Some suggestions for a slow moving relationship

[dragonwalker]

For those of you who want to read the full backstory please read my recent post. The summary is I am 34 male living in LA who has been dating a 34 women since the end of July this year. We met online on one of the big LTR sites, she reached out to me first. We've seen each other about once a week. We get along well and share a lot of common personality traits. We are both 1st generation American, born here with parents who immigrated. Our ultimate goal is to find someone to marry and have children. She is a doctor (MD) and works at a clinic. I work an office job.   

She is very socially conservative and in the months that I've seen her we've just held hands and made out twice. I definitely feel that's it has a lot to do with the person that she is. It's not tied to anything religious as we are both atheist. I have asked her more or less if she is attracted to me and in her own way she's said your "fine and nothing is wrong" but not any enthusiastic confirmation. Frankly, I don't think I'm a particularly attractive person anyway, very average at best and physically more or less normal. I feel on some level she has inhibitions which are unusual and I wonder about her sex drive.  

I also have social inhibitions but it doesn't come from a lack of desire but rather a fear of rejection/lack of confidence. In the time we've been together we've never brought sex up once I think for her because of her inhibitions and for me out of fear of causing an awkward situation and knowing with near certainty the subject would cause her unease. I have tried to slip the topic in but the response I get is silence and she changes the subject. Nothing vulgar but I got the strong sense she didn't want to discuss it.  

My dating experience is limited and unfortunately doesn't have much depth. My romantic performance with women is poor. In day to day interactions I feel neither of us are socially awkward on the surface as I feel we can handle typical social conversations well, on a variety topics, with at least a typical decent ability to communicate. Ironically, I was in retail sales for some time so in some instances I can communicate decently.

In the time we've been together I have almost nearly always traveled to her area and been to her home 3 times. However in the 3 times I've been there I've only been in the living room/dining area and not seen her room or anywhere else. She did not invite me to do so and I did not ask. I've gone to her area this many times because she doesn't drive on the freeway and she has poor eyesight at night. She has met my mother during Thanksgiving and I have met her mother. Her mother is very quiet and appears very socially conservative but seemed nice, only staying to greet for a few minutes and then left. My mother thinks she is very nice and likes her and thinks the limited show of affection is not a red flag.  

A few odd things I've noticed. I feel as if she doesn't really have any friends as she never talks about doing anything or going anywhere with friends. She has a somewhat large extended family but doesn't particularly seem to spend that much time with them either. Much of her time seems to be working and doing more work related stuff when she comes back home and "errands" on the weekend. She has almost never said she's been busy on a particular day on the weekend.

This might be coming from a place of pure vanity but I noticed she doesn't give personal compliments of any kind like the typical things you might hear if someone is wearing something new, has a haircut, or that someone looks nice. She is polite in that she will say please and thank you but ya. Admittedly I don't as much either outwardly for the reasons below but I do give compliments about the things she does, says, demonstrates.  

She is a kind and gentle person that is intelligent and well read and highly educated with a wonderful profession. She is not particularly beautiful but attractive enough for me. This is superficial but she has worn nearly the same style of very conservative loose fitting (unflattering/shapeless) clothing. Think shapeless monotone sweater, with very loose dark cloth pants, and sandals with socks. Nothing dirty, it is clean. It makes me wonder if she is trying to hide her body. When I see her and when I've hugged her she seems fairly slim and normal so nothing I can outwardly see is embarrassing. I wish she could just wear a pair of fitted jeans and a t-shirt so I can get a better look at who she is physically as a woman. I'm by no means a fashionista but I try to mix clothes when I see her with some eye to a bit of style but nothing unusual.   

I'm a practical person and since I would like to have a family one day some of the more superficial things like appearance and sex to a certain extent are not as important. I can imagine myself with someone like her in the long term.  However, I do have a sexual desire I'd like to explore with her but she seems unwilling. I think I'm a bit afraid/nice to ask or do as some men might. It's possible she is suppressing the outward expression of sexuality as much as I have but I believe her inhibition is more fundamental. What surprises me is the fact as a MD she is probably more regularly exposed to people's physical nature and sexuality far more than most but I can't tell at all when I speak to her.  

