Some suggestions for a slow moving relationship

[dragonwalker]

For those of you maybe interested I wanted to continue my story since I last posted. We met 3 times since posting again about once a week. Next date pretty usual dinner, talking and we kissed for a little while in the car. The next date we had a very nice dinner where our mother's met each other for the first time. The dinner went went well and afterwards my mom continued to affirm she like the women I was seeing and also her mother. 

Now, this last date which I just finished is the one I decided to take some chances on things I have brought up a few times in my post. It was a late night dinner and we went somewhere simple, Another week had passed since we last spoke and as usual we started out with some good conversation. I took the plunge and eased into a conversation about being exclusive with each other which she agreed that we should be and we decided to do that. Then, I decided to ask her about our level of intimacy and specifically how I had tried to set the stage on numerous occasions and felt rebuffed. She did not seem shy about her response and said at first she was the type to wait to be in a committed relationship. Since we had just established that I wanted to clarify what she understood as a committed relationship before we had sex. She clarified that this meant marriage. 

This was not the answer that I had expected. I listened to her, was respectful, and asked about her thoughts regarding this as neither of us are religious (which often is a reason precluding sex before marriage) and she said that based on the values she was raised on including her early childhood in a Catholic school, she had retained some of those beliefs and felt that it was worth upholding those ideas. I replied to that about how the sexual component to a relationship is routinely noted as an important element in many relationships to which she responded in her experience (implying more professionally speaking) that it was not the case and often an excuse to other underlying issues. Also that if two people deemed it important enough, they could wait. I asked her if any of her thinking had to do with any shyness she felt about sex. She said it was not. I also asked about whether she had desires but chose not to act on those desires due to her beliefs. She answered indirectly and affirmed she was attracted to me to which she asked if I was to her (she has asked this several times before). I replied I was and that is why on several occasions I had tried to go further physically in an effort to deepen that aspect of our relationship but felt she was hesitant.  

Anyway, there was a lot more filler in this conversation and probably took place over 30 minutes or so however I do think it came from a place of understanding from both of us and ultimately I replied that her decision to wait was not a deal breaker for me. 

I wanted to get other people's opinion on this since I feel it's very unusual as again she is not religious (neither of us even believe in god) and although she did say she wanted to wait till marriage she didn't seem entirely 100% firm as I felt I had to literally ask very clearly if she meant that "does this mean that you believe in no sex until marriage?" and I felt the conviction of her response was not particularly strong because she also cited physical risks which I immediately asked for clarification as almost all physical "risk" through sexual contact can be almost eliminated. Obviously being a Dr. she would know this best and she did not have any counter example. She did say she has always believed in sex after marriage. I did not ask if she was a virgin. I even asked her if she had loved anyone before romantically and she said she did not think so. Coincidentally neither of us believe in love at first site and believe it's more a function of lust and generally we are more practical about what constitutes love. She is well aware of today's hookup culture and the propensity for the overwhelming majority of people being in this category and she agreed that she didn't think I was treating our relationship that way but she confirmed her belief several times. I asked her again if it was her intention to have her own children one day and she said it was. I did not ask if no sex meant no other sexual contact   

Through our conversation I did not specifically say that I 've had sex before myself nor did she ask but I let it be known that I did not share her belief but that I would not exclude the possibility of doing that. I was being truthful when I said that but does anyone who has been following my ramblings think her response makes the two of us more or less compatible or better explain our actions,  or inform our decisions. Is anyone a women or knows a women who shares this belief who is not religious ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

Edited January 8, 2023 by dragonwalker

[Wiseman2]

If no sex before marriage is her policy or belief, there's no point trying to convince her or debating it. Either you are compatible on that topic or you're not. You may have to accept that this isn't the right woman or relationship for you.

[Calmandfocused]

DW you have the patience of a saint! 
 

This would be a compliment if it weren’t for the fact that you are completely disregarding your own relationship standards and values.
 

You’ve forgotten about you! You’re settling for a situation you’re unhappy with because you don’t have the confidence in yourself to find a woman who is more compatible with you. 
 

