cheerfulstoic Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 Fate recently handed me the opportunity to directly compare the daily routine of me and my wife for the amount of effort involved. I do not like what I have found out. I need advice. It begins with me losing my job five weeks ago. My wife started work the next day. I am now Mr Mom, by which I mean I take my two daughters to/from school, get their homework done, feed them & tidy up, a lot of which I did before anyway. I have been trying to get my wife to take up the same chores I did when I was working. This she does not want to do. Which leads to fights. Some background here: I do more domestic stuff than the average male, and got into that habit following my wife having post natal depression after the birth of our kids 6 & 8 years ago. Since that time I have taken much of the responsibility for getting things done, everything from nappy changing to minding the kids at weekends while she rests to booking holidays. Maybe some of you - especially the gals! - will be thinking "yeah sure" to which I can say, that's just the way it's been. I take the kids out at weekends by myself while she chills out. Most evenings my wife watches TV or goes out to her writer's groups (she's a would-be writer) or goes to bed early. More on that later. One year ago, feeling the pressure of paying for private education for the kids and our joint goal of a better house, I asked her to back to work a little. This she agreed to do for 3-4 months a year, although she made it very clear she would rather be writing. So she arranged for a short job which by coincidence started just as mine ended. That's how the opportunity for a direct comparison of roles came about. The problem is that my new role is easy! I love being with the kids. The cleaner comes in as before, and I find that there is little to do other than the chores I always did. It seems to me, my spouse has been taking it real easy for years. And this I find I resent. I kind of assumed there was some sort of social contract at work about equality of work, or at least equality of effort. I now believe she has been coasting for years and the social contract was "let him knock himself out - I like the easy life!". Damn! I was used as a kind of utility of convenience, a sort of earning+ cleaning+ DIY machine, with benefits of emotional support & sex (though not a great deal of that, to be honest). So my wife resists being asked to do what I did. And I, madly resentful, want her to find out what it feels like, and am insisting. Now, it's not like there's some "He hunts mammoth, she minds the cave" deal being broken here. We're both professionals and can earn comparable amounts. I'm pretty much a SNAG as the aussies say ("sensitive new-age guy") and my wife is a leftie feminist. I work on contract so losing my job wasn't a big shock. Her new job is fewer hours than my old one. I have to be fair and say that my wife has been on a low dose of anti-depressants for years, to deal with the post-natal depression and also with PMS. So I can take it that she has a bit less to give than me. But, man, she did next to nothing and I'm pissed off. How do you work it out between yourselves? I'm out of ideas.
slubberdegullion Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 I don't have kids and I live by myself, but I gotta tell ya that I'm in agreement. Most household chores are a breeze, at least to me; I just turn on the tunes and scurry through the place mopping the floors, vacuuming, cleaning out the tub/toilet/all the rest. It's pretty much completed in an hour. Now, undoubtedly it would be different if I had a cluster of wee ones underfoot, but when I'm not working (I do contract work as well, so I can relate to your situation, cheerfulstoic) I have to go out of my way to find things to do.
Hot Coco Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 This issue has come up in our marriage also. Only difference is we don't have a "cleaner" to come in. I do ALL the household chores, cooking, laundry, homework, school stuff, everything. The way I see it right now with your situation, your irked at a situation that no longer exists. The dynamic is different now. But you want to "punish" her in a way and make her do what you were doing when she was working. I think it's destructive. You have the time and inclination (it sounds like) to do everything at home. So do it and let her work. I once told my H that I will do one or the other. That is, household/child tasks OR work full-time. I will not do both. When I was working full-time and he was also working full-time, he did almost all the chores. I did still do most of the cooking/shopping and we traded off days for child's homework and bath, etc. The fact of the matter is that different people have different energy levels. I could not work full-time, do my other chores that I've just mentioned AND clean a damn house. He wouldn't agree to a maid so he did all the cleaning. You both have to come to some agreement. Maybe she can trade off with you on the children's duties? I don't know but I do know that it serves no purpose to be resentful of what has already taken place. Sounds like there's more to this than just chores. If it's sex/emotional support that is REALLY the issue, you should sit down with her. Write out what you need/want from her and have her do the same. We did that and it worked out well. We looked at our lists and compromised. Each gave each other some of what we wanted. No one gets it ALL, afterall. Hope this helps. I think this is a common issue with couples. But try to move forward. Looking back at what WAS is destructive, not productive.
