How to approach this

[BaileyB]

50 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I guess just proves that having no experience is a total deal breaker.

How do you explain the millions of people who have no experience but somehow manage to grow and create a lasting relationship? 

You had lots of advice, you had a lot of time… if she is done then that is because she did not want to wait forever for this relationship to progress. That’s the expected consequence when an adult woman forms a relationship with a man that doesn’t progress in the way she wants or expects…

50 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I want to try again.

What about all the posts claiming that you were not really attracted to her, you didn’t have the time to be in a relationship, and you were too much of a loner to ever be in an intimate relationship. What’s changed? 

For goodness sake, learn from this but let her go. Don’t give her the impression that you want to try again only to continue with this kind of self defeating behavior - it’s not fair to her. 
 

Edited October 9, 2022 by BaileyB

[ZA Dater]

53 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

How do you explain the millions of people who have no experience but somehow manage to grow and create a lasting relationship? 

You had lots of advice, you had a lot of time… if she is done then that is because she did not want to wait forever for this relationship to progress. That’s the expected consequence when an adult woman forms a relationship with a man that doesn’t progress in the way she wants or expects…

What about all the posts claiming that you were not really attracted to her, you didn’t have the time to be in a relationship, and you were too much of a loner to ever be in an intimate relationship. What’s changed? 

For goodness sake, learn from this but let her go. Don’t give her the impression that you want to try again only to continue with this kind of self defeating behavior - it’s not fair to her. 
 

Or expects.....difficult if the person has no experience. 

Good time to give up it would seem.

[BaileyB]

12 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

difficult if the person has no experience. 

Everyone who is in a relationship today has at some point, had no experience with relationships. 

It was a choice you made, you let the wall down a little bit but you never did decide to jump over it. Learn from this. That’s what failed relationships offer - lessons. 

[ZA Dater]

16 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Everyone who is in a relationship today has at some point, had no experience with relationships. 

It was a choice you made, you let the wall down a little bit but you never did decide to jump over it. Learn from this. That’s what failed relationships offer - lessons. 

Please you cannot equate having no experience at 16yo to having no experience at 38yo. 

Lessons, frankly it took me most of my life to find someone I really liked and connected with, do not fancy my chances going forward. Today at sit a hospital watching a once strong family member struggle to climb out of bed, earlier another family member calls me because they are completely disorientated. My point is life moves, it changes and no matter how I try I am simply useless at dating, NOBODY will ever give me the opportunity she has. But maybe nothing is all I actually deserve. 

The one chance I had actually experiencing something great is now gone. 

What is there to really look forward to? Nothing really. Its really easy to say jump over a wall but its incredibly hard to do.

Edited October 9, 2022 by ZA Dater

[BaileyB]

28 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Please you cannot equate having no experience at 16yo to having no experience at 38yo. 

Its really easy to say jump over a wall but its incredibly hard to do.

For what it’s worth, I was 39 years old when I met my partner. Prior, I had really only had very short term relationships with men. Nothing serious. I had no experience.

I realize that everyone is different. I just think this is a very self defeating and frankly, inaccurate assessment of the situation. 

Edited October 9, 2022 by BaileyB

[Weezy1973]

34 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

The one chance I had actually experiencing something great is now gone. 

It is extremely rare for anybody’s first relationship to work out. As has been said, the important thing (once your grief has passed) is to learn from this. Let her go, and think of the things you will do differently when your next relationship starts. 
 

Also before shooting down every poster’s advice on here, remember how right we all were previously. Also keep in mind you do have experience now, so lack of experience is no longer a thing moving forward.

[BaileyB]

50 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Today at sit a hospital watching a once strong family member struggle to climb out of bed, earlier another family member calls me because they are completely disorientated. My point is life moves, it changes

Coincidentally, it was actually the illness and the death of a dear family member who brought me back to dating when I had long given up… because I realized in that hospital room that what matters most in life is who is sitting beside you. In the end, it’s all about relationships and experiences.

