Not sure if this is abuse?

[Mikefromcalifornia]

I have been separated from my wife for nearly 10 years.  We were married very young and were together as a married couple for 25 years.  We have an amazing friendship today and have 3 wonderful college age children.  While there is no romance between us,  we meet up for dinner or lunch maybe every other month or so.  I travel with her and my children on family vacations yearly (though i stay in a separate hotel room).  I spend time on Christmas and other holidays with her and my children.  Most people think its weird or its wrong,  but this works for us.  We still love eachother but are just not romantic with each other. I have had a few girlfriends over the years and she has had boyfriends but nothing very serious.  

I am now in a more serious relationship with a really great woman for the past 18 months.  I have always been  honest and up front about my friendship with my  (ex)wife. In the beginning it was not a problem at all.  Beginning about a year in to the relationship though things changed.  While she said she understands and respects my dynamic,  I can tell it kills her.  I feel bad that she feels bad but not bad enough to throw my friendship and dynamic away.  If I was forced to choose,  I would not choose her.  I know it is harsh but I am just being honest here.  I prefer not to have to choose. Other people have successful open relationships and this is not even an open relationship.  I am 100% committed and monogamous with my girlfriend.  I just have a close friendship with my (ex)wife.  

Over the past year there have been a half dozen or so very heated arguments either directly about my friendship or indirectly in a more passive aggressive way that have turned physical.  A couple times she pushed me,  another time she took my phone and smashed it, one time she hit me, and a few times when the argument got too heated and i tried to leave to allow things to cool off she has grabbed me and physically prevented me from leaving.  This happened again last night.  She is all of 95 lbs to my 200 lbs so its not a matter of her hurting me,  but I hate it.  

I have spoken about it with her and she always half apologizes then adds that its not abuse because she is not actually hurting me.  In addition to this she has a very short fuse and will get angry often and say mean things only to apologize soon after.  She accuses me of cheating (which I am not) she says she can not trust me.  She inspects my phone and gets annoyed and angry when I am on it.

Aside from this behavior that pops up once in awhile, she is as sweet as apple pie.  She is a giver and does a lot for me but sometimes I think she over gives.  She takes it upon herself to basically spoil me all the time.  Like me she owns her own company and makes a good living.  She  cooks and cleans and buys me things and really takes care of me like I have never been taken care of in my life but sometimes it seems that this gives her license to mistreat me when she is mad.  She will get mad if I don't do the same little sweet things for her that she does for me.  She gets mad if I fail to say I love you too in a text or she will say "I think you are forgetting something" which is kind of annoying because I am a very sweet guy,  I just sometimes can not compete with her level of sweetness.  I hope this makes sense.  Its like she does a lot for me,  like a LOT LOT LOT,  but there are strings attached.  

She is a bit younger than me at 48 to my 53 and she has never been married.  She has had many 3-5 year relationships but never married and no children.  

Anyway,  I really care for her a lot and feel I could fall in love with her if she would stop being so controlling and easily angry and easily physical.  We get along well most of the time and have so much in common but I am seriously thinking about breaking up with her.  She says she will never be physical with me again but then she ends up doing it again when she is angry or in the mood to fight and I am not in the mood to fight.  

I would love some advice         

[Johnjohnson2017]

She probably suffered from infidelity with her previous boyfriends. She has been betrayed many times and cannot trust men anymore. No matter how many times you tell her that you are not sleeping with your ex, she will not believe you.

[glows]

I’m not certain it’s your ex-wife that is the issue although you’re hard-pressed to find someone who will accept your ex-wife as a bestie. Do you communicate daily for example or go to her for any questions? 

The problem seems more that you’re involved with someone who is deeply unsettled with anger issues. This is a person who hits you and throws things or is prone to violence.

Instead of leaving the situation she still seeks to find control in it by being overly sweet. Nothing makes sense because it doesn’t.

She tells you her actions don’t count because she doesn’t physically hurt you but it does hurt you mentally or emotionally or you wouldn’t be here. In her own words she tells you she doesn’t trust you. Yet stays in the relationship. There are too many double standards and contradictions. 