Something my mother taught me: “it’s better to be on your own than be with the wrong person”. 
 

 

 

[glows]

I find it quite strange she’s never brought this up openly and you both had to date and fish around for these answers like pulling water from a rock. The communication between the two of you feels strained or a little difficult.

I think what is disrespectful to both her and yourself is continuing to think her views are “unusual” or constantly questioning her reasoning. She basically told you her values and beliefs and you undercut that by asking if she was shy. There’s huge disconnect here and shows how different she is from you that you couldn’t accept what she was saying. You also mentioned not being able to gauge she was 100% sure which strikes me as odd - why wouldn’t you simply accept this woman’s choice and feel you have to distrust what she’s saying?

Another thing I’m noticing - she doesn’t seem open to sharing as much about herself which puts you in the position of needing to keep asking and the conversations appear awkward and cold. Almost clinical.

It gives me the sense that you like this person’s company for other reasons but don’t necessarily accept her as she is and the thing you’re missing from her is what you hoped to get through sex - to find some more indication or validation that she’s into you. Basically whatever it is now, is not enough for you. 

In a lot of ways I can see why she’s not as overly enthusiastic about dating you and I think you sense that and feel somewhat insecure. If you’re actually looking for this to work you both will have to be on the same page and more respect and acceptance of one another is needed. If you both can’t do that you’re not compatible.

Edited January 8, 2023 by glows

[Els]

8 hours ago, dragonwalker said:

Is anyone a women or knows a women who shares this belief who is not religious ?

As I mentioned, I know plenty of traditional, non-religious women in your culture who wait until marriage to have sex.

I'm not sure why you "didn't expect" her answer to be the way that it is. If you want to date very traditional women, then surely you can expect them to have "very traditional" values when it comes to sex? And traditionally, sex is something that women "give" to their husband. Most of us here don't agree with that, but none of our opinions matter. Only hers matters, and clearly she conforms to the traditional standard in that regard.

If you want to date a woman who wants to have sex before marriage, then you should break up with her and seek to date women who are less traditional. You live in a Western country. There are plenty of modern women where you live.

Please do NOT keep trying to invalidate her perspective on this. She has made her choice, and she deserves someone who will respect it. You need to make your choice now.

[dragonwalker]

I have told her and I believe that sex after marriage is not a "deal breaker." In regards to my own standards I didn't previously have  a standard about sex and if it happened before or after marriage so I do not see accepting her belief as violating any standard of mine. Please recall that in many aspects of my life I go into the analytical and clearly its happening here so when I say that her belief is unusual, I am talking about the statistics about the normal standard in the current US population. I am not casting criticism upon her beliefs. I asked questions to understand her decision because I did not understand. For instance, one aspect that I am unusual is that I do not believe in god when the overwhelming majority of Americans and in fact the world, do. Certainly, I would say 

@glowsAgain, my sense that her conviction may have been less than 100% was due to the fact that she qualified her answer with a reason that has a questionable basis, ones physical well being having sex. She did not disagree. Without my posts expanding exponentially in length I can see how when I describe our responses to each other it may seem cold because believe it or not I'm trying to stick to the pertinent details as much as possible but I do feel our interactions are pretty warm and friendly, including this one. I genuinely don't understand how up to this point I may have been disrespectful. Is it because of the questions I am asking to understand her view? I did not ask at any point for her to change her view and I expressed to her my genuine surprise of her view and was honest about how I felt. 

@Elswyth I did something I never did before and I shared all of the details of my most recent interaction with my mother to get her perspective as a mother, women, and someone who has the same cultural background. She confirmed what I somewhat already knew that the sex after marriage was not unusual in a past generation but that the overwhelming majority of people from our culture of my generation that this was very unusual. In retrospect based on the probability that a much larger proportion of women have more "liberal" ideas about sex that is why I was surprised. What am I saying that sounds like I am invalidating her perspective?  