How can I at least address what I have in mind without freaking her out? I've thought of maybe asking indirectly like maybe asking about her room and then asking to see it and then making a move and seeing where it goes. The other part of me feels I shouldn't make a "move" and talk it out as directly as I can with her. I sometimes feel like we are like children dealing with this aspect of it while on paper we've got other adult things setup but somehow managed to badly neglect the personal side. I'm really trying to get through this with her. Some would say I should just give up but in my entire adult life she has been the women I have felt most connected to romantically.         

Edited December 17, 2022 by dragonwalker

[glows]

No, don’t ask her about her room. Take her out on dates and invite her over for dinner. How is she when you make out with her?

You mentioned you’d already tried bringing this up in conversation and she more or less ignored you or didn’t ask for clarification. She’s not interested in discussing this with you. Is this an exclusive relationship? Ie did you tell her you’d like to date her exclusively(not see anyone else)?

You had observed the same thing about her clothing etc in Sept in a previous thread. Some people don’t like jeans. I hate them. I think when we start nitpicking someone’s dress or a person doesn’t appear as attractive as you think she ought to be there’s a problem. Maybe this is your low confidence speaking here and you’re sexually frustrated not having had sex with this person. Why keep pursuing someone who seems unwilling to have a simple conversation with you and with whom you don’t feel comfortable around. This is what’s puzzling. Are you sure you’re not just enamoured by her title and her social status?

 

[Gaeta]

Glows beat me to it. I was coming on here to ask you if you would have stayed around this long if she was not a doctor. 

[smackie9]

How can you feel romantically connected when you haven't have much of any contact since meeting in July?

-She doesn't dress feminine

-she is socially conservative

-she's not sexual physically or mentally

-she basically has no life but work/career

-she shies away from any kind of personal conversation

-doesn't share feelings, or flirts

-no sex, minimal physical contact.

Dude just come out and say it to her. Be a man, and just go for it. If it doesn't workout, then you don't waste anymore of your time.

 

 

 

[Els]

11 hours ago, dragonwalker said:

What surprises me is the fact as a MD she is probably more regularly exposed to people's physical nature and sexuality far more than most but I can't tell at all when I speak to her. 

Why do you think this makes a difference? There are plenty of conservative MDs, especially those who have conservative/traditional parents. Having to attend to random dude #540 who showed up in the ER with a vegetable up his butt is unlikely to turn a conservative person into a sexually explorative person...

The crux of it is just that you two are not compatible, in quite a few important ways. You are also clearly not attracted to her, based on the way that you talk about her. I'm not sure what the point of further analyzing her is - this is just who she is, and it's not what you want.

Quote

Some would say I should just give up but in my entire adult life she has been the women I have felt most connected to romantically.        

In 34 years, the woman you have felt most connected to romantically is the one whom you've written a 1000-word post about her "failings" in a 6-month long relationship????

Maybe something does need to be analyzed - your relationships with women. Have you never fallen in love with a woman before? Do you meet women in your daily life?

Edited December 17, 2022 by Elswyth

[ZA Dater]

OP I speak sort of the guy version of the lady you are dating. Chances are she doesn't want to discuss those things as she feels uncomfortable, you need to make her feel comfortable.

If you are really into her the best thing I cam suggest is open communication. Be very soft and comforting in the way you do it. Always remember it can be very hard for someone to open up.

Most of all have a degree of patience.

 

[dragonwalker]

Ok, so addressing a few questions from people. I have tried to invite her over on 3 occasions. The first one she declined and this was months ago and where I found out she doesn't drive on the freeway and has poor night vision but I did clarify asking her directly if it had anything to do with feeling uncomfortable coming over. She admitted yes that was part of it but mostly the driving. Ok, so we did something else. The second time she instead offered for me to go to her home. Third time was kind of impromptu the day before for the next day but she said she had an important meeting on Monday.

I agree my focus then and now on her clothing probably has something to do with some sexual frustration in that not being with her sexually I'm perhaps manifesting frustration in what she wears? Not sure. As far as her social status, yes I admire that and I find it really interesting. It's likely I probably would have less patience if she had another profession however I don't think it would have that great an impact in part because of anyone I've ever dated she has at least shown the greatest amount of regular affection. What I mean by this is we do flirt a bit through text and tease each other in person which makes me happy and wanted. She has said things via text that clearly indicate she wants to be with me, see me, etc. She doesn't say it in person BUT I get that because I am like that. I feel as though we understand our communication style much more than I have in the past with other women. 