Edited November 30, 2022 by glows

[poppyfields]

Nevermind HER, why do YOU stay?

I really do wish people would take more personal responsibility for their actions and decisions and stop attempting to analyze and blame their partners. 

She's got issues, obviously, but that should not be your concern. 

Your concern is you and why you choose to remain in a relationship with a person like this.  

Yes it's absolutely abuse, I think you know that too, you must. 

Her excessive "sweetness" is part of it, it's manipulation.

The entire sitch (ranging from sweetness to abuse) has got you on an emotional roller coaster and it's on you to decide to get off. 

I'm really sorry if this sounds harsh but honestly, own your role.  Which means respecting yourself, taking responsibility for your life, and moving on.

She's a grown woman, she can work out her own issues. 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by poppyfields

[ShyViolet]

Why on earth have you not broken up with this woman already?  Why are you tolerating this?  She is unhinged and physically assaults you.  The first time she did this is when you should have broken up with her.  It does not matter that she's much smaller than you and doesn't actually hurt you.  It absolutely doesn't matter that she is nice "most" of the time, in between her abusive episodes.  She smashed your phone, isn't that enough?  Even though she hasn't physically hurt you yet, she is creating an emotionally unsafe and toxic environment.   You need to end this immediately.  

[NuevoYorko]

What does it matter whether it's technically "abuse" or not?  It's messed up and you hate it.  You wouldn't choose her if asked to choose.  So consider yourself asked to choose - and drop the maniacal gf.

[Ami1uwant]

I do t care hoepw applied she is.  She’s violent/abusive with you.  End of story in my book.

 

these arguments were about jealousy on your relationship with you ex wife and jealousy.  If she had been married with kids she’d probable could understand it and not react this way.

[Lotsgoingon]

Yes, this is abuse--absolutely and you're complying with it by staying with her and buying her excuses--totally flim-flam excuses--I didn't really hurt you. How would she know? 

Get out. If she's like this early on, trust me this will only get worse later. To know what she would be like you need to imagine her behavior 5x as bad. OMG, my ex wasn't quite this bad and she turned out to be horribly abusive--without hitting you. 

You're being hit. You really want to get out of this. You will lose all sanity staying. This kind of person can ruin your life--or rather, your decision to stay with this kind of person can literally ruin an entire life. 

[Wiseman2]

7 hours ago, Mikefromcalifornia said:

 . I can tell it kills her.  I feel bad that she feels bad but not bad enough to throw my friendship and dynamic away.  If I was forced to choose,  I would not choose her.

She's not ok with your arrangement. Not many women will be. You stated she cooks and cleans for you?  She seems furious that she's treated like a second class citizen. Let her go. She's not ok with you and your estranged wife still acting like a family.

[ExpatInItaly]

Absolutely, she is abusive. 

Get out of the relationship. There is just no excuse for her behaviour, nor any good reason to stay with an abuser. 

[JTSW]

She is incredibly insecure about your friendship with your ex-wife (which is great and completely healthy btw).

But her insecurities will never go away.

She is violent and abusive and over compensates with doing too much for you.

She is not a stable person.

You need to be firm with her and tell her you will not put up with her behaviour any longer.

Tell her she either accepts that you are friends with your ex (the mother of your children) and stops her violent behaviour or the relationship is over.

Tell her if she hits you one more time then that's it, you are done. 

It's easy for us to say end the relationship, but it's clear you really care about her.

You need to put some boundaries in place and be very firm with her.

[Wiseman2]

13 hours ago, Mikefromcalifornia said:

. Other people have successful open relationships 

Unfortunately you two aren't ok with it. It's harsh to say you love your wife and would take her over whoever you're with. Where does that leave a new partner?

Do you live in her house? If so move out. It's not worth the turmoil it's causing both of you. Your attachment to your wife is something you may need to examine before you bring someone into your life again. As far as this goes, it seems beyond repair.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Wiseman2

[Will am I]

I think I would side with your new partner. The relationship is evolving into something more permanent and she needs to put up with the fact that your ex wife is never out of the picture. 