[glows]

This has nothing to do with religion yet you have inserted it into the topic of sex. People have views and beliefs outside of religion, also nothing to do with statistics or any notions of what is more probable. I don’t quite see why it’s so important to emphasize any of this. The key is listening to what she’s saying about herself instead of comparing it to what the rest of the world is doing. I wonder what she would think if you read this thread to her or she saw everything you have said about her here? If it’s not a dealbreaker for you then why consult forum of strangers if you are more or less compatible? I suggest you date her instead of comparing her to what others are doing.

We date to find compatibility. If this isn’t an issue for you then carry on.

[Els]

20 hours ago, dragonwalker said:

She confirmed what I somewhat already knew that the sex after marriage was not unusual in a past generation but that the overwhelming majority of people from our culture of my generation that this was very unusual.

I wouldn't say it's "very unusual" to wait, but certainly there are lots of people in your culture who have sex before marriage. And the reason is that people are modernizing, and therefore current generations are less likely to be traditional. However, if you explicitly select for traditionalism in a partner, then obviously there is a higher chance of them being traditional in all aspects of life. You can't really pick and choose the aspects of tradition that suits you... or rather, you could, but you'd have much more difficulty in finding a compatible partner.

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In retrospect based on the probability that a much larger proportion of women have more "liberal" ideas about sex that is why I was surprised

 Indeed, the majority of women in their 30s in developed countries in 2023 are not traditional. However, you are not dating these women, you are dating her.

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What am I saying that sounds like I am invalidating her perspective?  

In this post alone, you said "she qualified her answer with a reason that has a questionable basis", for instance. It doesn't matter how "questionable" you think her reasons are, the point is that she does not want to have sex with you before marriage. She does not need a reason to decide what she wants to do with her body - it's her choice and hers alone.

If you are genuinely okay with no sex before marriage, then what is this thread really about?

Edited January 9, 2023 by Elswyth

[smackie9]

What if she doesn't like sex all that much after marriage...what then? What if she is a cold fish, boring, mechanical, etc. What then? IMO if you don't feel passion for each other by now, this is dead in the water already. She's won't allow sexual escalation. THAT would be a deal breaker would it not? 

[CaliforniaGirl]

On 1/10/2023 at 12:26 PM, smackie9 said:

What if she doesn't like sex all that much after marriage...what then? What if she is a cold fish, boring, mechanical, etc. What then? IMO if you don't feel passion for each other by now, this is dead in the water already. She's won't allow sexual escalation. THAT would be a deal breaker would it not? 

This was my thought too. I mean...I get that culturally some people may decide not to have sex before marriage. But culture or not, the OP is obviously not thrilled with the situation, or he wouldn't be posting about it asking for advice on how to handle it. He'd just handle it by, well, not having sex. He wouldn't need to ask anybody about it. KWIM?

Dragonwalker: you could find yourself married and having to beg, plead and pursue and getting resentful if you two are sexually on different pages. But then you're married...and divorces can be expensive and you can lose things you don't want to lose (in addition to the actual person, I mean). Again: I wouldn't say this if it weren't on some level a problem for you. And if you're posting asking for advice, then even though you say you're willing to wait, it must be bothering you on some level as it is. 

I would really, really think about whether you two are compatible if I were in your position.

 

[ZA Dater]

Quite an unfortunate situation. Either you accept who she is or you don't. If there is enough about her you find really attractive in a relationship sense then carry on but if a lack of sex overrides all those good things then it's best to just move on.

You can change people but not fundamentally.

[JTSW]

Something tells me that even after marriage it wont be easy getting her to be intimate.

I don't buy her beliefs sorry.

To me it just seems like she's making excuses.

She doesn't want to be intimate with you.

Her way of dressing could be a way to put you off.

From everything I read it seems like the only thing she really wants is companionship. 

[dragonwalker]

Ok everyone it seems like the no sex before marriage thing has gotten a bit blown out of proportion. Yes I was surprised but I am actually open to the idea. I think one of the reasons that I had brought it up with her is I'm feeling some hesitancy on her end to get closer. This may have something to do with me but all indications by her are that she doesn't find anything I do not compatible. 

Another thought I had that ties into the intimacy issue is this. I've been seeing her since the end of July and even though I've been to her home multiple times I've just more or less been in the dining/kitchen area and not really seen her room or the areas of the home that are personal and I thought having her being open to showing me would just be a simple gesture of openness. I've joked about it as well and she's offered various explanations. 