About my stated attraction to her. I am attracted to her now but let me be clear I view myself as a very practical person in that I do believe in reality people find others who generally have a level of attraction that are not to dissimilar. Exceptions exist of course and my point is I'm not going to be gushing about how attractive I feel toward her when in fact I've never felt a huge amount of physical attraction to the women that have chosen to date me. I think because I am not myself extremely attractive and less desirable in a social context. Therefore the practical side of me tells me that if I can find someone attractive enough, then I should be satisfied with that because the probability of finding an even better match all things considered are very low. Some might say that this is because of low confidence or settling but the truth is the level of effort I've put in and who I can find will like yield certain people and as time passes it will be harder when I do eventually start a family. I do appreciate that she has healthy habits, neither of us drink, eats modestly and I think in that regard I also respect that much more than someone who might just be naturally attractive.

To clarify, I have met up with her about once a week since July. It's not necessarily that she doesn't dress femininely (she wears pink sweaters and clothing for women), it's more not stylish or complementary. Yes she hasn't stated that she does that much outside work not because she's hyper focused on career but more because she's an introvert like myself (I can relate to that as often times a lot I just want to be alone but her case seems to be more intense) since I will do things with friends when I can. She does have personal conversations with me about her past, feelings, thoughts, and I think she's open when it comes to many things when it's not sexual. Interestingly, when we first held hands she initiated it (on the day I was planning to) and nowadays when we walk together we do hold hands. When we had our first kiss I think it was a pretty great moment because it happened in the car, spontaneously, when I brought her back at the same time and as I leaned in she did as well. It wasn't long maybe 3-4 seconds and we did it twice back to back. The other time was a bit more awkward as I was leaving her home. I've got to say I think these are the kinds of things that are difficult for both of us to do.

She did say in her childhood she was raised in a home where parents didn't say that they love you or show much affection or anything (this is not uncommon in the culture we are both from). Like myself she was a single child and I had similar experiences with my parents but my grandparents were more affectionate and later in life my mother recognized this and we are intentional as we can to hug. I know it may sound silly to some but growing up I never really heard or saw love or affection displayed in the traditional western sense. My father was not a pleasant person and I think in some ways I'm socially stunted and or damaged in this way. That's why I'm trying to recognize whether what I see and experience being the result of my own issues or maybe there is something more to it. I have sought professional help before and it wasn't that helpful.        

I write a lot because it's a way to lay out my thoughts and also I like to analyze things. I'm that kind of person not just in this but in many aspects of my life big and small I will think about it, write on it, ask questions, listen to feedback, hear perspectives, research especially in an area where I am weak in. I don't see my posts about this women as about her failings but rather how I can develop and move forward because I don't have the confidence gained from experience. Ironically I do meet quite of women in my daily life at work and school. I have tried to approach women at work in 2 instances (1 person I found out and is in a committed relationship, another ironically I found on a dating site, reached out but found out we are not compatible being pro-life, dedicated Christian, conservative and she rejected me), other women I've been interested in I found out were also in committed relationships. Almost all the women from work are in relationships or families. In school I thought there might be more opportunity (I'm getting my MBA) but again most women are in relationships or seemed just interested in school.           

Edited December 17, 2022 by dragonwalker

[dragonwalker]

35 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

OP I speak sort of the guy version of the lady you are dating. Chances are she doesn't want to discuss those things as she feels uncomfortable, you need to make her feel comfortable.

If you are really into her the best thing I cam suggest is open communication. Be very soft and comforting in the way you do it. Always remember it can be very hard for someone to open up.

Most of all have a degree of patience.

 

Hi ZA, interesting you say this because that is what my thoughts are leaning towards as far as how I should treat this. I do know a good amount of the advice I get on here will be from people more use to a faster, more traditional flow and approach but I find it helpful to hear all opinions whether they are critical or supportive of my actions. 

[basil67]

These things you complain about - this is who she is.  If you want to have a long and healthy relationship with her, you need to accept her as she is.   Honestly, the only conversation you need to have is one with yourself.  Can I love her for who she is?  

[Els]

36 minutes ago, dragonwalker said:

She did say in her childhood she was raised in a home where parents didn't say that they love you or show much affection or anything (this is not uncommon in the culture we are both from). Like myself she was a single child and I had similar experiences with my parents but my grandparents were more affectionate and later in life my mother recognized this and we are intentional as we can to hug. I know it may sound silly to some but growing up I never really heard or saw love or affection displayed in the traditional western sense. My father was not a pleasant person and I think in some ways I'm socially stunted and or damaged in this way. That's why I'm trying to recognize whether what I see and experience being the result of my own issues or maybe there is something more to it. I have sought professional help before and it wasn't that helpful.        