Establish clear boundaruies. Engaging in a new permanent relationship will mean taking more distance from your ex wife.

[mark clemson]

Yes - it's a pattern of behavior, not just isolated one-offs. 

It sounds like she has substantial anger management issues. Her nice treatment of you overall may be overcompensating. It's also possible she has some tendencies of a personality disorder (many people have some tendencies). It sounds like mild abuse to me, but that doesn't make it any more fun or easy to deal with.

19 hours ago, Mikefromcalifornia said:

 She has had many 3-5 year relationships

And now you're seeing why this is so.

Contrary to popular opinion, sometimes it's possible for people to change, particularly if they see they have a problem and want to. However, there's no guarantee of success.

IF you want to try to make this more tolerable/get her to change, I think it would take open acknowledgement of the issue and genuine desire to change from her, as well as working with a therapist to manage her issues. The prospect of your relationship ending might be enough to bring that about, might not.

Up to you whether you would want to try this. You've seen how she "really" is for now and for at least the foreseeable short to mid term future. Certainly no one would blame you for simply leaving, as ultimately these are her problems to deal with, not yours.

BTW open relationships can be QUITE tricky to manage, even for those who genuinely want them. Nor would that be something to try to get a not-interested partner to try to accept.

Also you should certainly be "allowed" to have friends by a partner. However, since your ex wife was obviously a romantic interest, it's understandable how she could feel threatened by your Ex's continued presence in your life.

Edited December 1, 2022 by mark clemson

[Alpacalia]

It is abusive to hit you, push you, and smash your phone.

End it now.

Despite the fact that your relationship with your ex is not ideal, it is far more advantageous for you to be in a relationship with a woman who accepts your relationship with her.

[Stret]

A bit different opinion:

She obviously has issues unrelated to you from her past (perhaps even childhood) - but you trigger those issues and bring the worst out of her, her insecurities, her feeling that she lacks any control (which manifests itself as aggression), etc. More specifically, it is a relationship with your ex that is bothering her as it would bother most other women. Not everyone would react like she, some would simple leave you. 
She feels like a side show and you acknowledge that she is playing a second fiddle in your life in comparison to your ex wife. That is the core of the problem in your relationship and you are not being realistic expecting someone who loves you to be ok with it. Her reactions are intense and it all comes from pain you cause her it seems. 

She can be and sweet and have those issues - it doesn't mean she is manipulative. It can mean she wants to show you that she is good and that she tries every day, maybe that is her primary nature. Until you trigger her fears and make her feel like everything she does, doesn't matter to you when it is about your ex, you will be running to her. 

I had a very short relationship with someone who was too close friends with his ex girlfriend. I felt I could never get close enough to him and broke up after two-three months. Dodged a bullet, as they say. 

If you cared enough about your gf (which you don't) you offer have some sort of compromise and you would stick to it. See and meet ex only very rarely, on some occasions that involve kids, like graduation, funerals, etc. 

Decent thing from you would be to let her go - not because you think she is abusive, but because you cannot offer her the emotional safety and the kind of love that she needs. 

She does need to work on herself though, perhaps with a therapist, as her reactions were quite severe - but again, I think it comes from pain and anger (about you and other things in the past).

 

[smackie9]

From someone who has been in an abusive relationship, I advise you to get out now! Typical cycle of abuse. They say they are sorry , won't happen again, sweet as pie, they are amazing, then they get crazy on you, hit you, throw things at you, etc. Then they wash, rinse, repeat. There is no fixing this but to leave. As for your ex, it's wonderful that you get along great BUT I think it's time to cut the strings off a bit. I feel the one thing that is holding the both of you back in finding another meaningful relationship with someone else is the fact you two really haven't let go of each other. Now that the kids are moving on with their lives, I think it's time for you two to do the same and make a few changes.

Edited December 1, 2022 by smackie9

[Calmandfocused]

Op You need to understand this clearly: 

The only women who are going to accept your situation with your ex wife are those who are unhealthy/ unstable/ dysfunctional etc. 

No healthy woman in her right mind with healthy self respect would want this for herself. Not going to happen. 
 