littlekitty Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 WHOAH. Down off those high horses please gentlemen!! One point I would like to make, which you fail to mention, is standards. IMHO and experience, men do not have the same standards of cleanliness, or hygine that women have. I’m not making blanket assumptions, or saying ‘all men are pigs’. I’m being honest about what one sex sees as clean against the other. Men only tend to see surface mess and dirt. Women are aware of the ground in dirt, the things that need cleaning on a daily, weekly, monthly, annual basis. I bet your wives have ideas/schedules of when to disinfect this, clean out the fridge, defrost the freezer, wash all the curtains etc. etc. Do you dust the skirting board, clean the toilet properly, clean the oven, grill etc.…? My bet is that you aren’t actually as of yet doing anything like 60% of what your wife is doing.
Hot Coco Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 WHOAH. Down off those high horses please gentlemen!! One point I would like to make, which you fail to mention, is standards. IMHO and experience, men do not have the same standards of cleanliness, or hygine that women have. I’m not making blanket assumptions, or saying ‘all men are pigs’. I’m being honest about what one sex sees as clean against the other. Men only tend to see surface mess and dirt. Women are aware of the ground in dirt, the things that need cleaning on a daily, weekly, monthly, annual basis. I bet your wives have ideas/schedules of when to disinfect this, clean out the fridge, defrost the freezer, wash all the curtains etc. etc. Do you dust the skirting board, clean the toilet properly, clean the oven, grill etc.…? My bet is that you aren’t actually as of yet doing anything like 60% of what your wife is doing. Excellent point Kitty! I was going to bring that up too because when we'd argue about this (H and I) I told him that his idea of cleaning and mine were different. His idea of cooking is to open up a few cans or microwave something. Mine is quite different indeed. My food shopping and planning takes 3 times the time and effort as he would put in when he did it. So I've got to say VERY good points...I have no idea if they apply to Mr. Mom but they just might.
slubberdegullion Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 WHOAH. Down off those high horses please gentlemen!! But the view is really nice from up here!
933KJL Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 Sounds like they have been "outted" and are struggling to control this issue with spin. Oh but my cooking is more complicated, my shopping takes much more planning.
littlekitty Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 But the view is really nice from up here! Yeah, but I keep getting sh*t on down here...!!
littlekitty Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 Excellent point Kitty! I was going to bring that up too because when we'd argue about this (H and I) I told him that his idea of cleaning and mine were different. His idea of cooking is to open up a few cans or microwave something. Mine is quite different indeed. My food shopping and planning takes 3 times the time and effort as he would put in when he did it. So I've got to say VERY good points...I have no idea if they apply to Mr. Mom but they just might. Why thank you! *bows* Actually I'm relieved someone agrees with me! I think women do the job very differently from men!
Mz. Pixie Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 Your arrogance astounds me. Child rearing is MUCH easier when children are 6 and 8 and in school all day! It's very easy to get stuff done when you take them to school and then have all day to do what needs to be done. When they were 1 and 3 I guarantee you that things were not as easy as they are now. Your wife was responsible for shaping those little minds in their early years! It's alot of responsibility. When kids are 1 and 3 then you have to basically do almost everything for them. When they are 6 and 8 they can dress themselves and do light chores. I tell you what- you take on two kids from either birth to three years of age to babysit full time and then let's see how smug you are about what you can get done around the house then!
933KJL Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 See I told you it was getting nasty! In his defense he said that he was VERY proactive in the rearing--changing nappies and so forth. Seems to me like his wife was suffering from PPD and it has either never gone away, or she was milking it.
littlekitty Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 See I told you it was getting nasty! In his defense he said that he was VERY proactive in the rearing--changing nappies and so forth. Seems to me like his wife was suffering from PPD and it has either never gone away, or she was milking it. Maybe some do... I'm sure to god some are...! Not all women have my standards!! However, just like I'm trying not to do here.. don't tar us all with the same paint and make out like it's some easy peasy day rearing 2 children and keeping house. Oh and Mz. Pixie... brilliant.. thanks for bringing that side of the arguement into play! How right you are!!
Hot Coco Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 Jk, stop trying to start a fight on here. You don't really want a bunch of desperate housewives after you, now do you?' Go start up your Doggie Love thread again. My oh my...look at the time! Got go start cleaning!