I understand this, having had the same experiences in childhood myself. In fact, this is probably more the norm than the exception in some cultures - including mine, which I suspect is similar to yours.

The problem, as I see it, is that you seem to want a person who is "traditional/conservative" in some ways, but "modern/Western" in others. This is not impossible to find, but it makes things exponentially more difficult. So you really need to have a think about what is important to you, and what isn't.

Asking her to change her sexual choices, clothing choices, how she spends her weekends etc... is not going to work. You have been together for 6 months. Normally, this is the honeymoon period. If you insist that you want to stay with her despite all of these issues, then you will just have to learn to accept how she is.

[dragonwalker]

19 minutes ago, Elswyth said:

I understand this, having had the same experiences in childhood myself. In fact, this is probably more the norm than the exception in some cultures - including mine, which I suspect is similar to yours.

The problem, as I see it, is that you seem to want a person who is "traditional/conservative" in some ways, but "modern/Western" in others. This is not impossible to find, but it makes things exponentially more difficult. So you really need to have a think about what is important to you, and what isn't.

Asking her to change her sexual choices, clothing choices, how she spends her weekends etc... is not going to work. You have been together for 6 months. Normally, this is the honeymoon period. If you insist that you want to stay with her despite all of these issues, then you will just have to learn to accept how she is.

Thanks, I get what you are saying here and the common advice I hear about not being with someone in hopes of changing them.  I admit some things like her openness to sexuality are more hard coded at this point and I will have to accept it barring the possibility she might be like myself and very good at withholding. 

However other things like her clothing which are fundamentally not that important, I wonder is that something that is part of someone's identity who wears things not very flattering? I mean if we talk about traditional there are things she could wear from 100 years ago that would look better. My point is, is it to much to ask your partner to make those kinds of changes? I mean if she told me she really didn't like something I wore a lot because it looked terrible, I would consider it and I would strongly consider making that change. It's not like a big deal. I don't think it's wrong of me to expect a longer term partner to make simple compromises, again not that clothing is truly one of those issues but it's an example since other people have addressed it as well. 

For example, imagine partner who like to drink a lot. However in other aspects they are great, if the drinking is an issue for one partner, couldn't it be reasonable that the partner drinking consider drinking less because their partner didn't like it? I know the example is more extreme but aren't relationships about compromise? Regarding her friends, if she's really in a spot where she is happy with the level of social interaction than that's fine, if she is truly happy that way. I mean it's possible she does have plenty of friends that she just doesn't mention anything about. 

[basil67]

27 minutes ago, dragonwalker said:

However other things like her clothing which are fundamentally not that important, I wonder is that something that is part of someone's identity who wears things not very flattering? I mean if we talk about traditional there are things she could wear from 100 years ago that would look better. My point is, is it to much to ask your partner to make those kinds of changes? I mean if she told me she really didn't like something I wore a lot because it looked terrible, I would consider it and I would strongly consider making that change. It's not like a big deal. I don't think it's wrong of me to expect a longer term partner to make simple compromises, again not that clothing is truly one of those issues but it's an example since other people have addressed it as well. 

For example, imagine partner who like to drink a lot. However in other aspects they are great, if the drinking is an issue for one partner, couldn't it be reasonable that the partner drinking consider drinking less because their partner didn't like it? I know the example is more extreme but aren't relationships about compromise? Regarding her friends, if she's really in a spot where she is happy with the level of social interaction than that's fine, if she is truly happy that way. I mean it's possible she does have plenty of friends that she just doesn't mention anything about. 

I can relate to both of these examples:    I tell my husband all the time that some of his clothes are past their best.  He still wears them   As you say, clothes are not fundamentally important, and that applies to the partner's opinion too.    With respect to drinking, he'd already lost a previous partner due to his drinking, so when we met, he was ready to slow it down.  That's not to say that there haven't been some glitches, but we kind of naturally met in the middle with me ending up drinking more and him drinking less.  

All in all though, I believe that one should not enter a relationship if they already want their partner to compromise on things.  There are just too many things which you're unhappy about to make this work.