So my advice to you first of all is; understand that  you can’t have your cake and eat it. You cannot have a healthy relationship with a new partner and your ex wife. That’s just the way it is and the way it will always be …. Something to think about. 
 

However, yes you’ve got yourself an abusive mentally unstable girlfriend. Putting her hands on you is not ok! Period! 
 

This is a recipe for disaster. It won’t and cannot work. You have the power to change this. Do this for your own safety and for hers. 

[basil67]

Yes, this is physical abuse.  But your choice to stay besties with your ex is tantamount to emotional abuse.  The whole situation is toxic.  

You're going to have to choose between being with your current partner or having your ex-w as your bestie.  You can't have both

[Lotsgoingon]

And yes, agree with others: staying friends with your ex is unhealthy for you and for building any partnership with a new person.

Your current partner should just dump you and move on. But you've got some toxic stuff going on that you stay friends with an ex AND you tolerate abuse. Seems like a major boundaries problem.

You really want build more backbone and independence to know you can take care of yourself (and stop talking to the ex) and to be able to stand up for yourself (against your current partner). 

Without fixing the boundaries/low confidence problem, you have no choice but to repeat this pattern. 

[introverted1]

Yes, it's abuse, and you should end the relationship. Your gf's reactions are inappropriate regardless what's going on between you and your ex.

That said, it will be a rare partner indeed who will accept your current arrangement with your ex -- dinners out, vacations together, etc.  This does not mean that other women will also be abusive or that your arrangement in some way justifies being abused, but if you are hoping to find along-term gf who won't mind, I'd say you have reduced your dating pool considerable.

[NuevoYorko]

Well here I am being the devil's advocate again ... my ex wife and I have a (now adult) daughter.  We also used to have a business together.  We are all very close.  The family bond never broke even though our marriage did.  

I have a partner.  We live together.  Our relationship is very sound and extremely precious to me.   We were at my ex's house for Thanksgiving, as we have been for the past several years.  We will do some socializing throughout the holidays like we always do.  Ex and SO are friends, in a family sense - they don't seek out opportunities to do stuff together.  My ex's relationship with my SO is pretty much the same as my sister's relationship with her.   Very happy to get together and enjoy times, play board games, once in a while rented a vacation place together, etc.  Sometimes they have a text flurry if something that they both are into comes up, or a hilarious joke.

It's not that unusual.  A good friend of mine just spent the holiday with his ex's family - his ex father in law had passed away and they were all very close.  His ex's husband is 100% cool with it.  

Not every relationship is incapable of evolving into something completely different.  And there are some people who will always be in each others' lives even if the roles change.

[poppyfields]

On 11/30/2022 at 1:35 PM, Mikefromcalifornia said:

I am now in a more serious relationship with a really great woman for the past 18 months. 

 

On 11/30/2022 at 1:35 PM, Mikefromcalifornia said:

A couple times she pushed me,  another time she took my phone and smashed it, one time she hit me, and a few times when the argument got too heated and i tried to leave to allow things to cool off she has grabbed me and physically prevented me from leaving.

These two comments contradict. 

She's a really great woman BUT she physically abuses me, destroys my belongs and blocks me from leaving the scene. 

How is that being "really great"?  Not quite getting your rationale there.

In any event, I agree with @NuevoYorko.  No reason why y'all can't be amicable.   

Have you ever suggested to your girlfriend and/or ex wife that they meet each other?

If not, it sounds secretive, that you may be hiding something.

Nevertheless, the abuse is unacceptable and grounds for ending things and as I asked in my previous post, I am wondering why you haven't.

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by poppyfields

[mark clemson]

It takes genuine emotional maturity to stay friends with an ex after they move on AND genuine emotional maturity and a lot of trust on a partner's part to not feel threatened by anything more than a cursory friendship with one. Some people have it and can handle these things, some don't. Some probably could but don't see a need.

[mark clemson]

^^ I should also add that it takes "the right Ex" as some Ex's are total pains, generate unnecessary drama, etc. So the emotional maturity of a person won't matter, if their Ex just causes trouble for them.