually initiated contact via email and messenger and our first date. He didn't want to scare me away by appearing too interested, so it was left up to me to act on his cues.

 

I did initiate our physical relationship, although he primed the pump by taking off his shirt to show me his nipple piercings... got my motor running, I tell ya!

 

I still initiate lovemaking probably 85% of the time, but my sex-drive is a bit stronger than his, and so I have a hard time waiting for him to make a move!

 

He initiates our snuggle-thons about 75% of the time- I love snuggling too, but he likes it even more than me!

 

I guess my impatient nature leads to me taking charge when I don't want to wait, and since he is an eager-to-please sub, I tend to lead a lot. But he always has the final say, whether it be sex, where to eat, what movies to see, or whose house to sleep at.

 

Although I tend to initiate more often then not, it just makes those times when he jumps me, or asks to go somewhere, that much more exciting and important. Since he asks so rarely, I always acquiese when he does because I want him to feel that his needs and desires are being met, and it makes me happy to make him happy.

 

So some girls do initiate; just depends on the girl.

[Walk]

Men choose based on looks b'cos their needs are different. Same goes to women!

 

A man will go after a beautiful woman because he thinks she will satisfy his physical needs. A woman will try to lure a man that is rich b'cos she believes he can be a good provider.

 

Atleast a woman's looks are a part of her personality, but a man being judged based on his bank account??? huh... how shallow is that!!

 

It cuts both ways!! So quit blaming men.

 

I'm not blamming men. It's the way things work. It's neither right nor wrong, just is. Shallow is seen at many different levels.

 

And genetics aren't a part of my personality. That's my appearance. Genetics may shape my personality, but aren't responsible for it. Your bank account however, could be consituted as sign of your personality. It can tell about your work ethic, your ability to save, your views on life, your needs, and ambitions, your ability to take care of yourself and possibly others you care about.

 

However, because I'm blonde or brunette... ? Or an A cup or a D cup? You better be more honest then that Mister. Call it like it is, and stop hiding behind garbage. Men want a woman who's hot because they're visual creatures! That's it in a nut shell. If she's got a great personality, bonus. If not, kick her out before the roomates get home.

 

Don't sugar coat it with soft words like "personality".

[noclobber]

I'm not blamming men. It's the way things work. It's neither right nor wrong, just is. Shallow is seen at many different levels.

 

And genetics aren't a part of my personality. That's my appearance. Genetics may shape my personality, but aren't responsible for it. Your bank account however, could be consituted as sign of your personality. It can tell about your work ethic, your ability to save, your views on life, your needs, and ambitions, your ability to take care of yourself and possibly others you care about.

 

However, because I'm blonde or brunette... ? Or an A cup or a D cup? You better be more honest then that Mister. Call it like it is, and stop hiding behind garbage. Men want a woman who's hot because they're visual creatures! That's it in a nut shell. If she's got a great personality, bonus. If not, kick her out before the roomates get home.

 

Don't sugar coat it with soft words like "personality".

 

 

looks like u r all fired up walk! u r right in saying that men r visual creatures. thats the way we r.. we get turned on by beauty, we r wired to respond that way.

 

if a woman falls for me and then i figure out that it was only b'cos i am rich it wud hurt me like hell 'cos she didn't find anything appealing about me (my personality/character).. ha i am sugar-coating again ain't i? but if a man goes after a woman b'cos she is beautiful i think she wud actually feel happy cos the beauty is a part of her... its about her, not something external.

 

i hear women complain that men see them only as objects of beauty and then see the same women applying loads of make-up... beats me

 

that said, if a guy comes after u just b'cos u r a blonde he is as shallow as a woman that runs after a guy only b'cos he has the dollars. that's the point i am driving at.

 

by the way, i read ur other post and am happy that u had a conversation with ur SO and things turned out well. congratulations! i will drop a message in that thread as well.. ok now i am getting ready for the heat for this post

[Nur]

I have never asked a guy out, and never plan to. My philosophy is that, if they are interested, they better have the guts to come to me.

 

I have never turned a guy down for a date, either. Even if I don't see that an initial attraction is there, I figure they deserve a shot. If, of course, after a couple dates nothing is happening, it's pretty easy to move into the "friends" department.

 

My first serious relationship started along the same lines. One of my closest guy friends finally admitted to me that he'd liked me for three years. I figured, "Might as well give it a shot" and ended up dating him. We really hit it off and now we're extremely close and see no end in sight to our relationship.

 

The only guys I consider worth it are the more old-fashioned type. I'm kind of uncommon among girls in that regard, but then again the old-fashioned "gentlemanly" guys are kind of uncommon among guys. And yet I find that the quality ones make themselves apparent regardless.

 

I'm not really about "getting some" or "chasing a guy." The emotional connection needs to be there first (hence the friendship) and sometimes it blooms into something more. If not, you have a lot of good friends!

[Walk]

No clobber:

looks like u r all fired up walk! u r right in saying that men r visual creatures. thats the way we r.. we get turned on by beauty, we r wired to respond that way.

 

I didn't mean for it to sound like I was mad. Mostly trying to be funny, and kind of sarcastic.

 

I personally think we've gotta learn to play the game to the best of our abilities in order to have as many oportunities as possible to find the person we're going to be most suited for. If having a gorgeous model is your idea of the perfect woman, then understand you have to have the power and money. If you want a powerful, rich man, then bust ass to be that gorgeous model.

 

If you just want a decent guy who is capable of supporting himself, then at least make enough effort to attract him. And vice versa, if you want a woman who you're not going to want to use a paper bag with, then get a job that pays more then minimum wage.

 

When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be disappointed to discover they are not it.

- Bernard Bailey

[MarcoInaros]

The only guys I consider worth it are the more old-fashioned type. I'm kind of uncommon among girls in that regard, but then again the old-fashioned "gentlemanly" guys are kind of uncommon among guys. And yet I find that the quality ones make themselves apparent regardless.

QUOTE]

 

What do you mean by "the old fashioned type"?

[MarcoInaros]

Maybe take a page out of Art's book. Work your ass off and become a professional success. This will make you more appealing to many women because a) some women find professional success attractive and b) you won't seem desperate to women because you hardly will have time for them. Eventually someone will approach.

 

Yes that is an area that I need to improve upon. Right now I am working in a low wage retail job and I live with my parents. I know that self esteem should not be dependent upon your work but still...its embarassing to tell a girl about my situation. My career is still up in the air. Girls want a guy who has his sh*t together right, in terms of a career?

 

Today wasn't bad. At work I chatted with a girl who was born in France and I helped her out. Then as she was leaving I yelled out "au revior!" and she said "caio!"

 

And then at the gym, I chatted with a girl who I see there often, and she was very nice (and pretty).

 

The hard part for me always is taking the next step, whether I should or not. Asking for the number...today I didn't feel like it...but I usually don't because I am afraid that I will make things awkward if she rejects me.

[gigi79]

so in response to your statement girls never make a move, this guy hit on me gave me his card and i gave him my #. couple days go by so i figure i'll send him an email he writes back we eventually go out. he calls the next day to say he had a good time, however i think he walked out on me. i'm not too sure, we had some drinks then i had gone to the bathroom and he might have too i don't know i came back and he was gone so i left. then the next day he calls.... So i think well i'll give him the benefit of the doubt i call him he nevers calls back- so really why should a girl make a move untill she's sure. When i girl makes a move she really likes the guy i'm not so sure a guy makes a move b/c he really likes the girl.