[glows]

Do you have a problem feeling sexually attracted to her? I feel like the clothing issue is a secondary issue where you’re projecting a lot of your pent up sexual frustration on the fact that she wears clothes that you perceive as unflattering. What’s attractive or flattering is in the eye of the beholder or even the person wearing it. She may wear loose or flowing clothing because she can move better or she may feel sticky or sweat and feel uncomfortable in polyester or mixed fabrics. 

It’s not to say that you can’t bring it up gently but I’m also thinking most would regard this fixation as rather childish. I am sorry and don’t mean to be rude. The bottomline is the relationship isn’t progressing in terms of sex and you can’t seem to make yourselves both comfortable enough to get to that point. It’s not really about her clothing or whether she looks unflattering. 

You brought up her hobbies which seem..scarce? Have you asked her if she would be interested in trying out a new hobby like salsa or bachata? Or dance classes? Would she be interested in joining something with you? She may have fewer friends than you or they’ve moved away. Have you asked her what she likes to do as a social outlet? 

And lastly I think your introspection is the most unaffected and sincere that I’ve read on the forums in a long time. Keep communicating and being open with her. Try new activities too. What do you do when you meet each other weekly? 

[dragonwalker]

More responses to questions. 

@glows, in regards to the clothing issue. I think it's brought up in these posts a lot because there are certain details I mentioned in previous post which others have commented on and I've responded to and then I'm repeating some details in this post which again people have commented on and I have responded to again and I think that is overemphasizing my perceiving importance on this. The importance of her clothing to me is truly low but it's an easy example I've cited in my discussion to reflect upon her conservative views, it's not meant to be the focus of how I feel about her.

So in regards to the progression part, I had thought a more intimate approach such as maybe suggesting watching something together and eating together (rather than at a restaurant) and maybe suggesting doing it other than at the dining table might be one way to clue her in to something more romantic. At least one person suggested trying to invite myself into her room was not a good idea. Maybe I stated how I would do that incorrectly, I thought maybe sort of just bringing up how her room is like and having her invite me to see it would be what I had in mind. I am genuinely curious because I think someone's room can tell people a lot about how a person is. It's ironic how she has been over to my mother's home before she has even been to mine. I think she knows and can trust that I wouldn't do anything uncomfortable to her. I really though an invitation to my place was something nice I could do to share a bit of what my life is also like. 

One of the things I like to do is play board games and we actually played a game at her home the last time I went. We played for 5 hours and she seemed to be enjoying it and suggested to do it again next time. I appreciated how she watched a video on how the game is played and seemed to be an active participant in it. It's an interesting idea about sharing in a hobby together. I did ask her if she danced and ofcourse she does not and neither do I. We've both shared that we tend to avoid those social events with alcohol, music, dance, and many people. It's draining for both of us but we do it almost I think as a matter of duty when the occasion calls for it but its drains the batteries so to speak. I haven't asked her what she does as a social outlet and I think that's a good question. I'm a bit afraid to ask because from all the information, I have inferred that she doesn't really have a social life and I avoided specifically asking her to avoid bringing up something embarrassing to her. I might be thinking to much about it but I know when there is something embarrassing for me I hate when people ask about it. For example, in the past when family asks something like if I have a girlfriend or not and I say no and they start prying. 

One other sensitive topic I've been thinking about how to bring up is her father. I've asked about her family before in the past and she's talked about them and at one point mentioned years ago when she was in college her father got sick, she returned after graduating to watch over him. Later on I asked some question about her father and she referred back to telling me about how he was sick many years ago and would tell me another time about him. I put some pieces together and I suspect her father may have passed away or possibly estranged from her as she only refers to her father in the past tense and now that I think of it doesn't directly acknowledge him when I refer to him in the present. I've also only met her mother when I came to their home and when I invited her mother over she made no mention of her father. Clearly since she hasn't said outright I think it seems to be another uncomfortable subject. Again, not critical that I know but for instance I think at this point it's not impolite to ask directly? If anything so I can tell my mother not to ask directly if the circumstances are not pleasant. 

We've done quite a lot of things together such as going to the arboretum, museum, watching a movie (Bullet Train), comedy club, King Tut exhibit, home cooked meal, walk at a nearby outlet, watch Netflix (the Crown),  played a board game, Thanksgiving meal and every time we go out we eat out somewhere. I've paid for about 75% of the things. We don't go to expensive places but still much more than she would on her own (she normally eats out every 2-3 weeks for instance). So she's open to new experiences like the comedy club which we both went together for the first time and doing or watching things we wouldn't normally do. There has been one forum member who provided some good ideas which I've used/plan to use. I enjoyed doing these things and my time with her that I wouldn't otherwise do on my own.                