And even more coincidentally, the first person that I met/dated after making that decision was the love of my life. 

I hope things improve for your family. 

Edited October 9, 2022 by BaileyB

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

It is extremely rare for anybody’s first relationship to work out. As has been said, the important thing (once your grief has passed) is to learn from this. Let her go, and think of the things you will do differently when your next relationship starts. 
 

Also before shooting down every poster’s advice on here, remember how right we all were previously. Also keep in mind you do have experience now, so lack of experience is no longer a thing moving forward.

Not interested quite frankly. One of the things you are right on is yes I am not really that motivated to get back on OLD, I spent years there, my entire life is so flawed to make me wholly unattractive to anyone who I would find vaguely attractive. Ultimately I got what I deserved here, a huge metaphorical kick to the face. 

Frankly to think I had any chance of any degree of relationship happiness with someone I found attractive was perhaps deluding myself from the outset.

 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, BaileyB said:

Coincidentally, it was actually the illness and the death of a dear family member who brought me back to dating when I had long given up… because I realized in that hospital room that what matters most in life is who is sitting beside you. In the end, it’s all about relationships and experiences.

And even more coincidentally, the first person that I met/dated after making that decision was the love of my life. 

I hope things improve for your family. 

Thank you.

When its my time to go, I hope its swift because I'll have nobody around me, my usefulness would have long passed and with it anyone who cared enough would be long gone. I tried here as I do with everything but it was a lack of communication which failed me, but ultimately its a pattern in life, I try and I try and others who work half as much and try half as much always seem to be ahead.

What frustrates me is I do not get to make this right, the fact I hurt her bothers me more than any pain I might feel. Here I did open myself up and look how this ended up. I am going to try once more to see if I can make this right. If not well then frankly I just give up. All of this was about apparently becoming official, in my infinite stupidity I thought going on dates, dinners, weekends away meant I was dating someone. Actions and words, I dunno maybe one day I'll find something in life that brings me some sort of happiness.

[Weezy1973]

@ZA Dater All this doom and gloom - it’s as if you’ve honestly learned nothing. We’ve all urged you to go to therapy and you’ve vehemently rejected it claiming you’re some completely unique case therapy can’t possibly help. Most of us warned that even if you did find someone, being in a relationship will take vulnerability and trust. Your lack of self worth does you no favours and case in point this relationship where you were unwilling to even call it a relationship. No risk taken. Trying to play it safe. And now you’re suffering the consequences. 
 

But still you’re only 38. Your life is not suddenly doomed to one of loneliness forever. If you choose to, you can change that path. If you have the courage. 

[basil67]

Making it official doesn't even have to involve a discussion.  It can also be done with actions - primarily, making plans for a future together.   But an even bigger problem would be that you've stated that you dislike physical intimacy.  I'm assuming no sex/ no regular sex has been had, and that's just not going to work for the far majority of women.

The need for sex was raised a number of times in your previous thread.  Have you considered what your thought process is when we are advising you that you'll need to work towards sex?    For instance, do you ignore the advice thinking it will all be fine?  Or do you block it out because you don't want to hear it?  I'm not raising this as an "I told you so" but rather to have you reevaluate your thought process when it comes to asking/taking advice on romantic relationship.

Edited to add: I noticed you being upset about hurting her.  Did she she actually tell you that you hurt her?  If not, I wouldn't assume this is the case.  I think it's more likely she just got fed up with the lack of momentum and decided to move on.

Edited October 9, 2022 by basil67

[poppyfields]

Hi @ZA Dater, just caught up with this thread, good to see you. 

Recalling your previous threads and this one. I think you did hurt her, deeply. 

I think she's been feeling hurt for a very long time but remained with you because she saw something special in you and loved you. 

I sensed that from the very beginning and that if something didn't happen, eventually her hurt would turn to anger and she would leave. 

So now it's happened [ ] She's taking care of herself and her own needs.  [ ] 

Your reaction is interesting.  You say you want to try again? 