I've invited her to come to my place on multiple occasions and after I gave her my address upon her request she doesn't really seem to be open to it primarily by giving various reasons being busy, doesn't drive freeways, it's raining, it's far, etc. I have even kind of offered to pick her up, bring her here and obviously back (about 2 hours round trip) but she's said stuff about not wanting me to spend that much time doing it. 

Now oddly just recently we've chatted and facetimed on the phone where we did share with each other over camera our rooms and in her case her bedrooms. She even voluntarily showed me some personal items of her but she was initially hesitant about her own room when I made a joke about seeing it but she showed me nonetheless. There didn't seem to be anything I could obviously say why she wouldn't want to show me. 

Is it just me or is this a bit strange? I know she has the personality where I don't think on her own she would ask to see or come over to my place, one of those traits where people think they are always imposing but it's been nearly 6 months. 

Someone said something a few posts ago about perhaps she is just looking for companionship but doesn't know it? Or is this another situation people think I'm being critical and insensitive? 

[Calmandfocused]

DW, are you having any intimacy with her at all? Are you kissing, holding hands, hugging etc? 
 

If not, I’m sorry to tell you that what you have here is a friendship. 
 

All friendships have boundaries and privacy settings to some degree. 
 

I’m still in the camp that this situation is not right for you. Im sorry. 

[Wiseman2]

2 hours ago, dragonwalker said:

   Or is this another situation people think I'm being critical and insensitive? 

Unfortunately not being on the same page as far as the pace of intimacy, openness and affection IS incompatibilities, even if you seem to get along well. You're in a tug-of-war. You keep trying to break down barriers and she keeps resisting. Hopefully that isn't what is driving you.

[Gaeta]

After 6 months both of you aren't in love. Your dating feels mechanical, there is no passion on either side. This relationship did not escalate beyond 1 date a week. It says it all.

Don't expect her to turn into a passionnate, affectionnate wife. What you see is what you get. She managed to make it to 34 with no sex, to me that indicates a very low libido. No matter our beleif we are first humans programmed to reproduce and that instinct is usually stronger than anything else that's why they married very very quickly in the old days.

Like they say, be careful of what you wish for. I'm not seeing this woman as ever becoming loving and affectionate.

[glows]

No, I don’t think you’re compatible. You clearly need more than what you’re getting here and she’s declined or opted not to go over to your place. Inviting her shows you’re interested in knowing her beyond your usual dates. It also shows you trusting and opening your home up to someone you’ve just met 6 months ago. It doesn’t necessarily mean sleeping with someone or having sex either but she’s not comfortable with it.

What were her reasons for not showing you other parts of her house? Why are those reasons not valid to you? For some, it’s very weird to be taking someone you have no official relationship ties to such as husband, mother, sister etc to one’s bedroom  to chat or “hang out” as some call it and out of the question showing someone those parts of a house. I don’t find this strange at all. However it seems that way to you and you’re a bit fixated with how strange she seems.

You seem curious but not as open minded as one would think when dating someone who may be of a different background, outlook etc. She does seem sincere to you and she is communicating with you but she’s also not fulfilling your needs in a relationship (incompatible).

Edited January 14, 2023 by glows

[dragonwalker]

@Calmandfocused Yes for the past 1-2 months we do hold hands when we're out, hug, and kiss. I did have the talk with her last time we met about being exclusive so beyond any shadow of a doubt we are not just friends. 

@GaetaI have to say that my normal state is someone that is not very "passionate." It's my nature to say and do things in measured steps. Even in my younger day back in high school when I felt in love with this girl, from someone seeing me they'd probably hardly be able to tell as I was super consciousness about suppressing those outward appearances. It's a long story but it was a friend that I developed feelings for but I know in the end it would not have worked out.