   

[ZA Dater]

5 hours ago, dragonwalker said:

Hi ZA, interesting you say this because that is what my thoughts are leaning towards as far as how I should treat this. I do know a good amount of the advice I get on here will be from people more use to a faster, more traditional flow and approach but I find it helpful to hear all opinions whether they are critical or supportive of my actions. 

Your posts resonate heavily with me because your gf seems in many respects like me and your approach resonates.

Again I think you need to.have gentle chats, my own experience of dating ended in disaster because of a lack of communication, I am very, very much like you describe your GF to be and over time not communicating lead to what will be the biggest regret I carry around with me.

My advice, communicate, maker her feel wanted but not pressured and gently try and move things along.

Your honest and practical approach is refreshing to read. I can also heavily relate to your point of view on dating.

Do not do what I did and ignore everything because it will end badly someone will simply get tired of "waiting" and the whole relationship will fall apart.

[Weezy1973]

Agree with Za Dater that this is all about communication and that seems to be a challenge for both of you. You seem like a genuinely kind person which is likely why she is dating you. However there doesn’t seem to be any escalation in intimacy either emotionally or physically. And from your posts it seems like you crave it (which is pretty normal). As you’re very comfortable writing, have you thought about writing her to tell her some of the thoughts you’ve expressed here - specifically about intimacy. Letting her know you are attracted to her and would like things to move forward etc. and would like her thoughts too as you don’t want to push her if she’s not comfortable.  
 

As far as her clothes thing goes - I’d just let it go. If she likes what she’s wearing that’s the important thing at this point. Once you’re married then you can tease each other about clothes. My wife has succumbed to my boring style at this point though and accepts me as I am. She still teases me about it though. 

[Els]

19 hours ago, dragonwalker said:

However other things like her clothing which are fundamentally not that important, I wonder is that something that is part of someone's identity who wears things not very flattering? I mean if we talk about traditional there are things she could wear from 100 years ago that would look better. My point is, is it to much to ask your partner to make those kinds of changes?

Yes, asking someone to change the clothes they wear daily after dating for only 6 months because you find them unattractive otherwise is absolutely too much. In fact, I don't think it's doable long term in any way. At 6 months, if you're asking your partner to get a completely new wardrobe, the vast majority of people would tell you to sod off. The very few people who actually cave and do it, would likely only do it once in a while - because on a daily basis, nobody wants to be wearing something they don't like themselves. The very, very, very few people who are willing to make the change every day, would keep it up for as long as the honeymoon (or at most premarital) phase lasts, which is 2 years tops. Then what is going to happen?

And we haven't even reached the crux of the issue yet - that you're not attracted to her. It is 100% obvious. It's not even just your lack of "gushing" - many of us don't gush about our partners, even though we are very attracted to them. It's the culmination of things you've said - that you don't think you're attractive yourself, that you don't think you could find anyone else, that time is passing for you, that she ticks the boxes on paper "but X, Y, Z"... These are all not things that any of us who ARE attracted to our partners are thinking at 6 months in.

For the life of me, I don't understand why you would proceed with trying to change her rather than changing yourself to be more attractive to the women you like. But if you insist on settling, then it's your choice. Accept it with grace, rather than trying to take the only woman who is willing to date you and trying to mold her into the ideal woman that you wish would be attracted to you. Sorry for being harsh, but she really deserves someone who IS attracted to her, or at the very least accepts her for who she is. You're not that person.

[dragonwalker]

3 minutes ago, Elswyth said:

Yes, asking someone to change the clothes they wear daily after dating for only 6 months because you find them unattractive otherwise is absolutely too much. In fact, I don't think it's doable long term in any way. At 6 months, if you're asking your partner to get a completely new wardrobe, the vast majority of people would tell you to sod off. The very few people who actually cave and do it, would likely only do it once in a while - because on a daily basis, nobody wants to be wearing something they don't like themselves. The very, very, very few people who are willing to make the change every day, would keep it up for as long as the honeymoon (or at most premarital) phase lasts, which is 2 years tops. Then what is going to happen?

And we haven't even reached the crux of the issue yet - that you're not attracted to her. It is 100% obvious. It's not even just your lack of "gushing" - many of us don't gush about our partners, even though we are very attracted to them. It's the culmination of things you've said - that you don't think you're attractive yourself, that you don't think you could find anyone else, that time is passing for you, that she ticks the boxes on paper "but X, Y, Z"... These are all not things that any of us who ARE attracted to our partners are thinking at 6 months in.