933KJL Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 You don't really want a bunch of desperate housewives after you, now do you?' Hmmmm now THATS a thought!
scratch Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 Your arrogance astounds me. Child rearing is MUCH easier when children are 6 and 8 and in school all day! It's very easy to get stuff done when you take them to school and then have all day to do what needs to be done. When they were 1 and 3 I guarantee you that things were not as easy as they are now. Your wife was responsible for shaping those little minds in their early years! It's alot of responsibility. When kids are 1 and 3 then you have to basically do almost everything for them. When they are 6 and 8 they can dress themselves and do light chores. I tell you what- you take on two kids from either birth to three years of age to babysit full time and then let's see how smug you are about what you can get done around the house then! I happen to agree with the point that it is more difficult to raise younger children. However, it seems your position is that the person primarily responsible for attending to the children before they are of school age is entitled to some sort of "rest period" thereafter. Assuming for the sake of argument (although it's probably a poor assumption) that he didn't do a greater share of things around the house when the children were very young, does that mean that the parental, professional and household heavy lifting she did during the period of their infancies is all she has to do for her whole life? To the OP, I recommend you seek points of compromise rather than points of contention. If you like the way things are now, focus on that rather than resenting that you may have not have had as fair an arrangement in the past.
Walk Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 Just a point on the side of women: My bf made a point yesterday about how it only took him 7 minutes to clean the kitchen. There was caked on food covering the inside of the microwave still, the floor hadn't been swept, and the food mashed into the vinyl was still working on staining it. The food that had dripped down the side of the stove was still there... on and on... It took me about half an hour. Not a big deal to me. But I resented the fact that he said it was such a breeze, when he really hadn't cleaned the kitchen. Just did a couple of dishes and took the trash out. I also wanted to point out, as a writer; we take our work seriously. You do know it takes a year to write a novel, right? Professional writers will spend 8 hours a day, 7 day's a week working on a book. It'll take me 3 day's to write 4 pages of good writing. Not to mention the time it takes to research information. And after hours and weeks and months, spent crafting this story or novel, it's demeaning to have your SO tell you you were just wasting time doing nothing. Way to be supportive!!!
slubberdegullion Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 Yeah, but I keep getting sh*t on down here...!! Uh... didja ever consider the possibility of going to the other side of the horse?
littlekitty Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 Uh... didja ever consider the possibility of going to the other side of the horse? DOH! Wrong fricking end again....!!!
Hot Coco Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 Hmmmm now THATS a thought! Walked right into that one didn't I?
Hot Coco Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 I happen to agree with the point that it is more difficult to raise younger children. However, it seems your position is that the person primarily responsible for attending to the children before they are of school age is entitled to some sort of "rest period" thereafter. Assuming for the sake of argument (although it's probably a poor assumption) that he didn't do a greater share of things around the house when the children were very young, does that mean that the parental, professional and household heavy lifting she did during the period of their infancies is all she has to do for her whole life? To the OP, I recommend you seek points of compromise rather than points of contention. If you like the way things are now, focus on that rather than resenting that you may have not have had as fair an arrangement in the past. That's what I was saying too. Find a compromise NOW. Forget about what it was in the past. I love my H dearly but that is one of his most annoying traits. He loves to bring up things from the past that have NO bearing on the present. That was then this is now. You're not being productive by whining (YES, men whine too!) about what WAS. And just curious, why have a maid if your "Mr. Mom." Did SHE have a maid when she was home?
IhavenoFREAKINclue Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 OK. Call me old fashioned, but that's the way it should be. Meaning that she's the one who brings home the money, less work is aked of her. Since you have no job, the roles are reversed. I believe in my man working and me doing all the homey stuff. Not to give men right but that is our job as "housewives" But since your the housewife, this is what you should be doing. Granted she should do some of it, but your new job is taking care of the kids and cleaning this and that. I work 2 jobs and my fiance is happy to do the cleaning and laundry whille I'm working all day. I'm so tired when I get home from work that I haven't done the dishes in 3 weeks (me personally) You may to say "Well, the least you can do is (fill in the blank). Tell her that she needs to get her ass out of bed and either write a freakin book already or shut up and help you.