@glowsthat's exactly how I view the invitation to one's place just as another way to introduce more about a person. I wonder if the fact in her mind now that I've "seen" her room via facetime if that does it for her. Interestingly I did kind of bring it up in the call in a joking way but she not only showed her room but some other personal items as well. When I went to her home the first time I let her guide what she wanted to show me and it was a meal, then we went out. Second time I brought a board game over, again I didn't ask but she didn't invite anywhere else except the dining room. A few times after that I picked her up, mentioned after a date about going up, she said it was late, it kind of was. A few other times she said it was disorganized. I get what you are saying and I have to do some serious thinking.   

[Weezy1973]

@dragonwalker I actually think given your relationship history and what you’ve shared, the two of you are quite compatible. It seems to me to be a relationship consistent with two somewhat inexperienced people, trying to navigate traditional culture with modern culture and doing the best they can. If I recall correctly you have limited sexual experience as well? 
 

Sexual compatibility might be an issue. I couldn’t be with a woman who viewed sex as something to give to me, rather than being in it for her own pleasure and enjoyment as well. But that’s me. To me that could be a challenge as she’ll likely never initiate. You’ll be the one pushing for it. It’s likely why she’s not wanting to go to your house, in case you try to escalate. I think in the now, she’s going to need to trust you’re truly okay with not having sex before marriage and won’t pressure her to do it. I dated a religious woman for awhile and she too didn’t want sex before marriage and she trusted me. We did quite a bit is “stuff” physically without ever having intercourse, and I really had no desire to do it as I knew she was against it. I asked her about what was okay and wasn’t and she didn’t really know as she had very little experience. She let me know a few things that were definite “no”s but other than that she basically said just do whatever and she’ll stop me if she’s uncomfortable l. Which I think happened two times, and it was fine. Open communication (which I think you’re having), trust and honesty are all good things. 

[dragonwalker]

@Weezy1973Yes, that's a good way of putting it in that we are inexperienced and trying to navigate through. Although I do not know for sure her level of actual sexual experience I believe it is quite low, possibly non existent. As for myself, I have had a number of sexual experiences but I don't view myself as experienced. 

I'd also hate to think she would think of sex as something to be given. That's why I have been trying to figure out if we can be compatible on that level. The more I think about it, I'm thinking the actual sex is of less importance but the fact I feel there is less intimacy gets me thinking long term how she will choose to express her feelings sexually. 

As I've said before I feel she is a great person that I'd like to have a future and I think ironically both of us have some similar relationship quirks that manifest slightly differently but neither of us are at the cutting edge of dating trends or other social norms. It's in this way, I think I've met someone unusually compatible (I know many of you may not think so but at this point I've seen her and know her better than anyone else I've seen in in my life) and I feel I need to do everything I can to ensure that I've done everything before "giving up."  

Edited January 15, 2023 by dragonwalker

[Weezy1973]

12 minutes ago, dragonwalker said:

 I feel I need to do everything I can to ensure that I've done everything before "giving up."  

Yes, I think this is a good plan. Keep in mind nobody is specifically designed for us so she’s not going to be a perfect match for you, but you do have to figure out what’s a dealbreaker. Also I’d say generally marriage isn’t necessarily forever, but kids are. So if you do decide to marry her, make sure you hold off on having kids until you get a feel of your compatibility sexually. Obviously ideally you’d be able to figure that out prior to marriage, but I don’t think it’s really possible given the circumstances. 

[Els]

May I remind you of your recent posts about your girlfriend:

On 12/18/2022 at 6:53 AM, dragonwalker said:

my point is I'm not going to be gushing about how attractive I feel toward her when in fact I've never felt a huge amount of physical attraction to the women that have chosen to date me. I think because I am not myself extremely attractive and less desirable in a social context. Therefore the practical side of me tells me that if I can find someone attractive enough, then I should be satisfied with that because the probability of finding an even better match all things considered are very low. Some might say that this is because of low confidence or settling but the truth is the level of effort I've put in and who I can find will like yield certain people and as time passes it will be harder when I do eventually start a family.