For the life of me, I don't understand why you would proceed with trying to change her rather than changing yourself to be more attractive to the women you like. But if you insist on settling, then it's your choice. Accept it with grace, rather than trying to take the only woman who is willing to date you and trying to mold her into the ideal woman that you wish would be attracted to you. Sorry for being harsh, but she really deserves someone who IS attracted to her, or at the very least accepts her for who she is. You're not that person.

@ElswythThank you for your insight. I believe I may have misspoke if you feel that I'm going to be asking her to change what she wears. The section you quoted was meant to be an example of compromise in a relationship and acknowledge the general wisdom of its importance. I certainly won't be asking her to change what she wears now however I would expect at some point to be free to share my opinion to her and for her to listen and then make her own choice. I wouldn't be offended either way. Regardless, I'm not sure why someone would be so offended if someone made suggestions about their wardrobe? I think it's possible that clothing might be a larger part of someone's identity than it is for me. In our day to day lives we adhere and conform to what people tell us to wear all the time at work or at social events. If one wore shorts and a t-shirt to a business meeting, it wouldn't be acceptable. Conversely, one wouldn't wear a suit to a party in this instance because the social rules dictate otherwise. I don't think it uncommon that people might remember years later some article of clothing that sticks out of context in a certain situation. Think of people's memory of an event and often it's what a person wore which is most memorable if it didn't conform. I think my acknowledgement of her nonconformity is just a sign of my own conditioning to expect to see what society deems as normal and regular. 

I will say that I am attracted to her OR that I have at least convinced myself that I am which I think has the same benefit. As I've said my personality is keen on analyzing things and I do believe that some practical elements are of greater importance than you think when it comes to two people finding each other suitable for the long term such as ones own level of attractiveness compared to conventional standards, experience and other factors in one's life. When I say that I'm someone of very average or possibly below average appearance, with generally unsuccessful dating experiences, and relatively older (34) I'm not saying that the women I've met is not attractive. I am saying the evidence suggests that I will need to make certain compromises 

For most of my adult life I have done what I can to improve myself and be a better person but in the romance department I have largely been unsuccessful. On paper there isn't anything obviously wrong per se since I've worked at ensuring a comfortable living, worked on my education, good health, develop hobbies and friends. I'm grateful for what I do have and I feel I've felt and I've committed to some level of introspection. Yes, who I've met now does meet almost all of the things of a person I'd hope to meet and this entire time I've been working on how I can make this work. Ironically, nothing bad at all has happened and I think it's just my nature to think and analyze to ensure that I'm doing what I can for success. Therefore, I appreciate the most the people on this forum who can help me work on that.          

[basil67]

@dragonwalker can I ask what makes you think she may have romantic interest in you?   Because her behaviour makes me strongly suspect that she thinks she's found a friendly companion.  Has she ever described you a boyfriend?

[dragonwalker]

15 minutes ago, basil67 said:

@dragonwalker can I ask what makes you think she may have romantic interest in you?   Because her behaviour makes me strongly suspect that she thinks she's found a friendly companion.  Has she ever described you a boyfriend?

We normally hold hands, we’ve kissed a few times, and we met on a “more serious” dating site where her stated goal was a long term relationship. I did ask early on after a month or so of seeing her and asking about the slower pace at the time about the difference between us and friends and that’s when she went to hold my hand and we kissed not king after. I’ve asked her about kids eventually and like me she’d like to have more than 1. Not to mention I’ve paid for 3/4 of meals and at least with my friends that never happens so I know clearly we are not just friends.

[basil67]

None of the above means that she sees you as a boyfriend.  That she is looking for a long term relationship doesn't mean that she necessarily wants one with you.  Same with kids  Some people do kiss and cuddle but nothing more (and yes, it's confusing).  And it's not uncommon for women to have men pay even when they don't see a future (I do not agree with the behaviour of women who use men like this) 

I ask again, has she ever described you as a boyfriend?  Or, is she OK with you calling her a girlfriend?   Have the two of you ever discussed the next stages of your relationship?   Does she see a future with you and what does it look like?