You had a year to "make something happen" but chose not to and now that she's gone you want to try again - to make something happen.

Groucho Marx coined the phrase "I wouldn't want to join a club that would have me as its member."

This is what I think is happening with you, at least on some level.

When she wanted you and was accepting of you, dare I say admired you, you felt uncertain, ambivalent, not sure what you wanted or where you wanted things with her to go.

My sense was you may have unconsciously assumed she was deficient in some way merely because she wanted you and loved you.  And because she wanted to join your club! 

Now she wants no part of your club and you want to try again, which again is interesting.

Perhaps her leaving caused you to gain a certain respect for her you never had before?

This is not uncommon, in fact it's quite common and happens a lot! 

The loss of someone sometimes kicks us in the rear and causes us to realize certain feelings/emotions  we weren't able to realize when they were standing right in front of us, so to speak. . 

JMO but I think your hesitation stems from a fear of vulnerability. 

She may have felt this too and unless and until you are willing to step away from your safe emotional comfort zone and allow yourself to feel vulnerable including sexually, perhaps it's best to let this go.

OR you could challenge and push yourself to escape the confines of your own self-imposed safe emotional haven, open yourself up emotionally and give it your best shot, assuming she is open to that. 

Fwiw, I vote for the latter!  I think you deseve that and so does she. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
civility

[Foxhall]

Just catching a bit of the thread there,

Id like to make this point to you for what its worth, feeling a bit philosophical and all that.

I think our lives are enriched  by these special if that is the right word, these special women that we meet,

I would say burying oneself in work to the exclusion of women is not the way to look on it,

the women will cause us frustration and difficulty from time to time ,but the nice experiences with women are good for the soul

  our lives ultimately are enriched by our female companions.

,

[ZA Dater]

11 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

@ZA Dater All this doom and gloom - it’s as if you’ve honestly learned nothing. We’ve all urged you to go to therapy and you’ve vehemently rejected it claiming you’re some completely unique case therapy can’t possibly help. Most of us warned that even if you did find someone, being in a relationship will take vulnerability and trust. Your lack of self worth does you no favours and case in point this relationship where you were unwilling to even call it a relationship. No risk taken. Trying to play it safe. And now you’re suffering the consequences. 
 

But still you’re only 38. Your life is not suddenly doomed to one of loneliness forever. If you choose to, you can change that path. If you have the courage. 

If I am going to throw money away I'd rather throw it toward people who need it and therapists based on my past experience do not. 

Oh really change that path by going back to OLD and going through that again? No thanks. I tried to date for 20 odd years and found ONE person who I liked in 20 years who actually was prepared to date me. That alone tells me everything.

Thanks for the encouragement though.

[ZA Dater]

9 hours ago, basil67 said:

Making it official doesn't even have to involve a discussion.  It can also be done with actions - primarily, making plans for a future together.   But an even bigger problem would be that you've stated that you dislike physical intimacy.  I'm assuming no sex/ no regular sex has been had, and that's just not going to work for the far majority of women.

The need for sex was raised a number of times in your previous thread.  Have you considered what your thought process is when we are advising you that you'll need to work towards sex?    For instance, do you ignore the advice thinking it will all be fine?  Or do you block it out because you don't want to hear it?  I'm not raising this as an "I told you so" but rather to have you reevaluate your thought process when it comes to asking/taking advice on romantic relationship.

Edited to add: I noticed you being upset about hurting her.  Did she she actually tell you that you hurt her?  If not, I wouldn't assume this is the case.  I think it's more likely she just got fed up with the lack of momentum and decided to move on.

Hence the reason why it will be pretty much impossible for me to date. For years I had to endure the ridicule that I did not want to sleep with everyone like everyone around me was doing. I stupidly thought just being me would be enough to attract someone, even that was not enough. The people I did want to sleep with would not give me the time of day and the one's who did sort of have some interest in me that way I did not find appealing in that way. Its not that I dislike intimacy, I just find it very awkward.

For the record I did sleep with her.