---

I do believe that some practical elements are of greater importance than you think when it comes to two people finding each other suitable for the long term such as ones own level of attractiveness compared to conventional standards, experience and other factors in one's life. When I say that I'm someone of very average or possibly below average appearance, with generally unsuccessful dating experiences, and relatively older (34) I'm not saying that the women I've met is not attractive. I am saying the evidence suggests that I will need to make certain compromises 

To answer your questions: Yes, there is a lack of intimacy in your relationship. Yes, she is probably just looking for a husband for companionship (or even just due to familial pressure) and she probably doesn't feel romantically attracted towards you. But it seems like you have acknowledged all of that already, and crucially, based on your posts it's likely that you feel the same way towards her.

So, is this something that you can accept or is it something that you cannot?

 

[Versacehottie]

I think in a lot of ways she is operating like a girl who is in high school and has such little experience that you almost have to approach the whole thing like you are at that position in life...at least as far as getting close goes. 

I think anything you do (and keep doing) to INCREASE the amount of contact, and frequency of, will move you toward the point where she might reconsider her position or you can get on the same page or a mutually agreeable page.  By amount of contact, I don't only mean physical, I mean EMOTIONAL as much.  You each need to be the biggest part of each other's lives emotionally and relied upon for this to progress.  I actually think her facetiming with you and showing you her bedroom etc was a step in the right direction.  Lol, much like high school, I think you should keep the lines of communication going and keep discussing the issue. I would try to take a less hard stance, but rather just keep the convo going. 

Like weezy I also think you guys seem well-suited for each other. The only parts I worry about is that like you said she feels it's something to be "given" and then as a full blown adult who has been dating you for a while now that she is not moving in a more sexual direction might be indicative of her overall interest in sex being low or non-existent so that it would be a problem in the long run or that you won't know until you marry her. I think you need to cross the threshold to know these answers. But you first have to get her comfortable crossing the threshold and wanting to do that.   I feel like the reluctance has to be because she is inexperienced and operating on some idealized values...maybe an appeal to the practical reasons of knowing?  Anyway, I think even if you appeal to the practical reasons for knowing...all that you do to build up the emotional connection is what will sway her decision IMO. Like being together as a couple in total, has to be an emotional choice rather than a practical one.

[Gaeta]

On 1/14/2023 at 12:22 PM, dragonwalker said:

@Calmandfocused 

@GaetaI have to say that my normal state is someone that is not very "passionate." It's my nature to say and do things in measured steps. Even in my younger day back in high school when I felt in love with this girl, from someone seeing me they'd probably hardly be able to tell as I was super consciousness about suppressing those outward appearances. It's a long story but it was a friend that I developed feelings for but I know in the end it would not have worked out.

@glows

Sorry glows & calmandfocused for quoting you. All l tried to delete your names and didn't work.

@dragonwalker: what are your feeelings for this woman? Are you in love with her?

Edited January 15, 2023 by Gaeta

[poppyfields]

On 1/10/2023 at 12:26 PM, smackie9 said:

What if she doesn't like sex all that much after marriage...what then? What if she is a cold fish, boring, mechanical, etc. What then? IMO if you don't feel passion for each other by now, this is dead in the water already. She's won't allow sexual escalation. THAT would be a deal breaker would it not? 

I tend to agree with @smackie9.

OP, have you ever seen the film "Splendor in the Grass"? 

It focuses on a young couple during the Great Depression where attitudes toward sex and sexuality were oppressed and women who engaged in sex prior to marriage were deemed immoral and unworthy. 

I understand people even today uphold strict standards regarding premarital sex, however that did not/does not negate their sexual desire, sexual attraction and sexual passion for their partners.

It was and still is extremely difficult to maintain these standards in a hearthy vibrant relationship where two people are sexually attracted and sexually desire each other.

I am sorry to say that no matter what her values are concerning premarital sex, she sounds sexually repressed, her clothing style reflects this as well..

Or she is simply NOT sexually attracted to you and feels zero passion for you.

Your relationship sounds like a glorified friendship tbh. 

Even if you were to marry her, there's nothing good here from what I can see.. 

Sex will be a chore, an obligation, versus a shared activity stemming from mutual sexual desire and passion. 

If this is good enough for you carry on. 

If not, wish her well and leave and find a woman more compatible with your needs and desires. 

Edited January 15, 2023 by poppyfields