[dragonwalker]

@basil67 I see your point and if she were more like a typical women I would tend to agree those actions and what she has said may not constitute a bf/gf relationship. No, neither one of us has directly asked one another if that is where we are at. I can think of one possibility and that is the reason I do not ask and it's because I lack the total confidence to know 100% that we are at that stage and I'm currently more comfortable avoiding the question. I will say that I am 100% confident that even if she doesn't consider me a bf yet, she is decided whether or not to and not that she regards me strictly as a friend.

I say this because in the same conversation we had above I jokingly asked her if she was judging whether or not I was a womanizer which she actually said she was and that she wanted to know I wasn't wasting her time. After explaining I would like to continue seeing her that's when she started holding hands and kissing. Now normally I guess you are right this isn't conclusive but given her socially conservative nature I do not believe she would do that just for a friend. Keep in mind she's the type of person for instance that practically has no social media and the one photo she does have on facebook for example is a picture of her when she was 5. 

I think another issue that causes some misunderstanding in my particular situation is the cultural context. Yes I was born and raised in the US and my parents immigrated to the US in the early 1980s and my mother is more or less quite well adapted to a western lifestyle but is conservative leaning. Interestingly, she doesn't believe things are moving slow at all and she doesn't even know we have kissed. I have told her a lot about her and they have met each other and my mother and uncle quite likes her. 

The culture I come from traditionally doesn't value the type of love that the west seeks. Marriages and relationships have traditionally been for more practical means and you can think of it as a union of families rather than individuals. I think some of these traditional ideas have passed down to me even though surprisingly no one ever said I had to adhere to that but my life is such that I have drifted toward that direction. Since the women I am seeing is of that same cultural background and similar temperament I feel that labels like boyfriend and girlfriend are just a little more distant that would be for a typical person and is not important. Although should I ask I believe she wouldn't have an issue being labeled that way but I feel the label might pressure her into thinking that she has to do more.  

With that said I've had several more serious conversations with her about "where things are going" and she has said up till about 1-2 months ago that she'd like to continue to see me and that we should continue to get to know each other more. In fact she often seems to open and avaibile which led me to bring up the question about her own life and friends. 

I do feel I want to open up to her more and I'd like her to feel the same way as sometimes I feel we are both very polite to each other. It's hard for me to describe but it's almost as if I feel there is more to her that she holds back. We've only known each other less than 5 months so this might not be unusual especially given her personality.      

[Wiseman2]

12 hours ago, dragonwalker said:

   We've only known each other less than 5 months so this might not be unusual especially given her personality.      

You seem to have insight into how much culture and traditions play a role here.

It's therefore highly unlikely that's she is going to dress sexier or move faster physically.

While you are assimilated and born in the USA, it doesn't mean cultural traditions are abandoned for fast-paced LA life.

You may have to accept her cultural traditions and norms or try to date women where conservatism and arranged marriages are not expected.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Wiseman2

[Els]

23 hours ago, dragonwalker said:

I will say that I am attracted to her OR that I have at least convinced myself that I am which I think has the same benefit.

Okay. I'm not entirely convinced that these two things are the same, but let's just go with this. Assuming that you are, in fact, attracted to her... this was your initial question to us:

Quote

How can I at least address what I have in mind without freaking her out?

You've said that you don't intend to ask her to change her wardrobe (whew!), and you don't intend to ask her to change her social choices (double whew)... so out of your three "major" complaints, it seems like you are intending to address the lack of sex?

Yet, you have also said that she was raised very conservatively and that she is very traditional, and that you value this in a partner. Obviously, in her situation, the issue is EXTREMELY unlikely to just be "you didn't make a move" or "she's just shy" or "she's just inexperienced" - which are the only cases where a conversation would help. Considering the cultural context here, you know as well as I do that the most likely reason for her reticence is that she was raised to believe in the principle that people don't have sex until they're married, and she probably also believes that people don't even TALK about sex until they're married. So what exactly are you hoping for this conversation to achieve?

If you're not even at the point where you can refer to each other as bf/gf, you are most definitely NOT at the point where you can talk about sex. Based on my experience of growing up in a traditional culture, anyhow.

[Els]

20 hours ago, basil67 said:

And it's not uncommon for women to have men pay even when they don't see a future (I do not agree with the behaviour of women who use men like this) 

I think I have a pretty good idea of which culture the OP and the woman are from... and in this culture, allowing a man to pay is actually one of the strongest social cues that a woman can give in the early months. (And conversely, insisting on splitting the bill all the time is an extremely strong social cue that she views him as a platonic friend).