After sleeping for two hours I have simply just concluded that there is no real solution to my dating problem. I love spending time with her, waking up with her head on my shoulder, my trying to cook a decent meal, shared experiences. I wont find any of those things again, I know what I will find on OLD and its not that.

[Weezy1973]

4 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I wont find any of those things again,

Not with that belief. Again (and remember how wrong you were arguing about this before) the only thing in your way is your own beliefs. You never thought it was possible to ever date a woman where there was mutual attraction. And then you did. Now you’re saying you’ll never find it again! Why not? Most of us on here have had multiple relationships. Most of us are very average. You need to (again) challenge your own beliefs. And yes it’s hard. But that’s okay, 

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Not with that belief. Again (and remember how wrong you were arguing about this before) the only thing in your way is your own beliefs. You never thought it was possible to ever date a woman where there was mutual attraction. And then you did. Now you’re saying you’ll never find it again! Why not? Most of us on here have had multiple relationships. Most of us are very average. You need to (again) challenge your own beliefs. And yes it’s hard. But that’s okay, 

I am just going to go back to what I know which is nothing. What I learnt here is how fundamentally flawed I am as a person and how unbelievably hard it is to date when you do not know how to date. At the end of the day it is down to how marketable one is and the more marketable one is the more attractive one becomes, I am not marketable for a long list of reasons and I just need to accept that. 

Millions go through life alone, I am not different to any of them, there are hospitals with people in them who have nobody, its just the reality of life. I am sure those people tried really hard to and yet there they are still alone. 

While it was great to share life with someone I will like the few week with A just put this down as the world doing me a rare favor and allowing me to see there is in fact some good.

 

[ChatroomHero]

21 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Or expects.....difficult if the person has no experience. 

Good time to give up it would seem.

I expect this is your normal response, but you already admit your normal responses make you incompatible.

You say you were vulnerable but I think maybe you weren't really and that is the problem.

When she says, "Better to just be friends", being vulnerable is replying, "No. I want more. I don't accept that. We need to figure out how to make it work". By just accepting it, you avoid the outright rejection that true vulnerability might cause. I get the sense you almost wanted to reject her first so you don't have to deal with being vulnerable and not knowing the next move.

Kind of like that Seinfeld episode where George does the opposite of his instincts. If every instinct you had prior is wrong, maybe the opposite is right.

It's easier to give up on your own terms than not give up and have her reject you with finality. My guess is you have never asked for what you want directly so she has no idea what you want. She views you as someone it could work with but you relay to her that maybe you'll be there, maybe you'll disappear.

Maybe figure out what you want exactly and if it includes her, call her up and tell her exactly...but I also get the feeling you don't know exactly what you want and she is picking up on that.

[glows]

You’ve mentioned you’re dealing with a couple of illnesses and/or deaths in your family while processing the end of a relationship. You’re not expected to have all the answers and a chipper attitude right now. I recommend grief counselling and seek professional support if needed. 

[basil67]

17 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

For the record I did sleep with her.

After sleeping for two hours I have simply just concluded that there is no real solution to my dating problem. I love spending time with her, waking up with her head on my shoulder, my trying to cook a decent meal, shared experiences. I wont find any of those things again, I know what I will find on OLD and its not that.

OK with this new information - and assuming the sex was mutually enjoyable - we can likely rule out sex issues as a problem.   And you did do all the boyfriendy things, except perhaps starting to talk about a future.   But there is absolutely no reason why she couldn't have talked about planning a holiday "next year"  Or wondered aloud about moving in together.   Or perhaps she and you did have these talks, in which case I'm totally stumped.

I'm really starting to change my mind now because I'm struggling to see that you did anything wrong.  Yes she complained right at the end that the relationship wasn't progressing, but had she ever told you prior to this that she wanted more?   Had she ever discussed things she wasn't happy with?   Thing is, if she didn't communicate that she was unfulfilled, how were you to know?   None of us can fix something which we don't know is broken.