quankanne Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 It seems to me, my spouse has been taking it real easy for years. And this I find I resent. I kind of assumed there was some sort of social contract at work about equality of work, or at least equality of effort. I now believe she has been coasting for years and the social contract was "let him knock himself out - I like the easy life!". Damn! I was used as a kind of utility of convenience, a sort of earning+ cleaning+ DIY machine, with benefits of emotional support & sex (though not a great deal of that, to be honest). it's easy to let resentment breed, especially when you're capable of getting the job done and it seems the other person just slacks off. But you need to think of it in terms of trade-offs, and that every couple that builds a life together has them. A spouse can be stronger in some areas than others, and that is when you look to complement each other. I hate scrubbing toilets, vacuuming and mopping. However, my husband has the patience to do these things, and he does them well. There are things he hates to do that I don't mind, so we've worked out a system where we work on our strengths and compromise on the stuff we both hate doing. It sounds like you and your wife haven't yet gotten to that point. depression may very well play into her lack of desire to be a homemaker, but then again, she may have a misunderstanding that because you're good at it, you WANT to do the whole housekeeper bit. What I'd suggest is that you write down a list of things to be done and ask her where she would be able to contribute. That way you both know where you stand, you both get some satisfaction that each is contributing to the upkeep of the house and raising the children.
HokeyReligions Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 This has been a bone of contention in my marriage as well. In our case my standards of clean are far different from hubby's. His idea of clean was my idea of straightening up before the real cleaning commences. Just this week (we got new floors) hubby has opened his eyes and actually seen the dirt! He asked me how I cleaned the TV screen for one thing which tells me he finally noticed that it was dirty and remembered that it isn't always that way. When he would dust (at my urging) he went around things and didn't lift anything up or dust the things on the shelves (the tops of all the DVDs were filthy and there was a fine ring of dust at their base - but the shelves in front were dusted. That kind of thing. That being said, there are some people who will 'milk' it and claim its a much bigger job than it is; and there are some for whom it IS a bigger job. After years of doing cleaning it gets tiresome and depressing. It's a never-ending cycle. Most jobs outside the house have some sense of completion or accomplishment that once done its done, even routine things like monthly or weekly reports - they are a bit different and there is a sense of completion. Housework is never-ending. There may be a time of accomplishment when its done that the house looks nice, but its going to be the same routine the next day, etc. After years of doing this it can become depressing and the motivation to do it lessens over time. If your wife is already suffering from depression this makes it worse and even more difficult to be motivated. People who have normal bouts of depression - over an event or situation, but come out of it themselves or are able to snap themselves out of it don't understand the difference between the disease of depression and normally being depressed about something and believe me, there is a BIG difference. It's also quite normal to resent someone in this situation. Who wouldn't? If I do a job that is relatively simple and emotionally has no impact I could easily wonder why someone else would find it so difficult and emotionally taxing. What I have to remember is that the other person is not me and they are not going to approach the same situation in the same way or have the same feelings about it. I don't mind doing laundry - it's not a big deal to me. For my husband it leaves him in a foul mood. The chore is the same, but the impact on each of us is drastically different. If your wife is on anti-depressents is she also seeing a doctor or therapist to help her and to monitor her? That's part of the healing process for the disease of depression and the doctor or therapist will address her specific needs while the medicine treats the physical aspect. That may help both of you to understand and work with the limitations of the disease.
RecordProducer Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 I don't want to take anyone's side in this story, I will just remind you of these facts: 1. Some people are lazier than others. 2. People like different things. I am amazed at what some people are able to do in one day. They have the energy, time, and will for much more than I can find during a week. On the other hand, I am disgusted by people who are so lazy that they want to be idle, passive, and do nothing. I hate all house chores except cooking. Some people don't hate them and some women hate to cook. So we differ in this department. Some women enjoy being stay-at-home moms, some find it frustrating. What's a breeze for you is not a breeze for your wife. The hardest part for me at work was sitting in the office for 8 hours. I loved it when I had to go out and run some errands. My co-workers hated going out, they were so thankful to me for doing "their" job and I saw it as a getaway from the boring office. Your wife is the intellectual type who likes to be alone with her thoughts or communicate with interesting people, being that she is a writer. The mindless chores and children's 24/7 company frustrates her. She needs intellectual challenge, but she also needs space and peace (hence the image of her being lazy). After all, you've only been doing this for 5 weeks. Try 5 years. IMHO, you should agree on how to share the obligations and responsibilities from now on, but don't resent her for not enjoying what you enjoy. Just like you can't resent her for enjoying tennis if you don't or vice versa. You might actually discover that she resents you for enjoying such brainless duties like doing the dishes or cleaning while she maintains political discussions with her collegues.
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