 

[ZA Dater]

22 hours ago, ChatroomHero said:

I expect this is your normal response, but you already admit your normal responses make you incompatible.

You say you were vulnerable but I think maybe you weren't really and that is the problem.

When she says, "Better to just be friends", being vulnerable is replying, "No. I want more. I don't accept that. We need to figure out how to make it work". By just accepting it, you avoid the outright rejection that true vulnerability might cause. I get the sense you almost wanted to reject her first so you don't have to deal with being vulnerable and not knowing the next move.

Kind of like that Seinfeld episode where George does the opposite of his instincts. If every instinct you had prior is wrong, maybe the opposite is right.

It's easier to give up on your own terms than not give up and have her reject you with finality. My guess is you have never asked for what you want directly so she has no idea what you want. She views you as someone it could work with but you relay to her that maybe you'll be there, maybe you'll disappear.

Maybe figure out what you want exactly and if it includes her, call her up and tell her exactly...but I also get the feeling you don't know exactly what you want and she is picking up on that.

This post is 95% right.

[NuevoYorko]

On 10/9/2022 at 8:08 AM, ZA Dater said:

Why I want to try again. I purely messed this up based on a lack of experience which I guess just proves that having no experience is a total deal breaker.

You use this as an excuse all the time.

The deal breaker is that you REFUSE to step outside of your comfort zone enough to give something to another person.   

I have a good friend who is on the spectrum.  He is married and they have 2 adult kids.  I like the guy a great deal, we share a very consuming hobby and that's what's behind our friendship.  If it were not for that, though, we would not be friends.  He simply does not know, or really care, to function in that capacity with other people.

From my outsider's perspective, I see that his wife does not only MOST, but ALL of the emotional work in the family.   She also still (after 30 years or something like it) has to coach him to do things that would naturally occur to other people, like help someone who is struggling with a heavy object right in front of him.  He would NEVER offer to help unless he was told to by his wife or asked to by the person struggling. 

The man is basically completely self absorbed.  He's absolutely not mean or angry, but his concept of the reality of other people is quite minuscule.   I'm not sure how his wife has been able to stand it.  Plus he is super idiosyncratic and picky about all kinds of things (food, the feeling of fabrics, he can't stand being in direct sunlight) which have needed to be accommodated for during the whole time his kids were growing up.

Still, they are a family with a lot of love.   The reason?  COUNSELING.  

The counselor tells him what to do, and he does it.  None of these relationship oriented things would ever come naturally to my friend.  EVER.   He has to practice it as if it were a foreign language he was learning, or as if he was learning ballroom dancing with zero natural aptitude for it.

I still don't see how his wife would ever feel fulfilled, because acts of love and caring towards her are never coming straight from his heart.  He would not think of them, and even when he is told, he doesn't feel comfortable doing them.  That must have been tough for her through the years.

BUT.  They are good. THE FACT THAT HE HAS BEEN WILLING TO DO WHAT THE COUNSELOR TELLS HIM TO IN ORDER TO HAVE THE LOVE OF HIS WIFE AND FAMILY IS ENOUGH FOR HER.

As he has continued to practice the relationship behaviors, some of them have become natural to him.  

Also, he is filled with gratitude for what he has, because he never even thought of it as a possibility - being that he didn't have any concept of other people having an interior life and emotions.   But, because he was willing to work on it, he has been able to share his life with his great wife and 2 wonderful kids.

Incidentally, their son is also on the spectrum and he was raised very consciously to help him learn what came naturally to his sibling, his mom, and the majority of other humans.  He is probably going to have an easier time of it than his dad.

Back to you:  If you want your life to look differently than it does right this minute, you will NEED to make a commitment to learning new ways and challenging yourself every day.  This is basically what everyone tells you, year in and year out, on your threads.  I hope some day you will take this advice.  

Edited October 11, 2022 by NuevoYorko

[Calmandfocused]

On 10/9/2022 at 11:02 PM, poppyfields said:

Hi @ZA Dater, just caught up with this thread, good to see you. 

Recalling your previous threads and this one. I think you did hurt her, deeply. 

I think she's been feeling hurt for a very long time but remained with you because she saw something special in you and loved you. 

I sensed that from the very beginning and that if something didn't happen, eventually her hurt would turn to anger and she would leave. 

So now it's happened [ ] She's taking care of herself and her own needs.  [ ] 

Your reaction is interesting.  You say you want to try again? 

You had a year to "make something happen" but chose not to and now that she's gone you want to try again - to make something happen.

Groucho Marx coined the phrase "I wouldn't want to join a club that would have me as its member."

This is what I think is happening with you, at least on some level.

When she wanted you and was accepting of you, dare I say admired you, you felt uncertain, ambivalent, not sure what you wanted or where you wanted things with her to go.

My sense was you may have unconsciously assumed she was deficient in some way merely because she wanted you and loved you.  And because she wanted to join your club! 

Now she wants no part of your club and you want to try again, which again is interesting.

Perhaps her leaving caused you to gain a certain respect for her you never had before?

This is not uncommon, in fact it's quite common and happens a lot! 

The loss of someone sometimes kicks us in the rear and causes us to realize certain feelings/emotions  we weren't able to realize when they were standing right in front of us, so to speak. . 

JMO but I think your hesitation stems from a fear of vulnerability. 

She may have felt this too and unless and until you are willing to step away from your safe emotional comfort zone and allow yourself to feel vulnerable including sexually, perhaps it's best to let this go.

OR you could challenge and push yourself to escape the confines of your own self-imposed safe emotional haven, open yourself up emotionally and give it your best shot, assuming she is open to that. 

Fwiw, I vote for the latter!  I think you deseve that and so does she. 

Poppy I remember you said something in one of ZAs previous threads on this topic. You basically said that the moment this woman leaves ZA he would realise her value. Then it would be too late. I don’t think ZA took a blind bit of notice at the time, but ultimately you were right. 
 

ZA what baffles me is that you actually seem surprised that she’s gone. I’m not sure what you expected to happen? . 
 

We all unanimously told you that at some point she would just give up. No sex and a “half relationship” isn’t something that most women would put up with. 
 

I’m conscious that my “we told you so” position probably doesn’t help you right now. However you do need to learn that ignoring copious amounts of advice has done you no favours. 
 

Again, I’ve no idea what you thought the outcome would be here other than what has happened? 

[BaileyB]

43 minutes ago, Calmandfocused said:

You basically said that the moment this woman leaves ZA he would realise her value. Then it would be too late. I don’t think ZA took a blind bit of notice at the time, but ultimately you were right. 

I don’t know that he has realized her value as much as he has realized what HE has lost. He is still primarily thinking of this experience from his own perspective - what has/could this do for me! 

43 minutes ago, Calmandfocused said:

ZA what baffles me is that you actually seem surprised that she’s gone. I’m not sure what you expected to happen?

We all unanimously told you that at some point she would just give up. No sex and a “half relationship” isn’t something that most women would put up with. 

Yup! 

And, the response is also predictable - a self-deprecating pity party. If the eventual outcome of this relationship is not to ZA’s liking, what he fails to understand is that it was entirely in his control the whole time. 

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by BaileyB

[poppyfields]

2 hours ago, BaileyB said:

I don’t know that he has realized her value as much as he has realized what HE has lost. He is still primarily thinking of this experience from his own perspective - what has/could this do for me! 

I view those two things - realizing her value and realizing what he has lost - as the same thing. 

He now realizes what her value was to him and his life.  What she and their relationship brought to his life.

He said as much at least that's my interpretation.

The way he speaks of her now that's its over, like he's lost the best thing he's ever had, and the way he spoke of her and their relationship while he was actually in it (ambivalent and uncertain), seem like two entirely different people and experiences. 

Apologies to @ZA Daterfor speaking about you in the third person. 

Please correct me if I'm off about this.  Just my take. 

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by poppyfields